'22 RG Day 9 OoP & Discussion

Talk and announcements about the big 4 tournaments
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Re: '22 RG Day 9 OoP & Discussion

#61

Post by ti-amie »

He's going to bear watching by hardcore fans of tennis. If he has any success the media will try and bury this about him. Casual fans will go to a tournament and cheer him. That is when Tennis Twitter will have to step up and keep the heat on him just like its doing now with Zverev and to a lesser extent Basilashvili.
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Re: '22 RG Day 9 OoP & Discussion

#62

Post by nelslus »

Look- I don't think any of us are exactly ready to start up an LGBTQ protest march at Rune's residence, nor will we be crying in our pillows tonight. (Albeit, BTW, I learned as a child not to ever use "those" terms, so bump giving Rune any youth age excuse.) What is indeed problematic is when an ongoing member of the TAT community (which would not be me) is vulnerable and open enough to express his concerns, including that this site is not as inclusive as some apparently think- only IMO to get discounted- that is just plain inappropriate.

Here's the deal: Especially if you are not a member of a group of people- especially if you are a white heterosexual male- and people in such groups express concerns- just listen. Truly, we Caucasian males just need to learn to STFU and put our privilege aside sometimes- I learned this ages ago for myself. Just listen. Learn. In this case, I truly feel that an apology is owed Kevin. (And, I'm not above being bitchy enough to say, please note who is liking your posts in this thread.)

What is deeply frustrating for me, and is one of the reasons I pretty much only come in here for the Pools (you'll have to irk me far worse for me to give up on those pretty little imaginary awards), is that, at least, I genuinely like almost everyone in here a lot. But, IMO, certain similar issues just keep coming up in this site. When this happens for a member too often- it becomes way too exhausting.

LOL, I can't even believe I'm responding, since I've been relegated as the crazy aunt to be kept in the TAT attic. But, for those of us who continue to tilt at those windmills- here is my support.
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Re: '22 RG Day 9 OoP & Discussion

#63

Post by nelslus »

ti-amie wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 1:33 am He's going to bear watching by hardcore fans of tennis. If he has any success the media will try and bury this about him. Casual fans will go to a tournament and cheer him. That is when Tennis Twitter will have to step up and keep the heat on him just like its doing now with Zverev and to a lesser extent Basilashvili.
OMG, the Zverev general media burial makes me so infuriated. TRUST that, at least in the SF, I will be a rabid Rafa fan.
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Re: '22 RG Day 9 OoP & Discussion

#64

Post by ti-amie »

Almost the entire RG Twitter feed features him. Terrible.
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Re: '22 RG Day 9 OoP & Discussion

#65

Post by Deuce »

It's always interesting that those who claim to be the most 'non-judgemental' and 'tolerant' are often the most judgemental and intolerant.
It's an equation which seems to never fail.

"CONDEMNATION IS WRONG! STEREOTYPING IS OFFENSIVE!", they loudly say with their words... and then they add, in 'code' "except for the people who I want to condemn and stereotype - then condemnation and stereotyping is good!"
And once they decide that someone is 'bad', they NEVER let up. It matters not if the 'bad' person matures as he/she ages... it matters not if evidence is introduced to clarify things and show that things are not as they were originally perceived to be in the rush to judgement... no way - that person is condemned(!) as being 'bad' for life by these 'non-judgemental' and 'tolerant' people!

Suffice to say that the incredible degree of irony and hypocrisy is not lost on me.

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Re: '22 RG Day 9 OoP & Discussion

#66

Post by Suliso »

ti-amie wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 1:33 am He's going to bear watching by hardcore fans of tennis. If he has any success the media will try and bury this about him. Casual fans will go to a tournament and cheer him. That is when Tennis Twitter will have to step up and keep the heat on him just like its doing now with Zverev and to a lesser extent Basilashvili.
Keep the heat on for what reason? Zverev is a very different situation - he actually abused someone. Makes no sense to me.
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Re: '22 RG Day 9 OoP & Discussion

#67

Post by JTContinental »

Can someone move this out of the day 9 OOP topic? It’s worth discussing but way off topic
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Re: '22 RG Day 9 OoP & Discussion

#68

Post by ponchi101 »

It could be moved, but where to? We don't have a topic for this conversation, unless we move it to RANDOM, and then it will be lost in there. If you have an idea to start another topic, you can do so and then these last posts can be moved.

About the subject. In no particular order.
TAT2.0 is NOT a safe space. That is not what this forum is in cyberspace for. Our rules are that you cannot be INSULTED directly, as if you are named-called by a slur or something as simple as a words like "Idiot, stupid, dumb". You cannot be called those. But the rules of the forum do not guarantee, and I feel they cannot guarantee, that you will not feel insulted or offended by IDEAS or CONCEPTS proposed by other people. And those, we cannot regulate to a point. If you propose hurtful action to a group, that can be easily spotted. But the concept of freedom of speech here in the forum must be applied, and I, or any moderator, don't have a precise guide rule on what to consider "insulting". Therefore, sometimes some posts will not be of somebody's liking. I really can't see how to stop that.
The inclusiveness of the forum. Part of that inclusiveness involves that we have members from around the world, from different cultures. Those cultural opinions are welcomed and can be expressed. As I have said before, the forum leans heavily towards the liberal, and this IS a liberal bubble; we seldom hear opinions that are not pro-LGBTQ rights, pro-women's rights, pro-minorities rights, or others. We certainly have no people here that are American Republican conservatives, because they have opted out of the forum. I wish we had a few, REASONABLE such voices (and some of you will laugh at the concept, while others will wonder if there are any of those) because I would want to hear other positions, but the forum is what it is. It is also the reason only about 20 of us interact on a regular basis, with that number dwindling.
About STFU. That is, again, an American concept, to be applied to White, Heterosexual Males. I believe it provides little value, as when nothing is discussed, nothing is learned. And, if that particular group is told NOT to speak, it sounds like censorship to me. I would not approve of such a policy.
Having said that. The sole person in this forum that has to STFU is ME, and that is because of a technical reason. I am the only person that cannot be banned from the forum, technically (site admin privileges). Other than that, everybody else here can post their culturally, racially, age-biased, different opinion as they please. And I gather that I and the rest of the moderating staff will have the non-enviable task of trying to moderate areas of speech that are basically pure shades of grey.

Last. If somebody, as little as one person, believes that I should be removed from Site Admin positions, please let me know via PM and, if you want the position, I will consider transferring it. And no, I am not playing the martyr, but this site should not be run by somebody if people believe such a person is not the right profile to do so.
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Re: '22 RG Day 9 OoP & Discussion

#69

Post by JTContinental »

I don't see any need for drastic action--this was just discussion and pretty respectful on all sides. I also don't think anyone is word or thought policing, just offering a viewpoint from people who have likely been called that term more than once in their life (I have a particularly fond memory of someone screaming it out the window of their car as they whipped a full milkshake at my head, for example), and the impact it has.

From a personal standpoint, I don't have any ill will toward anyone who isn't agreeing with me, but that doesn't mean I won't argue vociferously with them. :D
Last edited by JTContinental on Wed Jun 01, 2022 9:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: '22 RG Day 9 OoP & Discussion

#70

Post by JTContinental »

Deuce wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 3:49 am It's always interesting that those who claim to be the most 'non-judgemental' and 'tolerant' are often the most judgemental and intolerant.
It's an equation which seems to never fail.

"CONDEMNATION IS WRONG! STEREOTYPING IS OFFENSIVE!", they loudly say with their words... and then they add, in 'code' "except for the people who I want to condemn and stereotype - then condemnation and stereotyping is good!"
And once they decide that someone is 'bad', they NEVER let up. It matters not if the 'bad' person matures as he/she ages... it matters not if evidence is introduced to clarify things and show that things are not as they were originally perceived to be in the rush to judgement... no way - that person is condemned(!) as being 'bad' for life by these 'non-judgemental' and 'tolerant' people!

Suffice to say that the incredible degree of irony and hypocrisy is not lost on me.

.
None of this is happening in this discussion. No one has said anything about branding Rune as anything, in fact I see the opposite. Obviously people grow and change; however this incident happened like a year ago, so criticism is valid.
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Re: '22 RG Day 9 OoP & Discussion

#71

Post by dmforever »

I'm curious. If he had yelled the n word at himself, would that also not be considered a slur?

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Re: '22 RG Day 9 OoP & Discussion

#72

Post by ponchi101 »

As my point was about cultural differences, allow me to set forth some examples of how our cultures in L. America work it out.
We have, of course, a 1 to 1 translation of the much more offending "F word" in Spanish. Let's call it "M word". It is unambiguous, as it means nothing more than an insult. For my generation, that was a fighting word. Somebody called you that, your had to respond with your fists.
So, how does the new generation use it? They have completely defused it. M-word has become the term of endearment of choice by all young people, to the point that I have been called M-word by the sons of a my friend N (they are around their late 20's), and even my 36 yo niece has, by mistake, called me that. It is how they greet themselves. It is so much of a change that even the women call themselves that, just changing the O ending for an A ending. The word carries no offensive meaning anymore, and this has spread, as far as I know, to Mexico, Venezuela, Colombia, Argentina and Chile, at the very least.
We don't have an "N-word", as that word, in English, is simply a deformation for our Spanish word for Black. We simply use our standard word for black. Is it an insult, per se? No, to the point that I have three friends whose nicknames are "El N..." or "La N...". Which would be hard to understand by foreigners as none of them are of dark skin. L, an Argentinean friend, is called "La N..." because she has two sisters and they are blonde, while she is a brunette. All of them are as white as snow, making the nickname "funny" (I did have to ask her why she was called that).
We have racism, homophobia and xenophobia in L. America. I am not claiming we are this paradise of equality, everybody holding hands in harmony. But we do not pay that much attention to the words without looking at the context. You can use M-word as an insult, but it has to be made very, very clear that you are purposely insulting the person. Calling somebody "El N..." here has to be accompanied by something else for it to be considered an insult. We are not considering the word without considering the entire idea behind it.
An embarrassing moment for me when I went to study in the USA was when I was confused about the N-word. Having been before to America, I knew about it, but I truly did not understand the nuances of it. I was 17 (at the time) and I was unable to understand that the fact that I could watch Richard Pryor and hear him say it over and over did not grant me the same freedom. To this day, many people outside the USA wonder how that is possible, but that is your cultural frame. It takes a proper explanation (which I got from a dear friend, after truly embarrassing myself and having to leave a party) before you understand all the scope and details of it. Changing subjects to bring a little perspective, if you go to Georgia's STONE MOUNTAIN, you will get a whole different idea of what that place really means if you go with a white guide or an African-American. We here (at TAT2.0) understand what the real history of the place is (it is not the white one), but you need to understand America first, before understanding STONE MOUNTAIN.
So, as you are asking a real question: down HERE, if you call yourself the N-word, the people in the stands (or wherever you are) will not be insulted themselves, and would find it weird that (using Rune as part of the example) a white person would call himself that. Will we understand that it is an insult? Sure, but it is not aimed at us. I would not be insulted by a word not aimed at me, or a third person. If Rune were to aim it at such third person, we would need to check the context, but we would be upset about the bullying, not the word. It is the reason Medvedev's "Small cat", in which he DID NOT use a slur, was a low point to me, because he was bullying the chair umpire, who could not reply in kind. It was cowardly (to me).
I guess we are truly different in that aspect; you are American, I am Venezuelan. You will find almost all uses of such words to be a slur; I will find it offensive on far fewer.
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Re: '22 RG Day 9 OoP & Discussion

#73

Post by nelslus »

WELL, as the STFU person here (which, as I have friends from all over the world, so "STFU" is most definitely not an American concept)- first, please do not put any censorship concept with what I have written. Best believe that I have learned that, as a white male who was raised very much to be a heterosexual white male, I plenty of times have had to learn when I need to STFU up and listen. Example: I was ignorant (and still can be ignorant) about the trans community, and I still have plenty to learn about such issues as gender fluidity. So, I've read, listened, watched media, met folks, made friends, etc.

For me, STFU means, whenever anyone communicates, especially someone who is outside of my "group"- my first re-learned instinct means that I first need to listen. White males have been trained about how important we and our opinions are. We are privileged.

I do have Republican friends- and, LOL, to use the stereotypical comment that gays have been subjected to, one of my very best and long-term friends is Republican. Because we listen to each other, we're respectful, call each other out as needed- she's never homophobic or racist, etc. We have plenty of commonalities and love each other, and focus on all of that. This can be done.

"TAT2.0 is NOT a safe space" is very telling to me and speaks volumes. While focusing on why conservatives have left, perhaps also consider why women, people of color, LGBTQ, etc. folks have also left. The world is exhausting enough as is. Why choose to frequently participate in a site if you feel that you and your views get invalidated?

Hey, expand this STFU for the sake of conservatives, too, as, IMO, and fully functioning group should be a safe space for all. What does make me nuts is, this site has a golden opportunity to start fresh each time a Pool is used.
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Re: '22 RG Day 9 OoP & Discussion

#74

Post by Deuce »

JTContinental wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:53 pm
Deuce wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 3:49 am It's always interesting that those who claim to be the most 'non-judgemental' and 'tolerant' are often the most judgemental and intolerant.
It's an equation which seems to never fail.

"CONDEMNATION IS WRONG! STEREOTYPING IS OFFENSIVE!", they loudly say with their words... and then they add, in 'code' "except for the people who I want to condemn and stereotype - then condemnation and stereotyping is good!"
And once they decide that someone is 'bad', they NEVER let up. It matters not if the 'bad' person matures as he/she ages... it matters not if evidence is introduced to clarify things and show that things are not as they were originally perceived to be in the rush to judgement... no way - that person is condemned(!) as being 'bad' for life by these 'non-judgemental' and 'tolerant' people!

Suffice to say that the incredible degree of irony and hypocrisy is not lost on me.

.
None of this is happening in this discussion.
^ I disagree.
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Re: '22 RG Day 9 OoP & Discussion

#75

Post by JTContinental »

Unsurprising
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