Talk About Tennis 2.0

I have always had a problem with tennis comms, instead of just calling Player X by her/his name instead go " the Spaniard" or "the Serbian" or "the American". Call the player by the name they're using seems to be a better way to do things.

Tennis gets no respect.

Super fan @Lawanda has posted her phot album from last years Indian Wells. She's one of the great folks on Tennis Twitter

ti-amie wrote: ↑Wed Mar 02, 2022 9:04 pm Super fan @Lawanda has posted her phot album from last years Indian Wells. She's one of the great folks on Tennis Twitter

Dang, is there anyone she didn't get? That lifted my spirits for a second in this really horrible time. A big thanks for the post.

Kevin

ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Wed Mar 02, 2022 3:14 pm That was my thoughts too. It's easy for those of us in say North America to say "well that shouldn't matter" - but how can any of us really judge? We haven't experienced this, so we don't know what it feels like. If removing the country name/flag from the player's tournament entry mentally helps these players (especially ones who actually had to leave Ukraine) who are we to say that isn't "fixing" anything? We can't fairly judge that for them. We haven't walked a mile in their shoes.

What about those players for whom all indications of nationality are removed? Are we to completely discount their feelings?
By removing all indications of their nationality, the implication - rather clearly - is that the Russian and Belarusian athletes are guilty by association. Do you think that makes them feel wonderful? Do you even care how THEY feel?
Two wrongs don't make a right. There are better ways to address this issue than to superficially attempt to deny innocent people the right to subtly indicate their nationality.

Please don't paint it as my ignoring the emotions of Ukranian people. As I mentioned previously - in numerous posts - I very much empathise with Ukrainian people - what they are going through is terrible. But I maintain that an entirely superficial action like removing all traces of national identity from players of certain countries does nothing to truly help anyone. It is just like the IOC calling the Russian teams 'ROC' or 'OAR' - as if that fixes the fact that the Russians have been caught cheating numerous times.

Superficial actions like this is the equivalent of putting lipstick on a pig. It does absolutely nothing to fix the problem. And, in the case of removing the national identity of individual athletes, it does harm - as these innocent athletes from Russia and Belarus have done nothing to deserve this.

ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Wed Mar 02, 2022 3:14 pm That was my thoughts too. It's easy for those of us in say North America to say "well that shouldn't matter" - but how can any of us really judge? We haven't experienced this, so we don't know what it feels like. If removing the country name/flag from the player's tournament entry mentally helps these players (especially ones who actually had to leave Ukraine) who are we to say that isn't "fixing" anything? We can't fairly judge that for them. We haven't walked a mile in their shoes.

Only thing I will disagree is that we are not judging, we are giving opinions, and thoughtful ones. If we had to walk in their shoes before we could give opinions, there would be only two members in this forum that could give opinions.
I appreciate all the opinions here, precisely because they are exercises in what theoretically should or could be done. And I believe that this forum is smart enough, collectively and individually, to provide insight into what is happening, at many levels.

ti-amie wrote: ↑Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:22 pm Tennis gets no respect.

I think in the case of Serena it's more than just a lack of respect. Elena Svitolina and Vika are not household names. Serena is probably the most famous female athlete in the world. (Please correct me if that's wrong.) I went to a Zoom book reading once and the author was going to be interviewed by a Black woman. In the promo stuff, they used the wrong woman's picture for the interviewer. She didn't do the interview, and the author called out the people who were putting on the talk. I'm not shocked by Fox News. I am shocked by the NYT, though I guess I shouldn't be.



Kevin

Deuce wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 1:15 am Superficial actions like this is the equivalent of putting lipstick on a pig. It does absolutely nothing to fix the problem. And, in the case of removing the national identity of individual athletes, it does harm - as these innocent athletes from Russia and Belarus have done nothing to deserve this.

If a Ukranian player facing a Russian opponent is mentally comforted by not having to see the Russian flag on the scoreboard, announced, etc... then it's not lipstick on a pig. It's a compassionate action.

If it was just lipstick on a pig, then why would it be harming Russian/Belarussian athletes? You can't say doing this WON'T mentally help Ukranians while also saying it WILL mentally harm the Russians.

They aren't "fixing" a problem, they are trying to find some sort of compromise where they punish the innocent athletes as little as possible while supporting the Ukranian athletes.

ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 1:22 pm

Deuce wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 1:15 am Superficial actions like this is the equivalent of putting lipstick on a pig. It does absolutely nothing to fix the problem. And, in the case of removing the national identity of individual athletes, it does harm - as these innocent athletes from Russia and Belarus have done nothing to deserve this.

If a Ukranian player facing a Russian opponent is mentally comforted by not having to see the Russian flag on the scoreboard, announced, etc... then it's not lipstick on a pig. It's a compassionate action.

If it was just lipstick on a pig, then why would it be harming Russian/Belarussian athletes? You can't say doing this WON'T mentally help Ukranians while also saying it WILL mentally harm the Russians.

They aren't "fixing" a problem, they are trying to find some sort of compromise where they punish the innocent athletes as little as possible while supporting the Ukranian athletes.

Why should innocent athletes be harmed or punished at all? Just to appease Ukranian athletes? And who is to say that these innocent athletes are harmed "as little as possible"? Maybe removing their identity harms them a great deal.

If someone demands that you put lipstick on a pig because they don't like the smell of pigs, and you go and steal lipstick from an innocent person to put on the pig, what have you truly accomplished?
The original problem is still there, because the lipstick does nothing to mask the smell of the pig, PLUS you've created another victim by stealing the lipstick from an innocent person.
That's what is happening here.
Whether the national identities of Russians and Belarusians is removed or not changes absolutely nothing that is occurring in Ukraine. How does this remedy anything? It only adds to the number of victims who feel bad.

Removing the national identities of players from certain countries is entirely irrelevant to what is happening in Ukraine right now, regardless of what players like Svitolina say. She is trying to find some sort of convenient scapegoat. It's her way of feeling that she's 'doing something' to help the situation. But all she's really doing by this demand is adding to the misery - because now Russian and Belarusian players feel like crap, too. Therefore, it is both unreasonable and very unfair for Ukrainians to demand (as Svitolina did) that innocent athletes be punished just so they can feel a little better. I empathise with her - and with all Ukrainians - but she is being very selfish here. Better, more concrete, more relevant, and more profound ways should be found to make Ukrainians feel better - ways that do not punish innocent people for simply being born in a certain part of the world.

It's also a form of unfair prejudice against certain people simply because they were born in a certain country. Why is this suddenly acceptable??

Where does it stop? Can a Ukrainian player demand that his/her opponent not wear clothing in the colours of Russia because it makes them feel bad to see those colours? Can they demand that all Russian players change their names to 'Smith'? Can a given player demand that another player be removed from the draw because the two players previously had a heated argument and player 'A' would feel better if player 'B' were removed? Should an individual have the right to demand that a media outlet not mention the word 'Russia' orally or in writing because the word traumatizes him/her?
This should not be about appeasing any individual - especially if it means harming another in order to appease them.

You cannot punish an innocent person simply to appease another - because that is both unreasonable and grossly unfair. You cannot target specific players - who are completely innocent and who have done nothing wrong - in order to make another player feel better. Doing so is the definition of trying to make 2 wrongs make a right. It is also very much employing the philosophy of guilt by association, which is inherently wrong and unfair. If your brother robs a bank, should YOU be punished for the crime? This is what guilt by association is, and why it's inherently unjust and wrong.

My point is that by taking this action, innocent athletes are harmed. BY THE ACTION which targets them specifically, though they've done absolutely nothing wrong. The Ukrainian players will still feel horrible because of what is happening in their country. So instead of having only the Ukrainian players feel bad, you also have the Russian and Belarusian players feeling bad because the indication of their national identity has been forcibly removed from them without their consent. So you have the original victims of what is occurring in Ukraine, and you've ADDED MORE VICTIMS by removing the national identities of innocent people. Bravo.

Find better, more fair, more relevant, more profound, more constructive, more concrete, more effective ways to ease a person's suffering - ways which do not involve punishing completely innocent people.

.

I guess the only way to know for sure is to hear from the players themselves. It sure seems like Pavlyuchenkova would have no problem with the removal of any mention of her country in matches for example. I'm guessing most other Russians would feel the same, even if they (perhaps wisely) wouldn't speak out and admit it.

it's definitely not the perfect solution no...but there isn't any perfect solution that will make anyone happy. This seems to be the best overall compromise - but nothing is going to make everyone from both sides happy. In this case, err on the side of being nicer to the players from the country being invaded.

now Djokovic is cleared to play RG and Wimbledon, exactly as foreseen.. now wait for the other shoe to drop - the US will soon open up too, and Djokovic is back in business (ok, except for the Sunshine double)

ashkor87 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 04, 2022 6:47 am now Djokovic is cleared to play RG and Wimbledon, exactly as foreseen.. now wait for the other shoe to drop - the US will soon open up too, and Djokovic is back in business (ok, except for the Sunshine double)

Indeed, you said it. Give it some time and no vaccine mandates anywhere.
C'est la vie.

I haven't seen anything reputable indicating it's a done deal. The word "could" is being used, not "will." People are doing a victory lap like the Australian Open wasn't a month and a half ago when the virus was at a much different point, but everyone is positive that in 2.5 months things will be exactly as they are now? I hope things keep improving, but we've all made assumptions about how this virus will go and rarely been correct. The more reputable sources are using terms that are not guarantees for a reason.

Mladenovic and Garcia are still in the usual prime years, but their top 10 days seem as far in the past as dinosaurs...

I felt that Kiki would be a member of the top 10 for a long time. A total miss.