Russian Invasion of Ukraine

[dmforever]

They are all European. I don't think it's contradictory to say that while of course racism is a factor, there is also a greater sense of unity and shared sense of responsibility within European countries, and with Ukraine's bid to join the EU that reinforces the bond.

There is also a fear of Putin moving against other countries that wasn't a factor with Syrian refugees.

Ahh, yes. "European"

To be clear, my thumbs up was just for the post and the sentiment. The actual content is nauseating. I had seen something like this but with fewer videos. They are all blatant, but for whatever reason the last one was just especially nauseating. We as a species have made so very very very little progress.

Kevin

[ti-amie]

[ponchi101]

...

To be clear, my thumbs up was just for the post and the sentiment. The actual content is nauseating. I had seen something like this but with fewer videos. They are all blatant, but for whatever reason the last one was just especially nauseating. We as a species have made so very very very little progress.

Kevin

We as a species have made TREMENDOUS progress. One hundred years ago, the subject would not have even been discussed because it was a defacto truth that some people were inferior to others. One hundred years ago, no women would be in this forum (if cyber space had existed) daring to even contradict the opinions of us men because, most likely, their husbands would have not allowed it. 100 years ago, the simplest concept of RACISM as a social phenomenon that is clearly negative and sick was simply not even thinkable.
Yes, you can see it as nauseating. But 100 years ago, the subject would not have even been debated in a little, obscure cyber saloon because there would have been no disagreement on any of the opinions posted.
I know it infuriates you (and others, of course). But I would say that as sickening as it is, historically progress has been made. Sure, it is very sad that there is still so much road left ahead, but we are not at the first step.

[dmforever]

...

To be clear, my thumbs up was just for the post and the sentiment. The actual content is nauseating. I had seen something like this but with fewer videos. They are all blatant, but for whatever reason the last one was just especially nauseating. We as a species have made so very very very little progress.

Kevin

We as a species have made TREMENDOUS progress. One hundred years ago, the subject would not have even been discussed because it was a defacto truth that some people were inferior to others. One hundred years ago, no women would be in this forum (if cyber space had existed) daring to even contradict the opinions of us men because, most likely, their husbands would have not allowed it. 100 years ago, the simplest concept of RACISM as a social phenomenon that is clearly negative and sick was simply not even thinkable.
Yes, you can see it as nauseating. But 100 years ago, the subject would not have even been debated in a little, obscure cyber saloon because there would have been no disagreement on any of the opinions posted.
I know it infuriates you (and others, of course). But I would say that as sickening as it is, historically progress has been made. Sure, it is very sad that there is still so much road left ahead, but we are not at the first step.

So I'm going to have to push back here a little on this one.

You are correct in what you wrote. And I would counter that given that we might just blow ourselves into oblivion, and given that so many women are still victims of physical, psychological, and emotional violence, and given that so many people are still victims of violent racism, and given that violence against LGBTQ (which didn't make your list) folks is on the rise worldwide, and given that antisemitism and xenophobia are on the rise worldwide, and that Islamophobia is rampant worldwide, we have not made tremendous progress. And actually, I think that that viewpoint can only come from someone who hasn't been a victim of any of these things. Would a trans person from Syria whose family wants to kill them so they flee to Turkey, only to have the crap beaten out of them there, and then be threatened by the police, think that tremendous progress has been made. I doubt it. Would a woman who gets stalked by her ex, and then reports it to the police, who don't take her seriously, and say (expletive) about her after she leaves the station, and then gets beaten up by that ex, say that tremendous progress has been made? I doubt it. Would the millions of people worldwide that suffer from malnutrition, and die from diseases caused by parasites, say that tremendous progress has been made? I doubt it.

Just so you know, it wasn't easy for me to write this. You have created this space for us, and have been an amazingly fair moderator. I don't want to offend you. But I personally would feel super privileged to say that we have made good, let alone tremendous, progress. We have made progress, but by couching that in positive terms, for me, it feels like it puts a good spin on everything, and that's just not the experience for so many people in the world.

Perhaps fundamentally we agree on a lot, but just not the conclusion.

With respect.

Kevin

[ponchi101]

Indeed.
My point is this. I know that things look very bleak at times. I know that all your examples are factual. But I also have my personal crusade that we no longer live in the 18th century.
We are not in disagreement. You talk about the "many": the many women that suffer under oppression, the many LGBTQ people that are routinely beaten up, or to death. But in a short historical span, we have reached "many", when in the past it was "all"; all women were oppressed, all LGBTQ people were sentenced to cruel punishments, to the point of death (Alan Turing in the UK as recently as the 1950's).
We are living in very trying times; two years of this pandemic, now this vicious, ridiculous but potentially catastrophic war. It is so easy to say we are animals, we are filth, we deserve our imminent extinction. I say no. Yes, we have problems, but hopefully, at this moment (and I mean 2022), we are in a trough from which we will come out.
I know it sounds ridiculous that it is ME SAYING THAT THINGS ARE BETTER THAN IN THE PAST. Feel free to laugh because I know some people are about to call the doctors and ask for the cold water hose and the 10-feet long sleeves jacket. I deserve that. But think about this: here you are, in a forum where plenty of members are open about their sexuality (just an example) and nobody cares about that. It says a little.

Last. You don't have to sign with respect. You have never been anything but.
And. Don't be so sure that I have not been subject to some sorts of discrimination. I am the citizen of a dictatorship, and I went to college in Florida, being latin-american. One or two state troopers were not as elegant as one would like

[JazzNU]

Yes, it's shocking that you are being positive about progress @ponchi.

We can relate Kevin's point to this conflict very easily. At this very moment, black and brown people who have been living in Ukraine are having consistent, verified trouble crossing the border because of racist treatment where Ukrainian guards are physically pulling them from trains and putting them to the back of the line to cross the border. I highly doubt those people are feeling like there's been substantial progress and we're at a different place in 2022 than the stories they've heard from 50-75 years ago.

Yes, we've most definitely made progress. I'm not sure why the 18th century and 100 years were picked as a reference points, but certainly a lot since those times. But the progress is nowhere near where it should be, it isn't the same worldwide, and definitely nowhere near as much progress as is claimed, especially by those who rarely actually experience discrimination of this kind.

And while I don't think it's bad to reference progress made during a difficult time, it needs to be done carefully. There needs to be real acknowledgement of racism and discrimination that is occurring in real time and not add qualifiers to it. There seems to be a need by way too many, too often, to diminish or dismiss racism and discrimination. Not well it's bad that's happening to those people, BUT...No, it's just awful. Full stop. And we need to do better. Full stop.

Note: for the record, I don't think you did this @ponchi, I'm speaking generally.

[JazzNU]

Just so you know, it wasn't easy for me to write this. You have created this space for us, and have been an amazingly fair moderator. I don't want to offend you. But I personally would feel super privileged to say that we have made good, let alone tremendous, progress. We have made progress, but by couching that in positive terms, for me, it feels like it puts a good spin on everything, and that's just not the experience for so many people in the world.

Perhaps fundamentally we agree on a lot, but just not the conclusion.

With respect.

Kevin

It's difficult every time to put yourself out there and write something like this. I'm glad and grateful you did.

[JazzNU]

[dmforever]

Indeed.
My point is this. I know that things look very bleak at times. I know that all your examples are factual. But I also have my personal crusade that we no longer live in the 18th century.
We are not in disagreement. You talk about the "many": the many women that suffer under oppression, the many LGBTQ people that are routinely beaten up, or to death. But in a short historical span, we have reached "many", when in the past it was "all"; all women were oppressed, all LGBTQ people were sentenced to cruel punishments, to the point of death (Alan Turing in the UK as recently as the 1950's).
We are living in very trying times; two years of this pandemic, now this vicious, ridiculous but potentially catastrophic war. It is so easy to say we are animals, we are filth, we deserve our imminent extinction. I say no. Yes, we have problems, but hopefully, at this moment (and I mean 2022), we are in a trough from which we will come out.
I know it sounds ridiculous that it is ME SAYING THAT THINGS ARE BETTER THAN IN THE PAST. Feel free to laugh because I know some people are about to call the doctors and ask for the cold water hose and the 10-feet long sleeves jacket. I deserve that. But think about this: here you are, in a forum where plenty of members are open about their sexuality (just an example) and nobody cares about that. It says a little.

Last. You don't have to sign with respect. You have never been anything but.
And. Don't be so sure that I have not been subject to some sorts of discrimination. I am the citizen of a dictatorship, and I went to college in Florida, being latin-american. One or two state troopers were not as elegant as one would like

OK just to follow up...
First, I hope I didn't say or imply that you hadn't been discriminated against. Just knowing that you are Latino/Latinx (I"m not sure what word you would most like me to use) and you have spent time in the US is enough for me to assume that you have been. I tried to make my statement of privilege only about myself.

I have a different perspective than you about people here not caring about people's sexual orientation. But I do agree that it's much more open than 100 years ago.

We do not live in the 18th Century. There, I said it. But for me, saying that we have progressed is obvious. Yes, we have progressed. But as Jazz has said, it's not nearly enough. To me it feels like some this argument is used to mitigate what happens so often to so many people. For me, the analogy is like going to a march for cancer and telling people that treatments have gotten so much better and people live so much longer, both of which are true. But it's not the point. That might not be your point, but it often reads that way.

One of the reasons I said that as well kind of refutes that we aren't living in the 18th century (or even AD) is the news reports about how Ukrainian refugees are different from African and Middle Eastern refugees. Those comments seem very very tribal to me. (And by tribal, I don't mean it that way the west sometimes uses it to talk about people to other them. I mean it in the way that described societies everywhere millennia ago.) Essentially they are saying that they have greater empathy for people who look like them. And in this case, their amount of empathy means that some people live and some people die. And it is based on skin color and eye color. It's very old and uncivilized in the true sense of the word. Maybe precivilized would be a better word. To me, that sentiment seems like the same sentiment people had when homosapiens were a younger species. That's what I meant by not having progressed.

And I'm happy that I've been perceived as being respectful, but I"m still going to write things like that when I disagree with people here about such heavy, heavy topics because tone is very hard to read and it feels important for me.

Thanks again for engaging and the space to do that. And sorry if I have belabored the point. I will let you have the last word and not post anymore about this.

Kevin

[Suliso]

I could write so much about this, but only couple points:

- first of all when I wrote that this is different I hadn't seen those twitter comments so definitely not endorsing that! What I meant instead is that they are our neighbors and the war they are fleeing is as real as it could get. Also at least in the Latvian twitter the prevailing opinion is that it should be women and children fleeing and men staying to fight and that's mostly what we are seeing. Very different from previous refugee crises.

- It's maybe a bit tone deaf to talk about tremendous progress right now and in this context, but it doesn't really change the fact that ponchi is right. We have made a lot of progress AND there is still a lot of racisms and sexism left. Also I'll be the first to admit that in Eastern Europe racism is more embedded than in the Western part. Albeit in non life threatening situations as a visitor who doesn't speak a local language you probably would not notice.

- Certainly a lot more sympathy for Ukrainian refugees because they are like us, but there was a considerable amount for Syrians in the early stages as well. Otherwise one million of them wouldn't have ended up in Germany.

- And last it's easy for all of you to pontificate sitting safely on the other side of the planet. It's different if you're actually there like mick or even have family living close to the Russian border (me).

[MJ2004]

I haven't been watching any television network coverage. I really only consume the news from the FT/BBC/The Guardian. As such, I haven't seen the type of horrible coverage that Jazz posted to - in fact, I deliberately insulate myself from it because my head would explode. I admit that my tone in yesterday's posts may have sounded uncomfortably close to that coverage, and it certainly was not intentional. If anyone took it that way, I apologize.

[ponchi101]

I have a second poll to ask.
The question was posed in another forum I am in, where most members are car enthusiasts and are mostly located in England. Together with the denial to remain in SWIFT, stopping imports of Russian O&G would carry significant power. It is not, however, without costs for the west.
Being in O&G myself, I would benefit greatly from such a move, so to say my opinion is biased is an understatement. As on many occasions, let me re-calibrate my ideas with the collective wisdom of TAT2.0.

[ponchi101]

BTW.
A horrific fact. There are 1 million displaced Ukrainians, just in 7 days of war. For comparison, there were 2.4 million displacements from the Balkans, in 10 years of war.
Both horrific figures, but it shows how fast this is developing.

[Suliso]

There will be at least 4-5 million if Putin does conquer the entire country...

[ti-amie]

Londongrad explained