Talk About Tennis 2.0

Appearance fees are a type of built-in conflict of interest. You get your appearance money basically as long as you don't pull out of the tournament more than maybe a week before it starts.
If you lose in the first round - whether by being beaten, by default, or by retirement - you still have your appearance money - because you've 'done your job', which requires no effort at all, as the reward of appearance money is simply for having entered the tournament (and not withdrawn), and thus helped to sell 'X' number of tickets.

In all pro sports today, the money is nothing but a symbol of status. It's all about ego. It's a pissing contest - nothing more.
In team sports, 'player A' desperately needs to be paid more than 'player B' if 'player A' had 3 more RBIs, or 2 more goals, or 15 more rushing yards, than 'player B'.
It's the same with appearance money... Roger needs to get more than anyone else in order to retain his '#1 status'.
The actual amount of money is irrelevant, as these men and women all have enough money to live several lifetimes in luxury. There's no way anyone can spend the amount of money they have.
The pissing contest extends to material things - if 'player A' feels he's better than 'player B', he must announce that to the world - so if 'player B' has 2 Ferraris, then 'player A' must have 3 Lamborghinis. It's all about how you look compared to others.
It's all about ego. Even in tennis.

Devil's advocate: Tournament X will make 50% more money by putting me on their promotional poster. And I am not going to get a slice of THAT pie?
Sure.

ponchi101 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:51 pm Devil's advocate: Tournament X will make 50% more money by putting me on their promotional poster. And I am not going to get a slice of THAT pie?
Sure.

Plus, taking Roger as an example, he does a lot more off court & that's part of the appearance fee compensation.

skatingfan wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:53 pm

ponchi101 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:51 pm Devil's advocate: Tournament X will make 50% more money by putting me on their promotional poster. And I am not going to get a slice of THAT pie?
Sure.

Plus, taking Roger as an example, he does a lot more off court & that's part of the appearance fee compensation.

Doesn’t Roger do these things anyway, and the appearance fees are incidental? That’s the way he’s always been painted

Liamvalid wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 6:30 am Doesn’t Roger do these things anyway, and the appearance fees are incidental? That’s the way he’s always been painted

That's certainly part of his personality, but it has also helped him to create a loyal fanbase around the world, which is why he gets the large appearance fees.

History too. When appearances started, in some tournaments first round prize money was in the hundreds of dollars. Not that Borg or any of the big guys were worried about losing to Jucho Tornero in the first round of the Conde de Godo but, if that were to happen, going to the tournament would have cost them money (tickets for the team, hotel reservations for a week, all the logistics, the champagne and caviar, etc).
So it was also unfair to the lower players as they had more of a chance of losing in the first round AND not have an appearance fee, but the top players used that argument as further proof they needed the fees.
Remember: Connors at one time said, after losing in the first round, that he did not know what made him sicker: losing in the first round, or cashing his first round money. He was in the camp that first round losers should get no money.

Top players make vast amounts of money, but costs of doing business for a top 20 player are high as well. There was recently a long interview with Daria Kasatkina and she revealed that in her best year (2018) she spent 600k for tennis related expenses. That includes salaries for the entire team, coach's share of winnings (typically 7-10%), travel for the entire team etc. Sure there was still left over for high end lifestyle too.

Liamvalid wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 6:30 am Doesn’t Roger do these things anyway, and the appearance fees are incidental? That’s the way he’s always been painted

I think it depends on what you're talking about. In general, I would say no he's not doing that anyway or at least he hasn't and not gotten paid for it in a long, long while. But the persona he has crafted seems to make people think he's doing things and not getting paid for it. Like, one might assume, he's home in Basel, he's doing promotion to help his hometown tournament. And it's like yeah, but he's getting about $1 million dollars to do whatever you're seeing around town so assuming he'd do it anyway is a stretch.

I remember at Wimbledon in 2019 people were lauding how gracious he was to personally congratulate Coco on her success at the tournament and it was painted as this, "well he's just that kind of nice guy" and then later on he was publicly urging the WTA to lift restrictions on her play. And it was painted as, oh, well he sees the talent and wants her to be able to flourish. And yeah, of course he sees her talent she's not a stranger, she'd already been signed to Team8 by the time she had her run at Wimbledon, but it was not remotely portrayed in this manner. He knew what he was doing, he knows the attention he gets. Not nearly as altruistic as people make things about him out to be. But he's crafted a persona so, "he's just that kind of guy" is what leads and will continue to.


And FWIW, while others may be more critical if they know this side of Roger, it has never been a criticism of mine. Federer is a brilliant businessman and one of the most impressive things about him as far as I'm concerned. He knows how to print money and I'm never anything but impressed with how craftily he does so.

JazzNU wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:26 pm

Liamvalid wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 6:30 am Doesn’t Roger do these things anyway, and the appearance fees are incidental? That’s the way he’s always been painted

I think it depends on what you're talking about. In general, I would say no he's not doing that anyway or at least he hasn't and not gotten paid for it in a long, long while. But the persona he has crafted seems to make people think he's doing things and not getting paid for it. Like, one might assume, he's home in Basel, he's doing promotion to help his hometown tournament. And it's like yeah, but he's getting about $1 million dollars to do whatever you're seeing around town so assuming he'd do it anyway is a stretch.

I remember at Wimbledon in 2019 people were lauding how gracious he was to personally congratulate Coco on her success at the tournament and it was painted as this, "well he's just that kind of nice guy" and then later on he was publicly urging the WTA to lift restrictions on her play. And it was painted as, oh, well he sees the talent and wants her to be able to flourish. And yeah, of course he sees her talent she's not a stranger, she'd already been signed to Team8 by the time she had her run at Wimbledon, but it was not remotely portrayed in this manner. He knew what he was doing, he knows the attention he gets. Not nearly as altruistic as people make things about him out to be. But he's crafted a persona so, "he's just that kind of guy" is what leads and will continue to.


And FWIW, while others may be more critical if they know this side of Roger, it has never been a criticism of mine. Federer is a brilliant businessman and one of the most impressive things about him as far as I'm concerned. He knows how to print money and I'm never anything but impressed with how craftily he does so.

People who pointed this out on Tennis Twitter got called haters for not buying into the "Fed God" mythology. The ATP and what passes for tennis journalism has aided in the creation of this persona.

Excellent points here

ti-amie wrote: ↑Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:44 pm

... and this ^ despite the introduction of the 25 second clock and other measures to speed up/shorten matches.

And I'm quite fine with it. The longer the match, the closer it must be. The closer it is, the more interesting it is.
If those with short attention spans don't like it, too bad - they should go play a video game instead of watching tennis.

This is a propos of absolutely nothing, but...

Why is the 3-letter code for Spain after Rafa's name ESP? Obviously it's the first three letters in that country's name in its native language, but even if you just look at countries that use the Roman alphabet, Hungary isn't MAG , Sweden isn't SVE, and Germany isn't DEU. I can't think of another country that would use SPA. I'm just curious.

Kevin

dmforever wrote: ↑Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:56 pm This is a propos of absolutely nothing, but...

Why is the 3-letter code for Spain after Rafa's name ESP? Obviously it's the first three letters in that country's name in its native language, but even if you just look at countries that use the Roman alphabet, Hungary isn't MAG , Sweden isn't SVE, and Germany isn't DEU. I can't think of another country that would use SPA. I'm just curious.

Kevin

Not about the native language. They are their IOC country codes. Traditionally, most IOC codes are based off the French spelling of the country name, but not all go by that. Not sure how long it lasted, but at one point IOC country codes altered based on the host country's language.

I've watched a few too many Olympics Opening Ceremonies.

JazzNU wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:06 am

dmforever wrote: ↑Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:56 pm This is a propos of absolutely nothing, but...

Why is the 3-letter code for Spain after Rafa's name ESP? Obviously it's the first three letters in that country's name in its native language, but even if you just look at countries that use the Roman alphabet, Hungary isn't MAG , Sweden isn't SVE, and Germany isn't DEU. I can't think of another country that would use SPA. I'm just curious.

Kevin

Not about the native language. They are their IOC country codes. Traditionally, most IOC codes are based off the French spelling of the country name, but not all go by that. Not sure how long it lasted, but at one point IOC country codes altered based on the host country's language.

I've watched a few too many Olympics Opening Ceremonies.

Hmm, at first glance they don't appear to be widely based on French. The US certainly isn't. Nor are any of the others I mentioned. They all seem to be based on the English spelling except for Spain, hence my question. I'm in my 50's, and I don't think I've ever seen Hungary as MAG or Germany as DEU. It's weird how Spain is the outlier.

Kevin