Covid-19 Updates & Info

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Deuce Canada
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Re: Covid-19 Updates & Info

#2281

Post by Deuce »

I just read this article about why the U.S. has far more COVID cases, ICU admissions, and deaths than Canada does (per capita).
It's from a couple of months ago - but it's definitely still an interesting read.

Before you begin planning your move to Canada, though, consider that we may be catching up to the U.S., as politics has sadly won out here, as well, with almost all of the protective measures having been lifted in provinces here over the past month or so. To no intelligent person's surprise, case counts, hospitalisations, ICU admissions, and Deaths began to rise as a direct result of the lifting of protective measures.
People in general are not intelligent enough to protect themselves, and are not caring enough to protect others - not surprisingly, they need to be mandated to do these things - otherwise, it simply doesn't happen.

We had something that was obviously working well... but the politicians decided to be self-serving and eliminate the things which were working well.

Why are Canada's COVID Rates So Much Lower Than Those of the U.S.?

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Last edited by Deuce on Sun Apr 17, 2022 4:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Covid-19 Updates & Info

#2282

Post by dryrunguy »

I ate in a restaurant for the first time is over 2 years. It was lunch on Thursday at about 2 in the afternoon. I figured the restaurant would be close to empty--and it was.

Progress. :)

But it will still be a while before I am brave enough to try dinner out on a Friday or Saturday night.
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Re: Covid-19 Updates & Info

#2283

Post by ponchi101 »

The ambivalence is:
We have tried everything. The long lockdowns, wearing masks that are reported to work or not, depending on who you read, vaccines that will not stop you from getting the disease but will prevent severe symptoms and death. In the meantime, the virus has mutated into several strands, each more contagious but less deadly, and many, many people have suffered disastrous financial consequences due to this pandemic.
So. The question remains the same. Do we stop doing what we have been doing, because it has not been working, or do we keep going on with it, hoping that this virus will eventually be defeated?
I say this thing is here to stay. People with co-morbidities will suffer the worst lot, but the rest of the world has to accept this as a new, more virulent flu that will mow down a fixed number of people a year.
I still will wear my mask and get my vaccines.
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Re: Covid-19 Updates & Info

#2284

Post by dryrunguy »

I don't know, ponchi. I'd argue that I have consistently made good decisions for myself and for this household. I've done all of the things I am supposed to do. And so far, knock on wood, I haven't caught it. I call that a victory.

Yes, I have denied myself a lot. I have avoided many things I REALLY want to do or places I REALLY want to go. But is that such an enormous sacrifice? I don't think so. I have become a better cook, and I have learned that I am not necessarily entitled to recreation or amusement. We live in a society where we are expected to go out, do things, attend events, spend money... Commercial, commercial, commercial.

I do miss the human interaction, though. Face to face human interaction. Hugs. A kiss on the cheek. But there are also other ways to show our friends and loved ones that we care about them.

The bottom line remains the same as it has been throughout this entire pandemic. I can make all the right decisions until I'm blue in the face.

But I have ZERO control over the decisions others make. Hence my trepidation about sitting at a table in a packed restaurant or being in packed public spaces when I have ZERO control over who is at the next table, who is standing next to me, or who is coughing in the seat behind me--and the decisions they have made.
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Re: Covid-19 Updates & Info

#2285

Post by ponchi101 »

We are not in that much disagreement. I have also avoided getting the virus (despite a full week in a household with three people that had tested positive) by not going out much, and spending a lot of time at home with my girl. But part of that has also been due to the verifiably sickening reality that I simply can't find a job, either here of abroad, and therefore there really is no reason for me to go out.
I really don't know how many people have been in this position, in which not going out and forsaking human interaction has been "easy" since we have been not needed.
I also don't know how to handle this anymore. I just came back from the USA so my GF and I are in some sort of quarantine. We did spend, after all, 14 hours in planes and airports, of which two were American airports where NO checking of vaccination was done (we had to show vaccination records to come back here, but that was only the last leg). And indeed, we were in places with people with no masks whatsoever, and as I said above, ran into one friend that openly said he was not vaccinated because he was not going to "let them put their (expletive) into me".
My point is the same as I wrote in May 2020. This thing has defeated us. We can't beat it with 100 million Americans refusing to get vaccinated and the virus mutating rapidly. So most of us will remain taking precautions but there are enough that won't. The virus will pool there and continue.
We have said it above. I don't know what else to do. To me, this is not 2022. This is 2020, season 3.
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Re: Covid-19 Updates & Info

#2286

Post by Suliso »

Interesting observation. In Switzerland maybe 20% of people still wear masks, some even outdoors. Here in the Netherlands absolutely no one. Literally in three days I'm yet to see a single person doing that.

We personally have decided to ignore the virus since few months ago. We've been three times vaccinated and enough is enough. I go to work anyway.

By the way Amsterdam yesterday was incredibly crowded. More so than I remember NYC from before.
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Re: Covid-19 Updates & Info

#2287

Post by ponchi101 »

I don't like to link articles, but I felt this one was balanced:
Is COVID More Dangerous Than Driving? How Scientists Are Parsing COVID Risks.

---0---
@Suliso. That is where my dilemma comes from. Here in Bogota, masks are still mandated, and I don't mind. But the entire city is open, and there are no more restrictions. I am not sure if restaurants and public spaces are requiring proof of vaccination (I have mine in my back pack, anyway) but if not, then it is everybody on their own. So by now, if we are going to make individual choices, sure, get your vaccine and carry on.
Until you think about the population that cannot be vaccinated.
It is still confusing to me, at least a little bit.
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Re: Covid-19 Updates & Info

#2288

Post by Suliso »

I think some of what we're doing still in certain countries (for example Germany) is more like a safety theatre akin to removing your shoes at airport security check. Whom exactly is showing covid certificate at a restaurant helping? Same with masks in the same restaurant - use it to go in for 2 min and then take off for an hour long dinner... I could see some point in public transport still for a while.
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Re: Covid-19 Updates & Info

#2289

Post by Deuce »

Suliso wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 4:18 pm I think some of what we're doing still in certain countries (for example Germany) is more like a safety theatre akin to removing your shoes at airport security check. Whom exactly is showing covid certificate at a restaurant helping? Same with masks in the same restaurant - use it to go in for 2 min and then take off for an hour long dinner... I could see some point in public transport still for a while.
I will preface my response by stating that I am not at all a rules person. I believe much more in personal freedom than in rules, and have lived my life thus. That said, I also believe that rules are sometimes necessary to protect people from themselves and from others.

What you refer to as ‘safety theatre’ is more than that. While you are correct in saying that wearing a mask to enter a restaurant, and then removing it for your entire stay at the restaurant is rather silly, I still believe that having such ‘rules’ does good overall - because when we remove these mandates, it gives the very loud and obvious message to the populace that this situation (COVID-19) is ‘under control’, and/or that it’s ‘not that serious’.
And this is precisely what has absolutely been happening for the past month or so - most protective measures have been lifted, and the general public has very much interpreted this as a message that everything is OK now, and that everyone has ‘carte blanche’ to do whatever they wish because things are back to normal. The (predictable) result is that positive COVID cases are rising, hospitalisations are rising, ICU admissions are rising, and deaths are rising.
Meanwhile, the medical experts are going nuts saying “NO! NO! This is crazy! COVID-19 is still very much with us, and is still very dangerous to us all, and we need to protect ourselves and each other.” I see everywhere that medical and infectious disease experts are contradicting governments these days. The science, obviously, is on the side of medical experts, while the only thing on the side of the politicians is their old and trusted ally - utter self-serving selfishness.

You ask who showing a vaccine certificate (‘vaccine passport’) at a restaurant is helping.
If everyone in a restaurant or other indoor setting is vaccinated, it then constitutes a safer environment than does a setting of unvaccinated people. Again, this is the science speaking. This is because vaccinated people are A) less likely to contract COVID-19, and B) if they do contract COVID-19, vaccinated people are less symptomatic, and therefore shed less viral load, and therefore are less likely to transmit the virus to others.

Also, ensuring that people must show a ‘vaccine passport’ encourages people to get vaccinated. This then decreases the likelihood of virus transmission, and is therefore an overall positive element for everyone. For the small ‘price’ of getting vaccinated, I, as well as the huge majority of medical professionals and infectious disease specialists, feel this is a good thing.

Not surprisingly, individual people, as well as governments, have viewed the COVID situation from an increasingly selfish perspective as time has gone on. This does not bode well for any society in an overall sense. Allowing people to decide for themselves whether or not to wear masks, for example, results in selfish behaviour - i.e. ‘I don’t want to wear a mask, so I won’t’. Lost in this is the scientific fact that wearing a mask protects others from you at least as much as it protects you from others. Therefore, the decision to not wear a mask is a very selfish one which completely discounts the rights of others to not be harmed by you.
If it were merely that those who choose to not wear a mask were exposing only themselves to the potential for harm, then I’d say ‘Fine - it’s your choice’. But we’re all in this together - and that is being lost in this new selfish approach.
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Re: Covid-19 Updates & Info

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Post by ti-amie »

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Re: Covid-19 Updates & Info

#2291

Post by mmmm8 »

Suliso wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 4:18 pm I think some of what we're doing still in certain countries (for example Germany) is more like a safety theatre akin to removing your shoes at airport security check. Whom exactly is showing covid certificate at a restaurant helping? Same with masks in the same restaurant - use it to go in for 2 min and then take off for an hour long dinner... I could see some point in public transport still for a while.
I think requiring vaccination for restaurants is considerably different from masks in restaurants. Knowing everyone else in an indoor place is vaccinated confirms a reduced risk of me getting infected. The requirement is lifted here in NY and domestic tourists are back and I don't feel great about it. For a few weeks after Omicron and before the mandate was lifted, I did feel safe (at this point, I'm dining indoors even with the increased risk - it's still too cold for outdoors and my colleagues no longer care, so no one is making me but peer pressure).
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Re: Covid-19 Updates & Info

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Post by ti-amie »

“Do not grow old, no matter how long you live. Never cease to stand like curious children before the Great Mystery into which we were born.” Albert Einstein
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Re: Covid-19 Updates & Info

#2293

Post by Deuce »

ti-amie wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 10:19 pm
It must be noted that the judge who ruled to end the mask mandate on airplanes is a Trump appointed judge in Florida. So this kind of idiocy is pretty much obligatory.
Here in Canada, our medical science experts are saying that this decision is insane.

Any system which allows a single solitary judge like this to make such a hugely important decision, AND HAVE IT STAND, is an extremely defective system.

On Judge Kathryn Kimball Mizelle:
"While Mizelle has not been in her position for long, she's found herself at the center of controversy before: During her Senate confirmation process, the American Bar Association (ABA) said she was not qualified for the position because she had not been practicing law for long enough."

"The Leadership Conference of Civil and Human Rights specifically opposed Mizelle's confirmation because of her lack of legal experience, as well as her involvement in civil rights cases in the Trump Justice Department and what it called her "extreme right-wing ideology.""

What to Know About Judge Kathryn Mizelle, Who Struck Down the Travel Mask Mandate...

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Last edited by Deuce on Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Covid-19 Updates & Info

#2294

Post by Suliso »

mmmm8 wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 9:42 pm I think requiring vaccination for restaurants is considerably different from masks in restaurants. Knowing everyone else in an indoor place is vaccinated confirms a reduced risk of me getting infected.
But does it really? It seems to me that this new variant infects equally well vaccinated and unvaccinated the only difference being that unvaccinated risk a worse outcome. Encouraging vaccination would be a more sound argument except that those who haven't still are hard antivaxers. Nothing could convince them...
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Re: Covid-19 Updates & Info

#2295

Post by Deuce »

Suliso wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 5:46 am
mmmm8 wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 9:42 pm I think requiring vaccination for restaurants is considerably different from masks in restaurants. Knowing everyone else in an indoor place is vaccinated confirms a reduced risk of me getting infected.
But does it really? It seems to me that this new variant infects equally well vaccinated and unvaccinated the only difference being that unvaccinated risk a worse outcome. Encouraging vaccination would be a more sound argument except that those who haven't still are hard antivaxers. Nothing could convince them...
I wonder where you derive your information that Omicron (or its derivatives) "infects equally well vaccinated and unvaccinated".

No. While ‘breakthrough’ infections among the vaccinated are more likely with Omicron than they were with Delta, these ‘breakthrough’ Omicron infections among the vaccinated are still much more rare per capita than are Omicron infections among the unvaccinated.
“The agency defines a breakthrough COVID-19 infection as “a small percentage of fully vaccinated persons” who “will still get COVID-19 if they are exposed to the virus that causes it.”

https://www.ama-assn.org/delivering-car ... infections

Does requiring proof of vaccination in restaurants, etc. provide a 100% guarantee that no-one in the restaurant, or cinema, etc. will be infected with COVID-19?
No.
Does NOT requiring proof of vaccination in those locations increase the chances that some people in those locations will be infected with COVID-19 when compared with requiring proof of vaccination?
Yes.

Also... unvaccinated people in general are more likely than vaccinated people are to be reckless and go to restaurants and other indoor locations even if they are symptomatic to some degree. Because a significant degree of unvaccinated people do not believe that COVID-19 is a serious matter.

As well... requiring people to show proof of vaccination prior to accessing events, establishments, etc. has proven to boost the number of people opting to get vaccinated. While it is true that some unvaccinated people will never get vaccinated, if requiring proof of vaccination to access certain locations convinces even as little as 5% of the unvaccinated to get vaccinated, it is worth it (and it’s likely considerably more than 5%).
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