'22 RG Day 12 OoP & Discussion

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Re: '22 RG Day 12 OoP & Discussion

#31

Post by ponchi101 »

Well, good win for Coco. And she has a shot at the final.
Also, Iga/Trevisan could have end up being a Graf/Zvereva final. Still, great tournament for Trevisan.
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Re: '22 RG Day 12 OoP & Discussion

#32

Post by JazzNU »

meganfernandez wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 3:59 pm
Suliso wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 3:44 pm
No way we're assuming that about Alcaraz. 10 Slams is like 6th greatest player of all time.
Some informed people and experts are, absolutely. Even if we dial back the exaggeration, same point holds. No one is saying "not so fast" on Alcaraz. They have seen enough. Why not from Iga? Not everyone feels this way, of course, but it's a worthy examination. Part of the expectation for Alcaraz is the standard that the Big 3 just set - winning 10 seems normal now. But that's just part of it.

Some experts picked him to win it after last year's US Open! It's a common thing to accelerate and anticipate greatness of men, but not of women.

I'm curious, what experts have you been hearing say that? I've seen a ton of excitement of course, but I've mostly seen it as, there's finally something to look forward to where men's tennis can now comfortably move away from the Big 3. I haven't heard a thing about him entering into upper echelon of the greatest to ever play list with 10 slams.
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Re: '22 RG Day 12 OoP & Discussion

#33

Post by Suliso »

On the other hand are any of Djokovic's shots innovative? I'd say no, but hardly any weaknesses.
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Re: '22 RG Day 12 OoP & Discussion

#34

Post by martini4me »

meganfernandez wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 3:59 pm
Suliso wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 3:44 pm
meganfernandez wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 3:38 pm

Wa aren't saying Alcaraz is the great right now, and his style isn't innovative. And he has accomplished less than she has. But we are assuming he'll keep it up and win 10 Slams. Why don't we give the same benefit of the doubt to Iga?
No way we're assuming that about Alcaraz. 10 Slams is like 6th greatest player of all time.
Some informed people and experts are, absolutely. Even if we dial back the exaggeration, same point holds. No one is saying "not so fast" on Alcaraz. They have seen enough. Why not from Iga? Not everyone feels this way, of course, but it's a worthy examination. Part of the expectation for Alcaraz is the standard that the Big 3 just set - winning 10 seems normal now. But that's just part of it.

Some experts picked him to win it after last year's US Open! It's a common thing to accelerate and anticipate greatness of men, but not of women.
One thing you're not factoring in is that Alcaraz is three years younger than Swiatek. And, given that, in general, women rise up at a younger age than men, he's four to six years farther from hitting his "peak" than Swiatek.
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Re: '22 RG Day 12 OoP & Discussion

#35

Post by ponchi101 »

Suliso wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 4:18 pm On the other hand are any of Djokovic's shots innovative? I'd say no, but hardly any weaknesses.
His BH is exceptional. His capacity to bunt the ball with power is almost unique, plus his capacity to hit is with pace when he is fully stretched is also very much only his.
Plus, what you say. No weaknesses.
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Re: '22 RG Day 12 OoP & Discussion

#36

Post by martini4me »

martini4me wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 4:21 pm One thing you're not factoring in is that Alcaraz is three years younger than Swiatek. And, given that, in general, women rise up at a younger age than men, he's four to six years farther from hitting his "peak" than Swiatek.
Oops, it's only two years (I thought I had read that she just turned 22, which should have struck me as wrong, as she was a teenager when she previously won the French). But just as with prospects in other sports, two years makes a big difference in projections (not that anything is sure to work out).
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Re: '22 RG Day 12 OoP & Discussion

#37

Post by Suliso »

There were optimistic projections about Tsitsipas and Zverev too.
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Re: '22 RG Day 12 OoP & Discussion

#38

Post by meganfernandez »

martini4me wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 4:21 pm
meganfernandez wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 3:59 pm
Suliso wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 3:44 pm

No way we're assuming that about Alcaraz. 10 Slams is like 6th greatest player of all time.
Some informed people and experts are, absolutely. Even if we dial back the exaggeration, same point holds. No one is saying "not so fast" on Alcaraz. They have seen enough. Why not from Iga? Not everyone feels this way, of course, but it's a worthy examination. Part of the expectation for Alcaraz is the standard that the Big 3 just set - winning 10 seems normal now. But that's just part of it.

Some experts picked him to win it after last year's US Open! It's a common thing to accelerate and anticipate greatness of men, but not of women.
One thing you're not factoring in is that Alcaraz is three years younger than Swiatek. And, given that, in general, women rise up at a younger age than men, he's four to six years farther from hitting his "peak" than Swiatek.
He is two years younger. He just turned 19 and she just turned 21. (Sorry, didn't see your comment on this until I posted mine.) I did think they were the same age or a year apart. But I'd still categorize both of them as "pretty young" and more similar than different in terms of stage of development. I don't think that explains the disparity in expectations based on current performance. The one thing I didn't acknowledge is that Alcaraz beat Nadal and Djokovic on clay, which upped his stock significantly. Unfortunately for Swiatek, there isn't an equivalent challenge on the WTA right now.
Last edited by meganfernandez on Thu Jun 02, 2022 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: '22 RG Day 12 OoP & Discussion

#39

Post by meganfernandez »

ponchi101 wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 4:27 pm
Suliso wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 4:18 pm On the other hand are any of Djokovic's shots innovative? I'd say no, but hardly any weaknesses.
His BH is exceptional. His capacity to bunt the ball with power is almost unique, plus his capacity to hit is with pace when he is fully stretched is also very much only his.
Plus, what you say. No weaknesses.
His return is pretty world-class. A lot of intangibles, too. A high-level player pointed out to me Djokovic's ability to adapt to any playing conditions and opponents.
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Re: '22 RG Day 12 OoP & Discussion

#40

Post by JazzNU »

Djokovic's movement is innovative, the stretches he gets to reach the ball that are a bit different than being fast or quick. Not sure if it was a thing said much on international broadcasts, but he was often referred to as Gumby like on US broadcasts for many, many years.
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Re: '22 RG Day 12 OoP & Discussion

#41

Post by patrick »

JazzNU wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 3:42 pm
ponchi101 wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 3:21 pm Trevisan is a very good example of "selective grunting". She does not do it all the time, and only on standard strokes.
She just played one point from side to side, and barely a noise, because she was busy getting to the ball.
Coco did talk to the chair about it.
The chair should've told Coco to get over it (and I say this as someone who wants Coco to win). A Grand Slam semifinal is NOT the time to talk to a player about their grunting, you're trying to affect their play by bringing it up at that point. Davenport was not at all pleased with the timing in the tournament and recalled a time when the same thing happened with Seles and how much it affected her game in the final with her suddenly trying not do it.

I think if Trevisan is named Sharapova, the chair says nothing but to tell Coco, there's nothing she can do.

If something can be done about the grunting in general, I'm all for getting rid of it. I've never been a fan. But mid-tournament isn't the time when that's part of the game and routine that got you there and in particular, not at the tail end of a Grand Slam. I can't recall the time this was brought up to Sharapova, Sabalenka, or Azarenka this late in a tournament, let alone a Major.
Why not? Trevisan's opponents should have brought this up in prior rounds.
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Re: '22 RG Day 12 OoP & Discussion

#42

Post by JazzNU »

patrick wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 5:55 pm
Why not? Trevisan's opponents should have brought this up in prior rounds.
Because it's unfair to set a new standard in the semifinals of a tournament. Again, please show me the time they did this to Sharapova or Azarenka in one of their GS semifinal matches.
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Re: '22 RG Day 12 OoP & Discussion

#43

Post by ponchi101 »

The chair, and the tour should have brought this up before.
Like, around 1991, when Seles came into the tour ;)
By now, that horse has left the county, and is neighing far, far away.
(I am joking ;) )
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Re: '22 RG Day 12 OoP & Discussion

#44

Post by JazzNU »

ponchi101 wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 6:13 pm The chair, and the tour should have brought this up before.
Like, around 1991, when Seles came into the tour ;)
By now, that horse has left the county, and is neighing far, far away.
(I am joking ;) )
There was a point a number of years ago when Sharapova was established and I want to say Azaranka was rising, that they talked about addressing it in juniors. I don't remember what came of that. Maybe not as much as they hoped, but it also may have yielded some results since we do seem to have less than we were averaging 10 years ago. There was a highly ranked junior at the time who reportedly put both Sharapova and Azarenka's grunts to shame that was part of the conversation of trying to address the problem. She didn't have the pro career people thought she would, so it didn't push the convo forward the way they thought it would.

I couldn't remember a first name, but Google helped me out. The junior I was referencing was Michelle Larcher de Brito.
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Re: '22 RG Day 12 OoP & Discussion

#45

Post by ponchi101 »

Larcher de Brito was a truck full of hogs being taken to the slaughterhouse. Her shrieks were insane.
The problem, the way I saw it, was that after every match the opponents would be asked if they were distracted or affected by the screams (Sharapova and Azarenka) and they would say "No, I was focused on my game", so the circuit really could not come to the guilty parts and say "you have to cut it out, it is bothering your opponents". They had claimed that it had not.
I went by Roddick's observation. If he could serve 140 MPH serves in perfect silence, grunting after every point was not needed.
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