Talk About Tennis 2.0

ponchi101 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 9:36 pm Serious question. Why is this man so highly regarded as a coach? He took on Serena, a fully formed player, and made her reach what new heights?
Again, serious question. I just don't see why people think he is a good coach.

It's rather strange how often people act like Serena is the first player he coached and that's all he's ever done.

JazzNU wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:06 pm ...

It's rather strange how often people act like Serena is the first player he coached and that's all he's ever done.

Serious here. Who else did he coach before Serena? What were his credentials before her? I really don't know anything about him prior to that.

ponchi101 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:23 pm

JazzNU wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:06 pm ...

It's rather strange how often people act like Serena is the first player he coached and that's all he's ever done.

Serious here. Who else did he coach before Serena? What were his credentials before her? I really don't know anything about him prior to that.

He had the academy for many years before coaching Serena. Wouldn't you assume he had coached others before her and that's the reason she sought his help? Marcos, Nastia, Grigor, Chardy, and Rezai were all before Serena.

But here's a question. Who did Brad Gilbert coach before Andre Agassi? What about Darren Cahill before Hewitt? David Witt before Venus? Wim Fissette before Clijsters? Why is Patrick's history and reputation the one that is constantly in question and the others get to just be highly regarded because of their well known success with high profile players no matter what stage of their career they entered? It has never made a bit of sense to me how much people like to complain about and undercut him.

Since his name has been brought up recently here, Ricardo Piatti is another one. Patrick is just as well established in France as Ricardo is in Italy. Same questions don't arise about Ricardo as they do about Patrick.

Gilbert was a former top 10 player. Cahill was a former top 15. Witt also played in the tour.
Fissette came up slowly and he and Clijsters came up together. He brought her up.
Then. I have not seen anybody else in this board question Moratogliuo. I DID. So it is not as if a platoon of people are wondering how and why he is so sought after. Piatti has been spoken about lately because he has been instrumental in bringing Sinner up, which is precisely the opposite of what Moratogliuo has done. Piatti can say "I have developed this young player", which was my point. Moratogliou started with Serena when she was already not only a champion, but well into the fight for GOAT. Pretty much like Annacone with Sampras, whom he inherited from Gullikson (*) after his tragic death.
And of course he has done more than coach Serena. He is coaching Stefanos and Coco, if I remember well. But those two are in reality coached by their parents, so I still wonder: what do people see in him?

JazzNU wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 12:44 am

ponchi101 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:23 pm

JazzNU wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:06 pm ...

It's rather strange how often people act like Serena is the first player he coached and that's all he's ever done.

Serious here. Who else did he coach before Serena? What were his credentials before her? I really don't know anything about him prior to that.

He had the academy for many years before coaching Serena. Wouldn't you assume he had coached others before her and that's the reason she sought his help? Marcos, Nastia, Grigor, Chardy, and Rezai were all before Serena.

But here's a question. Who did Brad Gilbert coach before Andre Agassi? What about Darren Cahill before Hewitt? David Witt before Venus? Wim Fissette before Clijsters? Why is Patrick's history and reputation the one that is constantly in question and the others get to just be highly regarded because of their well known success with high profile players no matter what stage of their career they entered? It has never made a bit of sense to me how much people like to complain about and undercut him.

Since his name has been brought up recently here, Ricardo Piatti is another one. Patrick is just as well established in France as Ricardo is in Italy. Same questions don't arise about Ricardo as they do about Patrick.

Except that I actually know who Mouratoglou is

ponchi101 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 1:01 am Gilbert was a former top 10 player. Cahill was a former top 15. Witt also played in the tour.
Fissette came up slowly and he and Clijsters came up together. He brought her up.
Then. I have not seen anybody else in this board question Moratogliuo. I DID. So it is not as if a platoon of people are wondering how and why he is so sought after. Piatti has been spoken about lately because he has been instrumental in bringing Sinner up, which is precisely the opposite of what Moratogliuo has done. Piatti can say "I have developed this young player", which was my point. Moratogliou started with Serena when she was already not only a champion, but well into the fight for GOAT. Pretty much like Annacone with Sampras, whom he inherited from Wilkinson after his tragic death.
And of course he has done more than coach Serena. He is coaching Stefanos and Coco, if I remember well. But those two are in reality coached by their parents, so I still wonder: what do people see in him?

Then you haven't been paying attention. There have been snide comments about him for years on here and throughout social media.

And you're discounting the players I mentioned that Patrick worked with when they were young same as Sinner with Piatti. Marcos would likely be one of the first big names he developed to a high level of success. Also, you're discounting the other examples I gave, of many coaches that joined players after they had great success. And what does them being players have to do with anything? You can't pretend that Brad Gilbert developed Agassi or that David Witt developed Venus Williams, but what do you hear about them? Nothing but praise for the work they did with that player despite not coaching them from the age of 2. Same with Wim Fissette who has a long history of working with already successful players, and who you are giving an amazing amount of credit to for Kim Clijsters' career despite him only being her coach after she came out of her first retirement. He did not "bring her up."

I am not discounting the players you mentioned; I did not reply about that because I don't have to doubt your assessment there.
Thanks for correcting me about Clijsters/Fissette. I am mixing coaches there.
Gilbert and Agassi. I don't think that you can say that Gilbert brought nothing to the mix. Agassi was this famous über-talented player, without a head. Gilberts, a famously underpowered and undertalented player, was famous for strategy and tennis savvy, and after he came on board, the change was evident. Agassi '99 (RG and USO) was a far more elaborate player than Agassi '94 (1st USO). Gilbert did not develop Agassi, but polished him very well.
Before my next point, a little history from where I come.
I never understood players fascination with Bolletieri. I felt that because he had coached Agassi for a while, he became this sort of guru that really only taught players how to hit a FH. He delivered Jimmy Arias to the tour, with a monster FH and nothing else. So I always wondered what was it about Bolletieri that had people coming for him.
So, maybe a lot of people doubt Moratogliou. Maybe WATA (I certainly can be the one). But you have not answered what I am asking: what do people see in him? Why is he so highly prized that players are willing to share him as a coach? (Serena, Stefanos, Coco and now Halep?). Because, sure, maybe IATA. But I don't see it.

If Mouratoglou has been getting criticism (I don't know, as I pay no attention to 'social media'), it's likely because he comes across to many people as an arrogant, obnoxious, pretentious know-it-all.
Whether he is those things or not, I don't know - but that is how he comes across to me and to other people I know. And there's usually some degree of accuracy there.

I have often said that I feel most tennis coaches are hugely overrated (and it is very often the coaches themselves who overrate themselves, and then it snowballs, because that's what the internet does).

ponchi101 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 1:01 am Pretty much like Annacone with Sampras, whom he inherited from Wilkinson after his tragic death.

^ Gullikson (Tim).

Thanks for the correction about Wilkinson (who was a player ONLY) and Gullikson, both a player and then Sampras' coach.

I think it's true what Deuce says. Mouratoglou gets criticized a bit more than others because of his big mouth.

Suliso wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:34 am I think it's true what Deuce says. Mouratoglou gets criticized a bit more than others because of his big mouth.

Yes, and he is very self-promotional (partly for his business/brand), so he's simply in the public eye more than the average coach.

meganfernandez wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 3:55 pm

Suliso wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:34 am I think it's true what Deuce says. Mouratoglou gets criticized a bit more than others because of his big mouth.

Yes, and he is very self-promotional (partly for his business/brand), so he's simply in the public eye more than the average coach.

I think the same could be said of Brad Gilbert, but criticism of his coaching is virtually non-existent. Of him as a TV personality? Loads. But I have rarely seem someone question him as a valued coach even as they are saying something negative about him on TV and that's my point. There are quite a few coaches in the public eye. Some more likable than others, but time and again, it's Patrick that people question his value as a coach and it always seems to come down to them not liking him. But given that people certainly don't love Brad, Ivan, or Boris, for instance, it's bizarre for Patrick to be the only one I can remember who gets criticism consistently.

Gilbert isn't a coach - he's a commentator. He's often a massive pain in the ass - but when was the last time he coached full time? - it was a while ago (maybely before 'social media' took over the planet). That's one reason why his coaching doesn't get criticized as often as Mouratoglou.

As for Becker and Lendl... they are, of course, former top players - as is Gilbert. They derive a certain respect from having 'been there and done that'. Becker and Lendl don't brag about their coaching exploits. Gilbert does - but pretty much everything coming from Gilbert can be viewed as comical and not taken incredibly seriously - he's like a caricature of himself.

Mouratoglou was never a top player. And, as others have said, he self-promotes more than any of the others. He also comes across as an arrogant and obnoxious know-it-all to many.
From an objective perspective, it's quite easy to see why he's more criticized than other coaches are.

Raducanu and Beltz split


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

meganfernandez wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:49 am Raducanu and Beltz split

It's at the point of ridiculous frequency now that one must wonder if this is done deliberately - like maybe to keep her name in the news. If that is the case, I doubt very much it's Emma's doing. Maybe a really bad public relations firm or something.

Really - it would be best at this point if she simply goes without a coach for a while... or if she works with a coach but SHUTS UP COMPLETELY ABOUT IT... because continuing a little longer with the skipping around from coach to coach to coach like she has done will give her an unshakeable reputation as 'uncoachable' - if it has not already done so - and when she matures and honestly looks for an actual committed coach, there won't be any takers.