The Goat Debate

[ponchi101]

Not a slam dunk for Serena at all. You have Martina, sure, but you also have Steffi, whose numbers, except for total slams, are better than Serena's. And, as disliked as she is, Court's numbers are also impressive.
The difference, in the conversation, is that these three guys are all playing at the same time, while the women are spread through history. At least, one difference in the conversation.

[meganfernandez]

Not a slam dunk for Serena at all. You have Martina, sure, but you also have Steffi, whose numbers, except for total slams, are better than Serena's. And, as disliked as she is, Court's numbers are also impressive.
The difference, in the conversation, is that these three guys are all playing at the same time, while the women are spread through history. At least, one difference in the conversation.

Court's out of it for me. 11 of her Slams were at the Aussie when it was a 32-person draw and mostly Aussies. To me, Serena is by far the GOAT. Longevity, Olympics, doubles, comebacks, played against her sister, transcended the sport, and more Slams. Steffi's big advantage is the Golden Slam.

[ponchi101]

Uhm, I would not go so fast. I wrote about it in TAT1.0. Let me update the figures and will post those blogs.
Quick facts about Steffi/Serena. Steffi: more total tournaments, more weeks at number 1, more years as #1, better percentage at the slams, fewer finals played against players that never won slams. Just a few numbers.
Should we open a female GOAT topic? With Serena close to reaching the end of her career (I am assuming that), it might be time.

[Cuckoo4Coco]

Not a slam dunk for Serena at all. You have Martina, sure, but you also have Steffi, whose numbers, except for total slams, are better than Serena's. And, as disliked as she is, Court's numbers are also impressive.
The difference, in the conversation, is that these three guys are all playing at the same time, while the women are spread through history. At least, one difference in the conversation.

Court's out of it for me. 11 of her Slams were at the Aussie when it was a 32-person draw and mostly Aussies. To me, Serena is by far the GOAT. Longevity, Olympics, doubles, comebacks, played against her sister, transcended the sport, and more Slams. Steffi's big advantage is the Golden Slam.

I didn't mention Steffi because I really don't know much about her because she retired before I was born. The one thing I do know about her is when she came along she took Martina to another level and started kicking her butt. Then there came Monica Seles.

Some dislike Serena as well. I guess for the player I know the best the Ladies GOAT would be Serena.

[ponchi101]

We can get so much tennis on TV nowadays, people forget that it was not so in the 70's, and almost impossible to find anything in the 60's. So, it is a logical process to go by what you see.
Believe some of us old geezers. When Martina was playing, she was an impressive sight. She just did not "evolve" the sport; she mutated it. The tennis game, the conditioning, the mental change she had (she was a bit unsure at first, then became an absolute monolith of mental strength). I don't think she has ever been credited properly for what she did for the sport. One example: she forced everybody to train better and better. Otherwise, you had no chance against her.

[Cuckoo4Coco]

We can get so much tennis on TV nowadays, people forget that it was not so in the 70's, and almost impossible to find anything in the 60's. So, it is a logical process to go by what you see.
Believe some of us old geezers. When Martina was playing, she was an impressive sight. She just did not "evolve" the sport; she mutated it. The tennis game, the conditioning, the mental change she had (she was a bit unsure at first, then became an absolute monolith of mental strength). I don't think she has ever been credited properly for what she did for the sport. One example: she forced everybody to train better and better. Otherwise, you had no chance against her.

I have watched a documentary about her and Chris Evert and it was awesome. It talked about when she came onto the tennis scene and at first she had a difficult time against Chris and then began to dominate her. It went on to talk about how they became really good friends and even now Martina being one of the first people Chris called when she was diagnosed with Cancer. It was a great documentary not only showing how Martina changed the game of tennis back then but how both of them formed a friendship through all of the competition they had.

I love listening to the "old geezers" as you call them. They have a lot of awesome stories to tell about tennis. I love to listen to my grandpa a lot with the stories he tells me. God if he only knew I just called him an old geezer. I think I learn a lot from that too.

[ponchi101]

This was my piece about Serena and Steffi. Just a few numbers.
http://blogs.talkabouttennis2.com/index ... vs-serena/

[Cuckoo4Coco]

This was my piece about Serena and Steffi. Just a few numbers.
http://blogs.talkabouttennis2.com/index ... vs-serena/

They both had very similar numbers. Graf did have a rival in her career in Seles like you said and she pushed her. Has Serena really had that other than probably her own sister Venus? I mean there have been players that have come and they go along the way but nothing really of a mainstay player that I can think of that has stayed around the top. Osaka could be one and Ash Barty but really the women's game it seems like it changes a lot.

[ponchi101]

The only player that, for a long time, went out there against Serena without having lost the match already in the locker room due to fear was Henin. She (maaaaaybe) could have been a worthy rival, but also got derailed by an injury.

[Cuckoo4Coco]

The only player that, for a long time, went out there against Serena without having lost the match already in the locker room due to fear was Henin. She (maaaaaybe) could have been a worthy rival, but also got derailed by an injury.

Another player I don't really remember much about since I was really little when she retired. I do remember she could really move around the court though.

[meganfernandez]

The only player that, for a long time, went out there against Serena without having lost the match already in the locker room due to fear was Henin. She (maaaaaybe) could have been a worthy rival, but also got derailed by an injury.

You can argue that Serena's lack of a rival was more proof of her greatness - she never let anyone get that close. And playing her sister for so many big titles is a special category of extraordinary competition. That's my takeaway.

Henin was a formidable opponent. Azarenka was starting to challenge Serena until 2013, and then their paths went in different directions for awhile.

[meganfernandez]

The only player that, for a long time, went out there against Serena without having lost the match already in the locker room due to fear was Henin. She (maaaaaybe) could have been a worthy rival, but also got derailed by an injury.

You can argue that Serena's lack of a rival is a plus in her column because she was that much better than everyone, not that they weren't good enough to challenge her. And playing Venus for so many big titles is a special category of extraordinary competition. That's my takeaway.

Henin was a formidable opponent. Azarenka was starting to challenge Serena until 2013, and then their paths went in different directions for awhile.

[ponchi101]

As I said in my piece. The "s/he had no competition" is always a circular argument. If you dominate your era, it makes no difference how good your competition was because you, by definition, dominate them.
It is the reason the records by Roger/Rafa/Novak are even more impressive. There is no way you can claim they had no competition.

[Cuckoo4Coco]

As I said in my piece. The "s/he had no competition" is always a circular argument. If you dominate your era, it makes no difference how good your competition was because you, by definition, dominate them.
It is the reason the records by Roger/Rafa/Novak are even more impressive. There is no way you can claim they had no competition.

And with the up and coming guys like Medvedev, Zverev, Tsitsipas, Alcaraz, Berrettini and others will any of them start dominating the trio of GOATS in the upcoming year? Are these the next crop of guys to take over and start dominating the top 3 aging guys? It will be really interesting to see what happens with that and how long Novak/Rafa/ and Roger can hang on.

[ponchi101]

You were not here when I said this. By now, the moment the big three start losing to the younger crop, it will be age, not the new group, that did it.
It will not be Sampras besting Lendl at the USO at age 19, or Steffi toppling Martina at age 19 too.
But sure, you are correct. It is time for the new guys to start moving in. And it will be sooner rather than later.