Business/Markets/Stocks/Economics Random, Random

[Suliso]

Mostly from my own experience attending two American universities (Oregon State and Upenn) early in this century. It's not that no one is interested, just not in the vast numbers needed in the workplace.

Same in Switzerland now.

[Suliso]

Imagine you, me and Ashkor are company owners in US in need of top quality engineers. There are 100 Americans like that in the market. Each of us wants 40. No matter what we do the deficit will need to be filled by outsiders. If I pay a lot more than you two I might not need to, but then you two will be in an even bigger predicament.

A very simplified thought experiment of course.

[ponchi101]

Of course. But the point being said by some people is that Americans, the people, are not capable of producing the number of STEM people needed due to lack of interest or capacities.
Your scenario is correct. America produces 100 STEM people, and we need 120. But let's say that America COULD produce 150 STEM people, but lack of educational opportunities keeps the number short. Then, immigration can be a solution, but more access to education can be one too.
The problem, the way I see it, is that the GOP is against both solutions. They do not want to pay for education, and they don't want to accept immigrants, especially from "those" countries. And Elon wants to allow for more immigrants (i.e. cheaper workforce) but not for more education (more expensive workforce).
Very typical management scenario. They identify the problem, but when the lower management proposes the solution, they do not accept it.

[Suliso]

Theoretically could produce 150 albeit with diminishing quality. Think about your own high school class in Venezuela. Do you think even half of them could have been scientists and/or high class engineers given all the opportunities and funding? I'd not claim that about my class and I went to one of the best high schools in my country.

[Suliso]

Also lets have another thought experiment. You have a company in California with a need for 500 scientists/engineers. You can pay a lot, but insist on having the very best regardless of nationality (only need to be fluent in English). Let's also assume everyone is eager to work for you. Q: how many of your employees are going to be American? My answer: considering size of the country, great education system and English requirement probably around 200. But not more than that!

Btw our R&D department at PhD level is ca 20% Swiss. In my particular office besides me (Latvian) - two Germans, two Austrians, two French and one each from Switzerland, UK, Italy and Lebanon. My boss is British, my peers Belgian, Romanian, French and Lebanese. My two lab co-workers (MsSc) are German.

Not saying we're some kind of wonder company everyone wants to be in, but we do hire widely and try to get the best from the candidates available to us.

[Suliso]

Having said all that I've also heard that there is a lot of abuse in US with these H1B visas. Many go to rather basic positions.

[ashkor87]

I have always believed that India's advantage isn't cost, it is simply sheer availability..if you want 10,000 engineers of a certain quality who also speak English fluently, they are available only in India, at any price

[ponchi101]

Again, you guys are having a management/entrepreneurial argument. The gist of what is being said is the GOP hypocrisy. No education, no immigration. Like the person said above, "we are a White, Chrystian nation and we have to keep it that way!"
And Elon is now saying "We need to go full NBA and just hire based on talent, and open the immigration system to get the best people. If the best engineer is a Muslim POC from somewhere in Africa, we must have a way to get him to the USA legally."
And the people that just voted for this new administration are reminding him their position on immigration.

Everything you two guys are saying is 100% correct. But that is tangential to the discussion.

[Suliso]

MAGA got played, but it was always going to happen. Sooner than I was expecting. Trump is not one of them and for sure not Musk.

[Suliso]

Trump himself is staying silent, though.

[ti-amie]

‪@GottaLaff‬ ‪@gottalaff.bsky.social‬
·
4m

#trump sides with Elon in H-1B visa debate, says he's always been in favor of the program - www.reuters.com/world/us/elo...

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/elon-m ... 024-12-28/

[ti-amie]

Dare Obasanjo
@carnage4life@mas.to
I’m surprised no one from MAGA is talking about how Linda McMahon who co-founded WWE is going to run the department of education and will close the gaps between American students and foreign workers in engineering.

J/K.

You reap what you sow.


The kids will all know how to do this though...

[mmmm8]

Theoretically could produce 150 albeit with diminishing quality. Think about your own high school class in Venezuela. Do you think even half of them could have been scientists and/or high class engineers given all the opportunities and funding? I'd not claim that about my class and I went to one of the best high schools in my country.

You have to look at elementary school for potential. In underfunded school districts, kids' potential falls out by middle school.Yes, there is a maximum potential and then a fall off, but the US is losing tons of its talent due to socio-economic reasons and undefunding schools and social welfare programs for kids. That's one of the reasons why social mobility is much higher in the EU.

[mmmm8]

Just two cents from someone who has people on my team on H1-Bs. Yes, many many of them are used to bring tech talent from lower-paid, higher-supply countries. But there are also many other roles where an H1-B might be the best hire that are not cost-dependent and are often actually higher paid. It's a valuable program to import knowledge and expertise, not only cheap labor.

The person I am currently submitting an H1-B for is Canadian and is as high or higher-paid than her US counterparts. But it again comes down to education - there are strong actuarial programs in Canada and she is an actuary.

[Suliso]

Certainly many H1-B visa holders are paid very well and end up with good careers. A former lab mate of mine stayed in US on H1-B is now a director at Merck. However that's anecdotal evidence, would need to gather some statistical data.