Tennis Related - Off Court Serious Issues
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ponchi101
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Re: Tennis Related - Off Court Serious Issues
Actually, good. It means that she is doing well in the other aspects of her life.
I really do not want this to turn into an "abuse story". Don't want any more of those in the WTA.
I really do not want this to turn into an "abuse story". Don't want any more of those in the WTA.
Ego figere omnia et scio supellectilem
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Re: Tennis Related - Off Court Serious Issues
Not saying it will have any impact on Indian Wells given his wealth, but losing 3/4 of a B has to sting...
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ponchi101
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Re: Tennis Related - Off Court Serious Issues
Ok. But, how do you substitute X? There is no other platform that truly replaces it.
So if you dump the stock, you make your losses clear. If you stick around, maybe it bounces back.
So if you dump the stock, you make your losses clear. If you stick around, maybe it bounces back.
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ti-amie
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Re: Tennis Related - Off Court Serious Issues
I can't screen shot. Maybe someone who can can make one of the Wertheim tweet...
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ti-amie
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Re: Tennis Related - Off Court Serious Issues
TF
@tennisfan2222
It’s reasonable to question the exceptionally fast & lenient verdict. And even if JS is innocent, how come his team which includes a seasoned pharmacist & physio from Italy weren’t deemed negligent in their handling of a known steroid already implicated in 38 Italian sports cases
@tennisfan2222
It’s reasonable to question the exceptionally fast & lenient verdict. And even if JS is innocent, how come his team which includes a seasoned pharmacist & physio from Italy weren’t deemed negligent in their handling of a known steroid already implicated in 38 Italian sports cases
The packaging is also clearly labeled to indicate it causes doping violations. It's posted somewhere upthread.d0r
@d0r111_
Quel farmaco in Italia e’ detto da “banco”, venduto in farmacia senza ricetta medica
Translated from Italian by
In Italy, this drug is called “over the counter”, sold in pharmacies without a medical prescription.
TF
@tennisfan2222
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1h
Yes, I read that. Considering it’s sold over the counter, all the more reason for them to have been well aware of it. Especially when it has cropped up in numerous accidental doping violations in the country.
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ti-amie
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Re: Tennis Related - Off Court Serious Issues
Reposting this to show the packaging the substance comes in.ti-amie wrote: ↑Tue Aug 20, 2024 9:03 pm Italy’s Clostebol doping crisis across tennis, football and the Olympics
An anabolic steroid once given to East and West German athletes has resurfaced in elite Italian sport. Honest Sport investigates whether the drug is now being used similarly to testosterone creams.
EDMUND WILLISON
MAY 22, 2024
A doping warning sign printed on the box of Trofodermin cream containing the anabolic steroid clostebol.
In the months leading up to the 1987 World Athletics Championships, Birgit Dressel had taken a concoction of drugs and medications in order to train harder, and harder, as she sought to bring heptathlon gold home to West Germany. Tragically, Dressel never made it to the Championships nor the Olympics in Seoul the following season. Dressel died from organ failure in April that year.
Dressel passed away in the intensive care unit of Mainz hospital after suffering from paraplegic shock. She had taken copious amounts of narcotics, under the directions of her doctors, to treat painful muscle hardening caused by her anabolic steroid use. Dressel considered anabolic steroids to be harmless which had contributed to her liberal use of the drug class.
“They are all harmless drugs. All athletes take them. It's really nothing special”, said Dressel before her death.
An autopsy revealed traces of 101 different medications in Dressel’s body. At the time, the West German athlete was sadly in the hands of doctors who were so far down the rabbit hole of sports performance that they had lost sight of the line between sports medicine and healthcare. Dressel had been provided steroids by a doctor seen as part-mad, part-genius - Dr. Armin Klümper.
Klümper had also reportedly provided steroids to the Bundesliga football teams Vfb Stuttgart and SC Freiburg in the seventies and eighties. When documents were reviewed in 2015 detailing the substances Klümper had allegedly provided to both clubs, the German national team manager Joachim Löw, who played for both teams at the time, had to answer whether he had visited the doctor’s clinic.
"Of course, I was there a time or two. At 18 or 19, of course, I wouldn't have dared to ask and tell him that I might want to have what he gave me tested in the laboratory. My trust in this profession of medicine was immense," said Löw.
Löw was asked about his relationship with Klümper a year after he led Germany to their fourth World Cup triumph, but the questions concerned events some thirty-five years earlier, although before Klümper had passed away. But it is a substance that Klümper reportedly provided to both Dressel and VfB Stuttgart that has, unlike Klümper, come back from the dead – the anabolic steroid clostebol.
Over the past decade the drug has resurfaced in Italian football and across Italy’s wider sporting landscape. Between 2019 and 2023, 38 Italian athletes have tested positive for clostebol despite the fact it is scarcely produced in oral or injectable form by pharmaceutical companies, as it was during the Dr. Klümper era.
Serie A footballers, tennis players and Olympic athletes in Italy have all had to explain how the steroid accidently found its way into their bodies, and in most cases they have been deemed to have done so convincingly. But an investigation by Honest Sport has now found that cases involving the drug are appearing in small athlete networks. There are also experts in anti-doping who are concerned that clostebol is now being used in cream form by Italian athletes in search of the type of illegal edge once sought by the late Birgit Dressel.
Clostebol arrives in elite Italian sport
“Wake up tomorrow morning…frozen…and to transport you mahogany boxes are needed”.
These were the death threats directed at NADO Italia from Fabio Lucioni’s Instagram account soon after the anti-doping agency sentenced the player to a one-year doping suspension in 2018. Over the course of the previous two seasons, Lucioni had captained his club, Benevento Calcio, to back-to-back promotions from Serie C to Serie A – the most successful period in Benevento’s history.
Unfortunately for Lucioni, his talismanic impact on Benevento would not be felt in Italy’s top-flight division. Lucioni tested positive for clostebol after only the third match of the newly promoted side’s Serie A season. The club captain’s season was over before he knew it.
Even though clostebol is an anabolic steroid that builds muscle mass and enhances performance, an Italian tribunal was lenient with Lucioni and accepted that he had not knowingly cheated. However, the club’s doctor, Walter Giorgione, was banned for four years because he had administered Giorgione a drug from his own personal medical box, rather than the club’s. Giorgione confessed that he had used a spray on Lucioni containing clostebol to help heal the footballer’s cut more quickly.
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The Lucioni case made national news, but it did not serve as a cautionary tale to Italy’s elite athletes. The number of clostebol cases in Italian sport ranges far and wide across the country. Italian athletes have tested positive for the drug before the Olympics, four tennis players have been caught for clostebol and two basketballer players on the same team were careless enough to both ingest the anabolic steroid.
Four years after the Lucioni case, two Italian junior tennis players, just seventeen years old at the time, tested positive for clostebol within three months of each other. One of the minors, Matilde Paoletti, who played at the Junior French Open, was training at the Olympic training centre in Formia in 2021, the year she was caught. The other minor, Mariano Tammaro, was a top ranked world junior, and in 2021 was training under the national team coach.
Any concerns that these players were the victim of child doping were officially misplaced. Paoletti tested positive after petting her pet chihuahua who had been administered clostebol spray by her mother to heal a wound. While in the case of Mariano Tammaro, his father applied a spray to a wound on his son’s knee.
But away from tennis, the spray of clostebol cases has been felt further across Italian sport.
When the girlfriend of the Olimpia Milano basketballer, Riccardo Moraschini, sliced her finger while cooking, she used a clostebol spray to heal the cut. Like Lucioni’s doctor, Paoletti’s mother and Tammaro’s father, she was unaware that clostebol was prohibited for use in professional sport. Unfortunately, when she naturally came into contact with her boyfriend, clostebol unknowingly entered his system. Equally unfortunately for Olimpia Milano, Italy’s most successful basketball club, their power forward Christian Burns had tested positive for clostebol two years earlier.
And, in pre-games doping testing before the 2016 Rio Olympics, two qualified athletes both tested positive for clostebol, out-of-competition in the month of July. Both athletes, the volleyball player Orsi Toth and the sailor Roberto Caputo, missed the Rio Olympics for Italy.
Italy has quite clearly been in the midst of a clostebol crisis, of some form or another, for much of the past decade. A decade in which clostebol detection methods have become more sensitive.
According to the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA), half of the world’s clostebol cases come from Italy. A statistic partially explained by the fact that Italy is one of the only remaining countries in which clostebol is still sold.
When WADA banned the heart medication Meldonium in 2016, the drug at the centre of the Maria Sharapova affair, the hundreds of positive cases were largely concentrated in Russia. In order for an athlete to test positive for a drug, inadvertently or not, the drug has to be available in their geographical location. Therefore, doping cases involving specific drugs can be location specific.
Outside of Eastern Europe, Meldonium is not widely available. Therefore most of the cases involve Russians. Outside of Italy, clostebol is not widely available in Europe, therefore the majority of cases involve Italians.
It remains bewildering, however, that Italy’s athletes are missing the warning sign printed on clostebol creams and sprays in Italy, which clearly states that the product contains ‘doping’ substances.
Clostebol readily available in Italian pharmacies
Injectable Clostebol sold under the brand name Megagrisevit-Mono®.
During the time Dr. Armin Klümper was reportedly supplying clostebol to Bundesliga football clubs the drug was sold under the brand name Megagrisevit-Mono®. Megagrisevit was an injectable and at the time was marketed by the Italian pharmaceutical company Farmitalia.
The drug was initially developed in East Germany, before it was synthesised with other drugs and given to the state’s Olympic athletes, but since the collapse of the Berlin Wall the drug is scarcely available in Europe.
However, in Italy and Brazil, the countries faced with the most clostebol cases, the drug can be bought in pharmacies without a prescription. In Italy, it is most commonly sold in cream form as Trofodermin, and a tube can cost as little as twelve euros. Trofodermin is applied to the skin to treat abrasions, lesions, burns and infected wounds.
If an athlete handles the cream, even in applying it to another individual, then they can risk testing positive. This has been one of the common defences used in Clostebol cases. And in 2020, this defence was assessed in a controlled experiment by scientists at Rome’s anti-doping laboratory and published in the paper, ‘Detection of clostebol in sports: Accidental doping?’. Scientists were able to detect Clostebol in the urine of a subject who had applied Trofodermin cream to another individual.
But it is a sentence within that paper that perforates the argument that only the innocent have befallen to the clostebol curse. “According to Italian law, a visible sign indicating the presence of a substance included in the WADA list of prohibited substances must be present”, reads the paper.
Trofodermin cream, as mandated by law, is sold in a packaging emblazoned with a warning that the product contains a doping agent. This warning would seemingly make any argument of inadvertent use untenable. A warning so problematic that athletes’ lawyers have had to address the warning head-on during disciplinary hearings.
For example, in perhaps the most famous clostebol case, the Norwegian Olympic skier Theresa Yohaug claimed to have tested positive for the steroid after applying Trofodermin cream to treat her sunburn while training in Italy. Yohaug acknowledged she had seen the packaging, but an independent tribunal still accepted she had missed the red warning sign on the box. She was allowed to return for the Beijing Olympics in 2022 and win three gold medals. At those same Olympics the Spanish skater Laura Barquero tested positive for clostebol. To no surprise Barquero is based in Italy.
Clostebol creams, testosterone gels and passing drug tests
(...)
The former head of the Portuguese anti-doping agency, Luis Horta, has now told Honest Sport that he is concerned that sports doctors have begun to use Clostebol creams as they do testosterone gels.
“I think there are some doctors involved in doping strategies that are using this strategy to avoid detection or to have a low risk to be detected”.
(...)
“I suspect that they use creams. Because creams as clostebol, or testosterone by cream or by gel. The detection window it's very, very short. It's sometimes some hours, then it's a good way to dope. With a lower risk to be tested, positive,” Horta told Honest Sport.
Clostebol creams are less potent than testosterone gels, so the performance-enhancing effect is more debatable. However, athletes often inject a stronger anabolic steroid, and then ‘top themselves up’ with weaker creams as competition, and more drug testing, approaches.
“It's like with a bathtub. The shot fills the tub. The cream keeps replenishing it every day to top it off,” a sports medicine doctor once said about testosterone creams.
Horta, who has also worked in Brazilian anti-doping, says he has been involved in at least one doping case in which he had suspected the athlete had been using clostebol as a doping agent.
“In one case the athlete received the standard punishment because he couldn’t explain the case. In another case the athlete had a reduced sanction because he demonstrated that was negligent by applying a cream with clostebol on his dog without using gloves,” said Horta.
There are numerous cases to support Horta’s affirmations. In 2023, the Italian tennis player Stefano Battaglino was banned for four years after he failed to show that he had taken Clostebol inadvertently. And curiously before the 2010 Commonwealth Games, the British shot-putter Mark Edwards tested positive for both clostebol and testosterone. He was not able to prove a lack of intent.
When Honest Sport asked a leading scientist at a WADA-accredited laboratory whether they too suspected that clostebol creams were being abused, they wondered whether it was instead still being used in injection, rather than cream, form.
“My perception is that the use of clostebol cream (e.g. trofodermin), in common therapeutic amounts, is hardly performance-enhancing, but despite the limited availability of other formulations (of clostebol), the misuse by other routes (e.g. injection) cannot be excluded, and differentiating by analytical means between the ways the anabolic agent entered an athlete’s organism is difficult. Hence, disregarding clostebol (as a doping agent) is probably not an option.”
A Carabinieri police officer in Italy told Honest Sport that it is rumoured that clostebol creams may be being used to hide the presence of other more potent doping substances.
“I heard other rumours, i.e. that it can be used to mask another substance. That means to hide positives for other substances that must have been taken advertently, and it interferes with laboratory analysis. Even in this case only science can tell us if it is legends, or if it is reality,” said the source.
Whether by injection, or by gel, or whether used as a masking agent, there is obvious concern surrounding the number of ever-continuing clostebol cases in Italy, and it is the ever-presence of doping doctors in professional sport that raises that concern higher.
(...)
But as the Italian Carabinieri officer told Honest Sport, the sheer number of clostebol cases, at least in Italy, can no longer be considered an anomaly.
“Of course, except in cases of accidental doping, if the use of a substance spreads it’s not just a coincidence.”
It is now the decision of anti-doping authorities to determine how seriously they want to investigate Italy’s problem with a drug once central to the East German, and West German, doping programmes.
https://honestsport.substack.com/p/ital ... sis-across
This investigation was a long one, so any sharing of the article, with friends or colleagues, would be most welcomed! Thank you, Edmund.
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Re: Tennis Related - Off Court Serious Issues
Jon Wertheim
@jon_wertheim
The Friday before the tournament all top-100 American men met with the USTA chieftains to protest persistent cuts to player development $$…the tournament ends with two Americans in the finals, and two others in semis…#USOpen2024
@jon_wertheim
The Friday before the tournament all top-100 American men met with the USTA chieftains to protest persistent cuts to player development $$…the tournament ends with two Americans in the finals, and two others in semis…#USOpen2024
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Re: Tennis Related - Off Court Serious Issues
“Do not grow old, no matter how long you live. Never cease to stand like curious children before the Great Mystery into which we were born.” Albert Einstein
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ponchi101
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Re: Tennis Related - Off Court Serious Issues
This is not a sport for everybody.
I can't imagine younger generations, with attention spans measured in minutes, sitting through a Borg/McEnroe Wimbledon final, or God forbid, a Lendl/Wilander USO final (which was not thrilling).
We have to accept that.
I can't imagine younger generations, with attention spans measured in minutes, sitting through a Borg/McEnroe Wimbledon final, or God forbid, a Lendl/Wilander USO final (which was not thrilling).
We have to accept that.
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Re: Tennis Related - Off Court Serious Issues
yes, and a case could be made for shorter formats, where the match gets over in 60 to 90 minutes.. people do watch football matches after all.. 3 to 4 hours is a bit too much..
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Re: Tennis Related - Off Court Serious Issues
Sounds of Blackness
@its_Burgos_DAY
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And are you sure you’re not conflating “being a billionaire’s child makes it easier to be a professional tennis player” with “being a billionaire’s child makes it easy to be top 10 pro tennis player"?
Lily Savage
@DameLilySavage
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True, you still need to work very hard. Is there not a difference however if you watch the challenger level player who are surviving. If they had money for flights, best hotels to sleep in, equipment, coaches etc they would thrive too. Can only go so far for pure love of it?
Since I'm not on Xitter much now I'm not familiar with the people responding to Rennae. As you all know I thought that Navarro was simply a nepo baby playing tennis just because. I don't think that anymore because as Rennae says if you don't put in the work you're not going to get results. One of the reasons I don't hate on Fritz is because he has always put in the work, playing the fall clay court swing for example when most US players avoid the surface like the plague.HJ
@hjadams1
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Don’t think any reasonable person would disagree. We can still acknowledge that in the U.S. tennis is an extremely expensive sport to play/train at an elite level. Those with infinitely more access to resources will have infinitely higher chances of success/reaching the top.
I don't think this discussion is going away anytime soon.
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Re: Tennis Related - Off Court Serious Issues
We had a member (still do, but... not around) that spoke very openly about the advantages that Pegula had. Having not only the money when she was growing up but also having the entire Buffalo Bills training and medical staff at her disposal. She was completely sure that Pegula success stemmed, at least partially, from those advantages.
So people are open to such a discussion.
You can also bring up the case of Leo Borg. Needless to say, not only the kid has money (or, his dad does), he has the name to get a considerable number of wild cards offered. Despite that, he is mired in Challengers, and seems to have reached his peak as a player. So, money will carry you up to a point, but no further.
True story.
At the club I played, there was this kid who was a really good player. Good enough for the ATP? We will never know, because when he was 14 and was breaking three sets of strigs per afternoon, his dad got sacked from the company where he worked. And dad had to tell his son that he simply could no longer afford his tennis routine (3 sets of strings per training session, and a pair of shoes every two weeks). So, this kid had to abandon the sport.
If he had had the money, who knows.
And about Stubbs' "I will not hear it!". Who the (expletive) do you think you are to impose what people can and cannot talk about? You are passionate about NOT hearing about it? Maybe somebody else is passionate about talking about it. So, chill.
(Disclosure: I don't like Stubbs. I find her interviews on court to be as boring and snooze-inducing as can be).
So people are open to such a discussion.
You can also bring up the case of Leo Borg. Needless to say, not only the kid has money (or, his dad does), he has the name to get a considerable number of wild cards offered. Despite that, he is mired in Challengers, and seems to have reached his peak as a player. So, money will carry you up to a point, but no further.
True story.
At the club I played, there was this kid who was a really good player. Good enough for the ATP? We will never know, because when he was 14 and was breaking three sets of strigs per afternoon, his dad got sacked from the company where he worked. And dad had to tell his son that he simply could no longer afford his tennis routine (3 sets of strings per training session, and a pair of shoes every two weeks). So, this kid had to abandon the sport.
If he had had the money, who knows.
And about Stubbs' "I will not hear it!". Who the (expletive) do you think you are to impose what people can and cannot talk about? You are passionate about NOT hearing about it? Maybe somebody else is passionate about talking about it. So, chill.
(Disclosure: I don't like Stubbs. I find her interviews on court to be as boring and snooze-inducing as can be).
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Re: Tennis Related - Off Court Serious Issues
Here's the TL;dr
“Do not grow old, no matter how long you live. Never cease to stand like curious children before the Great Mystery into which we were born.” Albert Einstein
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Re: Tennis Related - Off Court Serious Issues
“Do not grow old, no matter how long you live. Never cease to stand like curious children before the Great Mystery into which we were born.” Albert Einstein
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Re: Tennis Related - Off Court Serious Issues
It has to be "concerning" that it moved to the big channel and the rating went down despite having an American in there.
With that preface, a few comments.
- last year's final was at 4pm. This was at 2. On the first Sunday of NFL season that's a relevant difference IMO.
- global numbers are not being considered there.
- the US open had more than enough fan attendance to show the event was a success. Celebrities were "more than normal" according to some reporting I read. Similarly this translated to the number of sponsors and activations associated.
- according to John Skipper, former ESPN CEO, "ratings don't matter." He trumpets this a lot on his podcast, often when talking about playoffs and how they don't look at individual games within a series - they buy so far in advance.
With that preface, a few comments.
- last year's final was at 4pm. This was at 2. On the first Sunday of NFL season that's a relevant difference IMO.
- global numbers are not being considered there.
- the US open had more than enough fan attendance to show the event was a success. Celebrities were "more than normal" according to some reporting I read. Similarly this translated to the number of sponsors and activations associated.
- according to John Skipper, former ESPN CEO, "ratings don't matter." He trumpets this a lot on his podcast, often when talking about playoffs and how they don't look at individual games within a series - they buy so far in advance.
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