by ti-amie Court PHILIPPE-CHATRIER

DAY SESSION - FOURTH ROUND

Women’s Singles

--- V. Kudermetova (29) vs USA M. Keys (22)
Men’s Singles
UPCOMING
DEN H.Rune vs GRE S. Tsitsipas (4)
Women’s Singles
UPCOMING
POL I. Swiatek (1) vs CHN Q.Zheng
Men’s Singles
UPCOMING
NIGHT SESSION - FOURTH ROUND
Not before 20:45
CRO M.Cilic (20) vs ---D. Medvedev (2)

Court SUZANNE-LENGLEN

FOURTH ROUND

Women’s Singles
--- D. Kasatkina (20) vs ITA C. Giorgi (28)
Men’s Singles
UPCOMING
NOR C. Ruud (8) vs POL H. Hurkacz (12)
Women’s Singles
UPCOMING
USA J. Pegula (11) vs ROU I. Begu
Men’s Singles
UPCOMING
--- A.Rublev (7) vs ITA J. Sinner (11)

Court SIMONNE-MATHIEU

Women’s Doubles
THIRD ROUND
HUN A.Bondar/BEL G.Minnen vs POL A. Rosolska/NZL E. Routliffe
Mixed Doubles
UPCOMING
QUARTERFINALS
USA D. Krawczyk (4)/GBR N.Skupski (4) vs NOR U. Eikeri/BEL J. Vliegen
Women’s Doubles
UPCOMING
THIRD ROUND
Not before 14:30
CHN Y.Xu (13)/CHN Z.Yang (13) vs --- V.Kudermetova (2)/BEL E. Mertens (2)
Men’s Doubles
UPCOMING
QUARTERFINALS
GBR L. Glasspool/FIN H. Heliovaara vs IND R. Bopanna (16)/NED M. Middelkoop (16)

Court 14

Mixed Doubles
QUARTERFINALS
BRA B. Haddad Maia/BRA B. Soares vs USA N. Melichar-Martinez/GER K. Krawietz
Mixed Doubles
UPCOMING
QUARTERFINALS
AUS/S. Stosur/AUS M. Ebden vs JPN E. Shibahara/(2) NED W. Koolhof (2)
Men’s Doubles
UPCOMING
QUARTERFINALS
ESA M. Arevalo (12)/NED JJ. Rojer (12) vs BRA R. Matos/ESP D. Vega Hernandez

Court 7

Girls’ Singles
FIRST ROUND
FRA M. Ngijol Carre (W) vs BRA O. Carneiro (W)
Boys’ Singles
UPCOMING
FIRST ROUND
FRA S. Cuenin vs SVK P. Nad
Girls’ Singles
UPCOMING
SECOND ROUND
AUS T. Preston vs FRA S.Iliev
Boys’ Singles
UPCOMING
SECOND ROUND
FRA W. Jucha vs SUI D. Dietrich
Girls’ Doubles
UPCOMING
FIRST ROUND
--- M.Andreeva vs CZE T.Valentova vs FRA L.Pawlak (W)/FRA A. Soulie (W)

Court 6

Boys’ Singles
FIRST ROUND
FRA A. Ghibaudo (W) vs AUS J.Jin
Girls’ Singles
UPCOMING
FIRST ROUND
PER L.Perez Alarcon vs FRA Y. Bartashevich (16)
Boys’ Singles
UPCOMING
SECOND ROUND
POL O.Pieczkowski vs CZE J. Mensik (3)
Boys’ Doubles
UPCOMING
FIRST ROUND
THA T.Nirundorn/POL B. Zgola vs FRA A.Gea (W)/FRA A. Ghibaudo (W)
Girls’ Singles
UPCOMING
SECOND ROUND
SVK N. Vargova vs CZE D. Salkova

Court 3

Girls’ Singles
FIRST ROUND
BEL H.Vandewinkel vs USA A. Guichard (SE)
Boys’ Singles
UPCOMING
SECOND ROUND
BEL GA. Bailly vs CZE J. Nicod (16)
Girls’ Singles
UPCOMING
SECOND ROUND
SVK N. Daubnerova (12) vs ARG L. Moyano
Girls’ Doubles
UPCOMING
FIRST ROUND
CAN M.Kupres/GBR RA.Stoiber vs MAR A. El Aouni USA K.Quevedo
Girls’ Doubles
UPCOMING
FIRST ROUND
ARG L. Moyano/PER L. Perez Alarcon vs BUL D. Glushkova/JPN S. Ishii

Court 4

Boys’ Singles
FIRST ROUND
USA O.Colak vs POL B.Zgola (Q)
Girls’ Singles
UPCOMING
FIRST ROUND
GBR RA.Stoiber vs TUR A.Mert
Boys’ Singles
UPCOMING
SECOND ROUND
MEX R. Pacheco Mendez vs --- Y. Demin
Girls’ Doubles
UPCOMING
FIRST ROUND
--- A.Ibragimova/TUR A.Mert vs CZE N. Bartunkova (2)/SUI C. Naef (2)
Boys’ Doubles
UPCOMING
FIRST ROUND
USA N. Basavareddy (3)/USA V. Lilov (3) vs USA N.Godsick/POR H. Rocha

Court 5

Girls’ Singles
FIRST ROUND
JPN S.Saito vs MAR A. El Aouni (Q)
Boys’ Singles
UPCOMING
FIRST ROUND
USA N. Basavareddy (5) vs SUI M. Brunold
Girls’ Singles
UPCOMING
SECOND ROUND
GER C. Kuhl vs USA L. Hovde (6)
Boys’ Doubles
UPCOMING
SWE S. Eriksson/NAM CH.Van Schalkwyk vs CYP C.Koshis/ESP D. Merida Aguilar
Girls’ Doubles
UPCOMING
CAN K. Cross (8)/CAN V. Mboko (8) vs SUI C. Fontenel/ARG S. Sierra

Court 8

Boys’ Singles
FIRST ROUND
MKD K.Ivanovski vs BRA J. Fonseca (W)
Girls’ Singles
UPCOMING
FIRST ROUND
CZE B. Fruhvirtova (4) vs ARG S. Sierra
Boys’ Singles
UPCOMING
SECOND ROUND
BOL JC. Prado Angelo vs POL M. Pawelski
Boys’ Doubles
UPCOMING
FIRST ROUND
USA O. Colak/CAN J.Weekes vs SVK PB. Privara (7)/CRO D. Prizmic (7)
Girls’ Doubles
UPCOMING
FIRST ROUND
CZE S. Bejlek (1)/CZE L. Havlickova (1) vs --- A. Gureva/GRE M.Laki

Court 9

Girls’ Singles
FIRST ROUND
SUI C. Naef (7) vs GER E. Seidel
Boys’ Singles
UPCOMING
SECOND ROUND
CRO M. Poljicak (4) vs USA M. Zheng
Girls’ Singles
UPCOMING
SECOND ROUND
--- M. Andreeva (14) vs FRA J. Lim
Boys’ Doubles
UPCOMING
FIRST ROUND
SUI K. Feldbausch (6)/FRA P. Inchauspe (6) vs USA A. Michelsen/USA M. Zheng
Girls’ Doubles
UPCOMING
FIRST ROUND
FRA A. Lew Yan Foon (W)/FRA J. Lim (W) vs AUS C. Kempenaers-Pocz/AUS T. Preston

Court 10

Boys’ Singles
FIRST ROUND
ESP D.Merida Aguilar vs --- E. Arutiunian
Girls’ Singles
UPCOMING
SECOND ROUND
--- D. Shnaider (5) vs GER JLS.Steur
Boys’ Singles
UPCOMING
SECOND ROUND
CZE H. Barton vs PER I. Buse (11)
Girls’ Doubles
UPCOMING
FIRST ROUND
--- D. Shnaider (5)/BEL H. Vandewinkel (5) vs AND V. Jimenez Kasintseva/FRA M. Ngijol Carre
Boys’ Doubles
UPCOMING
FIRST ROUND
BEL A.Blockx/--- Y. Demin vs PAR AD. Vallejo (8)/PAR MA. Vergara Del Puerto (8)

Court 11

Girls’ Singles
FIRST ROUND
--- A.Ibragimova (Q) vs HUN L. Udvardy
Boys’ Singles
UPCOMING
SECOND ROUND
LTU E. Butvilas (9) vs PAR MA. Vergara Del Puerto
Girls’ Singles
UPCOMING
SECOND ROUND
CRO P. Marcinko (1) vs KEN A. Okutoyi
Boys’ Doubles
UPCOMING
FIRST ROUND
USA L. Boika/AUS J.Jin vs USA B. Kuzuhara (4)/HKG CLC. Wong (4)
Boys’ Doubles
UPCOMING
FIRST ROUND
ARG JM. La Serna/ARG L. Midon vs MEX R. Pacheco Mendez/USA C.Williams

Court 13

Boys’ Singles

FIRST ROUND
SLO B. Artnak (13) vs FRA P. Barbier Gazeu (W)
Boys’ Singles
UPCOMING
FIRST ROUND
FRA A. Gea (W) vs SWE S. Eriksson (Q)
Girls’ Singles
UPCOMING
SECOND ROUND
FRA TS. Rakotomanga Rajaonah vs CZE S. Bejlek (10)
Girls’ Doubles
UPCOMING
FIRST ROUND
USA A. Blokhina/USA S. Macavei vs FRA O. Boullay (W)/FRA T. Ntondele Zinga (W)
Boys’ Doubles
UPCOMING
FIRST ROUND
LTU E. Butvilas (1)/CRO M. Poljicak (1) vs FRA G. Debru (W)/FRA L. Massard (W)

by ashkor87 looking forward to Rune.. we need new faces like him..I expect Zheng to give Swiatek her first real test, and I expect Sloane to beat Coco - she did beat her last time, but, of course, hard courts suits Sloane's game a lot better than clay does so Coco could do better than last time.. I am relying on my belief that Sloane knows how to exploit weakenesses (like Kerber has always done) and will be able to take Coco's forehand apart.. should be interesting in any case..
exploiting weaknesses is a lot more difficult than it seems, of course - whenever I have tried it, in a competitive match, it has always backfired on me - I overthink everything and miss the easy opportunities.. let us see, I am sure Sloane is amarter than I am..!

by JTContinental Pam Shriver just referred to Kasatkina's play style as "coy."

by JTContinental Madison Keys clubbing the ball through the court so far and wins the first set 6-1

by meganfernandez

JTContinental wrote:Pam Shriver just referred to Kasatkina's play style as "coy."

I like it.


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by JTContinental Kudermetova being much more aggressive to start the second set and it is paying off with an early break

by ashkor87 The kind of errors Kudermetova is making at the net really illustrates the difference between volleying in singles and in doubles! In doubles, it is mainly reflex volleying, in singles you have to volley on the move...have to be stable and balanced, and use a lot of touch ...

by JTContinental Kudermetova needs 7 set points, but takes the second 6-3. This match has been fun

by meganfernandez

ashkor87 wrote:The kind of errors Kudermetova is making at the net really illustrates the difference between volleying in singles and in doubles! In doubles, it is mainly reflex volleying, in singles you have to volley on the move...have to be stable and balanced, and use a lot of touch ...

Great point.


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by meganfernandez

JTContinental wrote:Kudermetova needs 7 set points, but takes the second 6-3. This match has been fun

I’m so on edge watching Maddy, because I want her to win when she plays like she has in this tournament … but I don’t have a lot of confidence in her decision-making under pressure.


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by Suliso I don't like her chances now. Kasatkina vs Kudermetova QF... Not obvious at all 10 days ago.

by ponchi101

ashkor87 wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 11:05 am The kind of errors Kudermetova is making at the net really illustrates the difference between volleying in singles and in doubles! In doubles, it is mainly reflex volleying, in singles you have to volley on the move...have to be stable and balanced, and use a lot of touch ...

Having always been a serve and volley player (when young and could afford it), I was never comfy in doubles. You start your volleying position from a stand still, as opposed to S&V, where you are moving forward and that already gives you some momentum to hit the ball.
They are different kinds of volley, indeed.

by ponchi101

Suliso wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 11:36 am I don't like her chances now. Kasatkina vs Kudermetova QF... Not obvious at all 10 days ago.

Keys out. After being so tough in her Rybakina match (and knocking a few of us out), she delivers a 1-6 set in the third.
She is so streaky, because we all agree: her strokes are superb. When they land in.
About "not obvious 10 days ago". Nope. But if you had told me OTHER Vs OTHER, I would have not been surprised

by ponchi101 What would anybody consider Rune's main weapon to be? Watching him against Tsitsipas, and he seems like a fairly standard baseliner. Can't see a great shot in his arsenal.

by Suliso What is Tsitsipas main weapon?

by ponchi101 I think his forehand is pretty clean, and he has the best volleys of his group. When he can start using his FH, he can dictate.

by Suliso I'm in a train right now and thus unable to watch. Why do you think is Tsitsipas behind right now?

by ponchi101 Rune is not missing anything. Very few UE's, and he has good control of moving Tsitsipas side to side. He is not going to the lines but a good meter inside them. And Stefanos is simply not moving HIM that much.

by ashkor87

Suliso wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 2:06 pm What is Tsitsipas main weapon?

Spin, maybe?

by Suliso This is a coming out party for Rune. From now on he'll be taken very seriously by top players. I'd not rule out more wins at this RG either.

by dryrunguy I thought for sure that match would get away from Rune. But he held on with a little help from Stefanos. Good effort.

by JazzNU

Suliso wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 2:06 pm What is Tsitsipas main weapon?

Brad Gilbert has talked on broadcasts in the past with glowing remarks about his forehand. Can hit inside-in and inside-out and gives him a great advantage.

by meganfernandez

ponchi101 wrote:What would anybody consider Rune's main weapon to be? Watching him against Tsitsipas, and he seems like a fairly standard baseliner. Can't see a great shot in his arsenal.

The backhand is Rune’s strength, but it didn’t take anything special to beat Tsitsipas today. He was flat and made a ton of errors. Didn’t open the court much at all.

Suliso wrote: I'd not rule out more wins at this RG either.

Same. This was the biggest upset of the tournament so far, too, men or women. I’d tip Ruud in the next match but another upset won’t surprise me. Friend I watched with compared Rune to Hewitt.

Rune and Ruud will sound like the same person from the announcer. Not a match I want to watch.

by ponchi101

Suliso wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 3:16 pm This is a coming out party for Rune. From now on he'll be taken very seriously by top players. I'd not rule out more wins at this RG either.

Ruud is beatable. That is his next round.
Everybody else on that side too. So, shall we root for a 19 yo final between Holger and Carlitos? I could go for that...

by Suliso That would certainly be some much needed fresh air

by JazzNU

meganfernandez wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 3:19 pm
Same. This was the biggest upset of the tournament so far, too, men or women. I’d tip Ruud in the next match but another upset won’t surprise me. Friend I watched with compared Rune to Hewitt.

I'd stay far away from that comparison if I were him...

by ashkor87 It is just the cap on backwards I think

by Suliso

meganfernandez wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 3:19 pm

Suliso wrote: I'd not rule out more wins at this RG either.

Same. This was the biggest upset of the tournament so far, too, men or women. I’d tip Ruud in the next match but another upset won’t surprise me. Friend I watched with compared Rune to Hewitt.

I still think Jabeur losing in the first round to no one in particular was a bigger one.

by Suliso As predicted Swiatek has a tough time with Zheng. If she come true the title is hers.

by ponchi101 Iga is not playing well. 16 UE's already by the 5-5. And Zheng is matching her power.
I agree that Jabeur's lost was more of an upset. I can't even remember who she lost to.
(Which, of course, may be a statement about my memory, not the quality of the upset).

by Suliso The answer starts to look like no...

by JazzNU Really not a fan of the timing of that shoe change from Iga.

by ponchi101

JazzNU wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 4:54 pm Really not a fan of the timing of that shoe change from Iga.

Apparently she broke a lace.
Iga had 5 set points. Was up 5-3 in the TB. Zheng only had one set point.
If Iga can cut down on the errors, ok. But her power is not bothering Zheng one bit.

by Suliso Well, she answers with a bagel. Is that going to be enough for a momentum in the third?

by JazzNU I missed that Sinner was injured or re-aggravated something in his last match. Seems like if he was healthy, he was running away with this match against Rublev. A shame.

by Suliso A shame indeed... I still expect GS titles from Sinner. As long as he can stay somewhat healthy.

by ponchi101

Suliso wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 5:40 pm Well, she answers with a bagel. Is that going to be enough for a momentum in the third?

Zheng is nowhere close to the level of the first set. This might be over soon.
And yes. Iga's rule: "One set is mine, a bagel or a breadstick. The other two are for grasp".

by Suliso It's a career first GS QF not only for Rune, but for Ruud as well. There will be one very lucky semi finalists or maybe even a finalist. Medvedev not that strong on clay.

by Suliso

ponchi101 wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 5:50 pm Zheng is nowhere close to the level of the first set. This might be over soon.
And yes. Iga's rule: "One set is mine, a bagel or a breadstick. The other two are for grasp".

This battle is not over yet.

by Suliso It did end quickly when it did. I see the next two matches as easier for Iga. Pegula doesn't have what it takes and Kasatkina/Kudermetova even less so.

by meganfernandez

ponchi101 wrote:Iga is not playing well. 16 UE's already by the 5-5. And Zheng is matching her power.
I agree that Jabeur's lost was more of an upset. I can't even remember who she lost to.
(Which, of course, may be a statement about my memory, not the quality of the upset).

Linette. I’d say Tsitsipas was way more of a favorite to reach the final from his half than Jabeur was, hence bigger upset.

by meganfernandez

Suliso wrote:It did end quickly when it did. I see the next two matches as easier for Iga. Pegula doesn't have what it takes and Kasatkina/Kudermetova even less so.

I definitely give either K’s a chance. Kudermetova looked great for two sets today.


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by Suliso You're just more generous with giving chances when they're small

by ti-amie Ons was a big upset but she had played a lot of tennis coming into RG and I wasn't that surprised that she had nothing left after a very short rest between her last tournament and her first round match.

I think Stefanos was the bigger upset. No insult meant to anyone in the bottom half but Stefanos was the big dog there and a lot of fans thought he had a cakewalk to the Quarters and beyond. Stefanos has a nice game. What's lacking is between his ears. Best of three he's through. Best of five and it's a crap shoot with him. I wasn't surprised Rune found a way.

Does anyone know why Rune is so hated by some of the folks on Tennis Twitter? What shenanigans has he pulled to cause some to direct so much vitriol towards him?

by Suliso The only thing I know off was him using (and being fined for) a homophobic slur in a challenger last year. Not great of course, but lets see if he can stay "clean" from now on in the big league.

by Suliso Tsitsipas is definitely a much bigger star than Jabeur. On the other hand he lost much later and to a much better player. Had he lost to someone like Zapata Miralles in R1 it would have been an upset of the year.

by ponchi101 About Rune's unpopularity.
I would only say that It wasn't a homophobic slur. He said, TO HIMSELF, "Don't play like (a small cat)", although he was not as elegant in his choice of words as Daniiil. He did not aim it to anybody; he was talking to himself.
As Suliso says, nothing else comes to mind. And I think he had not even turned 18 yet.

by Deuce Zheng hurt her thigh early in the 2nd set... but didn't seem all that hampered by it in the 3rd.

I see parallels between Keys and Anisimova... both have the strokes and the game to be dominant, but are too fragile psychologically.

Suliso wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 2:06 pm What is Tsitsipas main weapon?

His father.

by meganfernandez Zheng, another pioneer in breaking the period stigma. Pretty amazing for her take a set off Swiatek having bad cramps.

by JazzNU

ponchi101 wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 7:13 pm About Rune's unpopularity.
I would only say that It wasn't a homophobic slur. He said, TO HIMSELF, "Don't play like (a small cat)", although he was not as elegant in his choice of words as Daniiil. He did not aim it to anybody; he was talking to himself.
As Suliso says, nothing else comes to mind. And I think he had not even turned 18 yet.

It was a homophonic slur. You're downplaying to a pretty decent extent what he was yelling. He was fined by the ATP for the things that he said, there's coverage of it. There's video of it. There's Danish people that have translated it multiple times. It's not really in question what he said, and it wasn't just what you wrote.

People barely knew it happened because it was on the Challenger tour, but news of it spread pretty well on Tennis Social Media soon after it occurred and because of the video in particular, it's known, but not by the general tennis viewing audience. He's gonna take a few more licks on this now that he's getting to be more in the public eye.

People will move on eventually, but it wasn't a good look and it wasn't long enough ago for it to be a non-issue. He didn't help matters in terms of Tennis Social Media moving on from this by giving one of the sh!ttiest apologies ever on his IG afterwards.

https://www.ubitennis.net/2021/06/holge ... c-remarks/

by dmforever "Don't play like a small cat" isn't homophobic at all. Misogynist, but not homophobic. It wouldn't make sense to say that he was homophobic if that was all that he had said. He also said "You play like a bundle of sticks" and "Go you bundle of sticks". You're right that saying it to himself isn't as bad as if he said it to someone else, but it's still bad and definitely a slur. And yes, you are right, we've probably all done bad things when we were teens, but there's bad and then there's bad.

If that was a one off, then people will forget. We'll see. I'm skeptical that someone who uses a word like that at his age is not a male member. Hopefully I'm wrong.

Kevin

by ponchi101 The guy was 17, and he is not an American. You have to understand that a lot of people that learn English will do so and watch a lot of American movies, and will not know the nuances of a word because they see it used in situations that are not real. Confusion happens, and I talk from experience.
And, different cultural backgrounds. I know this board is mostly American, but this idea that everything is offensive and everybody has to apologize all the time is uniquely American. In other cultures, what you say about yourself, well, is about yourself. Nobody should be offended by that, unless you are so insane you get offended by what you tell yourself.

by JazzNU

ponchi101 wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 12:33 am The guy was 17, and he is not an American. You have to understand that a lot of people that learn English will do so and watch a lot of American movies, and will not know the nuances of a word because they see it used in situations that are not real. Confusion happens, and I talk from experience.
And, different cultural backgrounds. I know this board is mostly American, but this idea that everything is offensive and everybody has to apologize all the time is uniquely American. In other cultures, what you say about yourself, well, is about yourself. Nobody should be offended by that, unless you are so insane you get offended by what you tell yourself.

I mentioned that many Danish people were translating what he said for fans early on and they were disappointed to hear him using the words. This isn't just about an American perspective.

by jazzyg I was not that surprised by Tsitsipas losing because he played an awful match against Zverev (which he won) in Rome before playing another awful match against Djokovic (which he lost, badly) in the final. He has the full package when he is playing well, but he was very inconsistent on his forehand and was winning points primarily by playing defense. Rune, after losing his first three matches on clay this year, is 20-4 since then.

Jabeur losing to Linette was shocking to me, but I agree she may have been overcooked, a factor I almost always disregard but one that I shouldn't.

On another note, I like Cilic to get to the final. He's capable of falling apart, particularly with his forehand, but he appears to be in that mode he gets into every few years at an odd slam where he is rock solid. If he wins two more matches, he will join the Big 3 plus Murray as the only active players to appear in all four slam finals.

I had Kasatkina making the semis when the tournament started. She looked really good in the lead-up tournaments. But I was wrong about almost everyone else, with Gauff the only other quarterfinalist I predicted other than Swiatek.

by JTContinental In her press conference yesterday, Zheng mentioned that menstrual cramps were hampering her in the second and third sets of her match against Swiatek.

by JTContinental

ponchi101 wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 12:33 am The guy was 17, and he is not an American. You have to understand that a lot of people that learn English will do so and watch a lot of American movies, and will not know the nuances of a word because they see it used in situations that are not real. Confusion happens, and I talk from experience.
And, different cultural backgrounds. I know this board is mostly American, but this idea that everything is offensive and everybody has to apologize all the time is uniquely American. In other cultures, what you say about yourself, well, is about yourself. Nobody should be offended by that, unless you are so insane you get offended by what you tell yourself.

I dunno--slurs are still slurs even if you are saying them about yourself. I don't think that's a uniquely American concept, actually, and if you put that sh*t out into the world, the world is going to rightfully respond.

His comment implies small bundles of sticks can't play tennis well. However, I always play tennis like a full bundle of small sticks, and I usually win.

by dmforever

ponchi101 wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 12:33 am The guy was 17, and he is not an American. You have to understand that a lot of people that learn English will do so and watch a lot of American movies, and will not know the nuances of a word because they see it used in situations that are not real. Confusion happens, and I talk from experience.
And, different cultural backgrounds. I know this board is mostly American, but this idea that everything is offensive and everybody has to apologize all the time is uniquely American. In other cultures, what you say about yourself, well, is about yourself. Nobody should be offended by that, unless you are so insane you get offended by what you tell yourself.

He wasn't speaking in English. It was his L1.

And this comment is EXACTLY what I was referring to in other posts about this site not being nearly as gay friendly as you think it is. I super super resent being told that I shouldn't be offended by someone yelling a really homophobic term, even if it's not directed at me. Even if the person is saying it to himself. I guess I'm that insane.

Kevin

by ponchi101 And aren't you making my point? You are American and you are offended by what somebody said to himself. Not aimed at anybody else other than the same person that said it.
And in other cultures, we don't see it that way.
If this forum is not open to any sexual inclination somebody may have, well, I wonder what else we could do.

by dmforever

ponchi101 wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 9:27 pm And aren't you making my point? You are American and you are offended by what somebody said to himself. Not aimed at anybody else other than the same person that said it.
And in other cultures, we don't see it that way.
If this forum is not open to any sexual inclination somebody may have, well, I wonder what else we could do.

It's not just an American thing. The article that Jazz posted said that Danes weren't happy about it. They aren't American. And ask other LGBTQ folk from other places. That fact that you aren't offended doesn't mean it isn't offensive to a lot of other people.
And I didn't say it wasn't open in the sense that you don't stop LGBTQ people from posting. What I said was it isn't as inclusive at you think it is.

Anyway, I realize it's not worth discussing anymore. Thanks.

Kevin

by JTContinental I would argue that if he said it on live television loud enough to be heard by a bunch of people all over the world that he didn't really say it to himself.

I'm surprised at the doubling down here on a concept that is both reductive and absurd. Maybe that is the case for a certain generation, but the language you use definitely means a lot more to people today than ever before. Surely if the word in question was replaced with a racial slur, you wouldn't think, "Well, he's just calling himself that; no offense is meant," and that the rest of the non-American world would agree with that sentiment.

by ti-amie He's going to bear watching by hardcore fans of tennis. If he has any success the media will try and bury this about him. Casual fans will go to a tournament and cheer him. That is when Tennis Twitter will have to step up and keep the heat on him just like its doing now with Zverev and to a lesser extent Basilashvili.

by nelslus Look- I don't think any of us are exactly ready to start up an LGBTQ protest march at Rune's residence, nor will we be crying in our pillows tonight. (Albeit, BTW, I learned as a child not to ever use "those" terms, so bump giving Rune any youth age excuse.) What is indeed problematic is when an ongoing member of the TAT community (which would not be me) is vulnerable and open enough to express his concerns, including that this site is not as inclusive as some apparently think- only IMO to get discounted- that is just plain inappropriate.

Here's the deal: Especially if you are not a member of a group of people- especially if you are a white heterosexual male- and people in such groups express concerns- just listen. Truly, we Caucasian males just need to learn to STFU and put our privilege aside sometimes- I learned this ages ago for myself. Just listen. Learn. In this case, I truly feel that an apology is owed Kevin. (And, I'm not above being bitchy enough to say, please note who is liking your posts in this thread.)

What is deeply frustrating for me, and is one of the reasons I pretty much only come in here for the Pools (you'll have to irk me far worse for me to give up on those pretty little imaginary awards), is that, at least, I genuinely like almost everyone in here a lot. But, IMO, certain similar issues just keep coming up in this site. When this happens for a member too often- it becomes way too exhausting.

LOL, I can't even believe I'm responding, since I've been relegated as the crazy aunt to be kept in the TAT attic. But, for those of us who continue to tilt at those windmills- here is my support.

by nelslus

ti-amie wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 1:33 am He's going to bear watching by hardcore fans of tennis. If he has any success the media will try and bury this about him. Casual fans will go to a tournament and cheer him. That is when Tennis Twitter will have to step up and keep the heat on him just like its doing now with Zverev and to a lesser extent Basilashvili.

OMG, the Zverev general media burial makes me so infuriated. TRUST that, at least in the SF, I will be a rabid Rafa fan.

by ti-amie Almost the entire RG Twitter feed features him. Terrible.

by Deuce It's always interesting that those who claim to be the most 'non-judgemental' and 'tolerant' are often the most judgemental and intolerant.
It's an equation which seems to never fail.

"CONDEMNATION IS WRONG! STEREOTYPING IS OFFENSIVE!", they loudly say with their words... and then they add, in 'code' "except for the people who I want to condemn and stereotype - then condemnation and stereotyping is good!"
And once they decide that someone is 'bad', they NEVER let up. It matters not if the 'bad' person matures as he/she ages... it matters not if evidence is introduced to clarify things and show that things are not as they were originally perceived to be in the rush to judgement... no way - that person is condemned(!) as being 'bad' for life by these 'non-judgemental' and 'tolerant' people!

Suffice to say that the incredible degree of irony and hypocrisy is not lost on me.

.

by Suliso

ti-amie wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 1:33 am He's going to bear watching by hardcore fans of tennis. If he has any success the media will try and bury this about him. Casual fans will go to a tournament and cheer him. That is when Tennis Twitter will have to step up and keep the heat on him just like its doing now with Zverev and to a lesser extent Basilashvili.

Keep the heat on for what reason? Zverev is a very different situation - he actually abused someone. Makes no sense to me.

by JTContinental Can someone move this out of the day 9 OOP topic? It’s worth discussing but way off topic

by ponchi101 It could be moved, but where to? We don't have a topic for this conversation, unless we move it to RANDOM, and then it will be lost in there. If you have an idea to start another topic, you can do so and then these last posts can be moved.

About the subject. In no particular order.
TAT2.0 is NOT a safe space. That is not what this forum is in cyberspace for. Our rules are that you cannot be INSULTED directly, as if you are named-called by a slur or something as simple as a words like "Idiot, stupid, dumb". You cannot be called those. But the rules of the forum do not guarantee, and I feel they cannot guarantee, that you will not feel insulted or offended by IDEAS or CONCEPTS proposed by other people. And those, we cannot regulate to a point. If you propose hurtful action to a group, that can be easily spotted. But the concept of freedom of speech here in the forum must be applied, and I, or any moderator, don't have a precise guide rule on what to consider "insulting". Therefore, sometimes some posts will not be of somebody's liking. I really can't see how to stop that.
The inclusiveness of the forum. Part of that inclusiveness involves that we have members from around the world, from different cultures. Those cultural opinions are welcomed and can be expressed. As I have said before, the forum leans heavily towards the liberal, and this IS a liberal bubble; we seldom hear opinions that are not pro-LGBTQ rights, pro-women's rights, pro-minorities rights, or others. We certainly have no people here that are American Republican conservatives, because they have opted out of the forum. I wish we had a few, REASONABLE such voices (and some of you will laugh at the concept, while others will wonder if there are any of those) because I would want to hear other positions, but the forum is what it is. It is also the reason only about 20 of us interact on a regular basis, with that number dwindling.
About STFU. That is, again, an American concept, to be applied to White, Heterosexual Males. I believe it provides little value, as when nothing is discussed, nothing is learned. And, if that particular group is told NOT to speak, it sounds like censorship to me. I would not approve of such a policy.
Having said that. The sole person in this forum that has to STFU is ME, and that is because of a technical reason. I am the only person that cannot be banned from the forum, technically (site admin privileges). Other than that, everybody else here can post their culturally, racially, age-biased, different opinion as they please. And I gather that I and the rest of the moderating staff will have the non-enviable task of trying to moderate areas of speech that are basically pure shades of grey.

Last. If somebody, as little as one person, believes that I should be removed from Site Admin positions, please let me know via PM and, if you want the position, I will consider transferring it. And no, I am not playing the martyr, but this site should not be run by somebody if people believe such a person is not the right profile to do so.

by JTContinental I don't see any need for drastic action--this was just discussion and pretty respectful on all sides. I also don't think anyone is word or thought policing, just offering a viewpoint from people who have likely been called that term more than once in their life (I have a particularly fond memory of someone screaming it out the window of their car as they whipped a full milkshake at my head, for example), and the impact it has.

From a personal standpoint, I don't have any ill will toward anyone who isn't agreeing with me, but that doesn't mean I won't argue vociferously with them.

by JTContinental

Deuce wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 3:49 am It's always interesting that those who claim to be the most 'non-judgemental' and 'tolerant' are often the most judgemental and intolerant.
It's an equation which seems to never fail.

"CONDEMNATION IS WRONG! STEREOTYPING IS OFFENSIVE!", they loudly say with their words... and then they add, in 'code' "except for the people who I want to condemn and stereotype - then condemnation and stereotyping is good!"
And once they decide that someone is 'bad', they NEVER let up. It matters not if the 'bad' person matures as he/she ages... it matters not if evidence is introduced to clarify things and show that things are not as they were originally perceived to be in the rush to judgement... no way - that person is condemned(!) as being 'bad' for life by these 'non-judgemental' and 'tolerant' people!

Suffice to say that the incredible degree of irony and hypocrisy is not lost on me.

.

None of this is happening in this discussion. No one has said anything about branding Rune as anything, in fact I see the opposite. Obviously people grow and change; however this incident happened like a year ago, so criticism is valid.

by dmforever I'm curious. If he had yelled the n word at himself, would that also not be considered a slur?

Kevin

by ponchi101 As my point was about cultural differences, allow me to set forth some examples of how our cultures in L. America work it out.
We have, of course, a 1 to 1 translation of the much more offending "F word" in Spanish. Let's call it "M word". It is unambiguous, as it means nothing more than an insult. For my generation, that was a fighting word. Somebody called you that, your had to respond with your fists.
So, how does the new generation use it? They have completely defused it. M-word has become the term of endearment of choice by all young people, to the point that I have been called M-word by the sons of a my friend N (they are around their late 20's), and even my 36 yo niece has, by mistake, called me that. It is how they greet themselves. It is so much of a change that even the women call themselves that, just changing the O ending for an A ending. The word carries no offensive meaning anymore, and this has spread, as far as I know, to Mexico, Venezuela, Colombia, Argentina and Chile, at the very least.
We don't have an "N-word", as that word, in English, is simply a deformation for our Spanish word for Black. We simply use our standard word for black. Is it an insult, per se? No, to the point that I have three friends whose nicknames are "El N..." or "La N...". Which would be hard to understand by foreigners as none of them are of dark skin. L, an Argentinean friend, is called "La N..." because she has two sisters and they are blonde, while she is a brunette. All of them are as white as snow, making the nickname "funny" (I did have to ask her why she was called that).
We have racism, homophobia and xenophobia in L. America. I am not claiming we are this paradise of equality, everybody holding hands in harmony. But we do not pay that much attention to the words without looking at the context. You can use M-word as an insult, but it has to be made very, very clear that you are purposely insulting the person. Calling somebody "El N..." here has to be accompanied by something else for it to be considered an insult. We are not considering the word without considering the entire idea behind it.
An embarrassing moment for me when I went to study in the USA was when I was confused about the N-word. Having been before to America, I knew about it, but I truly did not understand the nuances of it. I was 17 (at the time) and I was unable to understand that the fact that I could watch Richard Pryor and hear him say it over and over did not grant me the same freedom. To this day, many people outside the USA wonder how that is possible, but that is your cultural frame. It takes a proper explanation (which I got from a dear friend, after truly embarrassing myself and having to leave a party) before you understand all the scope and details of it. Changing subjects to bring a little perspective, if you go to Georgia's STONE MOUNTAIN, you will get a whole different idea of what that place really means if you go with a white guide or an African-American. We here (at TAT2.0) understand what the real history of the place is (it is not the white one), but you need to understand America first, before understanding STONE MOUNTAIN.
So, as you are asking a real question: down HERE, if you call yourself the N-word, the people in the stands (or wherever you are) will not be insulted themselves, and would find it weird that (using Rune as part of the example) a white person would call himself that. Will we understand that it is an insult? Sure, but it is not aimed at us. I would not be insulted by a word not aimed at me, or a third person. If Rune were to aim it at such third person, we would need to check the context, but we would be upset about the bullying, not the word. It is the reason Medvedev's "Small cat", in which he DID NOT use a slur, was a low point to me, because he was bullying the chair umpire, who could not reply in kind. It was cowardly (to me).
I guess we are truly different in that aspect; you are American, I am Venezuelan. You will find almost all uses of such words to be a slur; I will find it offensive on far fewer.

by nelslus WELL, as the STFU person here (which, as I have friends from all over the world, so "STFU" is most definitely not an American concept)- first, please do not put any censorship concept with what I have written. Best believe that I have learned that, as a white male who was raised very much to be a heterosexual white male, I plenty of times have had to learn when I need to STFU up and listen. Example: I was ignorant (and still can be ignorant) about the trans community, and I still have plenty to learn about such issues as gender fluidity. So, I've read, listened, watched media, met folks, made friends, etc.

For me, STFU means, whenever anyone communicates, especially someone who is outside of my "group"- my first re-learned instinct means that I first need to listen. White males have been trained about how important we and our opinions are. We are privileged.

I do have Republican friends- and, LOL, to use the stereotypical comment that gays have been subjected to, one of my very best and long-term friends is Republican. Because we listen to each other, we're respectful, call each other out as needed- she's never homophobic or racist, etc. We have plenty of commonalities and love each other, and focus on all of that. This can be done.

"TAT2.0 is NOT a safe space" is very telling to me and speaks volumes. While focusing on why conservatives have left, perhaps also consider why women, people of color, LGBTQ, etc. folks have also left. The world is exhausting enough as is. Why choose to frequently participate in a site if you feel that you and your views get invalidated?

Hey, expand this STFU for the sake of conservatives, too, as, IMO, and fully functioning group should be a safe space for all. What does make me nuts is, this site has a golden opportunity to start fresh each time a Pool is used.

by Deuce

JTContinental wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:53 pm

Deuce wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 3:49 am It's always interesting that those who claim to be the most 'non-judgemental' and 'tolerant' are often the most judgemental and intolerant.
It's an equation which seems to never fail.

"CONDEMNATION IS WRONG! STEREOTYPING IS OFFENSIVE!", they loudly say with their words... and then they add, in 'code' "except for the people who I want to condemn and stereotype - then condemnation and stereotyping is good!"
And once they decide that someone is 'bad', they NEVER let up. It matters not if the 'bad' person matures as he/she ages... it matters not if evidence is introduced to clarify things and show that things are not as they were originally perceived to be in the rush to judgement... no way - that person is condemned(!) as being 'bad' for life by these 'non-judgemental' and 'tolerant' people!

Suffice to say that the incredible degree of irony and hypocrisy is not lost on me.

.

None of this is happening in this discussion.

^ I disagree.

by JTContinental Unsurprising

by Deuce

JTContinental wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 10:14 pm Unsurprising

Absolutely.
Both on my end and on the end of those who do what I describe on a routine basis.

by JTContinental You clearly know nothing about me or my personality based on your broad generalization.

I’m starting to feel less than respectful toward parts of this conversation, so I’m going to dip before I get mean. I do value much of what was said here though.

by JazzNU

nelslus wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 9:47 pm
"TAT2.0 is NOT a safe space" is very telling to me and speaks volumes. While focusing on why conservatives have left, perhaps also consider why women, people of color, LGBTQ, etc. folks have also left. The world is exhausting enough as is. Why choose to frequently participate in a site if you feel that you and your views get invalidated?

by Deuce

JTContinental wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 10:32 pm You clearly know nothing about me or my personality based on your broad generalization.

I’m starting to feel less than respectful toward parts of this conversation, so I’m going to dip before I get mean. I do value much of what was said here though.

That you feel I'm targeting you specifically speaks volumes.
You've targeted me personally in the past rather aggressively for what you think I am (without knowing me at all beyond this message board). And I'm ok with that, as long as I have the opportunity for rebuttal, which has been the case.
So I see your response above as the pot calling the kettle black - and that is even without me specifically targeting you as you have done to me in the past.
This is then an example of what I describe in my post above.

More recently, in the past several months, you and I have been quite pleasantly respectful of each other. We've commented on each other's posts amicably, and I had thought that we were past the problems. But you're bringing them back now within the discussion on this subject - reacting and commenting specifically to my posts.
As previously, as long as I have the opportunity for rebuttal, I will not deny your right to criticize me, even in a personal manner. I'd rather you didn't - but I can't control that.

I'm just saddened that some people here take general comments and/or disagreements with their position as if they are personal criticisms.