Talk About Tennis 2.0

Suliso wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:59 pm We might be, but then again how wrong can one be with something like Na Li?

Probably way less wrong than with Su-Wei Hsieh, that I agree

There was a discussion about Hsieh Su-Wei's name and it's proper pronunciation. The poster, who from the post seemed to be of Asian (Chinese) descent was raging about how pronouncing it "Shay Soo-Way" was so wrong it made their ears bleed. It took a long time for people to talk the person down from the ceiling after explaining that the tones in Asian/Chinese language don't exist everywhere.

I continue to say that if NBA announcers can get names right pro tennis announcers can do the same - if they want to.

Suliso wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:59 pm We might be, but then again how wrong can one be with something like Na Li?

Li Na?

skatingfan wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:21 pm

Suliso wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:59 pm We might be, but then again how wrong can one be with something like Na Li?

Li Na?

Yes, we can screw it up even there

dmforever wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:32 pm

mick1303 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:28 am And the worst perpetrator is of course Brad Gilbert. Who can forget "Ralph Nadal". I wonder what would be his reaction if one of interviewed players would intentionally butcher his name - in his face.
If he thinks that this is funny, then his maturity is still on the kindergarten level.

I have one question about correct pronunciation of Slavic names. Is there a rule? I tried to generalize from the examples that you so graciously gave, and it seemed like the syllable before the "ova" suffix was the stressed syllable. But then in the Kuznetsova example it's different. Thanks in advance for any linguistic help you can provide.

Kevin

Slavic languages vary, and there IS a rule in Czech/Slovak and it's that the accent there is never on the -OVA for the women's last names. The women's names are a variation of the men's, with OVA added at the end. Logically, the men's and women's names would have the accent in the same place, and so it's always before the -OVA.

As Mick pointed out, that rule doesn't exist in Russian, where usually it's an -a that is added for women's names, if the name changes by gender at all.

Yes, commentators should get it right.
I have heard American commentators 'americanize' many, many foreign names over the years. And I've found it to be lazy, selfish, and disrespectful - kind of as if they think everyone should pronounce the names their way because it makes it easier for them.

To me, the most flagrant case of this is the Indycar driver Rinus van Kalmthout. Because he races in an American racing series, he has become 'Rinus VeeKay' (as in VK). Simply because the American commentators decided that 'van Kalmthout' is 'too difficult' to pronounce.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rinus_VeeKay

That said... if the person in question (athlete, etc.) is ok with the mispronunciations and name changes, I suppose it's not disrespectful - just lazy.

mmmm8 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:53 pm

dmforever wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:32 pm

mick1303 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:28 am And the worst perpetrator is of course Brad Gilbert. Who can forget "Ralph Nadal". I wonder what would be his reaction if one of interviewed players would intentionally butcher his name - in his face.
If he thinks that this is funny, then his maturity is still on the kindergarten level.

I have one question about correct pronunciation of Slavic names. Is there a rule? I tried to generalize from the examples that you so graciously gave, and it seemed like the syllable before the "ova" suffix was the stressed syllable. But then in the Kuznetsova example it's different. Thanks in advance for any linguistic help you can provide.

Kevin

Slavic languages vary, and there IS a rule in Czech/Slovak and it's that the accent there is never on the -OVA for the women's last names. The women's names are a variation of the men's, with OVA added at the end. Logically, the men's and women's names would have the accent in the same place, and so it's always before the -OVA.

As Mick pointed out, that rule doesn't exist in Russian, where usually it's an -a that is added for women's names, if the name changes by gender at all.

Interesting. Thanks. But the "ova" suffix is Russian too, right?

Edit: So in Russian, a man's last name can end in "ov" and a woman's last name would just at an "a" to the "ov", but in Czech that man's last name won't end in "ov" and you just add "ova" to the man's name. Is that it? So...
Czech = Navratil / Natvatilova
Russian = Sharapov / Sharapova
??

Kevin

dmforever wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 8:35 pm

Interesting. Thanks. But the "ova" suffix is Russian too, right?

Edit: So in Russian, a man's last name can end in "ov" and a woman's last name would just at an "a" to the "ov", but in Czech that man's last name won't end in "ov" and you just add "ova" to the man's name. Is that it? So...
Czech = Navratil / Natvatilova
Russian = Sharapov / Sharapova
??

Kevin

Exactly.

But Russian will have more variations of the -a being added for women's last names, that are not -ov/ova (for example, Vesnin(a), or Medvedev(a)), names that change endings differently based on gender (i.e., Youzhny's wife is Yulia Youzhnaya), as well as names that don't change based on gender (for example, Gabashvili (which is of Georgian origin) Kirilenko (which is of Ukrainian origin), or Bublik).

I am making Esperanto the official language of this board, on Monday. Polish up during the weekend!

ponchi101 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:26 pm I am making Esperanto the official language of this board, on Monday. Polish up during the weekend!

Estas bone ĉe mi.

About Chezh pronunciations - does this mean that Navratil-O-va is also incorrect? We were always calling her Navrat-I-lova between ourselves. But we just didn't know which way is correct and were saying it as if she was Russian. Russian tennis announcers were also calling her Navrat-I-lova. But those were even worse than American ones - extremely ignorant to everything outside Russia, so I wouldn't rely on how the say it.

Why are we so psychic here on TAT? Whoever the comm in calling the Junior Boys Semi between Rincon and Kym just announced the the winner of the other semi, Shang Juncheng, goes by "Jerry". He said he's glad he's doing that to make it easier for westerners (read Americans). It reminds me of Chan Yung-jan becoming "Latisha" and the chair umpire Zhang Juan going by "Jenny".

mick1303 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:47 pm About Chezh pronunciations - does this mean that Navratil-O-va is also incorrect? We were always calling her Navrat-I-lova between ourselves. But we just didn't know which way is correct and were saying it as if she was Russian. Russian tennis announcers were also calling her Navrat-I-lova. But those were even worse than American ones - extremely ignorant to everything outside Russia, so I wouldn't rely on how the say it.

No, both the Russians and the English speakers have butchered Navratilova:
(read the thread)

The correct pronunciation has the accent on the second A: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cs-M ... tilova.ogg

I watch a good amount of tennis coverage in Russian (from the US via an app) and the pronunciation is generally fairly decent or at least better than American, although definitely not always. A lot of the commentators now are recent past players/have been around them and know the correct pronunciation.

Martina is so cool

Another case of wrong pronunciation. Should be Khach-A-nov rather than Kh-A-chanov as they usually say.