An early look at the US Open

[Deuce]

As I said - the other players were unfamiliar with the games of Bianca, Emma, and Leylah - and that was a major factor in the 3 of them doing well.
Since then, the other players have studied their games, and have figured out how to best play them. This happens all the time, and is what separates the 'flavours of the month' from the players who will have a very good or great career.

Of course, the confidence that Bianca, Emma, and Leylah gained is also a significant factor. But it certainly appears that the confidence that Bianca and Emma gained by doing well has disappeared now, and only Leylah is still benefiting from that boost of confidence.

And, no, I wasn't talking about Leylah doing well at the U.S. Open last year - until she was doing well. She had been struggling during the year before then, so there was certainly no indication that she'd get to the Final of the U.S. Open.
(But after about the 2nd round, I did jokingly predict a Leylah - Emma Final )

[Cuckoo4Coco]

Way too early to predict if Emma, Rybakina or Bianca will ever win another tournament. For one they are all very young and still even at where they are all in their games still improving and then you never know how anything will pan out in any Slam. Nobody thought Elena, Emma or Bianca were even going to win any Grand Slam tournaments and that happened. So why not again?

Because, with Emma and Bianca, other players have figured out their games. When they won the U.S. Open, they were new to the tour, and other players didn't know how to play them. Now they know - and, as a result, Emma and Bianca are not doing nearly as well as they did in the years they won the U.S. Open.

There are also other factors... The both the psychological physical fitness is questionable with both Emma and Bianca.
Andreescu's injury problems have a very long history, going back to Juniors. As well, she says that she 'almost quit tennis completely' during the time in the past year that she didn't play. Her good stretch was a period of only 6 months, 3 years ago. She has not done anything significant since then. A good 6 months does not make a great career - just as a bad 6 months does not make a terrible career. It depends what you do with the rest of your time on tour.
And, on a personal note, I find her arrogant - her attitude has too often been one of a person who thinks she is the greatest thing since sliced bread. That will come back to bite you in the behind in 95% of players of any sport.

As far as Emma is concerned, she has also shown that she is more fragile than average both physically and psychologically. Her having to pull out of Wimbledon 2021 because she was simply emotionally overwhelmed... and her 'little injuries' have had her retire from matches or withdraw in between matches far too often recently.

And so, all of that combined has led me to believe that neither one will ever win another Major - and maybe never win another significant tournament.

I still think both of them are still very young in their careers , especially Emma. Sure injuries happen and there isn't much that can be done about them and some injuries are harder to come back from then others both physically and psychologically.

I have heard several players say they were going to quit tennis or take a break because they were not there mentally or physically and the only one I can say actually did retire from the game way before I thought they should is Ash Barty and that was supposed to be because she wanted to do other things which is her choice.

I also think a lot of players on the pro tour are a bit arrogant. Both Serena and Venus Williams think they are the greatest thing since sliced bread and well they are really good , but no one should act that way. There are a lot of players that do though. There are some like Naomi that don't and are down to earth. Of course I don't know these players personally and I doubt you do as well so I can't say 100%.

I just know these players are professionals and they work on their games a heck of a lot more then I do and I guarantee you that they are working on things daily to change things up if they see other players figuring things out.

I am not going to say that Emma, Bianca, or Elena are going to for sure win another Grand Slam or am I going to say they absolutely have no chance of winning another. I will say I do believe the chances of them winning another sometime in the rest of their careers is better than not winning any at all.

[Cuckoo4Coco]

As I said - the other players were unfamiliar with the games of Bianca, Emma, and Leylah - and that was a major factor in the 3 of them doing well.
Since then, the other players have studied their games, and have figured out how to best play them. This happens all the time, and is what separates the 'flavours of the month' from the players who will have a very good or great career.

Of course, the confidence that Bianca, Emma, and Leylah gained is also a significant factor. But it certainly appears that the confidence that Bianca and Emma gained by doing well has disappeared now, and only Leylah is still benefiting from that boost of confidence.

And, no, I wasn't talking about Leylah doing well at the U.S. Open last year - until she was doing well. She had been struggling during the year before then, so there was certainly no indication that she'd get to the Final of the U.S. Open.
(But after about the 2nd round, I did jokingly predict a Leylah - Emma Final )

I don't get the whole unfamiliar thing though because every event and especially the Grand Slam events there are a lot of players in the draw that the top players are very unfamiliar with and the majority of those players get destroyed in the 1st round by the top players. So there has to be something more to what Bianca, Leylah, and Emma had then just being unfamiliar.

[Deuce]

As I said - the other players were unfamiliar with the games of Bianca, Emma, and Leylah - and that was a major factor in the 3 of them doing well.
Since then, the other players have studied their games, and have figured out how to best play them. This happens all the time, and is what separates the 'flavours of the month' from the players who will have a very good or great career.

Of course, the confidence that Bianca, Emma, and Leylah gained is also a significant factor. But it certainly appears that the confidence that Bianca and Emma gained by doing well has disappeared now, and only Leylah is still benefiting from that boost of confidence.

And, no, I wasn't talking about Leylah doing well at the U.S. Open last year - until she was doing well. She had been struggling during the year before then, so there was certainly no indication that she'd get to the Final of the U.S. Open.
(But after about the 2nd round, I did jokingly predict a Leylah - Emma Final )

I don't get the whole unfamiliar thing though because every event and especially the Grand Slam events there are a lot of players in the draw that the top players are very unfamiliar with and the majority of those players get destroyed in the 1st round by the top players. So there has to be something more to what Bianca, Leylah, and Emma had then just being unfamiliar.

Obviously there are degrees of ability. And obviously, just because someone is new to them does not mean that the new person will win.

There are established players, and there are upcoming players. In both groups, there are varying degrees of ability. Leylah, Bianca, and Emma have a certain degree of ability which allowed them to do well over a relatively short period of time (Leylah has thus far extended that time more than the other two, but her results have also obviously dropped from the time of the last U.S. Open).
But what Bianca and Emma have not been able to do thus far is to adapt to the other players adapting to them. And I don't really see any signs of them doing that to a degree that will get them to the relative position of beating the other players as often as they did at their short-lived 'peak'.
Leylah has adapted to other players adjusting to play her better than the other two have - and so she hasn't fallen as far from her 'peak' as the other two have.
It's pretty straightforward to me.

[Cuckoo4Coco]

As I said - the other players were unfamiliar with the games of Bianca, Emma, and Leylah - and that was a major factor in the 3 of them doing well.
Since then, the other players have studied their games, and have figured out how to best play them. This happens all the time, and is what separates the 'flavours of the month' from the players who will have a very good or great career.

Of course, the confidence that Bianca, Emma, and Leylah gained is also a significant factor. But it certainly appears that the confidence that Bianca and Emma gained by doing well has disappeared now, and only Leylah is still benefiting from that boost of confidence.

And, no, I wasn't talking about Leylah doing well at the U.S. Open last year - until she was doing well. She had been struggling during the year before then, so there was certainly no indication that she'd get to the Final of the U.S. Open.
(But after about the 2nd round, I did jokingly predict a Leylah - Emma Final )

I don't get the whole unfamiliar thing though because every event and especially the Grand Slam events there are a lot of players in the draw that the top players are very unfamiliar with and the majority of those players get destroyed in the 1st round by the top players. So there has to be something more to what Bianca, Leylah, and Emma had then just being unfamiliar.

Obviously there are degrees of ability. And obviously, just because someone is new to them does not mean that the new person will win.

There are established players, and there are upcoming players. In both groups, there are varying degrees of ability. Leylah, Bianca, and Emma have a certain degree of ability which allowed them to do well over a relatively short period of time (Leylah has thus far extended that time more than the other two, but her results have also obviously dropped from the time of the last U.S. Open).
But what Bianca and Emma have not been able to do thus far is to adapt to the other players adapting to them. And I don't really see any signs of them doing that to a degree that will get them to the relative position of beating the other players as often as they did at their short-lived 'peak'.
Leylah has adapted to other players adjusting to play her better than the other two have - and so she hasn't fallen as far from her 'peak' as the other two have.
It's pretty straightforward to me.

I can agree there are players that have more potential coming out of the gate than others, but I also have to say that there are players that come out of nowhere and make a long career of it. Look at a player like Sam Stosur for example. Not someone you would think would have longevity on the tour and she did win a Grand Slam and was ranked pretty high at points in her career. She had a great career. When she came on the scene was she this hotshot play. I highly doubt it. Before the USO who really knew of Emma Raducanu. Not very many people. Maybe you knew of Leylah and Bianca because you are from Canada before they did what they did, but most did not.

I guess what I am saying is these young players not only have a ton of time on their side and also even if they don't have the right people at the moment in their teams they have a lot of time to work that all out. I just don't see a player who reached the top not wanting to get back to that. I am no where near at the level of competition that they play and I know when I start having a slump I work 200% harder and I and my coach try and figure out how to change things up to get back to my winning ways. These players are professionals and I don't see how they would not do that same thing.

[Deuce]

I can agree there are players that have more potential coming out of the gate than others, but I also have to say that there are players that come out of nowhere and make a long career of it. Look at a player like Sam Stosur for example. Not someone you would think would have longevity on the tour and she did win a Grand Slam and was ranked pretty high at points in her career. She had a great career. When she came on the scene was she this hotshot play. I highly doubt it. Before the USO who really knew of Emma Raducanu. Not very many people. Maybe you knew of Leylah and Bianca because you are from Canada before they did what they did, but most did not.

I guess what I am saying is these young players not only have a ton of time on their side and also even if they don't have the right people at the moment in their teams they have a lot of time to work that all out. I just don't see a player who reached the top not wanting to get back to that. I am no where near at the level of competition that they play and I know when I start having a slump I work 200% harder and I and my coach try and figure out how to change things up to get back to my winning ways. These players are professionals and I don't see how they would not do that same thing.

I, of course, never said - or even implied - that they aren't working toward getting better, so I really don't know where that part of your comment comes from. (But, that said, there are certainly some players who don't work hard to improve.)

What I said, once again, is that I don't see that Emma or Bianca have adapted to the adjustments other players have made to the way they play them. Other players have figured them out, and so Emma and Bianca are disadvantaged as a result.

It's like computer hackers and programmers... The programmers do something to protect against being hacked... then the hackers figure out how to get around those protections... so the programmers have to find new, better ways to protect against hackers... and when the hackers figure out how to get around that, the programmers have to come up with something better and new.
With tennis players, now other players have figured Emma and Bianca out. So it's up to Emma and Bianca to figure out how they can gain the upper hand again. And on and on it goes, until given players reach their plateau.
I'm saying that I think Emma and Bianca have reached the point where they won't gain the upper hand again. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong. But that is what I see based on my 40 years of watching and playing the game.

[Cuckoo4Coco]

I can agree there are players that have more potential coming out of the gate than others, but I also have to say that there are players that come out of nowhere and make a long career of it. Look at a player like Sam Stosur for example. Not someone you would think would have longevity on the tour and she did win a Grand Slam and was ranked pretty high at points in her career. She had a great career. When she came on the scene was she this hotshot play. I highly doubt it. Before the USO who really knew of Emma Raducanu. Not very many people. Maybe you knew of Leylah and Bianca because you are from Canada before they did what they did, but most did not.

I guess what I am saying is these young players not only have a ton of time on their side and also even if they don't have the right people at the moment in their teams they have a lot of time to work that all out. I just don't see a player who reached the top not wanting to get back to that. I am no where near at the level of competition that they play and I know when I start having a slump I work 200% harder and I and my coach try and figure out how to change things up to get back to my winning ways. These players are professionals and I don't see how they would not do that same thing.

I, of course, never said - or even implied - that they aren't working toward getting better, so I really don't know where that part of your comment comes from. (But, that said, there are certainly some players who don't work hard to improve.)

What I said, once again, is that I don't see that Emma or Bianca have adapted to the adjustments other players have made to the way they play them. Other players have figured them out, and so Emma and Bianca are disadvantaged as a result.

It's like computer hackers and programmers... The programmers do something to protect against being hacked... then the hackers figure out how to get around those protections... so the programmers have to find new, better ways to protect against hackers... and when the hackers figure out how to get around that, the programmers have to come up with something better and new.
With tennis players, now other players have figured Emma and Bianca out. So it's up to Emma and Bianca to figure out how they can gain the upper hand again. And on and on it goes, until given players reach their plateau.
I'm saying that I think Emma and Bianca have reached the point where they won't gain the upper hand again. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong. But that is what I see based on my 40 years of watching and playing the game.

Maybe you have a lot more experience watching the game of tennis than I do and that will never change, but don't you think not adapting and adjusting to opponents games translates a bit to the lack of putting in the work? What I am saying is every player when they see that other players come along and adapt their games that can control the match much better when they play them they do everything they can to adjust. If they are not doing that then they are not putting in the effort they should be.

[Deuce]

No - sometimes they just can't adjust or adapt - either because they don't have the physical ability to, or because they can't figure out how to best adjust their game to beat very good players who have adjusted to play them better, etc.

Anyway - I'm done with this subject, as I'm just repeating myself in slightly different ways.
We'll see in 10 years or so if I'm right about Andreescu and Raducanu (although I actually expect them both to retire from tennis before that 10 years is up).

[ponchi101]

...

Maybe you have a lot more experience watching the game of tennis than I do and that will never change, but don't you think not adapting and adjusting to opponents games translates a bit to the lack of putting in the work? What I am saying is every player when they see that other players come along and adapt their games that can control the match much better when they play them they do everything they can to adjust. If they are not doing that then they are not putting in the effort they should be.

Maybe. But maybe, it just means that your game is no longer suitable to improve.
Stefan Edberg said it. His wonderful Serve & Volley game was no longer suitable for the tour. His continental FH was too weak for the new atomic strokes. He just could not move forward. Jim Courier, with a different stroke, also lost power on his FH and was never able to recover it. JC Ferrero, one of the hardest working men on tour, won RG and reached the USO final in 2003, and then, dropped and dropped and dropped in rankings for the next few years. He could not keep up with the other guys (and he was in the Federer generation, so he had to suffer that).
I am not saying Bianca and Emma are done; they are too young. But their return to greatness is not guaranteed, regardless of how much hard work they put in. They may just have, indeed, caught lightning in a bottle. Once.

[Cuckoo4Coco]

...

Maybe you have a lot more experience watching the game of tennis than I do and that will never change, but don't you think not adapting and adjusting to opponents games translates a bit to the lack of putting in the work? What I am saying is every player when they see that other players come along and adapt their games that can control the match much better when they play them they do everything they can to adjust. If they are not doing that then they are not putting in the effort they should be.

Maybe. But maybe, it just means that your game is no longer suitable to improve.
Stefan Edberg said it. His wonderful Serve & Volley game was no longer suitable for the tour. His continental FH was too weak for the new atomic strokes. He just could not move forward. Jim Courier, with a different stroke, also lost power on his FH and was never able to recover it. JC Ferrero, one of the hardest working men on tour, won RG and reached the USO final in 2003, and then, dropped and dropped and dropped in rankings for the next few years. He could not keep up with the other guys (and he was in the Federer generation, so he had to suffer that).
I am not saying Bianca and Emma are done; they are too young. But their return to greatness is not guaranteed, regardless of how much hard work they put in. They just have, indeed, caught lightning in a bottle. Once.

Both you and Deuce have a lot more experience on this than I do. I definitely am not saying that either of you are wrong that these players lost something in their game. Heck even Serena has lost something in her game over time. I just don't see Emma or Bianca for one both being so young to fall off terribly. They have both been at the top or close to the top and I am pretty sure they want some more of that. I can't guarantee that will happen and I don't think anyone can, but I also cannot guarantee that they will not and either can anyone else.

[ponchi101]

...

Both you and Deuce have a lot more experience on this than I do. I definitely am not saying that either of you are wrong that these players lost something in their game. Heck even Serena has lost something in her game over time. I just don't see Emma or Bianca for one both being so young to fall off terribly. They have both been at the top or close to the top and I am pretty sure they want some more of that. I can't guarantee that will happen and I don't think anyone can, but I also cannot guarantee that they will not and either can anyone else.

I don't believe in experience, especially when people usually use it to try to end an argument:
"I have 30 years experience in... blah blah blah".


We are fairly in agreement; I am not going to write off two players that have not even reached 23, the age at which Rybakina won her first Slam. But the parity in the WTA is so deep, and Bianca and Emma have done little since their Slams, so one has to wonder if they can climb that hill again.
I say they both will win one more; I give Bianca a better chance because she has power, while Emma lacks a bit of that. They share a bad penchant for injuries, and that is a con.
Emma will be able to re-tool after the USO, where she will lose and her ranking will drop. From there, a proper plan to play at some 250's and even some 125's will help her mature at a more "organic" pace.

[meganfernandez]

...

Maybe you have a lot more experience watching the game of tennis than I do and that will never change, but don't you think not adapting and adjusting to opponents games translates a bit to the lack of putting in the work? What I am saying is every player when they see that other players come along and adapt their games that can control the match much better when they play them they do everything they can to adjust. If they are not doing that then they are not putting in the effort they should be.

Maybe. But maybe, it just means that your game is no longer suitable to improve.
Stefan Edberg said it. His wonderful Serve & Volley game was no longer suitable for the tour. His continental FH was too weak for the new atomic strokes. He just could not move forward. Jim Courier, with a different stroke, also lost power on his FH and was never able to recover it. JC Ferrero, one of the hardest working men on tour, won RG and reached the USO final in 2003, and then, dropped and dropped and dropped in rankings for the next few years. He could not keep up with the other guys (and he was in the Federer generation, so he had to suffer that).
I am not saying Bianca and Emma are done; they are too young. But their return to greatness is not guaranteed, regardless of how much hard work they put in. They just have, indeed, caught lightning in a bottle. Once.

Both you and Deuce have a lot more experience on this than I do. I definitely am not saying that either of you are wrong that these players lost something in their game. Heck even Serena has lost something in her game over time. I just don't see Emma or Bianca for one both being so young to fall off terribly. They have both been at the top or close to the top and I am pretty sure they want some more of that. I can't guarantee that will happen and I don't think anyone can, but I also cannot guarantee that they will not and either can anyone else.

100% with you on this. No guarantees, but I'll take proven talent and success over proven talent and potential.

[Cuckoo4Coco]

The women's game is very deep and there are definitely no guarantees to pretty much every tournament they go into(even the slams). Before when Serena was there and winning all the time and even when Ash Barty started to take over you could sometimes predict the way things would go, but most of the time in the women's game it is up for grabs and now it definitely is. Even with a player like Iga you never know what will happen.

In just over a month we could be talking about another unknown ladies player who is rolling through the USO out of nowhere. Who knows?

I am not going to say that Emma , Elena, Bianca, Leylah or any of those young players will ever be a Serena or even Ash Barty because it probably won't happen, but you never know.

[ponchi101]

Barty's bar is not that high. She left too early. That is only 3 slams, barring any return.

[meganfernandez]

The women's game is very deep and there are definitely no guarantees to pretty much every tournament they go into(even the slams). Before when Serena was there and winning all the time and even when Ash Barty started to take over you could sometimes predict the way things would go, but most of the time in the women's game it is up for grabs and now it definitely is. Even with a player like Iga you never know what will happen.

In just over a month we could be talking about another unknown ladies player who is rolling through the USO out of nowhere. Who knows?

I am not going to say that Emma , Elena, Bianca, Leylah or any of those young players will ever be a Serena or even Ash Barty because it probably won't happen, but you never know.

I can see Leylah and Elena surpassing Barty's accomplishments on paper - 3 Slams, a run at #1... If Barty hadn't retired, I think she would have set the bar out of reach for them. I think Emma can have a solid Top 20 career and challenge for more Slams. Bianca is iffier based on durability and motivation, but certainly the tennis is there.