The Goat Debate

[ashkor87]

Is it true that "Pancho" Gonzalez also perfected the serve and volley now technique so many in the US are in love with? I would say he invented it but I'm not good on tennis history especially back then.

I don't know if he perfected the S&V game, but he was one of the first players to play the American power game of that era, together with Kramer. Serve and volley, attack the net at any opportunity. In the distant past now. I also always wondered why it was called the Big Game, and why it was tied to Americans. Not like Laver, Rosewall, Newcombe and all the other Aussies were not practicing it too.

The power game is attributed nowadays to Althea Gibson, I think...
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[ashkor87]

But Kramer already played that way, early 50s..maybe that is why Americans are generally credited with it

[ashkor87]

Doubles is also tennis..I always rate Nadal and Murray a bit higher than their singles performances would warrant, because they are both great doubles players too..McEnroe certainly, higher than his contemporaries..not sure about Federer...

[ponchi101]

The sole reason I usually do not include doubles is that, for example, that makes the GOAT for women's clear cut. It is Navratilova and nobody else comes close, IF YOU INCLUDE DOUBLES.
Also, since most single players no longer engage in doubles regularly, it makes it hard to gauge. We saw it at the (2008?) Olympics, when Stan and Roger won the gold over all the other doubles specialists, and again in Rio, when Rafa won it with Marc Lopez. The singles guys, if they were committed to that side of the sport, would clean it up.
McEnroe would certainly climb up the rankings, as would Edberg (a great doubles team with Jarryd).

[ashkor87]

The sole reason I usually do not include doubles is that, for example, that makes the GOAT for women's clear cut. It is Navratilova and nobody else comes close, IF YOU INCLUDE DOUBLES.
Also, since most single players no longer engage in doubles regularly, it makes it hard to gauge. We saw it at the (2008?) Olympics, when Stan and Roger won the gold over all the other doubles specialists, and again in Rio, when Rafa won it with Marc Lopez. The singles guys, if they were committed to that side of the sport, would clean it up.
McEnroe would certainly climb up the rankings, as would Edberg (a great doubles team with Jarryd).

Hingis probably among the women..

But the fact is, it is a dimension not to be ignored .the GOAT debate is murky anyway, why not make it more so?! Give extra credit for doubles, maybe...they do consider it for HOF so why not this!

[ponchi101]

Ok, Ashkor. IF you include doubles, who are the GOAT's in both tours?
For the WTA, I find it easy: Navratilova. No contest, the records in double are nowhere near to anybody else. And then, in second, you have to give it to Court.
But for the men. No idea. Roger, Rafa and Novak have such pale doubles records that it changes little to me. McEnroe and Laver are, to me, the greatest doubles players ever, but not enough to pass the other three. So, who would you say are the GOAT's if doubles are included?

[ashkor87]

Hmm...good question, putting me on the spot eh? Navratilova and Nadal, then..

[mick1303]

I didn't even try to factor in doubles. Entirely different sport to me. How are you going to factor in doubles results? Numerically, I mean. What is the weight of doubles slam comparing to singles? Purely the matter of opinion.

[ponchi101]

Hmm...good question, putting me on the spot eh? Navratilova and Nadal, then..

I didn't put you on the spot! In the other topic you said doubles should be counted as part of the GOAT's debate, I was only then asking.
Ok, we agree on Navs. But Nadal? Data say: 0 Slam doubles, 10 tour titles, one Olympic doubles. I gather you are saying that his doubles performance puts him ABOVE Roger and Novak, but I may be reading you wrong.

[ashkor87]

Hmm...good question, putting me on the spot eh? Navratilova and Nadal, then..

I didn't put you on the spot! In the other topic you said doubles should be counted as part of the GOAT's debate, I was only then asking.
Ok, we agree on Navs. But Nadal? Data say: 0 Slam doubles, 10 tour titles, one Olympic doubles. I gather you are saying that his doubles performance puts him ABOVE Roger and Novak, but I may be reading you wrong.

yes, more or less..
hard to compare across eras, also Laver had a great partner in Emerson - Nadal had only Marco Lopez mostly...

[ponchi101]

Yes. That was the time in which ALL players played both games. The Aussies were all great at doubles: Laver, Emerson, Rosewall, Newcombe, Stolle, etc. The Americans too: Smith comes to mind. Connors may have been the first guy to eschew doubles, then Borg. Pretty soon, it stopped being important for those guys.

[ashkor87]

Yes. That was the time in which ALL players played both games. The Aussies were all great at doubles: Laver, Emerson, Rosewall, Newcombe, Stolle, etc. The Americans too: Smith comes to mind. Connors may have been the first guy to eschew doubles, then Borg. Pretty soon, it stopped being important for those guys.

Yes, and we are all the poorer for it...

[mick1303]

There is another problem with doubles - collecting the results. I've just looked up ATP site - they have doubles for Grand Slams since year 2000 and for other tournaments - since 2001. While it is a big piece of data and it would be interesting to collect, it will not help with broad comparison, because a lot of greats were competing before that. As far as WTA concerned - forget about it. I'm glad that I collected the data that I have on singles, while ITF had them on the web. Once ITF closed this from the general audience, there is no source of data at all. WTA website is just pathetic.

[ponchi101]

You are the expert in that area, but I see that as a technical problem. For example, for the top "usual suspects" in the WTA, their doubles records are easy to find: Court, Evert, Navratilova, Steffi and Serena's data is out there. But if you include doubles, then BJK becomes a new factor. I would never include her as a possible ON COURT Goat candidate, but if you include her doubles, then she may challenge Evert.
And, if you include doubles, do you go for Mixed Doubles too? Then Court Vs Navs becomes even more complicated to gauge, but you have to consider who they played their mixed with.
I would not mind the GOAT in doubles talk, but it would be a separate topic. For example, if you talk doubles, it is very hard NOT to mention the Bryan Brothers. Who are nowhere near the GOAT conversation in singles, of course.

[mick1303]

You are the expert in that area, but I see that as a technical problem. For example, for the top "usual suspects" in the WTA, their doubles records are easy to find: Court, Evert, Navratilova, Steffi and Serena's data is out there. But if you include doubles, then BJK becomes a new factor. I would never include her as a possible ON COURT Goat candidate, but if you include her doubles, then she may challenge Evert.
And, if you include doubles, do you go for Mixed Doubles too? Then Court Vs Navs becomes even more complicated to gauge, but you have to consider who they played their mixed with.
I would not mind the GOAT in doubles talk, but it would be a separate topic. For example, if you talk doubles, it is very hard NOT to mention the Bryan Brothers. Who are nowhere near the GOAT conversation in singles, of course.

Collecting a significant portion of doubles matches (enough to start making educated comparisons) will take a lot of time. Given that I do this in my spare time and I have a day job - don't hold your breath. It will be years... So far I'm only developing a parser to import doubles from ATP site. One tournament at a time. I'm not that advanced to import it all at once...