'22 WTA ATP GS USOpen 8/29 - 9/11

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Re: '22 WTA ATP GS USOpen 8/29 - 9/11

#16

Post by ponchi101 »

ashkor87 wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 1:59 am If the whole thing is a crap-shoot, what is there to 'talk about' ? Why even have this forum?!
Because it has not always been like this. A few years ago, at the USO the bet was always "Who will Serena beat in the final?" That was a bit of an unknown, but Serena Vs The Field was a valid question for many years. Prior to that, there was a bit of a gap but before the gap, Steffi Vs The Field was another valid question.
Right now, my position is: the WTA's parity has never been so even and so deep. Iga is ahead by a head, not by shoulders and torso. As we saw at last year's USO, this tournament is wide open. To me, indeed a crap shoot, but hey, I don't mind talking about a crap shoot.
And when we get there and the SP starts, we will need to start picking up possible winners. So, these few tournaments prior to the USO will give us data.
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Re: '22 WTA ATP GS USOpen 8/29 - 9/11

#17

Post by Cuckoo4Coco »

ponchi101 wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 1:41 pm
ashkor87 wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 1:59 am If the whole thing is a crap-shoot, what is there to 'talk about' ? Why even have this forum?!
Because it has not always been like this. A few years ago, at the USO the bet was always "Who will Serena beat in the final?" That was a bit of an unknown, but Serena Vs The Field was a valid question for many years. Prior to that, there was a bit of a gap but before the gap, Steffi Vs The Field was another valid question.
Right now, my position is: the WTA's parity has never been so even and so deep. Iga is ahead by a head, not by shoulders and torso. As we saw at last year's USO, this tournament is wide open. To me, indeed a crap shoot, but hey, I don't mind talking about a crap shoot.
And when we get there and the SP starts, we will need to start picking up possible winners. So, these few tournaments prior to the USO will give us data.
I actually enjoy crap shoot tournaments and the unknown much more than the same old/same old every tournament. That gets very stale. That is why I enjoy watching the women's tournaments more than the men's because in the men's it mostly ends up with the big 3 and Medvedev or Zverev or someone like that. It gets old after a while.
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Re: '22 WTA ATP GS USOpen 8/29 - 9/11

#18

Post by ashkor87 »

My question was obviously rhetorical .I don't believe there is parity today, nor do I believe there ever will be .
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Re: '22 WTA ATP GS USOpen 8/29 - 9/11

#19

Post by ashkor87 »

What is this parity anyway? The Australian open was won by Barty, clearly the best player in the world, the French was won by Swiatek..any surprise there ? Even Wimbledon, well, I have been calling Rybakina a potential champion for more than a year now. I simply fail to see what parity and crapshoot people are talking about!
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Re: '22 WTA ATP GS USOpen 8/29 - 9/11

#20

Post by ponchi101 »

I see parity here:
The last year with a multiple slam winner was 2016 (Kerber). I don't think Swiatek will win the USO, Barty it is obvious, Ryvbakina is a long shot. So I say that streak continues this year.
Since the USO 2015 we have had 15 new slam winners in the WTA. I won't even bother counting the ATP, as it pales in comparison.
The most successful women in the tour, still active, not named Williams, hold 3 slams each (Kerber and Barty). That was a regular year for the likes of Serena and Graf. For these two excellent players, it is their career.
Surprise winners, out of nowhere: Garbie, Sloane, Emma, Rybakina, Kenin, Krejcikova, Ostapenko, plus a lot of surprise finalists. I don't recall you calling out Rybakina as a future slam champion, but kudos to you. To me, she was a good player that indeed finally delivered.
Mind you. I don't mind this parity; I like it. It makes the WTA exciting, with new faces coming up all the time. We all agree that Jabeur is a great addition, and let's hope she inspires many more girls in Northern Africa. But we have also agreed that this parity has made marketing the WTA, at the vert least, a tricky proposal.
And yes, the Aussie was won by Barty. That she was clearly the best player in the world could be another fun talk (lost to an "unknown" player at the USO, and due to C19, did not go to the WTA Championships).
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Re: '22 WTA ATP GS USOpen 8/29 - 9/11

#21

Post by Cuckoo4Coco »

ponchi101 wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 5:43 pm I see parity here:
The last year with a multiple slam winner was 2016 (Kerber). I don't think Swiatek will win the USO, Barty it is obvious, Ryvbakina is a long shot. So I say that streak continues this year.
Since the USO 2015 we have had 15 new slam winners in the WTA. I won't even bother counting the ATP, as it pales in comparison.
The most successful women in the tour, still active, not named Williams, hold 3 slams each (Kerber and Barty). That was a regular year for the likes of Serena and Graf. For these two excellent players, it is their career.
Surprise winners, out of nowhere: Garbie, Sloane, Emma, Rybakina, Kenin, Krejcikova, Ostapenko, plus a lot of surprise finalists. I don't recall you calling out Rybakina as a future slam champion, but kudos to you. To me, she was a good player that indeed finally delivered.
Mind you. I don't mind this parity; I like it. It makes the WTA exciting, with new faces coming up all the time. We all agree that Jabeur is a great addition, and let's hope she inspires many more girls in Northern Africa. But we have also agreed that this parity has made marketing the WTA, at the vert least, a tricky proposal.
And yes, the Aussie was won by Barty. That she was clearly the best player in the world could be another fun talk (lost to an "unknown" player at the USO, and due to C19, did not go to the WTA Championships).
The best shot of course for a repeat Slam champion is Iga Swiatek and because Coco Gauff is going to win the USO this year that is not going to happen. ;) Elena Rybakina, I think will go far in the USO but I don't see her winning the whole thing either.

I love the fact that unknown players make a showing in these slams because then I can really get to know a player that ordinarily I wouldn't even know who they are. Someone like Emma last year, I don't know how long it would have taken me to even know who she was if she wouldn't have gotten through the qualifiers or lost in the 1st round.
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Re: '22 WTA ATP GS USOpen 8/29 - 9/11

#22

Post by Deuce »

Cuckoo4Coco wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 12:48 pm
Deuce wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 4:10 am
ashkor87 wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 1:45 am The fact that Andreescu could do it, is one reason I hold her in high esteem...she maintained her level through the entire year..in fact, I think she was unbeaten on hard courts that year..astonishing!
She was new and unknown to the other players then (in 2019).
Since then, the other players have figured out how to play her, and she has not been able to counter that.
The predictable outcome is that she has not done anywhere near as well since the other players figured out how to play her.
Do you think that will be the case for Emma & Leylah this year? I suppose they both will have the bullseye on their backs with the performances they put up last year and Emma has been struggling and Leylah coming off the foot injury. Could it be early exits for both of them then, you think?
I think we've already seen that with Emma, as she has done nothing since the U.S. Open. Other players quickly figured her out - and I don't think there was anything exceptional in her play to begin with. So, with other players quickly figuring her out, combined with her numerous 'injuries', retirements, withdrawals - and what I see as a lack of motivation... it is my belief that once her U.S. Open points disappear, we'll have seen the last of her in the top 20. She might not even be a regular presence in the top 40.

Leylah is a different animal - because of her 'mental strength'. Ever since the very first time I saw her play live (she was 15 years old), I've known that her determination, intensity, focus, etc. would be her greatest asset and greatest weapon. And that's much more difficult for other players to figure out or to overcome.
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Re: '22 WTA ATP GS USOpen 8/29 - 9/11

#23

Post by Cuckoo4Coco »

Deuce wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 7:38 pm
Cuckoo4Coco wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 12:48 pm
Deuce wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 4:10 am
She was new and unknown to the other players then (in 2019).
Since then, the other players have figured out how to play her, and she has not been able to counter that.
The predictable outcome is that she has not done anywhere near as well since the other players figured out how to play her.
Do you think that will be the case for Emma & Leylah this year? I suppose they both will have the bullseye on their backs with the performances they put up last year and Emma has been struggling and Leylah coming off the foot injury. Could it be early exits for both of them then, you think?
I think we've already seen that with Emma, as she has done nothing since the U.S. Open. Other players quickly figured her out - and I don't think there was anything exceptional in her play to begin with. So, with other players quickly figuring her out, combined with her numerous 'injuries', retirements, withdrawals - and what I see as a lack of motivation... it is my belief that once her U.S. Open points disappear, we'll have seen the last of her in the top 20. She might not even be a regular presence in the top 40.

Leylah is a different animal - because of her 'mental strength'. Ever since the very first time I saw her play live (she was 15 years old), I've known that her determination, intensity, focus, etc. would be her greatest asset and greatest weapon. And that's much more difficult for other players to figure out or to overcome.
My coach says those assets that you just mentioned with Leylah are the most important. He said with me that my 'mental strength' is probably the strongest part of my tennis game. He told me for a kid my age and he has been my coach for several years, he has never seen a kid more focused and determined than I am on the court. He also told me that other than the normal driving him crazy, I am really easy to coach.
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Re: '22 WTA ATP GS USOpen 8/29 - 9/11

#24

Post by atlpam »

ponchi101 wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 5:43 pm I see parity here:
The last year with a multiple slam winner was 2016 (Kerber). I don't think Swiatek will win the USO, Barty it is obvious, Ryvbakina is a long shot. So I say that streak continues this year. ;) ;)
Since the USO 2015 we have had 15 new slam winners in the WTA. I won't even bother counting the ATP, as it pales in comparison.
The most successful women in the tour, still active, not named Williams, hold 3 slams each (Kerber and Barty). That was a regular year for the likes of Serena and Graf. For these two excellent players, it is their career.
Surprise winners, out of nowhere: Garbie, Sloane, Emma, Rybakina, Kenin, Krejcikova, Ostapenko, plus a lot of surprise finalists. I don't recall you calling out Rybakina as a future slam champion, but kudos to you. To me, she was a good player that indeed finally delivered.
Mind you. I don't mind this parity; I like it. It makes the WTA exciting, with new faces coming up all the time. We all agree that Jabeur is a great addition, and let's hope she inspires many more girls in Northern Africa. But we have also agreed that this parity has made marketing the WTA, at the vert least, a tricky proposal.
And yes, the Aussie was won by Barty. That she was clearly the best player in the world could be another fun talk (lost to an "unknown" player at the USO, and due to C19, did not go to the WTA Championships).
Pretty sure Osaka is still considered an “Active” player. 😉
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Re: '22 WTA ATP GS USOpen 8/29 - 9/11

#25

Post by ponchi101 »

Cuckoo4Coco wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 7:54 pm ...
My coach says those assets that you just mentioned with Leylah are the most important. He said with me that my 'mental strength' is probably the strongest part of my tennis game. He told me for a kid my age and he has been my coach for several years, he has never seen a kid more focused and determined than I am on the court. He also told me that other than the normal driving him crazy, I am really easy to coach.
Oh, so we are not the only ones... ;)
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Re: '22 WTA ATP GS USOpen 8/29 - 9/11

#26

Post by Deuce »

Cuckoo4Coco wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 7:54 pm
Deuce wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 7:38 pm
Cuckoo4Coco wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 12:48 pm

Do you think that will be the case for Emma & Leylah this year? I suppose they both will have the bullseye on their backs with the performances they put up last year and Emma has been struggling and Leylah coming off the foot injury. Could it be early exits for both of them then, you think?
I think we've already seen that with Emma, as she has done nothing since the U.S. Open. Other players quickly figured her out - and I don't think there was anything exceptional in her play to begin with. So, with other players quickly figuring her out, combined with her numerous 'injuries', retirements, withdrawals - and what I see as a lack of motivation... it is my belief that once her U.S. Open points disappear, we'll have seen the last of her in the top 20. She might not even be a regular presence in the top 40.

Leylah is a different animal - because of her 'mental strength'. Ever since the very first time I saw her play live (she was 15 years old), I've known that her determination, intensity, focus, etc. would be her greatest asset and greatest weapon. And that's much more difficult for other players to figure out or to overcome.
My coach says those assets that you just mentioned with Leylah are the most important.
^ Your coach is correct.
Tennis is AT LEAST 95% mental.
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Re: '22 WTA ATP GS USOpen 8/29 - 9/11

#27

Post by Cuckoo4Coco »

Deuce wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 8:15 pm
Cuckoo4Coco wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 7:54 pm
Deuce wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 7:38 pm
I think we've already seen that with Emma, as she has done nothing since the U.S. Open. Other players quickly figured her out - and I don't think there was anything exceptional in her play to begin with. So, with other players quickly figuring her out, combined with her numerous 'injuries', retirements, withdrawals - and what I see as a lack of motivation... it is my belief that once her U.S. Open points disappear, we'll have seen the last of her in the top 20. She might not even be a regular presence in the top 40.

Leylah is a different animal - because of her 'mental strength'. Ever since the very first time I saw her play live (she was 15 years old), I've known that her determination, intensity, focus, etc. would be her greatest asset and greatest weapon. And that's much more difficult for other players to figure out or to overcome.
My coach says those assets that you just mentioned with Leylah are the most important.
^ Your coach is correct.
Tennis is AT LEAST 95% mental.
It is so true. I know for fact that I have beaten players that physically were better than me that day on the court, but mentally I held it together and pulled the match out.
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Re: '22 WTA ATP GS USOpen 8/29 - 9/11

#28

Post by ponchi101 »

No it isn't. If it were so dependent on the mental side, how come players decline with age? They grow stupider? Mentally weaker? That would be odd.
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Re: '22 WTA ATP GS USOpen 8/29 - 9/11

#29

Post by Cuckoo4Coco »

ponchi101 wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 9:46 pm No it isn't. If it were so dependent on the mental side, how come players decline with age? They grow stupider? Mentally weaker? That would be odd.
Obviously as we age we physically tire. The really strong players through that age such as Serena, Rafa, Novak, Roger are also very strong mentally so yes it is very important. In Tennis or in any sport I don't think you can be one dimensional in anything, but having a strong mental strength definitely helps everything else within your overall game.
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Re: '22 WTA ATP GS USOpen 8/29 - 9/11

#30

Post by Deuce »

That argument about players deteriorating as they age makes little sense to me in the context of mental strength. Quite obviously, people have different levels of physical ability. A 20 year old is stronger physically than a 2 year old...
Saying that the game is 95% mental is not saying that there is no physical component, or that the physical element is irrelevant, obviously. It's saying that when physical abilities are very closely matched - as they are at the pro level - the difference and distinction between the players is 95% mental.

The players themselves have said (over various generations) that the main difference between the majority of players in the top 100 is the psychological element - how each player deals with pressure, stress, bad calls, the sun, the wind, the crowd, the media, etc... that is all strictly psychological.
There are a few exceptions here and there - players who possess a rare level of magical physical talent for the game which rises above that of others (Federer, Kyrgios, Arazi, etc.) but these are very few. For all of Kyrgios' natural tennis ability (many would say that he's the most physically talented player on the tour right now, with which I agree) - why is he not #1 in the world? Why has he never come close to being #1 in the world? The very obvious answer is because he is so incredibly weak psychologically.

How many times have we seen Nadal and Djokovic win a match in which they were significantly behind and being outplayed? Many times. That's strictly due to their superior mental strength, and not because their physical abilities suddenly vanished and reappeared.
The physical ability to hit shots in certain situations and circumstances is very directly related to one's mental strength. If you're nervous, your physical ability will be directly affected in a negative way most of the time. The psychological and physical are intrinsically linked... it's very easy to walk - or even dance - on a 2x4 piece of wood when it's on the ground. But put that very same 2x4 30 feet in the air - with no net underneath, and it suddenly becomes much, much more difficult to walk on it. The physical ability has not changed, obviously - but the psychological element has very much changed (because the consequences have changed).
Lots of tennis commentators - including former players - often say that the game is mostly mental at the pro level.

It has also been my experience over the 40 years I've played and watched tennis that tennis is at least 95% psychological. I've seen lots of evidence of this, and I've experienced it personally many times. I have played in matches where everyone watching agreed that I was the more physically talented player - but which I've lost because I was beaten psychologically (if you want to beat me, give me lots of slow pace balls hit high over the net - I haven't the patience to stand there all day rallying back & forth - I have little patience on the court - I go for winners because I don't like winning through attrition or through my opponent's errors).

So, yes, I am absolutely convinced that tennis is definitely at least 95% mental, or psychological.
Last edited by Deuce on Sun Jul 31, 2022 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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