Tennis Random, Random (On Court)

[Deuce]

Easy for us to pontificate, but I wonder how it was during WWII. Did Americans or Canadians played sports with Germans on a neutral ground and said it's just a game and let's keep politics out? I think the situation is very similar only on smaller scale.

In the same sense that we (here at the forum) have stated that the Russians and Belarusians, being individuals, should not be singled out for a collective action done by their countries (and we have been clear that they can't even openly oppose the actions of their governments, as they are dictatorial), Kostyuk as an individual has the right to proceed with her actions. She has the right to decide that these other players represent the countries attacking hers, and therefore the very little she can do, she will do.
She has been consistent in her approach. And this, being an exceptional situation, is one that I can accept.

There is a country that has done incredible harm to mine, during our 25 years of dictatorship. I do not mingle with people from that country. it is very hard to swallow.

That approach - and Kostyuk's - does not seem to be many degrees away from blaming all Muslim people for terrorism, or from blaming all Chinese people for COVID-19.
Essentially, it's very near the Trump stereotyping approach.
As I said, I believe that society in general has evolved beyond that point in the past 100 years.
But there are exceptions, unfortunately.

If one feels that it's unacceptable to ban individual Russian and Belarusian players from tennis tournaments strictly due to their nationality, how can one then turn around and accept how Kostyuk is treating these same people?
If one feels that these individuals deserve to be respected as individuals, how can Kostyuk's blatant and vociferous disrespect be acceptable?

Kostyuk, because of her high profile, has the opportunity to do something positive for human relations in respecting her Russian and Belarusian opponents - and even further, by being open to dialogue. Instead, she is taking the approach of two wrongs trying to make a right - which we all know is a selfish, immature, and erroneous approach.

Further, as to her having the right to behave this way... I'm not sure that she does have that right, according to the sporting code. I believe the sporting code mentions that one should treat their opponents with respect. And the sporting code of tennis might even mention that players must shake hands after a match. Granted, exceptions can be made periodically, as we've sometimes seen, for two players who have an active conflict with one another during a match... but is there an exception permitted for ongoing and blatant bias and prejudice against particular nationalities?
I doubt it.

Respecting your opponent is just as important an element as trying your best. Not trying one's best is generally not accepted in sports - it is looked down upon. Not respecting one's opponent should be viewed in the same way.
I agree with the premise that if you take to the court and play a match, you shake hands when the match is completed, win or lose. If you are not prepared to shake hands at the conclusion of the match - if you do not respect your opponent enough to shake his or her hand - then you don't embark on the court to play the match.

[ashkor87]

Interesting to note : the active woman player with the most major titles now is Venus! She has 7, equal to Osaka and Swiatek combined!

[ponchi101]

I think Venus is going to do what Connors did. Never announce retirement, as a way of saying that he was, and always would be, a tennis player. Venus may do that too.

[nelslus]

Interesting to note : the active woman player with the most major titles now is Venus! She has 7, equal to Osaka and Swiatek combined!

....AND then if you add in Slam women's and mixed doubles titles....

[ti-amie]

Spinopsys
@spinopsys@aus.social
Novak Djokovic still hasn't pulled out of the Miami 1000 event and it looks like he may end up in the middle of yet another cultural and ideological stoush over his inability to read a room.

Fascist Florida Governor Ron de Santis is demanding he be allowed to play despite federal rules regarding Covid vaccination and entry into the US.

I can see Novak just showing up and De Santis providing police protection while forcing the tournament to allow him to play because this is the timeline we all live in now #Tennis

https://aus.social/@spinopsys/109990052329296601

[ponchi101]

Novak would also have to be allowed to BOARD the plane at any airport he would wish to do so, and that goes against IATA regulations; airlines must ensure that all boarding passengers comply with the regulations of the destination. Any airlines allowing him to board would risk sanctions.

[Owendonovan]

What say you?
I'm fine with Kostyuk snubbing Russian and Belorussian players. I'm coming at this from an activists perspective. She has a very large public platform and she's using it to keep the awareness of what has happened to her country front and center. Marta is taking the action she feels she needs to make. It's not good sports(wo)menship, but it doesn't seem to be about that for her. Why shake the hand of someone who maintains an allegiance to a country destroying yours for no good reason? She's incredibly brave to me, trying to force other players hands, so to speak, very publicly. It's gutsy.
If the current players from Russia and Belarus were more forceful in their opposition to the war, maybe she would behave differently. They all have the same opportunity to use the same platform as Marta. If every professional Russian athlete denounced the war, that word would spread quickly through Russia and could be the catalyst for the end of Putin and war. I would venture to say they could all easily afford to leave their countries with their families. People often take governments down once an ugly truth is exposed to enough of the people.
If you have a global platform and are passionate about something, use it. I wish I had one. The best acceptance/award speeches are those with some nugget of activism in them.

[Deuce]

What say you?
I'm fine with Kostyuk snubbing Russian and Belorussian players. I'm coming at this from an activists perspective. She has a very large public platform and she's using it to keep the awareness of what has happened to her country front and center. Marta is taking the action she feels she needs to make. It's not good sports(wo)menship, but it doesn't seem to be about that for her. Why shake the hand of someone who maintains an allegiance to a country destroying yours for no good reason? She's incredibly brave to me, trying to force other players hands, so to speak, very publicly. It's gutsy.
If the current players from Russia and Belarus were more forceful in their opposition to the war, maybe she would behave differently. They all have the same opportunity to use the same platform as Marta. If every professional Russian athlete denounced the war, that word would spread quickly through Russia and could be the catalyst for the end of Putin and war. I would venture to say they could all easily afford to leave their countries with their families. People often take governments down once an ugly truth is exposed to enough of the people.
If you have a global platform and are passionate about something, use it. I wish I had one. The best acceptance/award speeches are those with some nugget of activism in them.

Well... as I've stated several times, I disagree with this perspective - for the reasons I've stated.
Activism must target the RIGHT PEOPLE to be effective. Activism should be fair, and not throw a blanket over ALL people based on an irrelevant common denominator like guilt by association, or nationality, for that is rightly called discrimination, prejudice, unfair bias, etc.
I think far more positivity would be accomplished if Kostyuk respected her Russian and Belarusian opponents, and was open to dialogue. Her current position, to me, reeks of inexperience, immaturity, and ignorance.

How would you feel if I constantly showed you no respect and consistently asked ponchi to ban you from this message board because your brother spit in my face?
I would have had no previous problem with you, and I wouldn't know your perspective on your brother spitting in my face, because I would refuse to talk with you at all after the spitting incident - but I would know that your brother might literally kill you if you stated anywhere that his spitting in my face was wrong.
Would I be justified in my disrespect of you and my attempts to get you banned from this message board? Following your perspective on Kostyuk, you'd have no problem with me behaving in the same manner as she is - complete guilt by mere association.

The fact is that it is potentially dangerous for these Russian (and even Belarusian) players to come out and publicly denounce the Russian invasion of Ukraine. You say "I would venture to say they could all easily afford to leave their countries with their families". Yes - perhaps they can financially afford to do so - but it's obviously not that easy. It's not as simple as a family deciding to move from Oregon to Delaware. In Russia, there are consequences - often severe consequences - for anyone who speaks out against the government or their actions. And that includes consequences for the families of those who speak out.

If Kostyuk would behave this way toward players who openly support the Russian invasion of Ukraine, I would not have a problem with it. But to treat ALL Russian and Belarusian players with contempt and disrespect based solely on their nationality, employing the act of guilt by association, and not based on their character or perspectives or beliefs, is pure prejudice and discrimination - and that's why it's fundamentally wrong.

And I would assume that the Russian and Belarusian players who DO oppose the invasion are reluctant to tell Kostyuk that - for fear that, in her immaturity, she'll blab it all over the media, which would then compromise the safety of the families of those players.
Because of the manner in which she has behaved, I doubt that any Russian/Belarusian players trust her - and with good reason.
As I said - she could have been an important and integral ingredient in helping the situation. But instead, she has chosen to bring all of the wrong of the invasion, and all of its negativity, to the tennis courts.
Two wrongs never make a right, no matter how hard one tries, or how loud one yells.

[Owendonovan]

Two wrongs never make a right, no matter how hard one tries, or how loud one yells.

I don't think she sees it as a wrong. She's taken her stand and I respect that. Sure it reeks of inexperience, she was thrown into this completely unprepared because, who thinks their country is going to be invaded? There's certainly a better approach, but we don't know what, if any, discussions she's had with other players.
I can see advertisers becoming more interested in her matches just for the snub moment.(just a cynical aside that popped in my head)
Your points are valid, but I also validate the noise Marta's making. There's a good chance it bites her in the ass, but she's not being sanctioned or anything yet, so she's good for now.
As I've said before, I get the risk of speaking out.

And I would assume that the Russian and Belarusian players who DO oppose the invasion are reluctant to tell Kostyuk that - for fear that, in her immaturity, she'll blab it all over the media, which would then compromise the safety of the families of those players

Good point.
There's too much fear involved, fearful of doing the right thing and equally fearful of doing the wrong thing. It's just a bad situation people got thrown into and are trying to deal with it in a way they can live with themselves.

[Deuce]

Two wrongs never make a right, no matter how hard one tries, or how loud one yells.

I don't think she sees it as a wrong. She's taken her stand and I respect that. Sure it reeks of inexperience, she was thrown into this completely unprepared because, who thinks their country is going to be invaded? There's certainly a better approach, but we don't know what, if any, discussions she's had with other players.

^ She has stated on more than one occasion that she does not - and will not - speak or associate in any way with her Russian and Belarusian fellow players.
It's obviously quite difficult to solve any problem when one party completely refuses any discussion or dialogue.

I can see advertisers becoming more interested in her matches just for the snub moment.(just a cynical aside that popped in my head)

^ Yes - controversy sells, unfortunately. That's why Kyrgios has always been popular, in spite of his poor results on the court.

Your points are valid, but I also validate the noise Marta's making. There's a good chance it bites her in the ass, but she's not being sanctioned or anything yet, so she's good for now.
As I've said before, I get the risk of speaking out.

^ One of my main points is that if one considers blanket discrimination and prejudice and guilt by mere association to be wrong, then it is ALWAYS wrong. You can't pick and choose based on what is convenient for you or on what affects you directly and what does not.
If one feels that blanket prejudice and discrimination against gays or blacks or Chinese or Muslim people - or whatever group of people - is wrong, then what Kostyuyk is doing is wrong.
Conversely, if one finds Kostyuk's actions acceptable, then that same person must also find all blanket discrimination/prejudice/guilt by mere association acceptable.
You can't conveniently pick and choose based on whether or not you are directly affected or not.

[Deuce]

And with that, Kostyuk is out of Indian Wells in the 1st round - three 7-5 sets to Rebecca Peterson.
And I am happy that the tournament, the fans, and the players won't have to deal with her negative disrespect toward selected fellow players - at least not in singles.

[Owendonovan]

I view what she's doing more as a boycott than discrimination.

[Deuce]

I view what she's doing more as a boycott than discrimination.

But she's not merely boycotting Russian cars or Belarusian beer, Owen - she's 'boycotting' individual human beings - people who are her peers in her chosen profession, and with whom she must compete. What she's doing is on a personal level with individuals - individuals who have done nothing to harm her or her country, and whose only 'crime' is having been born in Russia or Belarus. And that is not a crime. But Kostyuk IS treating them as criminals - and is disrespecting them at every opportunity, all based solely on their nationality.
To me, this certainly fits the definition of discrimination and prejudice.

If someone disrespects, avoids, and calls for the banning of Muslim individuals on the basis that some Muslims are terrorists, or of Chinese individuals on the basis that COVID-19 started in China, is that also a justifiable boycott? Or is that discrimination?
I see no difference between that and what Kostyuk is doing.

[ti-amie]

Kostyuk, in my opinion, knows exactly why fellow players can't say anything publicly re their feelings on the invasion. Azarenka regularly visits family in Belarus. I'm pretty sure many of the Russian players have family there. And yet she persists making loud, public statements and denigrating her peers.

Deuce has a point. No other Ukrainian player has made the public fuss Kostyuk has. Dolgo, no longer an active player, is very vocal on social media but he hasn't attacked any active, or inactive players publicly.

[ponchi101]

Stakowski did call out Troicki for playing in Moscow (last year).

Devil's advocate. Can Kostyuk do anything else? Svitolina has called for Russian players to be banned (won't happen), so, as a player, there is almost nothing Kostyuk can do.
And I don't know if her friends and relatives back home would be ok if she does shake hands. "You are shaking hands with the people of the tribe that is bombarding ours".
She is also in a loss-loss scenario.