ATP & WTA rankings

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Re: ATP & WTA rankings

#481

Post by ponchi101 »

The visa route would be even more complicated. Do you ban "Russian/Belarusian ATHLETES" or do you ban the entire population from both countries to come in? That would be insane.
Not handing out points makes it more complicated. Do you go to those tournaments for the prize money? It would make the entry list for other tournaments even more packed: imagine the list of players trying to go to Halle as opposed to Queens, if Queens does not give points.
When will somebody point out the simplest fact: Russian and Belarusian athletes CANNOT speak out against this war because they don't live in a democracy. If any other athletes voice an opinion against the war, there are no consequences. If a Russian says anything, they can pay a very heavy price.
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Re: ATP & WTA rankings

#482

Post by JazzNU »

Is the point to try to make the the tournaments take a financial hit and possibly a public one because of their decision and since points means a very lackluster field most likely outside of Wimbledon? Because a qualifier level field at the grass court tournaments would be highly unusual. The nature of the short grass season makes the majority of the fields for the tournaments look like Stuttgart and Barcelona, pseudo Masters fields. LTA is used to and expects to have the best of the best compete and attracts crowds based on the names being there from what I can tell.

Otherwise it seems like they could just allow Russian and Belarusian players to maintain their points from last year for this year for the purposes of seeding and ranking, but not the Race. Just do it like they did during the pandemic with tournaments that occurred before a full year had passed, like RG 2020 still being counted after RG 2021 taking place. Allow players that do well this year to be rewarded for their efforts, but also not truly penalize the Russian and Belarusian players that can't participate.
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Re: ATP & WTA rankings

#483

Post by Owendonovan »

I find it odd how easily people are willing to ban teams from Russia and Belarus because they're teams from Russia or Belarus yet banning individuals from those countries is some kind of horrific idea. They've all been subsidized by their countries in one way or another, but it's only the teams that are being punished. Doesn't sit well with me. A Russian gymnast thought it fine to place a big Z on his chest at a competition where Ukranians were competing. Gymnastics is an individual sport like tennis, they are now banned from international competitions for good reason.
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Re: ATP & WTA rankings

#484

Post by ptmcmahon »

I don't find it odd at all. For the team sports they are specifically a team picked by the country to represent the country at the competition.

For individuals they are coming just to represent themselves. Their country didn't select one player to go represent them at Wimbledon for example. If each country got to pick one individual for the competition, then it wouldn't be much different.

Ex "Russia selects Medvedev as their individual entrant for Wimbledon" - if that was the case I'd see no difference. But that's not what's happening here.
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Re: ATP & WTA rankings

#485

Post by ponchi101 »

Owendonovan wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 1:03 pm I find it odd how easily people are willing to ban teams from Russia and Belarus because they're teams from Russia or Belarus yet banning individuals from those countries is some kind of horrific idea. They've all been subsidized by their countries in one way or another, but it's only the teams that are being punished. Doesn't sit well with me. A Russian gymnast thought it fine to place a big Z on his chest at a competition where Ukranians were competing. Gymnastics is an individual sport like tennis, they are now banned from international competitions for good reason.
I don't think we are saying it is a horrific idea, just that it is unfair. An athlete could chose to represent or not his country. The Russian players could decide NOT to plat a teams' competition. But they cannot stop being from a country, just like that.
And I still fall back on my position. There is no way that a tennis player from Russia can really speak out AGAINST this invasion without facing severe repercussions. This is not the USA invading Iraq; any American athlete speaking out against that would have suffered no consequences. Do that as a Russian, and you can even be dead in some time.
And Belarus is an even more brutal regime, as Lukashenko does not even pretend NOT to be a dictator. Sabalenka/Azarenka speak out, and they will not come out of Belarus next time they go there.
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Re: ATP & WTA rankings

#486

Post by JazzNU »

How is gymnastics the same as tennis? If there was a pro tour or something, then that would be different, but there's not. Tennis is like golf, NBA, NFL, NHL. To my knowledge, no Russians or Belarusians are banned from playing pro sports where they enter into a contract as individuals with a team or play at a tournament for a prize as a professional athlete.

Are gymnasts suddenly getting major prize money from the meets they compete in similar to the pro figure skating tour in the 90s that was completely removed from the international federations? Is that prize money being paid from a commercial sponsors directly to the athlete? Or is it still that they win or place and get paid for their placement by their federations? Because the former is the only way it would be at all similar to tennis and other pro sports. It's not just about competing at an event on as an individual, it's also about the structure and nature of the event and competition as well. Ice hockey is a team sport and most of those have been banned. But NHL continues on with many Russian players starting in the playoffs right now. It is the Ice Hockey World Championships where those players and their teams would not be welcome.

The lines between amateur and pro sports have been blurred mightily in recent years, especially in the US. But if you think of it traditionally, it's the amateurs from Russia and Belarus whether they compete as a individual or as a team that are banned from playing as they represent their countries in competitions not just themselves, not the professional athletes.
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Re: ATP & WTA rankings

#487

Post by Owendonovan »

JazzNU wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 7:52 pm How is gymnastics the same as tennis? If there was a pro tour or something, then that would be different, but there's not. Tennis is like golf, NBA, NFL, NHL. To my knowledge, no Russians or Belarusians are banned from playing pro sports where they enter into a contract as individuals with a team or play at a tournament for a prize as a professional athlete.

Are gymnasts suddenly getting major prize money from the meets they compete in similar to the pro figure skating tour in the 90s that was completely removed from the international federations? Is that prize money being paid from a commercial sponsors directly to the athlete? Or is it still that they win or place and get paid for their placement by their federations? Because the former is the only way it would be at all similar to tennis and other pro sports. It's not just about competing at an event on as an individual, it's also about the structure and nature of the event and competition as well. Ice hockey is a team sport and most of those have been banned. But NHL continues on with many Russian players starting in the playoffs right now. It is the Ice Hockey World Championships where those players and their teams would not be welcome.

The lines between amateur and pro sports have been blurred mightily in recent years, especially in the US. But if you think of it traditionally, it's the amateurs from Russia and Belarus whether they compete as a individual or as a team that are banned from playing as they represent their countries in competitions not just themselves, not the professional athletes.
They're both individual sports requiring an extraordinary amount of time and practice to master. You're either banning ATHLETES from countries based on a moral/conciousness decision or you're not. Banning athletes only because of team association does not remove what the athlete had to do to become an elite athlete. I think banning some is half-assed. I could give a crap about the monetary considerations in moral decisions.
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Re: ATP & WTA rankings

#488

Post by ptmcmahon »

I think for most of us it's not an "EITHER we're banning atheltes OR we're not" like it is for you. The real world isn't all black and white. There's a lot of grey as well, such as in this situation.
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Re: ATP & WTA rankings

#489

Post by Owendonovan »

I see the gray, I just don't feel it applies here. That's all.
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Re: ATP & WTA rankings

#490

Post by ptmcmahon »

If you can see the grey (whether or not you think it applies) then why would it be odd that a lot of us think it's not fair to ban individuals in individual sports? Even if you don't think it applies it should be easy to see why most of us at least think it does.
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Re: ATP & WTA rankings

#491

Post by ponchi101 »

If I may say this.
This is a dichotomy decision. Either your ban athletes from a given country (in this case Russia and Belarus) from TEAM and INDIVIDUAL events, or you ban them only from TEAM events but not the INDIVIDUAL events.
The third option, not banning them from anything, is not being discussed.
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Re: ATP & WTA rankings

#492

Post by JazzNU »

ponchi101 wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 3:21 pm If I may say this.
This is a dichotomy decision. Either your ban athletes from a given country (in this case Russia and Belarus) from TEAM and INDIVIDUAL events, or you ban them only from TEAM events but not the INDIVIDUAL events.
The third option, not banning them from anything, is not being discussed.
Traditional Olympic sports that put forth country strongly and where the country is heavily funding the training program is where the bans are though. And it's across team and individual events, not one or the other. Swimming, skiing, and diving have the same bans as water polo and volleyball. Pro sports, team and individual, has not widely imposed the same bans. This is getting so much attention because Wimbledon's decision is very much an outlier in the world of professional sports. And it's a decision that is different than has been taken in the past when bans were in place, during Apartheid for instance.
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Re: ATP & WTA rankings

#493

Post by ti-amie »

What's this about Sakkari being ranked #2 in time for RG?
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Re: ATP & WTA rankings

#494

Post by Owendonovan »

ptmcmahon wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 2:37 pm If you can see the grey (whether or not you think it applies) then why would it be odd that a lot of us think it's not fair to ban individuals in individual sports? Even if you don't think it applies it should be easy to see why most of us at least think it does.
I think the oddness I find is there seems to be such a hard no on teams and such a hard yes on individuals, they're both playing sports that most likely took the same amount of training, commitment, sacrifice to get to the elite level. Taking away a flag icon next to a Russian/Belorussian players name doesn't make them any less from those countries, it's rather silly. My thinking is if there's enough Russian/Belorussian "stars" complaining to their governments, maybe that needle starts to move in the right direction, they can't jail everyone. There's been a mass exodus of creative/artistic/cultural types who've left Russia, denouncing the country on the way out. I'd like to see that happen with sports.
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Re: ATP & WTA rankings

#495

Post by ponchi101 »

Owendonovan wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 2:55 am
ptmcmahon wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 2:37 pm If you can see the grey (whether or not you think it applies) then why would it be odd that a lot of us think it's not fair to ban individuals in individual sports? Even if you don't think it applies it should be easy to see why most of us at least think it does.
I think the oddness I find is there seems to be such a hard no on teams and such a hard yes on individuals, they're both playing sports that most likely took the same amount of training, commitment, sacrifice to get to the elite level. Taking away a flag icon next to a Russian/Belorussian players name doesn't make them any less from those countries, it's rather silly. My thinking is if there's enough Russian/Belorussian "stars" complaining to their governments, maybe that needle starts to move in the right direction, they can't jail everyone. There's been a mass exodus of creative/artistic/cultural types who've left Russia, denouncing the country on the way out. I'd like to see that happen with sports.
All I will add is about the bold section. They don't need to jail everyone. They just need to jail a few or, more macabre, have something done to them. Then, everybody that is not jailed simply knows that it is a lottery, with everybody having many tickets.
That is how dictatorships work. They don't jail everyone, they work through intimidation. And I can't speak for Russia, but in Venezuela, that is how they crushed the opposition, especially the young kids. After the stories about the brutality in places with names such as "the grave", the kids simply got crushed in spirit. And some other were crushed in more graphic ways.
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