Tennis Random, Random (On Court)

[ti-amie]

I think this would've been a good story if she got along better with some of her peers who may have dropped a dime or if she had waited to flesh out the story and not have the "scoop". This makes it harder for someone to say anything about it now. Or they'll leak it to Clarey or someone along those lines.

[ti-amie]

Class move ATP

[Deuce]

Yeah... maybe in the midst of a global pandemic which is killing hundreds of thousands of people is not quite the best time to start a new tennis association which wants to change many things about the sport.
sigh...

[JazzNU]

[JazzNU]

Now, that meeting sounds rough, and I'm not saying they should've gone about it that way. But based on what him and other players have said in the past, they are fairly ignorant about the finances of the ATP and how things work. And they've been unspeakably unknowledgeable about the way unions work. I've said before many times now, they need to hire someone knowledgeable about tennis and unions to better represent them. Do NBA players represent themselves when they are negotiating with the league? No, they have one of the most skilled trial attorneys in the country going to bat for them. Him and Djokovic seem to think they are the be all and end all of this and have convinced the players things will be a certain way based on basically, what it is they ultimately want, not based on how the ATP and it's tournaments operate and their actual, not their perceived finances.

That they think that right now is the time to complain about prize money helps to show how little they know about the finances of these tournaments. They might claim that this is about just being unhappy with the ranking points, but fellow PTPA member Shapovalov went to yapping and we know good and well this is about money. Miami's reduced prize money has been mentioned plenty, but what isn't mentioned is Miami clearly hustling left and right to make up revenue shortfalls to help with holding this event and still paying decent prize money. It's a shame it's not as much as in years past, but it's hardly pocket change and it's crystal clear to me it could be much lower had they not been hustling this much. For whatever reason, these sorts of things seem to be lost on them.


Also, bottom line, Pospisil wanted a seat at the big boy's table. You can't complain like a little kid at getting what you want. This isn't high school, it's a corporate boardroom. Being insulted by your adversaries? Welcome to negotiations, kid. You ain't seen nothing yet. Get. Representation. You aren't built for this if you're near tears already.

[JazzNU]

This is from the NFL so you have a better idea of how tense negotiations are. Jerry Richardson was the owners of the Panthers at the time. Domonique Foxworth was a longtime NFL player and the NLFPA VP and later NFLPA President. Domonique is the energy you need from your representative in these kind of interactions. Does it sound like he's close to tears? Or is he giving it back as good as he's got and not going to let ole Jerry get the best of him? Tennis players thinking this is some genteel process are seriously unfamiliar with how real negotiations go.

It became obvious that owners wanted to expand the regular season. In one contentious meeting, Richardson discussed the owners' desire to add a 17th game -- reminding the room that, under the terms of the 2006 CBA, the league could activate as many as two extra games without union approval.

"We're not playing 17 games, Jerry," said executive committee member Domonique Foxworth, who now works for ESPN. "It's not going to happen."

Richardson sat straighter in his chair. "We can make you. We don't have to ask you. We're being nice by not saying, 'F--- you, you have to do it.'"

"We're being nice by not telling you, 'F--- you, we're not playing,'" Foxworth responded.

"We're being nice by not telling you, 'F--- you, we'll play with replacement players,'" Richardson said.

"We're being nice by not telling you, 'F--- you, good luck filling up stadiums with Ryan Leaf at quarterback,'" Foxworth replied.

It was getting out of hand.

"That's a lot of f--- yous!" Smith said, adjourning the room.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/309 ... rice-smith

[ti-amie]

From what I can see this person Tweeting as "Big eyes @Me1Be1" is new to Tennis Twitter.

[mmmm8]

I thought the PTPA did hire a law firm back in the summer?

[JazzNU]

They may have, I don't recall. But they either didn't hire enough of a shark or they are underpaying them. The kind of shark you need for labor negotiations would've shut something like this down before it began. I would guess the underpayment to be more likely here. Did you give enough of a retainer to make sure they'd be available at a moment's notice to intervene when stuff like this boils up? Or did you give them some BS consulting fee where you're barely using them except for the minutiae of the contracts? With what the players are attempting, this is hefty retainer territory. Given how often we hear specifically from Novak and Vasek and not anyone else, I'd go with the latter.

But absolutely possible they didn't get someone who is truly up for nasty labor negotiations. Given the tears, I have to wonder about expectations here. Did they hire a suit thinking this was just a regular corporate negotiation? Labor negotiations require a shark, plain and simple.

[ponchi101]

Of they need a Roger Federer, that can casually drop crap on somebody and the entire tennis world will take notice. A Pospisil talks smack about anybody or any tournament and it will make the back page of an online blog. Or here.

[dmforever]

Now, that meeting sounds rough, and I'm not saying they should've gone about it that way. But based on what him and other players have said in the past, they are fairly ignorant about the finances of the ATP and how things work. And they've been unspeakably unknowledgeable about the way unions work. I've said before many times now, they need to hire someone knowledgeable about tennis and unions to better represent them. Do NBA players represent themselves when they are negotiating with the league? No, they have one of the most skilled trial attorneys in the country going to bat for them. Him and Djokovic seem to think they are the be all and end all of this and have convinced the players things will be a certain way based on basically, what it is they ultimately want, not based on how the ATP and it's tournaments operate and their actual, not their perceived finances.

That they think that right now is the time to complain about prize money helps to show how little they know about the finances of these tournaments. They might claim that this is about just being unhappy with the ranking points, but fellow PTPA member Shapovalov went to yapping and we know good and well this is about money. Miami's reduced prize money has been mentioned plenty, but what isn't mentioned is Miami clearly hustling left and right to make up revenue shortfalls to help with holding this event and still paying decent prize money. It's a shame it's not as much as in years past, but it's hardly pocket change and it's crystal clear to me it could be much lower had they not been hustling this much. For whatever reason, these sorts of things seem to be lost on them.


Also, bottom line, Pospisil wanted a seat at the big boy's table. You can't complain like a little kid at getting what you want. This isn't high school, it's a corporate boardroom. Being insulted by your adversaries? Welcome to negotiations, kid. You ain't seen nothing yet. Get. Representation. You aren't built for this if you're near tears already.

I agree with you that they need to hire someone to negotiate for them. However, being yelled at is totally unacceptable in a business meeting or union negotiation meeting. That isn't being part of the "big boys". In the union that I belong to, we have to agree to a certain code of behavior when we are either part of negotiations or just observing. Yelling at someone would get us out of the meeting asap. Being yelled at would do the same for our administrators. I don't know if my experience is typical. I hope it is. In any case, I've lost all respect for Gaudenzi. Even if Pospoisil should know more, and even if he makes mistakes, he's spending a lot of time and energy (which hasn't helped his play) trying to do what's best for the ATP. I don't see him as being spoiled or self serving. It's insane that labor and management are all wrapped up in the same organization. I get that the PTPA may be flawed, perhaps seriously. Maybe it's just a bad first step. But it is a step. I wish the players luck in whatever way they can organize.

Kevin

[JazzNU]

Kevin, your experience is not typical. See the NFL post I included above. There are many other examples, particularly when dealing with sports. Labor negotiations, they aren't pretty. The labor negotiations you are having also aren't anything like what these players are attempting. Plus, you're already IN a union. To go from nothing to into a union? Even nastier.

I have no idea what industry you are in. But I can tell you that while I believe the account of what you've seen. I have a hard time believing your union's heads and your company's heads and representation are completely dignified when the union membership is not there. If they are, it's a rarity where both are mostly on the same page and not a lot contentious points need to be hammered out.

I can't stress enough how what Pospisil described is child's play. I had more heated exchanges than that working Clinic when I was still in school. This is nothing. And sorry, but him making mistakes? Truly that's on him. He signed up for this. If he didn't know what he signed up for, again, that's on him. They put themselves into these leadership roles saying they could do it. They need to rise to the occasion if they want anything to come of it. Throwing a tantrum on court because he got yelled at the day before? Not the look of good leadership. If that was me they were yelling at the night before? I'd push back forcefully similar to Domonique in the NFL. If things were getting out of control. I'd end the meeting immediately and call whoever the heck these guys have hired to represent them. But I wouldn't be showing any version of the weakness we are seeing from Vasek. The ATP is looking for this, will feed off of this. PTPA just blinked and that's just not good.

FWIW, Djokovic is an a-hole at his core and that comes in handy. I'm guessing Novak would've responded more forcefully when pushed and we would be hearing a much different story today. Vasek exposed himself here as a shaky self-appointed leadership selection. He's always seemed like a nice guy. Nice guys can definitely get eaten alive in a labor negotiation context. Like I said, you need to be a shark.

Also, was the ATP leadership always going to be in Miami? Or they just showed up unexpectedly? I imagine it's the former because I seem to remember this being the norm in years past at both IW and Miami. A gross miscalculation on Novak's part to skip Miami if they were always going to be here.

[ti-amie]

I think there is always a big ATP meeting in Miami so you're right. Djokovic bailing is kind of odd.

[JazzNU]

FWIW, I'm just sharing information as I see it. I don't have a dog in this race. If they end up unionizing or if the other idea of combining the tours happens, whatever. As long as the players as a whole actually know what they are getting into. I don't have much faith that they do because from what I've seen, they like the idea of what is being sold to them, but very few have been able to articulate actual detailed legal and financial knowledge of what they are trying to do. There were quotes when the PTPA formed where they essentially admitted as much from players that joined in. They should all have 250 page booklets detailing every step.

That's concerning. When you try to blow up the status quo, I'd like it if you were going in with your eyes wide open. Because I want them to know what they stand to lose, not just what they stand to gain. Every single player that is on board with this unionization either formally or informally should have a 250-page booklet at home and on their computers detailing every single aspect of what it is the union is trying to do, how it will interface with the ATP, the tournaments, the umpires, prize money, penalties, healthcare, time off. Every minute benefit to unionizing, and what happens if that part of the negotiation doesn't work should be spelled out in great detail.

I don't have any ill will towards them trying to form a union or whatever else. I'm just seeing a highly flawed process. I'm no fan of Novak's but I mostly don't even care that this is his thing. As long as this doesn't involve Mr. Aggravated Assault rising to the helm eventually, I don't care if this works for them. Again, I just hope they know what they are doing. Quotes from random players, but also from Novak himself have never led me to believe that they actually do.

[ponchi101]

I believe your last lines are the core. What is it this PTPA wants? How are they different than the ATP? What is the plan?
Because I don't know, and we have been on top of this from the beginning.