Sports Random, Random

[JazzNU]

I'm fairly certain there's a player on tour now who is semi-out, but not out out and I'd definitely assume his country of origin is the issue with taking that fully public, make a statement step. I don't think that part is a small matter that can be easily dismissed. And I should say, more specifically than just the country of origin, also the overwhelming religion in these countries.

I think men's golf is a better comparison to tennis. I believe they have had someone come out, but I'm not sure how highly ranked a player that person is or where they are from.

NFL and NHL or whatever team sport, is quite a bit different. Unless I'm missing something where tennis players are concerned, their travel is always individual unless they are with their national team, not delegated by the tour, so the security and access to the players is largely more protected in the team environment. And that's also in the US.

Are there out players on the soccer and basketball teams in Brazil, Argentina, Serbia, Lithuania, Japan, etc.? I have no idea, but I'd think that's a better indicator than using a US sports league as a barometer.

[Deuce]

The center of the Venn diagram of people both (rightfully) objecting to this (loudly) and buying the swimsuit issue is likely a small sliver.

^ I disagree. I believe it's a much larger proportion than one would logically conclude.

As for pro athletes 'coming out' (especially males)... It seems to me that it would be more difficult to do so in a team sport than in an individual sport - because of fearing the reactions of your teammates, some of whom would no doubt fear it and object to it in some way... some would object to sharing a locker room with the person, etc. Plus the inevitable remarks from opposing players during games, etc.
Whereas in individual sports like tennis and golf, those things would not exist - or, at least not to anywhere near the degree they do within team sports.

Personally, I see no reason for anyone to 'come out', because one's sexual preference is entirely irrelevant to their job as an athlete - just as irrelevant as a person's skin colour, or hair colour, or favourite colour, favourite foods, etc. It's also none of the team's business, none of any associations' business, none of the fans' business, etc.
If you want to share personal details of your life with people you know well and trust, then fine - because you trust them, and their opinions/feedback thus possesses a value to you. Beyond that, however, is entirely unnecessary in my view.
I simply don't see any benefit in the current popular trend of making one's like so public, and telling anyone who'll listen about the personal details of your life. This is the unfortunate foundation of 'social media', of course. Any feedback - positive or negative - one receives from irrelevant people, people you possess no bond with, etc. has no value - so why seek it? I don't see that desperately seeking such validation from people who should be irrelevant to the subject is a healthy path to pursue. Validation of irrelevant people should not be necessary to establish a solid self-esteem and self-confidence.

[dmforever]

I would only say that an Eastern European, Latin American or African player would perhaps face serious consequences back home.
But that is tangential. Your point is valid.

Actually, I think your point is valid, as JazzNU said as well, so thanks to both of you. But even if you just focus on North American and West European players, that's still a pretty darn large pool to all be swimming the same stroke in.

Kevin

[Deuce]

Just re-posting my last couple of paragraphs from my above post - with an important correction which makes a significant difference...

Personally, I see no reason for anyone to 'come out', because one's sexual preference is entirely irrelevant to their job as an athlete - just as irrelevant as a person's skin colour, or hair colour, or favourite colour, favourite foods, etc. It's also none of the team's business, none of any associations' business, none of the fans' business, etc.
If you want to share personal details of your life with people you know well and trust, then fine - because you trust them, and their opinions/feedback thus possesses a value to you. Beyond that, however, is entirely unnecessary in my view.
I simply don't see any benefit in the current popular trend of making one's life (NOT 'like') so public, and telling anyone who'll listen about the personal details of your life. This is the unfortunate foundation of 'social media', of course. Any feedback - positive or negative - one receives from irrelevant people, people you possess no bond with, etc. has no value - so why seek it? I don't see that desperately seeking such validation from people who should be irrelevant to the subject is a healthy path to pursue. Validation of irrelevant people should not be necessary to establish a solid self-esteem and self-confidence.

[JazzNU]

Actually, I think your point is valid, as JazzNU said as well, so thanks to both of you. But even if you just focus on North American and West European players, that's still a pretty darn large pool to all be swimming the same stroke in.

Kevin

Are we comfortable grouping Spain and Italy with the rest of Western Europe in this context? I know they are both fine in terms of traveling, but have no idea it if would lead to any backlash or loss of endorsements in either. If we don't count them, the pool you're thinking of just shrunk. Though I'd think we could consider Australia as well.

In terms of US players, we have a group that largely come from conservative backgrounds. Even if I thought one of them was gay right now, am I positive they'd come out? It would truly depend on the player and the family. A US player could probably safely not lose their endorsements, but couldn't guarantee not losing their family given the pool of players we seem to get. Remember, by most people's estimation, we had a shotgun wedding in the mix in recent years, that is 1950s thinking there. And JMG didn't seem all that comfortable coming out even in retirement until just a few years ago and we can only guess if that was related to how many in this group he has coached.

I don't know of anyone particular to point to, but if we have any promising college tennis players going pro soon, that's where I'd look for the breakthrough. Someone who was out on campus and isn't going back in the closet once they turn pro.

[dmforever]

Actually, I think your point is valid, as JazzNU said as well, so thanks to both of you. But even if you just focus on North American and West European players, that's still a pretty darn large pool to all be swimming the same stroke in.

Kevin

Are we comfortable grouping Spain and Italy with the rest of Western Europe in this context? I know they are both fine in terms of traveling, but have no idea it if would lead to any backlash or loss of endorsements in either. If we don't count them, the pool you're thinking of just shrunk. Though I'd think we could consider Australia as well.

In terms of US players, we have a group that largely come from conservative backgrounds. Even if I thought one of them was gay right now, am I positive they'd come out? It would truly depend on the player and the family. A US player could probably safely not lose their endorsements, but couldn't guarantee not losing their family given the pool of players we seem to get. Remember, by most people's estimation, we had a shotgun wedding in the mix in recent years, that is 1950s thinking there. And JMG didn't seem all that comfortable coming out even in retirement until just a few years ago and we can only guess if that was related to how many in this group he has coached.

I don't know of anyone particular to point to, but if we have any promising college tennis players going pro soon, that's where I'd look for the breakthrough. Someone who was out on campus and isn't going back in the closet once they turn pro.

Perhaps counterintuitively, with regards to homophobia (and I'd say sexuality in general), Spain and Italy are quite far apart. Spain is much much more liberal. Same-sex marriage there is legal and has been since 2005, about a decade before it was in the US. In Italy it is still a long long way off. And attitudes in general are much more relaxed in Spain.


You make a good point about how conservative most American ATP players are. And I didn't even know about JMG coming out. How did I miss that? You also make a great point about college players. But I still have to return to my main point. I'm still surprised that it hasn't happened yet.

Thanks for your posts on the topic. I think I can infer from them that you understand how it important it is not to be in the closet, and that is much appreciated.

Kevin

[JazzNU]

You make a good point about how conservative most American ATP players are. And I didn't even know about JMG coming out. How did I miss that?

Kevin

Likely because it wasn't a thing. Like at all. I don't think he talks about it, don't think he ever made a statement. Just started including his boyfriend/partner in photos he posted on IG.

[dmforever]

You make a good point about how conservative most American ATP players are. And I didn't even know about JMG coming out. How did I miss that?

Kevin

Likely because it wasn't a thing. Like at all. I don't think he talks about it, don't think he ever made a statement. Just started including his boyfriend/partner in photos he posted on IG.

I know what you mean by it not being a "thing", but it's still a thing. Just the fact that no active ATP players have comes out means that it is. And it's great that he is posting pics of himself with his boyfriend. But it's also telling that I heard him commentate more than a few times and never heard any reference of his boyfriend, while I have heard Lindsey Davenport, Brett Haber, Jim Courier, Paul Annacone, John McEnroe, Patrick McEnroe, Tracy Austin, and probably others reference their spouses on air. It's often what goes left unsaid that is the most telling. Maybe I just haven't heard him commentate enough times. Or maybe he's self-censoring. Maybe he's been told informally not to talk about his bf on air.

In any case, I appreciate the info and the engagement.

Kevin

[JazzNU]

I know what you mean by it not being a "thing", but it's still a thing. Just the fact that no active ATP players have comes out means that it is. And it's great that he is posting pics of himself with his boyfriend. But it's also telling that I heard him commentate more than a few times and never heard any reference of his boyfriend, while I have heard Lindsey Davenport, Brett Haber, Jim Courier, Paul Annacone, John McEnroe, Patrick McEnroe, Tracy Austin, and probably others reference their spouses on air. It's often what goes left unsaid that is the most telling. Maybe I just haven't heard him commentate enough times. Or maybe he's self-censoring. Maybe he's been told informally not to talk about his bf on air.

In any case, I appreciate the info and the engagement.

Kevin

I meant it's not a thing, because it's been zero announcement so there wasn't anything to actually say about it. We've posted in the Players section about it, like hey, looks like he's finally out, but that's about it because outside of that, there is nothing to post. I don't think he's talking about it and I don't think he would. That's why you're not hearing anything on the broadcasts, I wouldn't expect him to start talking about him all of a sudden. That doesn't appear to be what he wants to do. Brian Vahaly, I think that's his name (I don't remember him playing), he's the retired player who is open to discussing his life with his husband and his kids. JMG is not that guy.

I highly doubt this is about anything JMG has been told to not talk about on air, but his choice. He is not that version of open about his life. He posts photos with his boyfriend, but when I say, that's it', I mean that's it. I don't follow him so I don't see everything he posts, but I've looked enough over the years to know, everything he posts is benign. There's no revealing information there. No happy anniversary, no I love you, no thank you for this amazing life we have together, no Happy Pride. And there's certainly no advocacy. The most you get out of him is to say "We" phrasing. Indeed, someone could mistake them for best friends if they are clueless because that's how generic what he's posting is in large part. It's the repetition that makes it clear that's his boyfriend, not because he's like, "hey, me and the boyfriend are going to Hawaii for vacation." I actually can't swear I've seen a single caption where he calls him his boyfriend, I'd say I haven't. Again, he's just does not appear to be that guy. Anything he's self-censoring on air, that's going to be his choice, just the way he's decided to be. He hasn't been with Tennis Channel long enough for any of his social media to have even remotely been at their direction.

[ti-amie]

I think most of JMG's on air work has been with Tennis Channel? Tennis Channel is owned by Sinclair and we know the ownership is very conservative. He's a very good analyst but it wouldn't surprise me if he's been told something. Martina never references her wife either as far as I know.

[JazzNU]

I think most of JMG's on air work has been with Tennis Channel? Tennis Channel is owned by Sinclair and we know the ownership is very conservative. He's a very good analyst but it wouldn't surprise me if he's been told something. Martina never references her wife either as far as I know.

But then explain to me the years before JMG was on Tennis Channel?

I get wanting to put this on Sinclair, they are easy to blame in plenty of circumstances. But I think this is really misplaced this time, the broader conservative ownership doesn't appear to actively push their ish onto TC and how they managed day to day. He hasn't been with TC long at all, and his IG has been the same for years and years and years. I really do get wanting to put this on someone other than JMG, but I just don't see how you reasonably can. Give me your reasoning, because this is seeming like quite the stretch.

I think Martina doesn't talk much about her wife on-air (she does on IG, FYI) because she's Martina, but that doesn't mean she's never mentioned anything personal, she has. Y'all really think she'd stay with Tennis Channel if they were actively being homophobic? Not the Martina I'm familiar with.

Also, are we just pretending Martina didn't propose on the Tennis Channel set at this point or what?

[Jeff from TX]

Just re-posting my last couple of paragraphs from my above post - with an important correction which makes a significant difference...

Personally, I see no reason for anyone to 'come out', because one's sexual preference is entirely irrelevant to their job as an athlete - just as irrelevant as a person's skin colour, or hair colour, or favourite colour, favourite foods, etc. It's also none of the team's business, none of any associations' business, none of the fans' business, etc.
If you want to share personal details of your life with people you know well and trust, then fine - because you trust them, and their opinions/feedback thus possesses a value to you. Beyond that, however, is entirely unnecessary in my view.
I simply don't see any benefit in the current popular trend of making one's life (NOT 'like') so public, and telling anyone who'll listen about the personal details of your life. This is the unfortunate foundation of 'social media', of course. Any feedback - positive or negative - one receives from irrelevant people, people you possess no bond with, etc. has no value - so why seek it? I don't see that desperately seeking such validation from people who should be irrelevant to the subject is a healthy path to pursue. Validation of irrelevant people should not be necessary to establish a solid self-esteem and self-confidence.

Deuce,

I know nothing about your personal life, but let me say that for me personally, there is value for someone to come out, both for themselves and for the larger public. The value for the larger public is that there are still a number of closeted, fearful people here in the U.S. Depending on where you live, the fear factor may be much larger than other parts of the U.S. geographically. It helps those closeted people to see that they are not alone, and in some cases may give them hope for a better future. In addition, it helps 'humanize' the alphabet people to those folks who claim they don't know anyone GLBTQI (or whatever the current set of letters are - sorry I haven't totally kept up on this). Now, should we need to be humanized to be seen as an integral part of humanity worthy of respect and inclusion? No, of course not, but for me to put on blinders to the larger reality of some folks' situation is not helpful to them or myself.

As for making personal details of an individual's life, I make a distinction between acknowledging a basic fact of my identity vs. giving personal intimate details of my life, like what happens (or doesn't) in my bedroom or when the drapes are closed. I do not seek validation nor am I desperate for it from strangers, but I do see it as a personal responsibility to acknowledge my reality when asked about it. I did not discuss my personal life in the classroom when I talked because I felt that was inappropriate for a teacher in general, other than in the most general terms if the kids asked me something like "what did you do over the weekend?".

I did not asked to be publicly outed when me and my husband went to get married, but it happened, and I would like to think (although I may be deluding myself) that it may have helped move the needle towards greater acceptance and understanding towards gay relationships around the world. I say that since our photo appeared around the world. My breakdown into tears when the judge granted our request for a waiver to get married that weekend after the Supreme Court decision was spontaneous and a surprise to me. I thought I had worked through all those emotions years before, but when you want something for so long and are denied, and then hear the word "yes" - well, that is something that straight people may not be able to understand. So is there value to publicly coming out? Yes, I believe there is. Here is the photo in question:

New York Times editorial/AP photo

Gerald Gafford, right, comforts his partner of 28 years, Jeff Sralla, as they stand before Judge Amy Clark Meachum at the Travis County Courthouse in Austin, Tex., after the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that same-sex couples have the right to marry nationwide on June 26.Credit...Eric Gay/Associated Press

Jeff

[Deuce]

Thanks for that, Jeff - I appreciate your comments.

I know some homosexual people of both genders, and have had this discussion with some. And I still don't understand why their sexual preference becomes an issue in matters which have absolutely nothing to do with sexuality or with romantic relationships.
I'm also the type of person who doesn't give a crap about what people whom I don't know and trust think of me; as long as I am comfortable with my choices and decisions and with whatever I do, I could not care less what people who are not close to me think.

Call me idealistic, but I don't feel that any individual's sexuality or sexual preference is anyone's business - except for those with whom the individual is, or wishes to be, in some sort of sexual/romantic contact or discussion.
How in the world is one's sexuality relevant to playing hockey, or football - or tennis? Or to working at Walmart, or to being a doctor? It is completely and entirely irrelevant to everything and everyone that the person is not to some degree sexually engaged with.
After all, sexual preference is but one of many, many elements that make up a human being.
By voluntarily 'coming out', is the person not then trying to make their sexual preference relevant? Is the person not acknowledging that their sexual preference is a major issue? I, personally, could not care less what a person's sexual preference is, or what their skin colour is, or what their nationality or shoe size is, as long as those things have no relation to the task at hand - whether the task at hand is competing in sports, or doing a certain job, or simply engaging in a conversation about a subject which is not related to those things.

If you want people to see the individual objectively, why would one deliberately risk pigeon-holing oneself by attaching a label to him/herself?
Would it not be better and healthier for the individual to treat his/her sexual preference as being entirely irrelevant - not making any effort to hide it, but also not making any effort to reveal it? It is not an either/or thing - it's not a choice between concealing it or revealing it. There is another option - and that option is to treat it as being entirely irrelevant to the situation one is in. Something can be important to a person without being relevant to given situations. For example - if sexual preference comes up within a conversation, then, fine, mention it. Or if someone asks, then fine - answer honestly. But I really don't see the point of trying to make it a relevant issue when it should not be. I see doing so as catering to people who try to make it relevant when it should not be.

It's a really difficult matter to explain coherently - but I hope you understand what I'm saying here. I object to the prejudice and discrimination against any minority. And the prejudice and discrimination occur when some people try to render irrelevant things relevant - like skin colour or sexual preference. So why help them to make it relevant?

[mmmm8]

Actually, I think your point is valid, as JazzNU said as well, so thanks to both of you. But even if you just focus on North American and West European players, that's still a pretty darn large pool to all be swimming the same stroke in.

Kevin

Are we comfortable grouping Spain and Italy with the rest of Western Europe in this context? I know they are both fine in terms of traveling, but have no idea it if would lead to any backlash or loss of endorsements in either. If we don't count them, the pool you're thinking of just shrunk. Though I'd think we could consider Australia as well.

Spain is one of the more gay-friendly countries in Europe, not sure why we'd leave it out. That's not to say there's no discrimination, but among the lowest. I can't imagine any sponsor backlash in Italy either, but probably more from fans.

These Eurobarometer (EU Survey) summaries (latest available from 2019) are a useful snapshot of LGBTQIA+ acceptance in Europe:
https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/default ... _final.pdf
https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/default ... u_en-1.pdf

[mmmm8]

@Jeff - thank you for sharing! Very happy for you and your husband!