ponchi101 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2024 10:25 pm
How about the people that are not at the extremes? The people that want guns, but regulated? The people that accept abortion, but not after the second trimester? The people Bill Maher calls "The Normies".
Not everybody is extreme. Those are the ones you could group around an agenda. The ones that are for ethical treatment of animals, but enjoy their BBQ on Sundays.
Are these the same people as these mysterious "undecided" voters in the U.S.? Seems like there could be some similarities. Are there enough of them? I'm not sure, but it's possible they could siphon enough votes from the two major parties to be a force.
(Sidebar: How anyone with two functioning brain cells could be undecided or pro-Trump is a bit beyond me. I know I say this every 4 years, but for pete's sake....)
Last edited by dryrunguy on Sun Sep 22, 2024 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Agree about the undecided. How come they can be undecided is baffling.
But a lot of people decided to vote AGAINST Trump a long time ago. It is not as if Kamala is the most super duper candidate in history. For example, you would have voted against Trump regardless of who the Dem candidate would have been.
Given a third option, somebody sucking voters both from the dems and the reps, you could see a third party making a run.
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2024 11:37 pm
Agree about the undecided. How come they can be undecided is baffling.
But a lot of people decided to vote AGAINST Trump a long time ago. It is not as if Kamala is the most super duper candidate in history. For example, you would have voted against Trump regardless of who the Dem candidate would have been.
Given a third option, somebody sucking voters both from the dems and the reps, you could see a third party making a run.
One of the biggest lessons of the Trump-era is a greater understanding that a large proportion of the electorate is not paying attention to current events.
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2024 10:25 pm
How about the people that are not at the extremes? The people that want guns, but regulated? The people that accept abortion, but not after the second trimester? The people Bill Maher calls "The Normies".
Not everybody is extreme. Those are the ones you could group around an agenda. The ones that are for ethical treatment of animals, but enjoy their BBQ on Sundays.
Nice! The 'normal' party! Would be a great name...
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2024 11:37 pm
Agree about the undecided. How come they can be undecided is baffling.
But a lot of people decided to vote AGAINST Trump a long time ago. It is not as if Kamala is the most super duper candidate in history. For example, you would have voted against Trump regardless of who the Dem candidate would have been.
Given a third option, somebody sucking voters both from the dems and the reps, you could see a third party making a run.
One of the biggest lessons of the Trump-era is a greater understanding that a large proportion of the electorate is not paying attention to current events.
I will argue that this is because they don't understand how government works and the role that citizens are supposed to play as laid out in the US Constitution.
Two things happened: Schools stopped teaching civics as the emphasis shifted from teaching critical thinking to high test scores that would lead to college and a better life.
The other thing that happened was the rise of home schooling using curriculums created by fundamentalists and the right wing that was taught by stay at home mothers.
I'm going to say this last phenomenon is found heavily in the states of the Old Confederacy/Red States and has resulted in the warped ideas surrounding Christianity making it hard to make the argument about the original intention of the men who wrote the US Constitution that there is supposed to be a separation of church and state. The rise of social media incentives - I know this from personal experience because one of my cousins is being paid to promote virulently anti trans views on Xitter while her own brother lived with a trans woman for years until his partners death - makes this even worse. There's talk that the post that made it seem that Janet Jackson took back her idiotic statement about the Vice President had to be withdrawn because Jackson is looking for a payday from MAGA.
In this environment, with people unable to tell they're being lied to by people with an agenda how how can they pay attention? They understand the price of things is higher but not the reasons why. I don't think there's a quick solution to this problem.
“Do not grow old, no matter how long you live. Never cease to stand like curious children before the Great Mystery into which we were born.” Albert Einstein
I will argue that this is because they don't understand how government works and the role that citizens are supposed to play as laid out in the US Constitution.
Two things happened: Schools stopped teaching civics as the emphasis shifted from teaching critical thinking to high test scores that would lead to college and a better life.
The other thing that happened was the rise of home schooling using curriculums created by fundamentalists and the right wing that was taught by stay at home mothers.
I'm going to say this last phenomenon is found heavily in the states of the Old Confederacy/Red States and has resulted in the warped ideas surrounding Christianity making it hard to make the argument about the original intention of the men who wrote the US Constitution that there is supposed to be a separation of church and state. The rise of social media incentives - I know this from personal experience because one of my cousins is being paid to promote virulently anti trans views on Xitter while her own brother lived with a trans woman for years until his partners death - makes this even worse. There's talk that the post that made it seem that Janet Jackson took back her idiotic statement about the Vice President had to be withdrawn because Jackson is looking for a payday from MAGA.
In this environment, with people unable to tell they're being lied to by people with an agenda how how can they pay attention? They understand the price of things is higher but not the reasons why. I don't think there's a quick solution to this problem.
You are tiptoeing so close to NaziPonchi's idea that universal voting is not the way.
After all, my country voted itself into a dictatorship. It can happen again.
Now that JD is talking about health insurance again..it is worth recalling that ANY viable nationwide plan must necessarily rest on 3 pillars-
1. Compulsory purchase of insurance by the healthy, who dont need it (as of the moment)
2. Compulsory coverage of all, with no discrimination allowed based on previous history
3. Subsidies for those who cannot afford the insurance
Whatever anyone proposes has to be resting on these pillars, there is no other way. Which is why Trump cannot propose anything radically different from Obamacare.
The really radical option would be national health care, like the NHS in the UK..but that would destroy the medical infrastructure and anyway would be politically unviable in the US.
But this is only about insurance! The real problem is healthcare costs are too high.
Again, the underlying reasons are -
As Christensen pointed out, the US medical set up is inefficient because it mixes up 3 business models and tries to run them under the same roof, making all of them inefficient.
Next, US medical practices are absurdly defensive, prescribing all kinds of tests before any care is actually provided - because of the fear of lawsuits
Finally, the AMA acts as a cartel, preventing doctors and nurses from other countries, from practicing in the US.
Until these root causes are dealt with, healthcare will always be ridiculously expensive in the US.
Last edited by ashkor87 on Mon Sep 23, 2024 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just for completeness, the 3 business models are
1. Expert diagnosis and treatment
2. Routine repeatable operations like hip replacement, cataract operations etc.
3. Long- term support for diseases like cancer.
All 3 require completely different processes.
ashkor87 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 2:37 pm
...
Next, US medical practices are absurdly defensive, prescribing all kinds of tests before any care is actually provided - because of the fear of lawsuits
...
And then they prescribe medicines with no regards to the consequences (the opioid crisis).
ashkor87 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 2:37 pm
Next, US medical practices are absurdly defensive, prescribing all kinds of tests before any care is actually provided - because of the fear of lawsuits
Translation
