Talk About Tennis 2.0

Interesting… I don’t remember soccer not being that way (having lots of diving) but I also have no memories of it before the .. 89 ? … World Cup.

86 world cup (Mexico) or 90 (Italy).

90 then. West Germany beating Argentina in final. And even that I don't remember if there was diving etc. Too young to notice that then.

I think that if a person truly loves a sport, he/she will want to see it played fairly, the way that it was designed and intended to be played.
These fake injuries are literally repeated, constant, and extreme efforts to cheat. Sure, this occurs in every sport - but not at anywhere near the level it does in soccer. The Houston Astros banged on garbage cans in a less overt effort to cheat, and baseball fans everywhere objected to it and refused to accept it.

Real soccer fans who truly love the game cannot possibly accept the ridiculous attempts to cheat and alarming frequency with which this occurs in the sport. Soccer has become a parody of itself. It's time for it to become better and to start respecting itself instead.

Here are 3 articles, for anyone interested in reading on the subject. All three are North American perspectives, which are probably generally more objective on this particular subject, as soccer is less popular here than in other parts of the world.

The first is from 'webcache', as it has been removed from the original website...
Leave the Fake Injuries to Wrestling

The second is a Canadian perspective...
Draw the Curtain on Theatrics in Soccer

The third makes me think of the parallels to the fake Medical Time Outs in tennis...
Athletes Faking Injuries is Unacceptable

.

I know we don't like it in North America...that's not what I'm debating. Outside of North America do people feel like this? Obviously may be harder for you or I to find (or understand) if any articles on it. My thought is many of those "real soccer fans" don't consider it cheating and just consider it part of the game.

The third article reminds me of many cases in professional (North American) football where some similar things are celebrated. If a punter is able to draw contact and make themselves look hurt, they are celebrated for "drawing a penalty" for example. And there are the mentioned fake injuries to stop clock, momentum etc. Perhaps we aren't so different here after all.

A good comparison we can relate to is ice hockey - the European game in much different than the North American game. I wonder if many Europeans watch North American ice hockey and think all the body checking and physical contact is cheating. We consider it part of the game. Or anyone who is used to womens hockey where it is almost not tolerated at all... If they grew up watching womens hockey and then watched men's hockey ... they'd probably be just aghast.

So we can't really say what "real soccer fans" should feel...only what we ourselves think. We can't necessarily say that a real soccer fan can't accept how the game is....or they could just turn around and tell us we have to accept how it is or we aren't true soccer fans.

And once again, I will disagree that if something is less popular ...it doesn't makes our opinion matter more or being more objective. That would be similar to say someone in a country with little medical care coming here and saying "my opinions on medicine are more valid than yours since medicine is ... less popular (ok not exactly right words) ... than yours." Or if someone came to this board and said "I don't watch tennis, so my opinions on it are better than everyone's here ". Being invested in something doesn't disqualify you from being able to be subjective about it...especially since you will know it better than the other person.

ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:56 am I know we don't like it in North America...that's not what I'm debating. Outside of North America do people feel like this? Obviously may be harder for you or I to find (or understand) if any articles on it. My thought is many of those "real soccer fans" don't consider it cheating and just consider it part of the game.

^ It remains, however, that soccer was never intended to be played that way (with the fake injuries). This includes the present day, where doing that is still against the rules. That it is so tolerated and accepted in practice is completely contrary to the spirit, intention, and purpose of the game.

ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:56 am The third article reminds me of many cases in professional (North American) football where some similar things are celebrated. If a punter is able to draw contact and make themselves look hurt, they are celebrated for "drawing a penalty" for example. And there are the mentioned fake injuries to stop clock, momentum etc. Perhaps we aren't so different here after all.

^ I did mention that cheating - in various ways - also occurs in other sports. But I maintain that it is significantly more obvious, more frequent, and more accepted in soccer than in any other sport that I can think of. From what I have seen and read, soccer has a much worse reputation for diving/fake injuries than any other organized sport played on this planet. If that is not so, please give examples of other organized sports which have as bad or worse a reputation as soccer for faking injuries.

ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:56 am A good comparison we can relate to is ice hockey - the European game in much different than the North American game. I wonder if many Europeans watch North American ice hockey and think all the body checking and physical contact is cheating. We consider it part of the game. Or anyone who is used to womens hockey where it is almost not tolerated at all... If they grew up watching womens hockey and then watched men's hockey ... they'd probably be just aghast.

^ This is a poor comparison, as hockey was originally designed with body checking being an integral, accepted, and legal part of the game. Therefore, anyone viewing it as cheating is applying their own view of what they think the game 'should' be, according to their personal perspective. This is akin to someone saying that foot faults should be allowed in tennis.
Not so for the diving/fake injuries in soccer, which is not the way the sport was designed or intended to be played, and which is illegal to this day, because it is blatantly cheating.

ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:56 am So we can't really say what "real soccer fans" should feel...only what we ourselves think. We can't necessarily say that a real soccer fan can't accept how the game is....or they could just turn around and tell us we have to accept how it is or we aren't true soccer fans.

^ Anyone can say whatever they wish - and people often do so to support their agenda, and/or to justify their position.
The fact remains, however, that the intent of a soccer game was never - and is still not - to win by cheating. Therefore, in MY definition of a true fan of the sport, true fans will want the sport to be authentic and to be played honestly, and will not tolerate the blatant, frequent cheating.

ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:56 am And once again, I will disagree that if something is less popular ...it doesn't makes our opinion matter more or being more objective. That would be similar to say someone in a country with little medical care coming here and saying "my opinions on medicine are more valid than yours since medicine is ... less popular (ok not exactly right words) ... than yours." Or if someone came to this board and said "I don't watch tennis, so my opinions on it are better than everyone's here ". Being invested in something doesn't disqualify you from being able to be subjective about it...especially since you will know it better than the other person.

^ By that logic, and in keeping with current events, who are we to condemn the Chinese government's censorship and lies? If it is normal and accepted by them, we shouldn't 'impose' our views on them, right?
Of course, however, certain basic and universal standards of ethics do exist in life. These revolve largely around honesty. By this measure, then, faking injuries is unethical, dishonest, and wrong.

I believe that in many cases, the more objective perspectives come from those who are outside of the circumstance, but who also understand the circumstance. More often than not, the perspective of those within the circumstance is swayed and influenced by their personal interests in it, and the personal benefits they may derive from taking a certain position. As in "One can't see the forest for the trees."
It seems that North Americans who criticize the fake injuries in soccer understand the game - because one must possess an understanding of the game to see that it is cheating.

I also believe, as I've stated, that those who truly love and care about soccer - no matter what part of the planet they are from - would like to see this practice of faking injuries stopped as soon as possible. Unfortunately, the governing body of soccer - FIFA - has a long-standing reputation of profound corruption, and that is likely one of the primary reasons why the sport of soccer has not yet been cleaned up and rid of the blatant cheating.

Corruption in FIFA?

Corruption, Murder, and the Beautiful Game

Onto curling - where there is no faking of injuries!
Canada's Olympic Trials and the European Curling Championships are both being played now...

Really nobody here is that crazy bothered about soccer theater, same as you in North America are not too upset about flopping in NBA or fighting in NHL.

ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:56 am I know we don't like it in North America...that's not what I'm debating. Outside of North America do people feel like this? Obviously may be harder for you or I to find (or understand) if any articles on it. My thought is many of those "real soccer fans" don't consider it cheating and just consider it part of the game.

...

And that's it. It is not that difficult. It is not considered cheating.

Deuce wrote: ↑Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:00 am Therefore, anyone viewing it as cheating is applying their own view of what they think the game 'should' be, according to their personal perspective.

…which is exactly what you are doing with soccer. That’s the crux of my argument. You are Saying other people can’t use their personal perspective to decide what is cheating… but it is ok for you to do so about soccer.

But yes, onto curling where there are no controversies.. well except for people being shifty about where they live. Although that’s moot for Olympic trials.

ponchi101 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:33 pm

ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:56 am I know we don't like it in North America...that's not what I'm debating. Outside of North America do people feel like this? Obviously may be harder for you or I to find (or understand) if any articles on it. My thought is many of those "real soccer fans" don't consider it cheating and just consider it part of the game.

...

And that's it. It is not that difficult. It is not considered cheating.

^ But it IS cheating.
If the Chinese government blatantly lies, and they don't consider it lying, it is still lying. If there is a white horse in the meadow and someone considers it to be a black horse, it is still a white horse.
Diving/faking injuries is against the rules of the game - therefore, to do it deliberately (and blatantly and repeatedly) is very clearly cheating. It's there in black and white.
And, in my opinion, true fans don't tolerate - or overlook - cheating. True fans seek to eliminate the cheating so that the game can be played fairly - may the best team win, as originally intended, and as still intended based on the rules of the game.

ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:23 pm

Deuce wrote: ↑Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:00 am Therefore, anyone viewing it as cheating is applying their own view of what they think the game 'should' be, according to their personal perspective.

…which is exactly what you are doing with soccer. That’s the crux of my argument. You are Saying other people can’t use their personal perspective to decide what is cheating… but it is ok for you to do so about soccer.

No, I'm not doing that at all. I'm not the one who is defining it as cheating - soccer's OWN RULE BOOK defines it as cheating. Because the intent of the diving/fake injuries is to give your team an unearned and unfair advantage. That's where the difference lies. If someone calls body checking in hockey 'cheating', the argument holds no water because it is in no way against the rules of hockey. However, if someone calls diving/faking injuries in soccer cheating, it is simply an accurate definition of the circumstance - because it IS cheating according to the rules of soccer.

Indeed, I do consider it cheating and extremely poor sportsmanship, as well. But that is my perspective BECAUSE the game is not intended to be played that way according to ITS OWN RULES. I didn't make up the rules of the game - I'm simply saying that diving/faking injuries is showing no respect for the rules or for the game itself. And, yes, in my opinion, that's wrong, selfish, manipulative, deceitful, etc.

So it's not me that is imposing my own personal definition of cheating, it is soccer's own rules that define the diving/fake injuries as cheating. I'm simply saying that the powers that be in soccer should enforce their own rules - because not doing so, and continuing to allow this nonsense, shows that the game does not respect itself, and it lowers it to the level of WWE wrestling - much more 'entertainment' that true, fair sport.
Therefore, regardless of my perspective, or of anyone else's perspective in any country, it is, in fact, cheating.

ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:23 pm But yes, onto curling where there are no controversies.. well except for people being shifty about where they live. Although that’s moot for Olympic trials.

Don't get me started about the ridiculous residency rules.
There was the broom controversy a few years ago, too. But that was solved by making everyone use the same fabric - and even the same colour. So at least curling makes a real (and successful) effort to solve its problems.

Second weekend in a row F1 has me paying attention to the men who drive around in circles at high speed.

So, theoretically, I think it's fair to say most fans, globally, don't like the diving/faking and it's also true that most don't consider it cheating.

In my personal world, I find it hilarious, and, thus, distracting and a bit denigrating for the sport. But if I were picking sport issues to campaign about, I'd start with safety measures to address the proven and measured danger of brain damage from various forms of tackling, including in soccer and the ungracefulness of diving is just not that high on the list.

I see what you're saying... but it's not an 'either/or' scenario. One can object equally to both the concussion/brain damage syndrome and the diving/fake injuries in soccer.
I don't see how the two are related in any way, as one is a manipulative means of gaining an unfair advantage which the teams and players are in complete control of, while the other is a result of playing various sports largely as they are intended to be played, and which, once engaged in the game, the players have little control over.

I agree that more needs to be done to protect players from long-term brain injuries and damage - and a potential early death. I simply don't see the relation between that and the diving/fake injuries in soccer. One can object to both without sacrificing their position on one or on the other.

big night for man utd. villarreal have been a tough team for them and its some random guy in charge who has never had a job before. awesome.

I will never claim to be a fan of F1 but for the last month or so every Sunday my TL is full of tennis fans who follow it. There was a lot of controversy this week about Verstappen's slowing down at this point of the race. Was he trying to cause an accident?