The Goat Debate

Our main board to talk about our sport

Who is the GOAT for you

Federer
12
44%
Nadal
8
30%
Djokovic
5
19%
Laver
0
No votes
Other
2
7%
 
Total votes: 27

User avatar
ponchi101 Venezuela
Site Admin
Posts: 9637
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2020 4:40 pm
Location: New Macondo
Has thanked: 2484 times
Been thanked: 3435 times
Contact:

Re: The Goat Debate

#151

Post by ponchi101 »

Not a slam dunk for Serena at all. You have Martina, sure, but you also have Steffi, whose numbers, except for total slams, are better than Serena's. And, as disliked as she is, Court's numbers are also impressive.
The difference, in the conversation, is that these three guys are all playing at the same time, while the women are spread through history. At least, one difference in the conversation.
Ego figere omnia et scio supellectilem
User avatar
meganfernandez United States of America
Posts: 3383
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2020 2:04 pm
Has thanked: 1811 times
Been thanked: 1013 times

Re: The Goat Debate

#152

Post by meganfernandez »

ponchi101 wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 1:16 pm Not a slam dunk for Serena at all. You have Martina, sure, but you also have Steffi, whose numbers, except for total slams, are better than Serena's. And, as disliked as she is, Court's numbers are also impressive.
The difference, in the conversation, is that these three guys are all playing at the same time, while the women are spread through history. At least, one difference in the conversation.
Court's out of it for me. 11 of her Slams were at the Aussie when it was a 32-person draw and mostly Aussies. To me, Serena is by far the GOAT. Longevity, Olympics, doubles, comebacks, played against her sister, transcended the sport, and more Slams. Steffi's big advantage is the Golden Slam.
User avatar
ponchi101 Venezuela
Site Admin
Posts: 9637
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2020 4:40 pm
Location: New Macondo
Has thanked: 2484 times
Been thanked: 3435 times
Contact:

Re: The Goat Debate

#153

Post by ponchi101 »

Uhm, I would not go so fast. I wrote about it in TAT1.0. Let me update the figures and will post those blogs.
Quick facts about Steffi/Serena. Steffi: more total tournaments, more weeks at number 1, more years as #1, better percentage at the slams, fewer finals played against players that never won slams. Just a few numbers.
Should we open a female GOAT topic? With Serena close to reaching the end of her career (I am assuming that), it might be time.
Ego figere omnia et scio supellectilem
Cuckoo4Coco United States of America
Posts: 1369
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:21 am
Location: USA
Has thanked: 347 times
Been thanked: 331 times

Re: The Goat Debate

#154

Post by Cuckoo4Coco »

meganfernandez wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 1:19 pm
ponchi101 wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 1:16 pm Not a slam dunk for Serena at all. You have Martina, sure, but you also have Steffi, whose numbers, except for total slams, are better than Serena's. And, as disliked as she is, Court's numbers are also impressive.
The difference, in the conversation, is that these three guys are all playing at the same time, while the women are spread through history. At least, one difference in the conversation.
Court's out of it for me. 11 of her Slams were at the Aussie when it was a 32-person draw and mostly Aussies. To me, Serena is by far the GOAT. Longevity, Olympics, doubles, comebacks, played against her sister, transcended the sport, and more Slams. Steffi's big advantage is the Golden Slam.
I didn't mention Steffi because I really don't know much about her because she retired before I was born. The one thing I do know about her is when she came along she took Martina to another level and started kicking her butt. Then there came Monica Seles.

Some dislike Serena as well. I guess for the player I know the best the Ladies GOAT would be Serena.
User avatar
ponchi101 Venezuela
Site Admin
Posts: 9637
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2020 4:40 pm
Location: New Macondo
Has thanked: 2484 times
Been thanked: 3435 times
Contact:

Re: The Goat Debate

#155

Post by ponchi101 »

We can get so much tennis on TV nowadays, people forget that it was not so in the 70's, and almost impossible to find anything in the 60's. So, it is a logical process to go by what you see.
Believe some of us old geezers. When Martina was playing, she was an impressive sight. She just did not "evolve" the sport; she mutated it. The tennis game, the conditioning, the mental change she had (she was a bit unsure at first, then became an absolute monolith of mental strength). I don't think she has ever been credited properly for what she did for the sport. One example: she forced everybody to train better and better. Otherwise, you had no chance against her.
Ego figere omnia et scio supellectilem
Cuckoo4Coco United States of America
Posts: 1369
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:21 am
Location: USA
Has thanked: 347 times
Been thanked: 331 times

Re: The Goat Debate

#156

Post by Cuckoo4Coco »

ponchi101 wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 2:14 pm We can get so much tennis on TV nowadays, people forget that it was not so in the 70's, and almost impossible to find anything in the 60's. So, it is a logical process to go by what you see.
Believe some of us old geezers. When Martina was playing, she was an impressive sight. She just did not "evolve" the sport; she mutated it. The tennis game, the conditioning, the mental change she had (she was a bit unsure at first, then became an absolute monolith of mental strength). I don't think she has ever been credited properly for what she did for the sport. One example: she forced everybody to train better and better. Otherwise, you had no chance against her.
I have watched a documentary about her and Chris Evert and it was awesome. It talked about when she came onto the tennis scene and at first she had a difficult time against Chris and then began to dominate her. It went on to talk about how they became really good friends and even now Martina being one of the first people Chris called when she was diagnosed with Cancer. It was a great documentary not only showing how Martina changed the game of tennis back then but how both of them formed a friendship through all of the competition they had.

I love listening to the "old geezers" as you call them. They have a lot of awesome stories to tell about tennis. I love to listen to my grandpa a lot with the stories he tells me. God if he only knew I just called him an old geezer. :lol: I think I learn a lot from that too.
User avatar
ponchi101 Venezuela
Site Admin
Posts: 9637
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2020 4:40 pm
Location: New Macondo
Has thanked: 2484 times
Been thanked: 3435 times
Contact:

Re: The Goat Debate

#157

Post by ponchi101 »

This was my piece about Serena and Steffi. Just a few numbers.
http://blogs.talkabouttennis2.com/index ... vs-serena/
Ego figere omnia et scio supellectilem
Cuckoo4Coco United States of America
Posts: 1369
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:21 am
Location: USA
Has thanked: 347 times
Been thanked: 331 times

Re: The Goat Debate

#158

Post by Cuckoo4Coco »

ponchi101 wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 2:52 pm This was my piece about Serena and Steffi. Just a few numbers.
http://blogs.talkabouttennis2.com/index ... vs-serena/
They both had very similar numbers. Graf did have a rival in her career in Seles like you said and she pushed her. Has Serena really had that other than probably her own sister Venus? I mean there have been players that have come and they go along the way but nothing really of a mainstay player that I can think of that has stayed around the top. Osaka could be one and Ash Barty but really the women's game it seems like it changes a lot.
User avatar
ponchi101 Venezuela
Site Admin
Posts: 9637
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2020 4:40 pm
Location: New Macondo
Has thanked: 2484 times
Been thanked: 3435 times
Contact:

Re: The Goat Debate

#159

Post by ponchi101 »

The only player that, for a long time, went out there against Serena without having lost the match already in the locker room due to fear was Henin. She (maaaaaybe) could have been a worthy rival, but also got derailed by an injury.
Ego figere omnia et scio supellectilem
Cuckoo4Coco United States of America
Posts: 1369
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:21 am
Location: USA
Has thanked: 347 times
Been thanked: 331 times

Re: The Goat Debate

#160

Post by Cuckoo4Coco »

ponchi101 wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:08 pm The only player that, for a long time, went out there against Serena without having lost the match already in the locker room due to fear was Henin. She (maaaaaybe) could have been a worthy rival, but also got derailed by an injury.
Another player I don't really remember much about since I was really little when she retired. I do remember she could really move around the court though.
User avatar
meganfernandez United States of America
Posts: 3383
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2020 2:04 pm
Has thanked: 1811 times
Been thanked: 1013 times

Re: The Goat Debate

#161

Post by meganfernandez »

ponchi101 wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:08 pm The only player that, for a long time, went out there against Serena without having lost the match already in the locker room due to fear was Henin. She (maaaaaybe) could have been a worthy rival, but also got derailed by an injury.
You can argue that Serena's lack of a rival was more proof of her greatness - she never let anyone get that close. And playing her sister for so many big titles is a special category of extraordinary competition. That's my takeaway.

Henin was a formidable opponent. Azarenka was starting to challenge Serena until 2013, and then their paths went in different directions for awhile.
User avatar
meganfernandez United States of America
Posts: 3383
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2020 2:04 pm
Has thanked: 1811 times
Been thanked: 1013 times

Re: The Goat Debate

#162

Post by meganfernandez »

ponchi101 wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:08 pm The only player that, for a long time, went out there against Serena without having lost the match already in the locker room due to fear was Henin. She (maaaaaybe) could have been a worthy rival, but also got derailed by an injury.
You can argue that Serena's lack of a rival is a plus in her column because she was that much better than everyone, not that they weren't good enough to challenge her. And playing Venus for so many big titles is a special category of extraordinary competition. That's my takeaway.

Henin was a formidable opponent. Azarenka was starting to challenge Serena until 2013, and then their paths went in different directions for awhile.
User avatar
ponchi101 Venezuela
Site Admin
Posts: 9637
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2020 4:40 pm
Location: New Macondo
Has thanked: 2484 times
Been thanked: 3435 times
Contact:

Re: The Goat Debate

#163

Post by ponchi101 »

As I said in my piece. The "s/he had no competition" is always a circular argument. If you dominate your era, it makes no difference how good your competition was because you, by definition, dominate them.
It is the reason the records by Roger/Rafa/Novak are even more impressive. There is no way you can claim they had no competition.
Ego figere omnia et scio supellectilem
Cuckoo4Coco United States of America
Posts: 1369
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:21 am
Location: USA
Has thanked: 347 times
Been thanked: 331 times

Re: The Goat Debate

#164

Post by Cuckoo4Coco »

ponchi101 wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 7:52 pm As I said in my piece. The "s/he had no competition" is always a circular argument. If you dominate your era, it makes no difference how good your competition was because you, by definition, dominate them.
It is the reason the records by Roger/Rafa/Novak are even more impressive. There is no way you can claim they had no competition.
And with the up and coming guys like Medvedev, Zverev, Tsitsipas, Alcaraz, Berrettini and others will any of them start dominating the trio of GOATS in the upcoming year? Are these the next crop of guys to take over and start dominating the top 3 aging guys? It will be really interesting to see what happens with that and how long Novak/Rafa/ and Roger can hang on.
User avatar
ponchi101 Venezuela
Site Admin
Posts: 9637
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2020 4:40 pm
Location: New Macondo
Has thanked: 2484 times
Been thanked: 3435 times
Contact:

Re: The Goat Debate

#165

Post by ponchi101 »

You were not here when I said this. By now, the moment the big three start losing to the younger crop, it will be age, not the new group, that did it.
It will not be Sampras besting Lendl at the USO at age 19, or Steffi toppling Martina at age 19 too.
But sure, you are correct. It is time for the new guys to start moving in. And it will be sooner rather than later.
Ego figere omnia et scio supellectilem
Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Suliso, Togtdyalttai and 0 guests