Talk About Tennis 2.0

It's not much of an interesting perspective to me, more an uninformed one. How do the professional leagues have domestic violence policies? Anyone? And dismissing due process? That's cute. I hadn't realized the Chinese legal system was gaining in popularity in these parts.

Also, it is complete and utter BS to act like every league that does have a domestic violence policy would investigate this and render a punishment, especially one that people seem to want for Zverev. They would not. Basilashvili? Yes, but no, this wouldn't get the same treatment. Living in a utopian dreamworld believing that would be the case.

JazzNU wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 11:34 pm It's not much of an interesting perspective to me, more an uninformed one. How do the professional leagues have domestic violence policies? Anyone? And dismissing due process? That's cute. I hadn't realized the Chinese legal system was gaining in popularity in these parts.

Also, it is complete and utter BS to act like every league that does have a domestic violence policy would investigate this and render a punishment, especially one that people seem to want for Zverev. They would not. Basilashvili? Yes, but no, this wouldn't get the same treatment. Living in a utopian dreamworld believing that would be the case.

I forget which case of domestic violence we were discussing (It was TAT1.0) but some of the points you bring up were voiced. Some TAT'ers did talk about why should sports leagues be the ones dealing with this issue, when it was a societal problem and something that law enforcement, not the leagues, should police.
Since you are talking about this. I feel that the ATP should not be the one investigating or judging Zverev. These are two German citizens, a country that is not a backwater society in which the "rule of thumb" is in the legal codes. If this assault really took place, I do not believe that this young woman is without tools to properly and formally present her case to the authorities and follow due process.

ponchi101 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:53 pm I forget which case of domestic violence we were discussing (It was TAT1.0) but some of the points you bring up were voiced. Some TAT'ers did talk about why should sports leagues be the ones dealing with this issue, when it was a societal problem and something that law enforcement, not the leagues, should police.
Since you are talking about this. I feel that the ATP should not be the one investigating or judging Zverev. These are two German citizens, a country that is not a backwater society in which the "rule of thumb" is in the legal codes. If this assault really took place, I do not believe that this young woman is without tools to properly and formally present her case to the authorities and follow due process.

They are not two German citizens. As the article states, she's a Russian citizen, he's a German citizen and the alleged crimes took place in locations outside those two countries. She'd probably have to press charges in the US, Switzerland, and China if she decided to pursue the matter.

The article also states that the allegations suggest he violated ATP rules as two of the locations were considered "onsite" at the tournaments.

A logical extension of your approach would be that the ATP and ITF shouldn't get involved in match-fixing either.

mmmm8 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 5:42 pm ...

They are not two German citizens. As the article states, she's a Russian citizen, he's a German citizen and the alleged crimes took place in locations outside those two countries. She'd probably have to press charges in the US, Switzerland, and China if she decided to pursue the matter.

The article also states that the allegations suggest he violated ATP rules as two of the locations were considered "onsite" at the tournaments.

A logical extension of your approach would be that the ATP and ITF shouldn't get involved in match-fixing either.

Txs for the corrections.
But sorry, I don't see, in turn, your simile with match fixing. Match fixing directly involves the sport. It would mean one or more players affecting the outcome of a specific match. Domestic violence does not. You could be the ultimate monster off court, and still play tennis and it would not affect the matches.

ponchi101 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 6:18 pm

mmmm8 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 5:42 pm ...

They are not two German citizens. As the article states, she's a Russian citizen, he's a German citizen and the alleged crimes took place in locations outside those two countries. She'd probably have to press charges in the US, Switzerland, and China if she decided to pursue the matter.

The article also states that the allegations suggest he violated ATP rules as two of the locations were considered "onsite" at the tournaments.

A logical extension of your approach would be that the ATP and ITF shouldn't get involved in match-fixing either.

Txs for the corrections.
But sorry, I don't see, in turn, your simile with match fixing. Match fixing directly involves the sport. It would mean one or more players affecting the outcome of a specific match. Domestic violence does not. You could be the ultimate monster off court, and still play tennis and it would not affect the matches.

My point is that player conduct while onsite is in the rulebook even though the criminality of it is with the authorities. Match-fixing is also a crime (in most jurisdictions, if not all).

Serious question, as you know I don't work for "regular" companies. Are companies nowadays including in their contracts with employees clauses regarding domestic violence? The contracts I get only include, of course, confidentiality items and specific terms for the contracts, so I don't know if people can be terminated, contractually, due to behavior outside of company premises that does not directly affect the company's performance or profitability.
Not related to what is being discussed here, directly, but I wonder if tangentially it would be.

ponchi101 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 6:35 pm Serious question, as you know I don't work for "regular" companies. Are companies nowadays including in their contracts with employees clauses regarding domestic violence? The contracts I get only include, of course, confidentiality items and specific terms for the contracts, so I don't know if people can be terminated, contractually, due to behavior outside of company premises that does not directly affect the company's performance or profitability.
Not related to what is being discussed here, directly, but I wonder if tangentially it would be.

Employers here can fire people for a host of things including detrimental conduct outside of the workplace, but that's in large part because the grand majority of US workers are at-will employees. Now, the majority of people also operate as if they have a contract and then they (expletive) around and find out they don't. That's why people have gotten fired left and right for racist and sexist rants in public and on social media. The company doesn't have to keep you.

There are some ways in which it's more difficult to fire someone that is at-will, but by and large, not that big of an issue when someone (expletive) up.

Now for the choice few that are actually under contract, there would typically be a morality clause that you could use for something like this to terminate the contract. That's not new, been around a long time, it's purposefully broad. You guys probably haven't heard it in a while, but you might remember the phrase moral turpitude being used in the past.

Don't know how any of this is handled in Germany.


FYI, Zverev is not now and never has been an employee of ATP, so moot in this context. And no charges or suits, be they criminal or civil, makes this a legal quagmire.

There's also a workplace violence policy for most companies that would lead to a dismissal if violated. This extends to company offsite events.

Of course, as noted, he's not an employee of the ATP, but it can be construed he's a temporary employee of the tournament, no?

I have a work contract (in Switzerland) like most around here do, but to be honest I don't remember all the unusual circumstances under which I could be fired quickly. It's mostly obvious stuff like stealing from the company, sexual harassment, gross breach of confidentiality etc.

mmmm8 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 7:12 pm There's also a workplace violence policy for most companies that would lead to a dismissal if violated. This extends to company offsite events.

Of course, as noted, he's not an employee of the ATP, but it can be construed he's a temporary employee of the tournament, no?

Not even a little.

Sad one of the future leaders of our sport is like that. I could have been a fan...