Tennis Related - Off Court Serious Issues

[meganfernandez]

The court didn't rule against him. It was one judge. That was the way I read that news (somewhere in here).
And yes, if he is found guilty, let the law be applied in full force.
The sole reason why he is going this way must be that he truly feels he is not guilty. Otherwise, the calculations are as you say: paying the fine would have been much easier.

Not only that the truly believes he is innocent, but that he can prove it. Big difference.

[mick1303]

The court didn't rule against him. It was one judge. That was the way I read that news (somewhere in here).
And yes, if he is found guilty, let the law be applied in full force.
The sole reason why he is going this way must be that he truly feels he is not guilty. Otherwise, the calculations are as you say: paying the fine would have been much easier.

Not only that the truly believes he is innocent, but that he can prove it. Big difference.

This sounds very backwards. Since when the person has a burden to prove his innocence? The general knowledge always was that it is the burden of prosecution to prove the quilt. When did this change?

[ti-amie]

I found this re the German penal code:

Neither the German Penal Code, nor the German Code of Criminal Procedure contain a clear articulation of a presumption of innocence or of a presumption of guilt. An arrest and certain other pre-trial remedies are allowed when someone is "seriously suspected" of a crime, and a judge may dismiss charged if they are without sufficient legal basis on their face.

As explained here:

If there are indications of a crime, the district attorney or the police department must initiate an official investigation. If the matter comes to a trial, it is the court's duty to pursue further official investigations. The court is obliged to look for evidence, whether or not defence counsel or the district attorney ask that evidence is heard. . . .

In criminal proceedings, all evidence must be presented during the trial. Only the results of the main (oral) hearing may serve as a basis for the sentence (sections 261 and 264, Code of Criminal Procedure). Written evidence, such as documents, must be read out and witnesses must be interrogated in the presence of the court and the public. . . .

Juries are not used in criminal proceedings. Minor cases are tried by one career judge, and other matters are tried by a court consisting of one career judge and two lay judges (section 29, Court Constitution Act). In certain very serious matters (for example, cases involving the death of the victim), the court consists of three career judges and two lay judges (section 74, Court Constitution Act), Lay judges in criminal proceedings are meant to ensure the approval of a criminal verdict by the public. . . .

In civil law cases, the burden of proof generally lies with the party asserting the claim. They must prove their case beyond reasonable doubt.

The burden of proof can be shifted, for example in claims for damages due to breach of contractual obligations. The defendant's responsibility for the contractual breach is presumed by the law, and the defendant bears the burden of proving otherwise (section 280 subsection 1 second sentence, German Code of Civil Law (Bürgerliches Gesetzbuch)).

As there are no disclosure-like proceedings, the party with the burden of proof may need to demonstrate a fact that they have had no chance to obtain knowledge of, while the other party can present this information easily (for example, information regarding the opposing party's assets or tax burden). In this case, the burden of proof does not shift, but the other party has a duty to provide sufficient information for the first party to substantiate their submission. This is known as the "secondary burden of proof". . . .

As criminal proceedings in Germany are not adversarial, but apply the principle of official investigation (see Question 18), it is the court and the prosecutor that have to provide evidence both against and in favour of the accused.

(...)

In what follows, I will not even begin to discuss the various meanings that the presumption of innocence has acquired in different legal systems. I will rather concentrate on the German system and will try to demonstrate the (useful but) limited reach of the presumption of innocence in the German context.

In a legal system such as the German system that is solidly built on codes and statutes, one would expect that a principle as important as the presumption of innocence is enshrined in the Constitution, or at least in one of the first paragraphs of the Code of Criminal Procedure. But the presumption of innocence has not been given a prominent place in the cathedral of German law; in fact, the presumption does not appear anywhere in indigenous German legislation. It has become part of German statutory law only by the wholesale transformation, in 1952, of the European Convention on Human Rights into domestic German law.2

In spite of that less than spectacular genealogy, the presumption of innocence enjoys as high a status in German legal discourse as in any other legal system. In a 1987 decision, the Federal Constitutional Court, Germany’s highest judicial authority, declared that ‘‘the presumption of innocence is a special feature of the principle of Rechtsstaat (a state built on the rule of law) and thus has the rank of a constitutional norm.’’3 The Constitutional Court linked the presumption of innocence to other high-ranking Constitutional concepts, such as the principle of culpability as a requirement for punishment, and human dignity, which is the supreme value protected by Article 1 of the German Constitution.4

https://law.stackexchange.com/questions ... in-germany

TL;dr

[ponchi101]

The court didn't rule against him. It was one judge. That was the way I read that news (somewhere in here).
And yes, if he is found guilty, let the law be applied in full force.
The sole reason why he is going this way must be that he truly feels he is not guilty. Otherwise, the calculations are as you say: paying the fine would have been much easier.

Not only that the truly believes he is innocent, but that he can prove it. Big difference.

This sounds very backwards. Since when the person has a burden to prove his innocence? The general knowledge always was that it is the burden of prosecution to prove the quilt. When did this change?

Since the court of public opinion began being the new societal norm, and people are judged a priori.
Remember how many were sure that Kyrgios was going to be found guilty. And then... we know.

[skatingfan]

Since the court of public opinion began being the new societal norm, and people are judged a priori.
Remember how many were sure that Kyrgios was going to be found guilty. And then... we know.

Just because someone is guilty doesn't mean they will be found guilty - justice is elusive.

[ponchi101]

Reminds me of a post at the entrance of Tuol Sleng, the prison where the Khmer Rouge "processed" its detainees (before sending them to a killing field).
"It is better to kill ten innocent than let one guilty go free".

Yes. Some guilty people go free. O.J. did. But Zverev has been judged guilty before the trial even started. And it is not as if Germany's justice system is suspect. It is not Venezuela (or Russia).

[meganfernandez]

The court didn't rule against him. It was one judge. That was the way I read that news (somewhere in here).
And yes, if he is found guilty, let the law be applied in full force.
The sole reason why he is going this way must be that he truly feels he is not guilty. Otherwise, the calculations are as you say: paying the fine would have been much easier.

Not only that the truly believes he is innocent, but that he can prove it. Big difference.

This sounds very backwards. Since when the person has a burden to prove his innocence? The general knowledge always was that it is the burden of prosecution to prove the quilt. When did this change?

I didn't say he has the burden of proving his innocence. The burden is on the prosecuction in a trial. But everyone presumed innocent still has to mount a defense against the prosecution, and one way to do that is proactively proving your innocence, not just relying on the prosecution to fall short of proving it or be unconvincing to a jury. It sounds like Zverev thinks his evidence proves he didn't do what he is accused of doing.

[meganfernandez]

Since the court of public opinion began being the new societal norm, and people are judged a priori.
Remember how many were sure that Kyrgios was going to be found guilty. And then... we know.

Just because someone is guilty doesn't mean they will be found guilty - justice is elusive.

Yes because as I've always said when we talk about journalism, full truth is elusive. It follows, then, that justice is elusive.

[ti-amie]

I came across this discussion earlier today on Tennis Xitter. Because it goes into more that a 40m match at a Grand Slam (Is/was Potapova injured?) I posted the comments here. I don't think that there should be double bagels and extremely short matches at a Slam.

I also think that Iga/Naomi could've been a bloodbath as well. You never know with tennis. If the WTA did a better job at promoting its players I won't say the stadium would've been full but attendance would've been better. How many know that Naomi has won four slams besides tennis nerds?

I was watching the matches on Lenglen and went away for a few minutes during a woman's match (Danilovic vs Vondrousova) and came back to see their match was over. The camera panned to the courtside seats which were now almost full and my first reaction was "Oh there must be a men's match up next. It was Dimitrov vs Hurkacz.

Hannah Wilks
@newballsplease
The French Open really does see its women's event as at best a mildly diverting support act and at worst a necessary evil to be hurried through as fast as possible, doesn't it.

I mean, it's not new, but also, for the record, absolutely (expletive) you.

Joanne
@Joeyo1990

Iga/ Osaka would have been an amazing night match

nik fawcett
@nik_f79
· Even when it’s not the support act (Swiatek v Osaka) the stadium was half full for the two players that hold the most GS titles in the draw. Despite being sold out. Despite only one other match being played at the same time. Is this a cultural thing, or is it a WTA thing?

Jack
@Ajackb_
·
8h
"a necessary devil (sic) to be hurried through" it's not the French Open dictating the length of games, it's the sheer lack of quality outside the top 10 in the WTA that causes that

Nick Blake
@nblake22
·
1m
I don’t think you can blame the FO. There’s a big gap between the top 5 or 6 women & the rest of the field. Yes, sometimes the top players lose early on but usually they’ll be there at the end. Without depth in the game it’s inevitable that matches will get hurried through.

Kirit Mookerjee
@Karaokemookie
·
1h
100% right…it’s more than the night session…yesterday they skipped interview and rushed a women’s winner off Lenglen while she was still signing items for fans.

george
@fuzzball222
·
8h
Why would I want to watch an inferior product. The men are much better athletes, they hit the ball much harder. I want to see the top level.

JD
@Hogierolls
·
6h
Then separate the men's and women's tournaments at different parts of the year.

Oh yea. The women needs the men's draw to make the money

[ti-amie]

[ponchi101]

That is a swell idea. Let a NON POLITICAL organization sanction people for their political views.
What could go wrong?

[Owendonovan]

Not many Russian/Belarussians are allowed to compete in the upcoming Olympics, because of Russia's warmongering and doping. Russian athletics clubs are closely aligned with or sponsored by the military, so separating them is difficult.

[meganfernandez]

Not many Russian/Belarussians are allowed to compete in the upcoming Olympics, because of Russia's warmongering and doping. Russian athletics clubs are closely aligned with or sponsored by the military, so separating them is difficult.

Interesting... The main effect on tennis is Sabalenka's absence. Maybe Rublev. Not really Medvedev since he isn't his best on clay. He'll have a nice long vacation and get some extra prep on hard court. Wonder if that will give him an edge at the US Open, being rested.

[3mlm]

Not many Russian/Belarussians are allowed to compete in the upcoming Olympics, because of Russia's warmongering and doping. Russian athletics clubs are closely aligned with or sponsored by the military, so separating them is difficult.

Interesting... The main effect on tennis is Sabalenka's absence. Maybe Rublev. Not really Medvedev since he isn't his best on clay. He'll have a nice long vacation and get some extra prep on hard court. Wonder if that will give him an edge at the US Open, being rested.

The Russian doping sanction is no longer in effect for Russia but a warmongering ban is in effect for Russian/Belarusian athletes associated with state or military organizations, usually in team sports (all Russian/Belarusian team sports are banned). It is likely that most Russian/Belarusian tennis players who otherwise qualify will be allowed to play (although Dayana Yastremska might object).

From the ITF:

The International Tennis Federation (ITF) has published the following statement regarding the Paris 2024 Olympic Tennis Event and Paralympic Tennis Event:

“The International Olympic Committee and International Paralympic Committee will allow qualified and eligible athletes with Russian and Belarusian passports to compete in the Paris 2024 Olympic Games as Individual Neutral Athletes (“AIN”) and Paralympic Games as Neutral Paralympic Athletes (“NPA”). The ITF confirms that tennis players from these nations will be allowed to enter the Olympic and Paralympic tennis competitions in an individual and neutral capacity if they comply with the IOC’s AIN and the IPC’s NPA principles. Neutral athletes will need to meet the selection and eligibility requirements as set out in the applicable ITF Regulations.

“The ITF decision aligns with the majority of International Federations (IFs) regarding individual competition and athletes participating in the Paris 2024 Games this summer. The ITF’s position is also in accordance with tennis’ existing international policy which was adopted in March 2022.

“As part of the Qualification System for the Olympic Tennis Event, provisions in the ITF regulations allow nations to apply to the ITF Olympic Committee for an exemption from the minimum Davis Cup and Billie Jean King Cup participation requirements when these have not been met by individual players. As the Russian and Belarusian national tennis federations are currently suspended from ITF membership, there will be a revised process for these two nations. For Individual Neutral Athletes (AIN) with a Russian passport, the ITF will liaise with the IOC. For Individual Neutral Athletes (AIN) with a Belarusian passport, the ITF will liaise with the Belarus Olympic Committee (BOC).

“As per the IOC’s Principles of Participation for Individual Neutral Athletes (AIN), in the case of athletes with Russian and Belarusian passports, the ITF will propose a final list to the IOC, together with the criteria and reasoning used to confirm eligibility. The IOC AIN Eligibility Review Panel will review these lists for a final decision on entry.

“The process for the Paralympic Wheelchair Tennis Event will be confirmed in due course.”

[Oploskoffie]

And then, just like that, the Zverev case concludes with an out of court settlement:

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/554810 ... ettlement/

Or

https://www.bbc.com/sport/tennis/articles/cw44pggrl7zo