Random, Random 2.0

[Suliso]

I'd be interested to know how we (I mean people reporting them) define mental health issues. Has that changed over the years? Did it actually go up from 25% before covid to 42% now or does that reflect differences between UK and USA?

This from a guy who has never met any psychologists etc., not even in a social setting...

[mmmm8]

I'd be interested to know how we (I mean people reporting them) define mental health issues. Has that changed over the years? Did it actually go up from 25% before covid to 42% now or does that reflect differences between UK and USA?

This from a guy who has never met any psychologists etc., not even in a social setting...

I think COVID showed a REAL spike. I can tell you that just from my job where I had clients start telling me about their own mental health issues or their employee coming to HR with mental health issues.

But over the years, yes, I think the self-reporting changed. People are more open about mental health issues and not "embarrassed" to report them AND are more aware and can recognize them.

That's why you have such high numbers in a country like the UK, but when you go to some Asian countries where mental illness (and, often, illness in general) is stigmatized, the self-reporting is much lower. You also see higher numbers reported by younger people.

It's interesting that you haven't met therapists because there's a global shortage of mental health professionals!

(But you didn't have a mental health evaluation in school as a kid? we had a mandatory one around 5th or 6th grade in Russia)

[ponchi101]

...

I think the mental health profession has largely moved on considerably from Freud, at least in terms of where the analysis leads, if not some of the tactics of talk therapy

Moreover, unlike homeopathy, there are clear, well-documented strong positive results from therapy.

In some parts of the world. The two countries where I see more of this, Vennieland and Argentina, have devoted Freudians and Jungians. That is the sort of methodology that I find dubious, precisely because some new techniques are available.
As I just violated the rules of this forum and hijacked this topic. And I am serious here.
What are mental issues? I will give a personal example of something that I think is NOT one. I am going through a very rough time with the unemployment thing. It really is looking worse and worse. That is creating a lot of anguish, and by now I am showing some signs. My sleeping pattern is all out of whack, I am a bit more irritable, I am not feeling well. But, to me, that is NOT a mental issue; there is a verifiable reason, and I believe a valid one, why I am feeling this way. I have no work, and it is not a personal thing, it is my entire industry fading away (CC issues will do us in soon enough). So I wonder, what are mental issues? Are this, by definition, unstable feelings for which there are NO signs of origin?
I know I am the worrying, pessimistic kind, but if there are REAL reasons, I ask myself: is it a health issue? I say no; there is a tractable line of why the feelings are there. So, my question is serious: is there a definition of what a mental issue is? Or, as when people joke, is it just a rich lady that claims depression because her collection of hats got lost in transit?

EDIT. I did not see Suliso's post, basically asking the same question. My apologies.

[Suliso]

It's interesting that you haven't met therapists because there's a global shortage of mental health professionals!

(But you didn't have a mental health evaluation in school as a kid? we had a mandatory one around 5th or 6th grade in Russia)

I don't think so. Or at least I don't remember...

[dryrunguy]

In the U.S. federal government, there are two agencies within the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services dedicated to mental health and mental illness--the National Institute of Mental Health (part of the National Institutes of Health [NIH] and is focused on biomedical research on mental illness) and the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration (SAMHSA), which focused on public sector mental health and substance use/misuse service systems.

Both have definitions of mental illness (which would include "mental health issues") that largely overlap. Here is the text from the SAMHSA website:

Mental health and substance use disorders affect people from all walks of life and all age groups. These illnesses are common, recurrent, and often serious, but they are treatable and many people do recover. Mental disorders involve changes in thinking, mood, and/or behavior. These disorders can affect how we relate to others and make choices. Reaching a level that can be formally diagnosed often depends on a reduction in a person’s ability to function as a result of the disorder. For example:

--Serious mental illness is defined by someone over 18 having (within the past year) a diagnosable mental, behavior, or emotional disorder that causes serious functional impairment that substantially interferes with or limits one or more major life activities.
--For people under the age of 18, the term “Serious Emotional Disturbance” refers to a diagnosable mental, behavioral, or emotional disorder in the past year, which resulted in functional impairment that substantially interferes with or limits the child’s role or functioning in family, school, or community activities.
--Substance use disorders occur when the recurrent use of alcohol and/or drugs causes clinically significant impairment, including health problems, disability, and failure to meet major responsibilities at work, school, or home.

The coexistence of both a mental health and a substance use disorder is referred to as co-occurring disorders. The National Institute for Mental Health’s Mental Health Information page has information about specific conditions and disorders as well as their symptoms.

https://www.samhsa.gov/find-help/disorders

[JazzNU]

What are mental issues? I will give a personal example of something that I think is NOT one. I am going through a very rough time with the unemployment thing. It really is looking worse and worse. That is creating a lot of anguish, and by now I am showing some signs. My sleeping pattern is all out of whack, I am a bit more irritable, I am not feeling well. But, to me, that is NOT a mental issue; there is a verifiable reason, and I believe a valid one, why I am feeling this way. I have no work, and it is not a personal thing, it is my entire industry fading away (CC issues will do us in soon enough). So I wonder, what are mental issues? Are this, by definition, unstable feelings for which there are NO signs of origin?
I know I am the worrying, pessimistic kind, but if there are REAL reasons, I ask myself: is it a health issue? I say no; there is a tractable line of why the feelings are there. So, my question is serious: is there a definition of what a mental issue is? Or, as when people joke, is it just a rich lady that claims depression because her collection of hats got lost in transit?

Just trying to keep up here. Do you feel that if there's a verifiable reason to explain certain feelings you are having that they are not a mental health issue? Here's another example to consider if your own is too difficult to evaluate more objectively for this discussion. If a woman is pregnant and miscarries. Would you then consider the depression she experiences after the miscarriage not what you would classify as a mental health issue because the reasons for being depressed are easily traced? If so, how do you typically view and classify these feelings and struggles?

[dryrunguy]

Now, regarding Ponchi's scenario...

What you describe probably does not meet diagnostic criteria for a mental disorder. What a mental health professional would do is probably talk to you about your situation and then ask you a series of questions about how those feelings have affected your behavior and your daily functioning. Sleep habits, mood, etc., would almost certainly fit in there somewhere. But to get a diagnosis, depending on the diagnostic instrument used, you have to meet a certain number of criteria based on the number of measures included in the instrument (e.g., 5 of 10, or 7 of 10, etc.). A mental health professional also may use additional diagnostic instruments for diagnosing other disorders.

It doesn't sound to me like you need to run to a mental health professional.

But there would be nothing wrong if you did.

The most important thing is that you're asking the question. It speaks a lot that you're even aware of how this ongoing challenge has affected you. The awareness of that alone will help you to keep monitoring it over time, especially if you start to notice other things happening in your life, e.g., a change in eating habits or appetite, self-medicating, loss of pleasure in things you once enjoyed, etc.

A lot of people seek out a mental health professional when they probably don't really need it. And yes, some less-than-reputable mental health professionals will manufacture a diagnoses to get your health insurance reimbursements and co-pays.

The bigger concern is when someone needs help, especially a child, but people don't seek help. "Not my child!" And the reason why that is so critically important when it comes to kids is the strong relationship between the onset of a serious emotional disturbance and the increased risk for the onset of a subsequent substance use disorder. A study of adolescents completed by the University of Michigan back in the 1990s found that, among adolescents with a substance use disorder, an undiagnosed serious emotional disturbance preceded the substance use disorder by about 5 years.

And then there's the issue of stigma. National prevalence data clearly show that mental disorders are far more prevalent among women than men. That's not because women are more at risk of developing a mental disorder; that's the product of men refusing to get help because of stigma, skewed views of masculinity, etc. Data also show that racial and ethnic minorities are significantly less likely to seek help than their white counterparts. (And there are some good reasons for that, too. Among children and adolescents, for example, white kids back in the day were more likely to get certain types of "soft" diagnoses while Black and Latino kids more typically got slapped with a conduct disorder diagnosis.)

It's complicated stuff. But I'm really glad we're talking about it and that folks are asking questions. Because far too many people in positions of influence are quick to hear someone's problem and jump to, "Oh, you need Jesus!" or "Dude, you just need to 'man up'".

[JazzNU]

But over the years, yes, I think the self-reporting changed. People are more open about mental health issues and not "embarrassed" to report them AND are more aware and can recognize them.

That's why you have such high numbers in a country like the UK, but when you go to some Asian countries where mental illness (and, often, illness in general) is stigmatized, the self-reporting is much lower. You also see higher numbers reported by younger people.

Just to add to this, in the US, there's been a concerted effort to get men to be more open to identifying and being willing to get help for their mental health problems. We have identifiable issues, the number of daily suicides among service members and/or veterans, alcoholism and drug addiction in men, suicide and depression being a higher cause of death, the mass shooters being mostly young men. So there's just an overall effort to address toxic masculinity. Are there always mental health issues playing a part to all of this? No. But many times, yes.

[ponchi101]

...

Just trying to keep up here. Do you feel that if there's a verifiable reason to explain certain feelings you are having that they are not a mental health issue? Here's another example to consider if your own is too difficult to evaluate more objectively for this discussion. If a woman is pregnant and miscarries. Would you then consider the depression she experiences after the miscarriage not what you would classify as a mental health issue because the reasons for being depressed are easily traced? If so, how do you typically view and classify these feelings and struggles?

You mention one very good example against my opinion. I would not deny that a woman going through that scenario AND developing depression is justifiable, but that is because the event is NOT totally reasonable. Every parent (and here I would include the father) expects a pregnancy to reach a happy conclusion, and the expected "return" (a child) is too precious for its "non arrival" to be taken lightly. That case is indeed exceptional.
(And please, understand that I feel I am at the limit of vocabulary. I know that my phrasing sounds rather mercantilistic, which is not appropriate. But I am at a loss for proper words).
But, for example. The death of an elderly parent is very painful. But, IF ELDERLY, that is the normal flow of life. SADNESS is obviously expected and reasonable, but DEPRESSION is something that could be questioned and perhaps would not need therapy (loving support, indeed).

@Dry. Thanks for the definitions. Gotta think about them.

[JazzNU]

So, is it more about having a quality of the unexpected to you? That an unexpected life occurrence is different than a more customary or expected one? You mention that therapy for depression after the loss of a parent when elderly being called into question. Do you consider the same of a parent that loses a child? Or is that like the pregnancy to you, where parents always expect to outlive their kids so depression after the loss of one is a more exceptional case?

And serious question here @Ponchi. Have you ever taken a step back to consider that you are exceptionally mentally strong and can deal with life's struggles better and healthier than others?


And by the way, we've told you a million times how exceptional your English is, but to be clear, you're not remotely at the limit of your vocabulary, when you casually slide in mercantilistic in the next sentence!

[Deuce]

I'd be interested to know how we (I mean people reporting them) define mental health issues. Has that changed over the years? Did it actually go up from 25% before covid to 42% now or does that reflect differences between UK and USA?

This from a guy who has never met any psychologists etc., not even in a social setting...

I don't think that anyone can honestly deny that the definition of what constitutes a 'mental health issue' has significantly widened and broadened over the last 30 years or so.
Think of all of the children diagnosed with 'ADD' and 'ADHD' over that period (here in North America, at least) - the great majority of whom are prescribed pills -, as just one example of this.

That the broader, more all-encompassing definition also puts more money in the pockets of those working in the mental health profession is not at all a co-incidence in my view. The more people who are classified as 'sick' to some degree, the more business it creates...

[ponchi101]

So, is it more about having a quality of the unexpected to you? That an unexpected life occurrence is different than a more customary or expected one? You mention that therapy for depression after the loss of a parent when elderly being called into question. Do you consider the same of a parent that loses a child? Or is that like the pregnancy to you, where parents always expect to outlive their kids so depression after the loss of one is a more exceptional case?

And serious question here @Ponchi. Have you ever taken a step back to consider that you are exceptionally mentally strong and can deal with life's struggles better and healthier than others?


And by the way, we've told you a million times how exceptional your English is, but to be clear, you're not remotely at the limit of your vocabulary, when you casually slide in mercantilistic in the next sentence!

Believe me. You know me via a medium in which I enjoy vert much an interaction. Were this to be live, mentally strong would never be a quality that you would assign me.
Remember that I said, earlier in the topic, that I do not like to use myself (or single anecdotes) as examples. It is bad statistics. So, even if I were to really be strong, I clearly understand that that sample of one is not proper. Which is the reason I am asking. Were I one of those people that are always, invariably right, I would have made up my mind on this subject, issue my dictum, and disregard anybody else's opinion.
But, coming back to my original question. My doubt comes from that opinion that, even if memories are faulty, the therapy is worth it. I am not doubting that people may have issues, individually, but I wonder if these processes of therapy are the correct ones. Obviously, processes in the past (usually tied to religious ritual such as confession and penance) were not satisfying either, but if a process which cannot tell whether the source of the mental health issue is factual, I have doubts about it.
You again bring forth another extreme example which, I don't think, can be denied is one of the most tragic events in the lives of people: the death of a child. The anguish and pain are real and undeniable*, but I wonder what can therapy really achieve ** in a situation such as that.

Off Topic

* In modern times perhaps more than in the past, now that it is common, in advanced societies, for child mortality to be low.
** I am assuming we are excluding cases such as as those in which perhaps the death of said child could be due to actions by the parents. Or lack of .

[Deuce]

I've always felt that a good, sincere friend can help more than any therapist - because the sincere friend's caring is genuine, and not conditional upon being paid money, not restricted to 45 minutes per week, etc., etc.

For those who lack such a friend in their life, perhaps a therapist might be able to help. But only if a good one is chosen, of course - and that's often a crapshoot.

[dryrunguy]

Ponchi, I should have a fairly easy work week this week. I plan to do some reading up on this "false memories" thing from the most reputable sources I can find. The only orientation I have to the matter is an old episode of Law & Order SVU, and that does NOT provide an appropriate understanding of such a serious matter.

I will do some reading and report back. Because I know this really concerns you. And I am quite curious. Please stay tuned.

[JazzNU]

But, coming back to my original question. My doubt comes from that opinion that, even if memories are faulty, the therapy is worth it. I am not doubting that people may have issues, individually, but I wonder if these processes of therapy are the correct ones. Obviously, processes in the past (usually tied to religious ritual such as confession and penance) were not satisfying either, but if a process which cannot tell whether the source of the mental health issue is factual, I have doubts about it.

So, I don't quite grasp this false memories issue you've mentioned. Is this like an intentional thing, something that the person has built up in their mind past the point of what really happened? Are they aware of it or not? And where or in what instance is this is common problem? Lying in therapy is fairly common, but it doesn't sound like that's what you're talking about.

It sounded to me like the example you brought up with your sister was less about a false memory and more about something specific she remembered from childhood and something you had no memory of, not had a conflicting memory of or knew to be certainly false. Am I understanding that right?

But I will say that regardless of the clarity of a childhood memory, if it is a point of depression, stress, anxiety, etc, it would seem like it's a good thing to talk to a professional to try to work through it and move past it as best as you can.

I think it's very problematic when people make up or exaggerate experiences that have consequences for others. But if it's just about you trying to better yourself, then speaking to a mental health professional doesn't seem like it'll do anything but potentially help. It may even get you called out for the exaggeration and why they felt the need to go there.