'22 AO Day 9 OoP & Discussion

Talk and announcements about the big 4 tournaments
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Re: '22 AO Day 9 OoP & Discussion

#31

Post by Deuce »

Monfils can definitely win this match.
It might all depend on how much he wants to (which is often the case with him).
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Re: '22 AO Day 9 OoP & Discussion

#32

Post by mick1303 »

Since I consider Nadal possible winning AO as a big downside to the sport of tennis overall given the circumstances of Djokovic absence, I have to look now at who can stop him. I have more faith in Berretini than in Monfils here. Talking about the final is premature, because we don't know what kind of form will other finalist bring after quarters and semis.

If someone other than Nadal wins it - ok this win will be somewhat asterisked, but nobody of other players here contests for the title of the best ever. But Nadal does. And if he will surge ahead when Djokovic is absent for reasons not related to tennis, this would invalidate all future discussions on the matter. And it would be sad IMO.
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Re: '22 AO Day 9 OoP & Discussion

#33

Post by Deuce »

Down 2 sets to love now, Monfils can no longer win. He had several chances in the 2nd set, but let them go.
Now, it's showtime - he'll hit some fancy shots to show everyone what he can do.
It's too bad he's always been more interested in showing off his athleticism than in winning the big matches.
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Re: '22 AO Day 9 OoP & Discussion

#34

Post by Deuce »

mick1303 wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:39 am Since I consider Nadal possible winning AO as a big downside to the sport of tennis overall given the circumstances of Djokovic absence, I have to look now at who can stop him. I have more faith in Berretini than in Monfils here. Talking about the final is premature, because we don't know what kind of form will other finalist bring after quarters and semis.

If someone other than Nadal wins it - ok this win will be somewhat asterisked, but nobody of other players here contests for the title of the best ever. But Nadal does. And if he will surge ahead when Djokovic is absent for reasons not related to tennis, this would invalidate all future discussions on the matter. And it would be sad IMO.
I wouldn't say that whoever wins this is not a legitimate winner. Djokovic made a choice. He knew what the conditions were to play, and he chose not to abide by those conditions. In that sense, it's no different than if he wanted to play with a racquet that was longer than the rules permit, and refused to play with any other racquet. In other words, he disqualified himself. If he were arrested for murder and didn't play because he was in prison, it would be similar - he would be absent via his own actions.

He's not playing entirely through his own doing. Not due to injury or some fluke occurrence - but by his own decision. Just like Tennys Sandgren, who also chose not to abide by the conditions.
These guys had the option of getting vaccinated. They chose not to. Sandgren had no illusions about manipulating the system in order to get into the tournament. Djokovic did. He knew the rules and thought he was above them; thought he could get in through a crack. He was wrong. He gambled and lost.

So, to take credit away from the eventual winner here because of Djokovic's entirely voluntary actions would be wrong.

.
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Re: '22 AO Day 9 OoP & Discussion

#35

Post by mick1303 »

Deuce wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:50 am
mick1303 wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:39 am Since I consider Nadal possible winning AO as a big downside to the sport of tennis overall given the circumstances of Djokovic absence, I have to look now at who can stop him. I have more faith in Berretini than in Monfils here. Talking about the final is premature, because we don't know what kind of form will other finalist bring after quarters and semis.

If someone other than Nadal wins it - ok this win will be somewhat asterisked, but nobody of other players here contests for the title of the best ever. But Nadal does. And if he will surge ahead when Djokovic is absent for reasons not related to tennis, this would invalidate all future discussions on the matter. And it would be sad IMO.
I wouldn't say that whoever wins this is not a legitimate winner. Djokovic made a choice. He knew what the conditions were to play, and he chose not to abide by those conditions. In that sense, it's no different than if he wanted to play with a racquet that was longer than the rules permit, and refused to play with any other racquet. In other words, he disqualified himself. If he were arrested for murder and didn't play because he was in prison, it would be similar - he would be absent via his own actions.

He's not playing entirely through his own doing. Not due to injury or some fluke occurrence - but by his own decision. Just like Tennys Sandgren, who also chose not to abide by the conditions.
These guys had the option of getting vaccinated. They chose not to. Sandgren had no illusions about manipulating the system in order to get into the tournament. Djokovic did. He knew the rules and thought he was above them; thought he could get in through a crack. He was wrong. He gambled and lost.

So, to take credit away from the eventual winner here because of Djokovic's entirely voluntary actions would be wrong.

.
There is more than one way to look at this. But since the issue is beaten to death, I don't want to discuss it further. Hope Matteo wins in 4.
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Re: '22 AO Day 9 OoP & Discussion

#36

Post by Deuce »

Going against his history and reputation, Monfils is actually hanging in there (with a lot of help from Berrettini). After he lost the 2nd, I truly thought he'd be gone in 3 - or in 4 at the most.
Maybe the security of marriage has served as motivation - and increased maturity. Maybe he actually has a desire to win now.
That would be a good thing, as he's obviously enormously talented. A little late, though, at 35 years old.

These guys are going 5 sets and close to 4 hours (by the end), and their reward is to play Nadal. Perhaps the factor that evens out that eventual matchup to a degree is that Nadal had to play in the hot sun, whereas these guys are playing at night.

The chair umpires are being rather bold at this tournament, with a few of them directly admonishing people in the crowd. Like right now, where the umpire said directly to a person - or group - in the crowd "If you don't want to watch, please leave."
I like that.
R.I.P. Amal...

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Re: '22 AO Day 9 OoP & Discussion

#37

Post by meganfernandez »

jazzyg wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:05 am OK, I've seen one too many comments about Cornet as a possible tournament winner.

She is going to have a hard time winning games against Collins in the quarters if Collins is healthy.
It's a long shot but I do think she could make the final if Kanepi wins. I think Cornet could beat Collins but would lose to Swiatek. Bug what do I know. I haven't even seen Swiatek play this tournament. I think Swiatek is the clear favorite in the bottom half but anyone could make the final. What a huge opportunity!
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Re: '22 AO Day 9 OoP & Discussion

#38

Post by meganfernandez »

Same. Damn. People. in the quarters. Was really hoping Monfils would pull it off. Maybe Sinner can shake things up. Not giving Felix much of a chance. Maybe I should.
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Re: '22 AO Day 9 OoP & Discussion

#39

Post by jazzyg »

Deuce wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:08 am
Yeah - I wasn't anticipating the upset stomach. But even with that, I never doubted he'd win. He pretty much always finds a way to win the important matches - except sometimes when Federer or Djokovic are around. He's not going to lose to someone like Denis at a Major. He's just much more contained, disciplined, and mature than Denis - much less 'wild'.
I'm just shaking my head. Shapovalov absolutely, positively had a chance to win that match, but you've made your intensely negative feelings about Shapovalov's game well known. You have your views on Canadian players and refuse to change them regardless of what happens. Yes, Shapovalov's looseness caught up to him at the end, but it was by no means inevitable. Nadal was lucky to win that match. If Shapo had converted any of the three break points he had early in the fifth set--and he had a good look at the last two--he would have been the clear favorite. Nadal's a 35-year-old coming off a six-month layoff, and Shapovalov has the perfect game to beat him. He won about five points with athletic plays at the net that would have been certain Nadal winners against anyone else left in the field.

I thought Nadal would lose going into that match, but now he has a chance to win the tournament because none of the players left have games that match up with his as well as Shapo's. Berrettini has the serve and willpower, but he does not have the speed. The number one factor in being able to beat Rafa is the ability to chase down his huge shots and get them back deep because anything short is a killer against him and once he gets on top of a point, he almost never loses it.

Medvedev is a terrific talent and has the belief and results to beat Rafa, but he plays too far behind the baseline and is not aggressive enough during rallies. If he beats Rafa, it will be because of his confidence because the matchup itself is a problem.

Tsitsipas has the will power and the speed, but I'm not sure he's playing very well right now. Have not seen any of his matches.

Sinner does not play defense well enough and can't come to the net to finish off points.

Auger-Aliassime is too up and down from day to match and within matches, although if he really puts it together, he matches up with Rafa the best of the remaining players because of his serve, firepower and movement.

Regardless, it should be interesting. Every quarterfinalist deserves to be there and has serious game.

The truly inevitable result was Berrettini winning the fifth set easily over Monfils. On one side, you had a player who cares immensely about winning and puts in the time to ensure it happens. On the other side, you had a player who cares about entertaining and competing but is not consumed about winning or getting in tip-top shape and always comes up empty when it matters in slams. This one was reminiscent of the match Monfils lost to Murray at Roland Garrros years ago when he rallied from a two-set deficit to equalize and had the entire stadium rocking as darkness approached, then lost the fifth set in like 20 minutes when his game disintegrated.
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Re: '22 AO Day 9 OoP & Discussion

#40

Post by jazzyg »

meganfernandez wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 2:11 pm
jazzyg wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:05 am OK, I've seen one too many comments about Cornet as a possible tournament winner.

She is going to have a hard time winning games against Collins in the quarters if Collins is healthy.
It's a long shot but I do think she could make the final if Kanepi wins. I think Cornet could beat Collins but would lose to Swiatek. Bug what do I know. I haven't even seen Swiatek play this tournament. I think Swiatek is the clear favorite in the bottom half but anyone could make the final. What a huge opportunity!
First off, I've shown in the past that like anyone, I have the infinite capacity to be wrong, but I watch every point of almost every match Halep plays on TV, and she simply played terribly against Cornet, likely in large part to being sick. She hit brilliant shots on the first two match points she faced, and she played a gorgeous point on the very first point of the match. Other than that, it was by far her worst performance of any of her seven this year, as typified by the incredibly lame service return into the bottom of the net on the final match point.

If Collins' back is OK, she is going to hit about 20 service return winners against Cornet. I can see a scoreline of 6-2, 6-2 if Cornet gets frustrated. If not, Cornet is capable of hanging close in one of the two sets. She was down 6-4, 4-1, 30-0 to Zidansek in the third round while Zidansek was playing hurt. Collins is a better player with a lot more self belief on hard courts than Zidansek.
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Re: '22 AO Day 9 OoP & Discussion

#41

Post by Deuce »

jazzyg wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 2:14 pm
Deuce wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:08 am
Yeah - I wasn't anticipating the upset stomach. But even with that, I never doubted he'd win. He pretty much always finds a way to win the important matches - except sometimes when Federer or Djokovic are around. He's not going to lose to someone like Denis at a Major. He's just much more contained, disciplined, and mature than Denis - much less 'wild'.
I'm just shaking my head. Shapovalov absolutely, positively had a chance to win that match, but you've made your intensely negative feelings about Shapovalov's game well known. You have your views on Canadian players and refuse to change them regardless of what happens.
^ No - I refuse to change my perspective BECAUSE of what happens.
jazzyg wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 2:14 pm Yes, Shapovalov's looseness caught up to him at the end, but it was by no means inevitable.
^ Yup - it was inevitable.
jazzyg wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 2:14 pm Nadal was lucky to win that match.
^ Nope - Nadal won because he has a much more mature desire to win than Denis does.
And because he's got much more experience.
That's why it was inevitable (barring injury).
jazzyg wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 2:14 pm If Shapo had converted any of the three break points he had early in the fifth set--and he had a good look at the last two--he would have been the clear favorite.
^ He might have been the 'clear favourite' in that circumstance vs. some other players, but not vs. Nadal. Regardless of what Denis did, Nadal was going to win that match if he remained physically healthy enough. Denis is simply not in the same league.
jazzyg wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 2:14 pm Nadal's a 35-year-old coming off a six-month layoff,
^ No - he's a little more than that. Just slightly... :D
jazzyg wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 2:14 pmand Shapovalov has the perfect game to beat him. He won about five points with athletic plays at the net that would have been certain Nadal winners against anyone else left in the field.
^ Denis is still much too wild and immature and inconsistent. Therefore, he doesn't "have the perfect game to beat Nadal" - because the game consists not only of physical ability, but also of mental fortitude - and Nadal is miles ahead of Denis in that very important category.
jazzyg wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 2:14 pmThe number one factor in being able to beat Rafa is the ability to chase down his huge shots and get them back deep because anything short is a killer against him and once he gets on top of a point, he almost never loses it.
^ I think the primary factor in beating Nadal is to be mentally stronger than him; to want to win more than him - and that's much, much, much easier said than done.
jazzyg wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 2:14 pmAuger-Aliassime is too up and down from day to match and within matches, although if he really puts it together, he matches up with Rafa the best of the remaining players because of his serve, firepower and movement.
^ Felix is too inconsistent, but Denis isn't??
As inconsistent as Felix is, Denis is even more inconsistent. Part of that is because he plays a much riskier game than Felix. Another part of it is because Felix is considerably more mature than Denis.
jazzyg wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 2:14 pmRegardless, it should be interesting. Every quarterfinalist deserves to be there and has serious game.
^ I agree on both counts.
jazzyg wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 2:14 pmThe truly inevitable result was Berrettini winning the fifth set easily over Monfils. On one side, you had a player who cares immensely about winning and puts in the time to ensure it happens. On the other side, you had a player who cares about entertaining and competing but is not consumed about winning or getting in tip-top shape and always comes up empty when it matters in slams. This one was reminiscent of the match Monfils lost to Murray at Roland Garrros years ago when he rallied from a two-set deficit to equalize and had the entire stadium rocking as darkness approached, then lost the fifth set in like 20 minutes when his game disintegrated.
^ I agree here, too. :D
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Re: '22 AO Day 9 OoP & Discussion

#42

Post by ponchi101 »

The only tournament win I will ever put an asterisk on is the 1973 Wimbledon, which has an asterisk because the entire tour boycotted it (ATP). If you put an asterisk on every tournament in which the top player in the world was unable to play, wow, that disqualifies a lot of history.
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Re: '22 AO Day 9 OoP & Discussion

#43

Post by mick1303 »

ponchi101 wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 3:59 pm The only tournament win I will ever put an asterisk on is the 1973 Wimbledon, which has an asterisk because the entire tour boycotted it (ATP). If you put an asterisk on every tournament in which the top player in the world was unable to play, wow, that disqualifies a lot of history.
The players are absent due to "natural" reasons: injuries, loss of form. It is tennis related. No asterisks needed. But when someone stabs the player with a knife or "Open" tournament becomes not so open for political reasons - this is not about tennis. I consider these reasons "not natural". But that is just me.
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Re: '22 AO Day 9 OoP & Discussion

#44

Post by ponchi101 »

Serious question. As you say that the tournament is not open for political reasons: do you think that Djokovic not being allowed to enter the country was for political reasons? Why would Australia want to ban Novak? If they wanted, wasn't it like 8 slams too late? And Australia has a very large Serbian migrant population, which says that they are not anti-Serbian (Tomljanovic is of Serbain parents, and almost all Aussie tennis players are from foreing parenets). I am really curious.
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Re: '22 AO Day 9 OoP & Discussion

#45

Post by JazzNU »

I'll repeat what I said yesterday, the ATP has a real likability problem at the top of the sport. What a brat.
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