by ponchi101 Terribly sad, but they are being realistic. I wonder how much they are spending just doing maintenance to the facilities.
2032 should be theirs. This was the worst possible luck.
by JazzNU I wonder if it'll be possible to give them 2024 or 2028 and give Paris or more likely Los Angeles 2032? No question 2032 should be given to Tokyo if that's the only possibility, without a review or bid. But I wonder how on track Los Angeles is with all their construction given the pandemic? Like, the transit expansion. Is that hitting all their goal dates? If memory serves, it was an ambitious plan that didn't seem like it had major disruptions built in to the timeline.
by ponchi101 That would work.
But I wonder how many deals the IOC already has lined up already.
by JTContinental Olympic officials are pushing back on these reports, saying they are still making plans to hold the games.
by ponchi101 You do have to wonder how much revenue the IOC losses if the games are not held. No fees from any sponsor, no little kickbacks to feed the beast.
by the Moz
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 22, 2021 2:36 pm
You do have to wonder how much revenue the IOC losses if the games are not held. No fees from any sponsor, no little kickbacks to feed the beast.
Hence there will not be a cancellation of Tokyo 2020 until the very last possible minute.
by JazzNU
by JazzNU
by JazzNU ^^ I think some of the big losers here are winter sports, soccer and horsing. Highly likely the same programming will be available on Peacock, but this was a network that I think aired a good deal of that programming. Off the top of my head they had a good deal of Figure Skating, Skiing, non-Triple Crown horse racing, and Premier League in addition to the NHL games. The loss of easy to watch cable vs. streaming that requires an account even for the free stuff, let alone a strong internet connection seems significant. I can't imagine a ton will truly move to USA. I'm sure some of the biggies will, but nothing to compare to a 24-hour sports network.
by ti-amie NBCSN is where I could watch speed skating, swimming and track and field. I'll miss it.
by JazzNU I almost wrote swimming and diving because I thought this was the right channel. They truly are the network that shows the most Olympic sports and so losing that really seems like a blow to the non-major sports.
by Togtdyalttai I'm late to the party to say something about the Olympics, but if those rumors do end up being true, it's extremely sad. I was in Tokyo in November 2019 (it's weird to think of that as my last vacation) and there were already preparations for the games then. There were talks of how the city would change from the games; one aspect that I remember more than others is that there would be more gluten-free food available (I'm intolerant). It looks as though the Olympics might just be yet another casualty of the pandemic
Summary: he is making Euro 555MM for a 4 year contract. That is Euro 320/minute of his life, whether on the pitch or off.
... And in other news, thousands of people on the very same planet as Messi are suffering and dying each and every day because they cannot afford adequate food and/or shelter.
sigh...
by ti-amie He's also suing whoever leaked the contract details.
Again, in some circles there's lots of money sloshing around. In others, well, there isn't.
by ti-amie
by ponchi101 The "Georgia Genitalia Assessment Board", or GGAB. Surely nobody will joke about that, right? I mean, as long as they don't make it the Genitalia Regional Assessment Boards...
Do they even bring their brains to work?
by shmrck14 Wasn't sure where else to post this and not sure how familiar everyone is with this story...
by ti-amie
shmrck14 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:04 am
Wasn't sure where else to post this and not sure how familiar everyone is with this story...
Gym Jordan is probably not amused...
by ti-amie Good grief!
by ti-amie
by ti-amie Prayers indeed.
by JazzNU Don't you dare 2021! You're already on razor thin ice as it is.
by ti-amie
by shtexas Yikes!
by ti-amie
by JazzNU Police sources are telling ESPN that they do not believe the injuries are life threatening.
by ponchi101 Good to know, but if the above "multiple leg injuries" are real, this is not trivial.
Let's hope that is an exaggeration and that he will leave the hospital soon.
by JazzNU MSNBC reporting now that the jaws of life were not used to get him out of the car, which would make sense since the car's roof is intact. Also said to have been alert when talking to first responders. Good signs though leg injuries requiring immediate surgery are still very concerning.
by Deuce It looks very much like Tiger was speeding, per reports and police analysis of the scene. The speed limit on that section of that road is not high, I heard someone who knows the area say.
The sight of the accident is on a curve. Police said there were no skid marks, and the vehicle travelled a long way - including through a forested area - after the initial impact with the centre median. Given that the vehicle travelled a long way after initial impact, and was skidding and rolling, and not on its wheels, for a large portion of the travelling distance, high speed is seen as the likely cause.
People are also saying that he left his point of departure "at high speed".
Also, after hitting the centre median, the vehicle crossed over into the oncoming lanes before it entered the forested area. It was just pure luck that he didn't hit anyone else in those oncoming lanes.
Looks like this might be yet another case of a 'famous star' thinking he can get away with anything because he's a 'famous star'.
Sadly, some people only learn the hard way. You'd think that Tiger would have learned something from his previous experiences.
by ponchi101 Watching CNN, the description of the injuries and medical procedures sound very complex. He is alive and well, of course (as well as he can be), but his golf career is another matter. This will not be a rehab measured in months.
by Suliso Jack Nicklaus can definitely sleep well now.
by the Moz Tiger's golf & life choices have asked a lot of his body. Not sure he gets back on the golf course in a professional capacity this time.
by ti-amie Sorry this came first.
by JazzNU In terms of Tiger, I heard the news and the leg injuries the first day and what I've been hoping for since is that he'll be able to walk the course with his son again at some point and walk his daughter down the aisle. I think hoping for more is a bit much right now.
by JazzNU But we're still hosting the Olympics in 4 months, right? I don't see how when Tokyo is turning away a single sport event right now, but okay.
International gymnastics test event for Tokyo Games canceled, citing travel restrictions
TOKYO -- A gymnastics test event in Tokyo for the Olympics that would have included athletes from outside Japan was canceled Tuesday.
The Japan Gymnastics Association and international governing body FIG said the All-Around World Cup scheduled for May 4 was off. It was to be the last of an artistic gymnastics series doubling as Olympic qualifiers, but the other two World Cups in Germany and Britain were also previously canceled because of the coronavirus pandemic.
The Tokyo World Cup will be replaced by a local event with only Japanese gymnasts to test the venue for the Olympics.
Travel restrictions were cited as a prime reason for the cancellation.
The Tokyo Olympics are to open July 23.
by Fastbackss I saw an article earlier this week saying that the Olympics would be held but with no fans. It wasn't a great source, and I didn't see it published widespread...but it means there may be some smoke by the fire
by Suliso I've heard with fans, but only Japanese.
by JazzNU The delusion of Hoosier Nation is unmatched. They just fired their head coach and the fans are out here seriously thinking Brad Stevens is about to be announced as their next head coach. It's the sole reason he is trending on Twitter right now.
by ti-amie
by MJ2004 I just can't...
Tokyo Games creative head quits over 'Olympig' insult - BBC
Tokyo Olympics' creative chief has resigned after suggesting that a female comedian could appear as an "Olympig", in the latest setback for the Games.
Hiroshi Sasaki said plus-size entertainer Naomi Watanabe could wear pig ears at the opening ceremony.
He later apologised and admitted his remarks were "a huge insult" to her. Ms Watanabe has yet to respond.
The incident comes after ex-Games president Yoshiro Mori was forced to quit for making sexist remarks.
"There was a very inappropriate expression in my ideas and remarks," Mr Sasaki said in a statement released through the Games organising committee. "I sincerely apologise to her and people who have felt discomfort with such content."
Ms Watanabe, 33, is one of Japan's most famous comedians, and is known for her celebrity impersonations and body positivity advocacy work.
In recent years she has spearheaded a body positive movement called "pochakawaii", which translates to "chubby and cute", and in 2014 she started one of Japan's first brands to offer plus-size clothing.
Mr Sasaki, 66, who is in charge of the Olympic opening and closing ceremonies, had made the suggestions involving Watanabe last year via a group chat on messaging app Line. The proposal was immediately rejected by his colleagues, who told him it was inappropriate.
His resignation came shortly after weekly magazine Shukan Bunshun reported his remarks on Wednesday.
Organisers have said that current Games president Seiko Hashimoto plans to address the matter at a news conference on Thursday.
Former Olympian and Japan's ex-Olympics minister Ms Hashimoto was appointed Games president last month after Mr Mori sparked backlash when he said that women talk too much. He also said that meetings with many female board directors would "take a lot of time".
Since taking on the role, Ms Hashimoto has pledged to make gender equality a top priority at the Games, adding 12 female directors to the organising committee's executive board.
by JazzNU Not as shocking as it would be if @Ti hadn't posted that article on Japanese culture and conformity last week, but still can't believe the idea was spoken out loud
by the Moz Has Tokyo 2020 been cancelled yet
by Suliso Clearly there has been some much needed spotlight recently on the social issues in Japanese society.
by ponchi101 If I may.
It is not the Japanese society. I would even venture that the DEFAULT mode of all societies is "racist"; we are only a few hundred generations removed from tribal arrangements in which, in all reality, the tribe in the plains next door were truly an enemy and dangerous.
If you want to see "racism", go no further than Saudi Arabia: if you are not Saudi, you are . The same can be said for the Chinese. You would not have any idea of how discriminatory Brazilians are until you work with them, and the list does not end there. The people in the Balkans had that atrocious war based on their mutual hatred and when I was in Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan the entire region basically hate each other, with no true ethnic differences to talk about.
I would say it was and is a memetic construct. The "need" to hate the tribes around you was instilled too early in our cultural developments. It is solely that the USA is truly a country with incredible diversity and therefore it shows more there. Japan is now more in the spotlight and we are seeing more and more some of the aspects of their culture.
Heck, remember that they call the rest of the world "Gaijin": outsiders.
(And no, I do not think it is insulting, just a language construct)
by Suliso It's not just outsiders. Treatment of local fully Japanese women is also not exactly exemplary.
by ponchi101 Treatment of women, with some exceptions in Europe (I will dare say), is not exemplary anywhere.
by JazzNU
by ptmcmahon If I remember, isn't that one of those tournaments where none of the best players are actually playing (on the mens side ? )
by Togtdyalttai I watched some of that game. Our goalie, Ochoa, made two awful mistakes, one of which led to a goal.
by JazzNU
by JazzNU
NCAA v. Alston: Supreme Court not impressed with old arguments, but how will it rule?
by Dan Wetzel
Attempting to predict a U.S. Supreme Court decision based on the tone and tenacity of the questions that justices ask attorneys during oral arguments has proven to be a fruitless exercise since, well, about 1789. It’s always best to assume nothing.
So who knows what the nine current justices will decide in NCAA v. Alston — a case that boils down to, in the most general of descriptions, whether college athletes can be paid above and beyond their currently allotted scholarship. A decision won’t be rendered for months, likely sometime in June.
That said, the morning couldn’t have been too pleasant for NCAA attorney Seth Waxman, who got waxed by a slew of justices during Wednesday’s 90-minute session.
Liberals, conservatives and everyone in between sounded extremely skeptical as they listened to the NCAA's defense of amateurism, which was full of time-honored and eye roll-inducing tropes from Waxman such as: “If you allow [athletes] to be paid, they will be spending even more time on their athletics and even less time on academics.”
Never mind the NCAA “bubbling” a combined 132 men’s and women’s basketball teams far from their campuses so they could fulfill lucrative television contracts. Nothing wrong with that — it’s what the players want as well — but let’s not pretend it was done in the interest of academics. This is business. Always.
The NCAA's essential argument is that fans of college sports like that the players aren’t paid and therefore allowing them to be paid would adversely impact the popularity and profitability of the enterprise. Basically, we should continue to do this because we’ve always done this and it’s worked well for us and some people like it.
The justices hated that.
“You can only ride on the history, Mr. Waxman, for so long,” Justice Elena Kagan said. “... I guess it doesn’t move me all that much that there’s a history to this, if what is going on now is that competitors, as to labor, are combining to fix prices.”
Added Justice Brett Kavanaugh: “It does seem … the schools are conspiring with competitors, agreeing with competitors, to pay no salaries to the workers who are making the schools billions of dollars on the theory that consumers want the schools to pay their workers nothing. And that just seems entirely circular and even somewhat disturbing.”
Kagan was nominated for the Supreme Court by President Obama. Kavanaugh by President Trump. When you’re getting hammered by both of them ...
Yet despite all of that, there are no guarantees. As bold as the justices were in systematically picking apart Waxman’s arguments, they also expressed a hesitancy to make a ruling that might blow college athletics into something unrecognizable.
Somewhat understandably, no one seems to want to look back and realize that their decision — even if it’s the right thing to do and rooted in law — somehow caused a ripple effect that killed off March Madness, or even a bunch of non-revenue sports somewhere.
“How do we know we aren’t destroying the game as it is?” Justice Sonia Sotomayor asked.
“This is a tough case for me … because it's a unique product and it brings joy to a lot of people,” Justice Stephen Breyer said. “I worry about judges getting into the business of how amateur sports should be run.”
Whether such thinking should even be a consideration is a question unto itself. Still, it’s worth acknowledging that as important as this issue is to some, by Supreme Court standards, it isn’t much.
Allowing players to make a little extra money off their Instagram feed or TikTok account (which is how the vast majority will be impacted) isn’t some clear and present danger. Conversely, innocent people are unlikely to perish if some college athletes are limited to tuition, room and board.
Even the most vocal proponent for player compensation has to acknowledge that it, as well as allowing players to profit off their name, image and likeness, will be messy and unpredictable. Gloriously messy to those who believe in free markets, but messy still.
“It’s like a game of Jenga,” Chief Justice John Roberts said. “You’ve got this nice solid block that protects the sort of product the schools want to provide, and you pull out one log and then another and everything’s fine, then another and another and all of a sudden the whole thing … comes crashing down.”
If nothing else, Wednesday morning showed how decades of ineffective leadership — both at the NCAA, in conference offices and on campus — have left college sports prone. Rather than evolve, compromise and change with the times, college sports has clung to the status quo via lawyers, lobbying and scare tactics. (Competitive balance! Academics!)
Now the future is in the hands of nine justices who are likely more focused on the “Rule of Reason” and the Sherman Antitrust Act than whether or not paying players will really impact recruiting. (Here’s a solid prediction: It’ll do the opposite of what the NCAA says and actually spread the talent out more, not less.)
At the same time, state houses, courtrooms and perhaps even the United States Congress are hashing through name, image and likeness issues.
Basically, the NCAA did nothing for so long, it's handed the steering wheel over to politicians, lobbyists and jurists. They just punted it all away. It’s a disastrous way to run a business. Yet here we are, their lawyer getting so scalded by Supreme Court justices that the NCAA’s chief hope for victory is that the court is too scared to act.
“Antitrust laws should not be a cover for exploitation of the student-athletes,” Kavanaugh said.
by ponchi101 I can't agree that I am agreeing with Kavanaugh. Nothing more than exploitation of young athletes.
When NCAA was nothing more than local games played between some universities, the amateur thing was understood. The moment the university gets an income in the tens of millions, it is a per profit operation, and the athletes should partake in the revenue.
by ti-amie
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:56 am
I can't agree that I am agreeing with Kavanaugh. Nothing more than exploitation of young athletes.
When NCAA was nothing more than local games played between some universities, the amateur thing was understood. The moment the university gets an income in the tens of millions, it is a per profit operation, and the athletes should partake in the revenue.
This is why I don't watch college sports of any kind.
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:56 am
I can't agree that I am agreeing with Kavanaugh. Nothing more than exploitation of young athletes.
When NCAA was nothing more than local games played between some universities, the amateur thing was understood. The moment the university gets an income in the tens of millions, it is a per profit operation, and the athletes should partake in the revenue.
This is why I don't watch college sports of any kind.
Professional sports isn't exactly pure...
Because of the obscene amounts of money paid to professional athletes, the pure 'love of the game' has all but completely disappeared. It's turned into a 'pissing contest' of who can make $14 more per year. Negotiating table arguments today are typically "My client had 2 more RBIs than 'Player X', and so he won't settle for anything less than $1.5 Million more per year than 'Player X'."
It's grotesque.
Right now, there is still some purity and 'love of the game' remaining in college and amateur sports. If you start 'sharing the wealth' with college and other amateur athletes, the same thing will happen as is happening in pro sports - greed will overcome the athletes, and they will play for the paycheck - and the 'love of the game' will disappear.
by ponchi101 Unless you are playing a sport such as badminton, every single kid that goes into college with a sports-scholarship is going there with nothing more than the ambition of joining the big leagues once he is out. The system is singularly American; I can't think of any universities here in South America where college games are televised and a university makes a profit from that.
It cuts both ways. Sure, as you say, most of the athletes do not play for the love of the game. But certainly the Universities do not have athletic programs for that same lost love. There is no need to talk about how Alabama plays football "for the love of the game"; they have a football program because it provides them with that obscene amount of money.
The love for the game will not disappear. I do not believe that every professional athlete out there is playing solely for the money. You have used Leilah Fernandez as an example yourself: she obviously loves the game, so her primary goal is not profit. But she is also deserving of the money she makes, because she is very good at what she does. Every other athlete in the world could be the same. As a matter of fact, I would say that those that love the sport they play are more successful than those that don't.
Plus: not every college athlete makes it to the pros. So they should get some reward for the years that the helped that university make money. Because after their senior year, many of them have to get real jobs. And many do.
by ti-amie
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:06 pm
Unless you are playing a sport such as badminton, every single kid that goes into college with a sports-scholarship is going there with nothing more than the ambition of joining the big leagues once he is out. The system is singularly American; I can't think of any universities here in South America where college games are televised and a university makes a profit from that.
It cuts both ways. Sure, as you say, most of the athletes do not play for the love of the game. But certainly the Universities do not have athletic programs for that same lost love. There is no need to talk about how Alabama plays football "for the love of the game"; they have a football program because it provides them with that obscene amount of money.
The love for the game will not disappear. I do not believe that every professional athlete out there is playing solely for the money. You have used Leilah Fernandez as an example yourself: she obviously loves the game, so her primary goal is not profit. But she is also deserving of the money she makes, because she is very good at what she does. Every other athlete in the world could be the same. As a matter of fact, I would say that those that love the sport they play are more successful than those that don't. Plus: not every college athlete makes it to the pros. So they should get some reward for the years that the helped that university make money. Because after their senior year, many of them have to get real jobs. And many do.
Yes. And many of those with pro dreams can't make the transition from college to the pros. Also many end up injured and can't play. Let them get something that's not under the table for their efforts.
by Suliso
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:06 pm
Unless you are playing a sport such as badminton, every single kid that goes into college with a sports-scholarship is going there with nothing more than the ambition of joining the big leagues once he is out. The system is singularly American; I can't think of any universities here in South America where college games are televised and a university makes a profit from that.
It cuts both ways. Sure, as you say, most of the athletes do not play for the love of the game. But certainly the Universities do not have athletic programs for that same lost love. There is no need to talk about how Alabama plays football "for the love of the game"; they have a football program because it provides them with that obscene amount of money.
The love for the game will not disappear. I do not believe that every professional athlete out there is playing solely for the money. You have used Leilah Fernandez as an example yourself: she obviously loves the game, so her primary goal is not profit. But she is also deserving of the money she makes, because she is very good at what she does. Every other athlete in the world could be the same. As a matter of fact, I would say that those that love the sport they play are more successful than those that don't.
Plus: not every college athlete makes it to the pros. So they should get some reward for the years that the helped that university make money. Because after their senior year, many of them have to get real jobs. And many do.
Is that really so for those who play anything other than football, basketball and tennis?
by JazzNU
Suliso wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:52 pm
Is that really so for those who play anything other than football, basketball and tennis?
No. Maybe that's the impression from the outside, but it certainly isn't the reality. I'd mention other sports than this, there's the possibility of going pro, but not necessarily for big money. Even so, soccer, baseball, lacrosse, golf, volleyball, and hockey should be added to the list. Track and field, depends on your definition of pro, but that's another one. Even so, much more than a super majority are well aware they are not going to the pros and don't have delusions of thinking they'll reach that level. Most football and basketball players don't think that either FYI. Only the best of the best on college teams know they've got any version of a shot. The NCAA commercial is always true here, almost all will go pro in something other than sports. And they know it.
by Deuce Money - and the evils which accompany it - is the reason I prefer to watch young kids play sports.
Watching a little league baseball game, or a youth hockey or soccer or football game, etc., where the kids are, say, under 13 years old, is bliss. Because these kids aren't thinking about what kind of paycheck they might be getting in the future. They literally play for the love of playing the game. It is the game in its purest form. As it should be - and as I feel it was meant to be - before big business took over sport.
Junior tennis, to a lesser extent. Yes, the kids are playing because they love it (mostly, with the exception of those kids whose parents are living vicariously through them and pushing them way too hard - but that happens in all sports). It's just that in tennis, because it's an individual sport, and a well known one, kids are getting endorsements at a young age. And even if this doesn't (officially) pay them any money, there is free equipment, etc., and this gives them an appetite for material reward, which, sadly, has a tendency to override the reward of simply competing to the best of one's ability, and gaining happiness and satisfaction from that alone.
by skatingfan Top badminton players make low 6 figures, just saying.
by JazzNU
by Deuce He was driving at twice the speed limit. 85 mph (135 km/h) in a 45 mph (72 km/h) zone. If he were the only person on the roads, I’d say fine - stupid, but fine - he’s only risking his own life. But there were other people on the roads that day. That makes his speeding very much NOT fine - and extremely selfish.
Of course he won’t be charged with dangerous driving - because he’s ‘famous’. If he would have killed another driver when his speeding SUV crossed over onto the oncoming traffic lane, they’d also very likely find a way to NOT charge him with vehicular manslaughter. Because he's 'famous'.
But you can bet your ass that if Mr. or Mrs. John Q Public were in that vehicle instead of a ‘celebrity’, he or she would be charged. And if the crash were public knowledge, he or she would be crucified in the court of public opinion for being a very selfish danger to society. And rightly so.
But because this guy can hit a little ball well, his selfish and dangerous behaviour is completely excused by the majority - and by the media. And this is at least his second time having troubles while driving - a few years ago, he was caught behind the wheel while under the influence of something. They say it was 'pain pills' or some such - but the details are (deliberately?) very sparse and murky.
Celebrity culture is insane. And very unhealthy.
The double standard that society employs for ‘celebrities’ is pure and absolute BS.
by the Moz ^^ Nice vitriol
by ptmcmahon Agreed...but it is also the 100% truth.
by the Moz
ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:28 pm
Agreed...but it is also the 100% truth.
He just accidentally hit the accelerator instead of the break and wound up instantly going 40 mph over the speed limit! Those celebrities do the darnedest things!
by ponchi101 I really don't know if I would want those kind of news to come out. How does it make you look when you, apparently, can't tell the BRAKES from the GAS? And you are a world class athlete?
I can already hear the jokes about "He can't drive..."
by JazzNU Hitting the gas when you mean to hit the brake is fairly common actually. Cited as the cause of thousands of accidents every year.
by ponchi101 Oh, it goes even more than that. All modern AUTOMATIC transmission vehicles have a safety device that will not let you shift into DRIVE unless you are pressing the brakes. That was due to an accident and subsequent lawsuit by a woman that claimed that her Audi 100 (1980's) had lunged forward and caused her accident when she shifted into DRIVE. No engineers in the world could replicate the event, and all agreed on one thing: the woman had stepped on the gas as opposed than the brakes.
It is very common. But not to Tiger Woods.
by JazzNU I don't have trouble believing it could happen to Tiger Woods or any other athlete. Seems like it would be an even more common problem when the car you're driving isn't one you know well.
by mmmm8
ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:43 pm
Good news people! It’s not Tigers fault!
He just accidentally hit the accelerator instead of the break and wound up instantly going 40 mph over the speed limit! Those celebrities do the darnedest things!
This is going to be my excuse next time I am stopped for speeding (never 85 in a 40 zone, to be clear)
by Deuce It's important to keep in mind that he was speeding before he supposedly accidentally mistook the accelerator for the brake.
And if he did accidentally mistake the accelerator for the brake, what state of mind was he in? The sheriff keeps repeating that "Woods did not seem impaired"... but they also say that he was unconscious at first, then in a state of shock - so how can they possibly tell if he was impaired by something? Maybe he didn't smell of booze - but there are several ways to intoxicate or impair one's mind which leave no obvious signs of so doing.
And the sheriff says that they never tested for any drugs (or alcohol).
Again - this was not Tiger's first indiscretion while driving a vehicle.
Whether he was impaired or not, it sounds very much like the sheriff's department is bending over backwards to absolve Woods of responsibility for this crash. This crash which could have easily killed himself and other people.
This is what always happens with celebrity screw-ups - because this culture clings so desperately to their 'heroes', it is unwilling to admit that they are flawed, and continues to hold to the grand illusion that they are somehow infallible, making all kinds of excuses for their ugly (and dangerous) behaviour.
by Fastbackss Malcolm Gladwell did a podcast on whether "unintended acceleration" is more common that we think.
^ While that's interesting, it addresses only a flaw in Toyota-based vehicles which causes the vehicles to suddenly accelerate automatically, regardless of driver input. This is a situation where the driver truly bears no responsibility, because the acceleration is not based on driver input.
Therefore, it's completely different and not relevant to the Tiger Woods situation, as they are saying that Tiger may have pressed on the accelerator himself instead of on the brake pedal.
by ptmcmahon Like others are saying, sure you can hit the wrong pedal by mistake. It’s not going to make you go 40 km/hr over the speed limit accidentally , let alone 40 mph.
by JazzNU First, that's exactly what you guys were saying, that no one hits the gas when they meant to hit the brake. It's only after I pointed out thousands of accidents happen that way every year that backtracking on that point started.
And like most of those accidents, no professional with knowledge of accidents is thinking he went from 40 to 80, it would be that he was taking that downhill portion at say 60 and accidentally hit the gas and was going 80.
I have zero clue why everyone is getting high and mighty about this as if they've never sped in their life or why this is being treated here like it's celebrity behavior. The state road I travel on most Saturdays with a 45 mph limit is regularly traveled by half the cars at 60 to 65 mph and it's not an empty road at 7 am. This isn't celebrity behavior, it's human behavior.
by ponchi101 I think the point being made is that if it had been non-celebrity Kitty Forest, she would have been facing charges for some form of law violation. But since it was celebrity Tiger Woods, he is being let go easy.
Admittedly no charges are being pressed. I have not read if he was even given a ticket and a fine.
That anybody can have an accident is not being discussed. What is being talked about is how, after you have an accident in which maybe you bear considerable responsibility, your celebrity status grants you a different treatment.
by JazzNU I have no idea what happens most countries, but in the US, it's truly not surprising for there not to be charges in a case like this and that's for the common man. Solo accidents with speeding are rarely charged. This has nothing to do with celebrity and everything to do with the kind of accident that occurred.
by ponchi101 Ah, you see? That is news to me. I thought any and all John Publics would be charged with speeding and reckless driving. Good to know.
by ptmcmahon I’m saying exactly what Ponchi said and I don’t think I’ve backtracked anything. I was immediately being sarcastic that hitting the wrong pedal all of a sudden made him go 40 mph too fast... is total baloney. I was making fun of the article making that the excuse for him by using that headline. And I do believe that if he wasn’t a celebrity, someone who’s had multiple driving incidents like this would be fined or have license suspended or something (not that he can drive now anyway.) Saying tons of other people also speed doesn’t make it ok.
by Deuce So, JazzNu... was Tiger's screwing every woman in sight also 'not celebrity behaviour' from him?
What about the mansions he's lived in? The cars he's driven? Is that 'not celebrity behaviour'?
Come on... seriously. Anyone who thinks that Tiger hasn't taken full advantage of his celebrity status, knowing that he can get away with many things that others cannot get away with because of it, is deceiving themselves.
Celebrities become very accustomed to getting special treatment and to being viewed as 'gods' who can do no wrong. It becomes second nature for them to believe that they are actually 'gifted' not only in whatever they are 'famous' for, but in everything in life. That's what happens when everyone treats you like the second coming of Christ - your ego tends to swell to an uncontrollable level, and you think that you're not only untouchable, but that you have the power to do anything. There are many, many, many examples of this.
I strongly suspect that this thinking was behind Tiger's speeding. He's certainly not worried about getting a ticket. And, apparently, he wasn't worried about crashing, or about killing someone else on the road. Because he's Tiger Woods - and in his mind, those bad things only happen to common people.
You would think that his various experiences thus far would inform him otherwise. But even if something bad does happen, he knew damned well that he could get away with it.
This is just more of what I've been mentioning - people making excuses for bad celebrity behaviour because they desperately want to cling to the grand illusion that these celebrities are 'great' and infallible.
I can understand people making excuses for the bad, or dangerous, behaviour of their mother or father, or sister or brother... but making excuses for celebrities based solely on the fact that they are 'famous' for doing one particular thing well, is simply ridiculous.
The facts show that Tiger Woods was a great golfer. They certainly don't show that he's ever been a great human being. I'll assess his life on the latter rather than the former, thanks.
.
by ti-amie Tiger Woods was not raised to live life. He was raised to be a great golfer and that is what he became.
Then again if we're going to drag him for screwing his way through the female population we should talk about all of the PGA and the shenanigans the players get up to.
Should he have been speeding? No, but he will pay the price for this. Will he ever walk properly again? I can't see him walking a golf course again. He will probably end up being an announcer, something he was already trying out.
by ti-amie
by ponchi101
ti-amie wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 12:04 am
...
Then again if we're going to drag him for screwing his way through the female population we should talk about all of the PGA and the shenanigans the players get up to.
...
uhm.... Magic Johnson, Wade Boggs, Feliciano Something, Wilt Chamberlain, Marcus Allen, Joe Namath, George Best, James Hunt...
(from the top of my head. We could talk about Rockers, too )
by JazzNU His nickname is the Ginger Assassin
by Deuce For those interested in contemplating whether Tiger Woods received special 'celebrity treatment' regarding his vehicle crash, here's an interesting article I've just read...
From the article: "In those 22 pages was a detail the sheriff’s department hadn’t mentioned: An empty, unlabeled pill bottle had been found in Woods’s backpack at the accident scene. The report also for the first time described Woods appearing disoriented and combative after the crash."
by ponchi101 Interesting article. They do admit that they treat famous people differently because they are a "town of celebrities".
About Woods being disoriented: you were just involved in a front to end roll-over accident. Sure you are going to be disoriented. The possibility of a concussion is obvious.
They should have investigated more. But it should be totally private. I know tabloids live of this but Woods deserves his privacy too.
by JazzNU There is a messy war going on in European futbol/soccer if you're not paying attention. The dynamics are rather fascinating.
by ptmcmahon Whats the Coles Notes version? Making a "super league"?
by Liamvalid
JazzNU wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:42 pm
There is a messy war going on in European futbol/soccer if you're not paying attention. The dynamics are rather fascinating.
It’s been the main news story on Uk TV the last few days. 90% of people are absolutely ape over it, 10 % either agree or do t know enough, 0000.1 % (me) does not give a toss
by the Moz A Super League for European football is a bad idea. UEFA should sanction players & clubs where they can and push back at the idea as hard as they can.
by ti-amie
by JazzNU
ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:02 pm
Whats the Coles Notes version? Making a "super league"?
I think you just hit me with a Canadianism
Abbreviated version here is rough, I'm sure I'm missing some key details here. But the gist is that the biggest teams in Europe will form a super league. Unlike either all or almost all futbol leagues in Europe, this would have no relegation for the biggest teams. It would be, for lack of a better way to put it, like an American sports league in that respect, so you could suck for a long period of time (i.e. NY Jets/Cleveland Browns and Cavaliers/Buffalo Sabres/KC Royals) and you'd still share in the massive profits the same with no penalty.
FIFA and UEFA are pissed beyond belief. And somehow, they have a lot of fan support as they try to pretend that the super league is a greedy play, and fans seem to mostly want the status quo. But the associations that have been making nothing but greedy and exploitative decisions, that gave the World Cups to Russia and Qatar, that ignore the massive human rights violations in the latter in particular, so them boasting about greed is rich. Super League is evil and Sepp Blatter and FIFA are the noble ones here? Not even, they are all greedy af. But with fans wanting the status quo, they are essentially in agreement with enabling FIFA and UEFA to keep doing the corruption they've been doing for decades.
It's all rather fascinating. Right now, it looks like advantage billion owners of the biggest European clubs and they are set to topple the FIFA/UEFA monopolies. The biggest play FIFA and UEFA have to make is to block super league players from playing in the World and Euro Cups. But at the moment, that doesn't appear to be something that is going to turn the tide in forming the super league.
Hopefully @liam will be willing to correct anything I've gotten wrong. I'm hearing about it almost exclusively from American fans that follow European soccer on a sports radio show I listen to here, not directly from anyone covering it in Europe.
by ponchi101 The only reason why FIFA/UEFA can be pissed off is because they are not getting a cut. They are the two most corrupt organizations in sports in the world, for reasons you mentioned and plenty of others.
by the Moz FIFA & UEFA obviously corrupt. Whatever entity governs this Super League will be corrupt as well. But at least the spirit of football and fairer play resonates more loudly for me with the two former than the sad latter on offer.
ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:02 pm
Whats the Coles Notes version? Making a "super league"?
I think you just hit me with a Canadianism
Abbreviated version here is rough, I'm sure I'm missing some key details here. But the gist is that the biggest teams in Europe will form a super league. Unlike either all or almost all futbol leagues in Europe, this would have no relegation for the biggest teams. It would be, for lack of a better way to put it, like an American sports league in that respect, so you could suck for a long period of time (i.e. NY Jets/Cleveland Browns and Cavaliers/Buffalo Sabres/KC Royals) and you'd still share in the massive profits the same with no penalty.
FIFA and UEFA are pissed beyond belief. And somehow, they have a lot of fan support as they try to pretend that the super league is a greedy play, and fans seem to mostly want the status quo. But the associations that have been making nothing but greedy and exploitative decisions, that gave the World Cups to Russia and Qatar, that ignore the massive human rights violations in the latter in particular, so them boasting about greed is rich. Super League is evil and Sepp Blatter and FIFA are the noble ones here? Not even, they are all greedy af. But with fans wanting the status quo, they are essentially in agreement with enabling FIFA and UEFA to keep doing the corruption they've been doing for decades.
It's all rather fascinating. Right now, it looks like advantage billion owners of the biggest European clubs and they are set to topple the FIFA/UEFA monopolies. The biggest play FIFA and UEFA have to make is to block super league players from playing in the World and Euro Cups. But at the moment, that doesn't appear to be something that is going to turn the tide in forming the super league.
Hopefully @liam will be willing to correct anything I've gotten wrong. I'm hearing about it almost exclusively from American fans that follow European soccer on a sports radio show I listen to here, not directly from anyone covering it in Europe.
I’ll be honest I’m not much of a football fan! All I know is that Boris Johnson has pledged to the nation that he will do everything in his power to stop it happening, the fans of the “big 6” are threatening to boycott the matches, and ex professionals and even current players are urging the English Prrmier League to kick the breakaway teams out of the league if they insist on joining the super league and there’s talk of FIFA banning competing players from playing for the national teams. There’s already demonstrations taking place outside stadiums. In the current climate I personally think they’ve all gone insane to take this so seriously
by mmmm8 I don't really understand how this would possibly be more appealing to fans than UEFA Champions' League (which this aims to replace as the matches would play at the same time).
I thought it was pretty interesting German clubs have zero interest in this. Arguably, Bundesliga gets less international interest the EPL or La Liga, so there could be more exposure for them.
by mmmm8
Liamvalid wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:52 pm
I’ll be honest I’m not much of a football fan! All I know is that Boris Johnson has pledged to the nation that he will do everything in his power to stop it happening, the fans of the “big 6” are threatening to boycott the matches, and ex professionals and even current players are urging the English Prrmier League to kick the breakaway teams out of the league if they insist on joining the super league and there’s talk of FIFA banning competing players from playing for the national teams. There’s already demonstrations taking place outside stadiums. In the current climate I personally think they’ve all gone insane to take this so seriously
ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:02 pm
Whats the Coles Notes version? Making a "super league"?
I think you just hit me with a Canadianism
Oops.. yes I assume the American version is the Cliffs Notes version? Thanks for the summary though.
If FIFA thinks their best bet is to bar any players in Super League from playing World Cup...well they're pretty silly then if they think that is anything more than a hollow threat.
by JazzNU
mmmm8 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:59 pm
I don't really understand how this would possibly be more appealing to fans than UEFA Champions' League (which this aims to replace as the matches would play at the same time).
I thought it was pretty interesting German clubs have zero interest in this. Arguably, Bundesliga gets less international interest the EPL or La Liga, so there could be more exposure for them.
So, I don't think this about appealing more to the fans that currently exist. It's about appealing to fans worldwide, in particular it appears to want to appeal to American and Chinese viewers. Champions League makes (comparatively) peanuts in international TV contracts I think, I know the one here is nothing to write home about. There's clearly already backing for much more lucrative deals to be in place if this Super League comes to pass. They are trying to grow their worldwide popularity way more than their local. And that makes sense to a certain extent. European soccer fans seem like they are loyal to a fault, so they are banking on current fans being mad now, but still wanting to support their teams and coming around eventually, and then drawing in the international audience by having a league of super teams. Because Champions League, I think the idea of it is similar, but the teams, there's a decent number of clubs that are relatively unknown and likely a hard sell internationally.
The money that's at stake here is enough to wipe out losses from the pandemic or just about. These billionaires apparently only have $27 billion per owner and they must get it back up to that $33 billion pre-pandemic level or some grandchild in their family might have to drive a Lexus! Can you imagine the horror?
mmmm8 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:59 pm
I don't really understand how this would possibly be more appealing to fans than UEFA Champions' League (which this aims to replace as the matches would play at the same time).
I thought it was pretty interesting German clubs have zero interest in this. Arguably, Bundesliga gets less international interest the EPL or La Liga, so there could be more exposure for them.
So, I don't think this about appealing more to the fans that currently exist. It's about appealing to fans worldwide, in particular it appears to want to appeal to American and Chinese viewers.
haha, good luck!
by JazzNU Chelsea announced early afternoon that they were dropping out of the Super League. After that, Man City said they'd be dropping out as well. Now it's all 6 Premier League clubs - Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Manchester City, Manchester United and Tottenham - are dropping out. There are rumors that UEFA paid (bribed) the clubs with significant amounts of money to get them to drop out. So Super League appears to be falling apart.
I say appears to be because the Real Madrid guy said that all the clubs signed the contract. So likely done, but also, someone is getting a pretty penny out of breaking a contact that was backed by billions.
In other news, Champions League is in the process of getting worse because they made dumb changes that misses the point from what I can tell in response to the announcement of Super League. Some of these teams might regret backing out of a well funded, similar idea with more money making opportunities in the not too distant future.
And I'm sure we'll see fans criticizing FIFA or UEFA for corruption or enabling human rights violations soon and they'll pretend like they didn't greatly empower them more than ever in these past 48 hours.
by Fastbackss I feel like this is a precursor to a similar thing happening to NCAA football in the US...
by Suliso People organizing this league didn't understand or underestimated cultural part of football.
by JazzNU
Suliso wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:10 pm
People organizing this league didn't understand or underestimated cultural part of football.
That's what I've seen plenty say. And I really think they are missing the point. They understand the culture fine, but they are looking at their books too. They understand a guaranteed $400 million to start for just being in it vs. $90 million when you win it all. Super League's money backing is just appreciably more lucrative.
by JazzNU
by the Moz People power stopped the Super Dumb League
Question is, for how long??
by JazzNU I love this. I had no idea the Premier League was so comparatively new or how it came to be. You sure as heck can't tell from the last few days of people talking about it as if it dates back to the stone ages and keeping it fully intact as is.
by the Moz Sir Alex is the most successful Manager in Premier League history, so he's okay with being on the wrong side of history back then
Suliso wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:10 pm
People organizing this league didn't understand or underestimated cultural part of football.
That's what I've seen plenty say. And I really think they are missing the point. They understand the culture fine, but they are looking at their books too. They understand a guaranteed $400 million to start for just being in it vs. $90 million when you win it all. Super League's money backing is just appreciably more lucrative.
They understand the money part perfectly well, what they didn't understand is how vicious the oposition would be at a grass roots level and also from politicians. It all collapsed (for now anyway) in less than three days...
by Deuce Maybe they figured they might be able to slip this by the fans; that now would be the time to try it because fewer fans are paying attention during the pandemic.
If that was (at least partially) their thinking, it seems that they were grossly mistaken.
by mmmm8
Deuce wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 2:52 am
Maybe they figured they might be able to slip this by the fans; that now would be the time to try it because fewer fans are paying attention during the pandemic.
If that was (at least partially) their thinking, it seems that they were grossly mistaken.
I think it's quite the opposite. There's little else going on so fans are paying attention even more than usual.
Deuce wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 2:52 am
Maybe they figured they might be able to slip this by the fans; that now would be the time to try it because fewer fans are paying attention during the pandemic.
If that was (at least partially) their thinking, it seems that they were grossly mistaken.
I think it's quite the opposite. There's little else going on so fans are paying attention even more than usual.
In a sense, yes...
I guess what I mean is that maybe they were thinking that the fans are not as passionate during the pandemic as they were prior to. I know that soccer fans in Europe are extremely passionate (that's the polite word)... and maybe the powers that be were hoping that, because no pro sports are functioning normally, or at 100%, now, maybe they could get away with this major change without too much backlash.
In any case, whatever they were thinking, and for whatever reason, they were clearly quite mistaken in thinking that they could get away with it.
by ti-amie Football/soccer fans not passionate? Asleep at the wheel? Their spaceship must have just landed a month ago.
by ti-amie If you haven't watched "Bridgerton" you won't get it. If you have, this is genius. It was posted three days before the start of the NFL Draft.
by ti-amie
by the Moz Power to the people!!
Glory glory Man United
by ti-amie
by ponchi101 That's got to be the stupidest two-punch law in history.
Then again, it is Georgia.
by ti-amie Phil Mickelson has won at tournament at age 50. Someone posted this from way back in the day.
by ti-amie
by ti-amieSimone Biles Dials Up the Difficulty, ‘Because I Can’
The Olympic gold medalist’s new vault is so dangerous that gymnastics, for now, limits the scoring rewards for trying it. Biles says that’s unfair.
By Juliet Macur
May 24, 2021
Updated 10:04 a.m. ET
INDIANAPOLIS — Simone Biles, the most decorated gymnast in history, is renowned for performing moves so difficult, and so distinctive, that several have been named after her.
On Saturday, she executed a new one considered so dangerous that no other women even attempt it.
Her latest signature skill is called a Yurchenko double pike. Biles attempted it in competition for the first time on Saturday night at the U.S. Classic, her first competition in 18 months.
Biles had unveiled the vault, a stunning feat of power, physics and fearlessness traditionally only attempted by men, a day earlier, in a video from a practice that quickly went viral.
The Yurchenko double pike is considered so perilous and challenging that no other woman has attempted it in competition, and it is unlikely that any woman in the world is even training to give it a try. To execute it, a gymnast first must launch herself into a roundoff back handspring onto the vaulting table, and then propel herself high enough to give herself time to flip twice in a pike position (body folded, legs straight) before landing on her feet.
It’s the kind of maneuver done much more easily by a platform diver who has the help of gravity and the safety of a soft landing. Biles, though, executes it by producing enough speed and strength to power herself high in the air and then flip so quickly on the way down that gravity seems to have been taken by surprise. Others were too.
Not even the vault’s namesake, the former Russian gymnast Natalia Yurchenko, tried it in competition. (The double pike carries Yurchenko’s name because she pioneered the roundoff-back-handspring approach to the vault, not what Biles now can do after pressing off it.)
Biles performed the vault so well on Saturday that her one flaw, somehow, was over-rotating it. That meant she needed to take a few steps back on her landing to stop her momentum.
Still, when Biles landed, it sent the small crowd at the Indiana Convention Center into a frenzy.
The judges scoring her, however, were not so impressed. Despite the move’s difficulty, they gave it a provisional scoring value of 6.6, close to what Biles’s other vaults have received. That limited the points available for performing it successfully, a point that a frustrated Biles suggested was unfair to her.
“I feel like now we just have to get what we get because there’s no point in putting up a fight because they’re not going to reward it,” she said of judges and, ultimately, the International Gymnastics Federation, which has the final word on starting values for new vaults done in competition. “So we just have to take it and be quiet.”
Biles said Saturday that the gymnastics federation had similarly given her double-twisting, double-back beam dismount a start value that was too low, and that she expects it to undervalue her Yurchenko double pike when it is reviewed.
United States women’s national team coordinator Tom Forster agreed with Biles that a 6.6 was not high enough given the vault’s difficulty. “It doesn’t seem to be consistent with what they’ve done with other vault values,” he said, “and I don’t know why they do that.”
Part of the reason for that might be a concern for the safety of gymnasts not nearly as skilled as Biles — by assigning a dangerous move a low start value, the federation quietly discourages others from risking it. But there also may be a fear that Biles is so good that she might run away with any competition she enters simply by doing a handful of moves that her rivals cannot, or dare not, attempt.
“They’re both too low and they even know it,” Biles said of the rewards for her beam dismount and the double-pike vault. “But they don’t want the field to be too far apart. And that’s just something that’s on them. That’s not on me.
“They had an open-ended code of points and now they’re mad that people are too far ahead and excelling.”
Despite not being properly rewarded, Biles, the defending Olympic champion in the all-around, said she would continue doing them.
When asked why, she quickly answered, “Because I can.”
by ponchi101 This girl is not normal. That is basically saying "I am supergirl".
Insane, in the amazing sense of the word.
by ti-amie Michael Phelps is a freak of nature.
Katie Ledecky wipes the pool with her competitors.
But Simone is the one being harassed by her sport.
by ponchi101 I hope I made it clear that I am not in that group of harassers. I was in admiration.
by ti-amie
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 4:16 pm
I hope I made it clear that I am not in that group of harassers. I was in admiration.
I understood.
by ptmcmahon I think we all are in awe? Don't know how you couldn't be. Seems like they are trying to punish greatness for being too great, and there is sadly an obvious difference between her and other two you listed
by dryrunguy So, due to the lockdown in Argentina and widespread COVID concerns, authorities made the decision to move the 2021 World Cup to Brazil. Brazil was chosen over last-minute offers from Chile and Paraguay.
by ptmcmahon You mean the Copa America? World Cup is 2022 in Qatar.
by ponchi101 Copa America was going to be held jointly between Argentina and Colombia. Colombia, of course, right now could not hold a Yahtzee invitational in a high school room, with the Covid situation and the political issues running the country. Argentina is in one of its perennial crises, with the economy going to pieces and Covid also strolling the streets.
So Brasil is a perfect choice. No political turmoil, Covid free and a huge fan base for football which will fill all those stadia to the brim with people, packed shoulder to shoulder and then traveling somewhere to tell stories about how great it was.
Absolutely nothing wrong with that plan.
by dryrunguy
ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Tue Jun 01, 2021 2:37 am
You mean the Copa America? World Cup is 2022 in Qatar.
My bad. Yes. Futbol ain't my thing.
by dryrunguy
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 01, 2021 12:15 pm
Copa America was going to be held jointly between Argentina and Colombia. Colombia, of course, right now could not hold a Yahtzee invitational in a high school room, with the Covid situation and the political issues running the country. Argentina is in one of its perennial crises, with the economy going to pieces and Covid also strolling the streets.
So Brasil is a perfect choice. No political turmoil, Covid free and a huge fan base for football which will fill all those stadia to the brim with people, packed shoulder to shoulder and then traveling somewhere to tell stories about how great it was.
Absolutely nothing wrong with that plan.
This time, no emoji was needed. The sarcasm in your post drips profusely.
by JazzNU
by Fastbackss Also breaking news, I now despise duke 4% less
by ti-amie
by Deuce Not only leading by 6 strokes - but he also threw in a hole-in-one.
I wonder how many idiots out there will now be thinking 'Hey - COVID ain't that bad - look at this guy - he was leading by 6 strokes and had a hole-in-one while he had the virus! No need to protect myself - or others - from it'.
Sadly, there will surely be some members of the species who think this... sigh...
by ti-amie
by JazzNU Wow! If they fire him and his replacement doesn't deliver, I wonder if that has the potential to erode some public support for Bolsonaro. Pitiful to suggest I know, everything else should do that quicker.
by JazzNU So, I knew Brazil played Venezuela at Copa America on Sunday and Brazil won. I hadn't realized Venezuela was down 13 players to covid, 8 of whom were starters. I'm not even sure how that works.
Bolivia also down 4 players to covid.
Delayed games? Not a one in sight.
by ti-amie That's one of the greatest gifs ever.
by Deuce Marketing and commercialization has gotten out of control... so I quite like this.
I hope that more athletes start showing enough guts to do the same...
by ponchi101 I don't know. I am ambivalent in this one. No one has ever forced me to drink a coke, or a pepsi, or anything. The data are well known and it is available.
It is like cigarettes'. By now, the harmful effects are extremely well known. If you still want to smoke, I am not sure if I can feel really sorry for your ignorance.
by Deuce I'm thinking about kids, for whom these athletes are role models. And so anything that their favourite athletes market (or, as in this case, appear to market) will influence the young ones.
Also, I just don't like the commercialization of sports in general. It's not like sports needs that much more money - most pro athletes have been grossly overpaid for years - compare their salaries to what teachers, or even doctors, make - and the latter two contribute significantly more positives to society than athletes typically do.
by ti-amie
by JazzNU
by ponchi101 I guess it is a sign of the times that you can read a paragraph which you agree so wholeheartedly with, and still feel a bit of revulsion because of who wrote it.
But bravo for Kavanaugh. I guess he can go and have a beer now, at the ratskeller.
by JazzNU Insanity.
by ponchi101 Although the statistics are solid, they also cut both ways. Most young people can handle the virus well, but that does not mean all of them. At least one player will come down with considerable symptoms from the virus, for a tournament that was really not needed.
Yep, insanity.
by JazzNU
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:05 pm
Although the statistics are solid, they also cut both ways. Most young people can handle the virus well, but that does not mean all of them. At least one player will come down with considerable symptoms from the virus, for a tournament that was really not needed.
Yep, insanity.
Hard for me to tell what carries over from country to country in South America, since not sure about current border restrictions, but that covid article you posted about Colombia mentioned that over half the patients in the ICU were under 65 and it mentioned young people specifically as being the ones getting sick. Not sure if it's the same particular variant that is dominant in Brazil right now as it is in Colombia and if that is more transmissible or harmful to young people, but it definitely feels completely unnecessary given the current climate there. And it feels reckless because their approach has hardly been in line with public health standards to curb transmissions once a positive test crops up on a team.
by ponchi101 The surge in "young people" cases is directly tied to the protests. I am not sure if the new variant affects young people more easily, but it was simply that thousands of people were marching shoulder to shoulder.
Dry's weekly Covid report said it. With 10% of the world's population, we have 25% of the cases. If it is not because the vaccine used was the wrong one (Chinese in Chile), it was Brasil's denial, Argentina and Colombia's impossibility to shut down due to economic crises, Venezuela's inability to secure vaccines or Peru/Ecuador inadequate health care system.
But we also said it. Holding this cup was insane.
by the Moz Kudos to the American footballer that came out this week
by ponchi101 We were talking about it in the NFL topic.
One thing, that I find is good. A one day news. Nothing more. No 7 weeks of analysis, no elaborate show in ESPN to talk about the issue. Kind of humdrum, which, to me, is good. By now, it feels normal.
That's progress, I think.
by the Moz
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 4:53 pm
We were talking about it in the NFL topic.
One thing, that I find is good. A one day news. Nothing more. No 7 weeks of analysis, no elaborate show in ESPN to talk about the issue. Kind of humdrum, which, to me, is good. By now, it feels normal.
That's progress, I think.
Absolutely!
by JTContinental Top ranked LPGA player Nelly Korda won her first major today
by ponchi101 I was reading that now, all the Korda family has won at least one Slam title in Australia.
(Seb won the Aussie open juniors, the article says).
And. What a strong phenotype. They all look alike.
by JazzNU In case you missed this yesterday at the Tour de France
by ponchi101 Apparently French police will prosecute him. If they find him.
Good.
by MJ2004
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:20 am
Apparently French police will prosecute him. If they find him.
Good.
It was a her, and she has been arrested.
Tour de France spectator arrested over sign crash
French police say they have arrested a woman suspected of causing a huge crash during the Tour de France by waving a sign in the riders' path on Saturday.
The peloton was 45km (28 miles) from the end of the first stage, when her sign clipped German rider Tony Martin.
He fell to the ground and caused dozens of other riders to follow suit, in what was one of the Tour de France's worst ever crashes.
French authorities say the woman, who is French, is in custody in Landerneau.
Video footage of the incident has been shared widely online.
The woman can be seen holding a sign with "granny and granddad" written in German. She is looking away from the peloton coming towards her and does not see them approach, while holding her sign too far into the road.
As a result of the crash, one rider had to pull out of the Tour completely and another eight riders were treated for injuries.
The crash held up the race, which was between between Brest and Landerneau in north-west France, for five minutes, while bikes and riders were untangled and cleared from the road.
Following the incident, Tour de France Deputy Director Pierre-Yves Thouault said the tour would take legal action against the woman.
"We are suing this woman who behaved so badly. We are doing this so that the tiny minority of people who do this do not spoil the show for everyone," he told AFP news agency.
France has relaxed its coronavirus restrictions and many people have flocked to see the riders.
Those hoping to watch the race have been told to keep off the route and maintain their distance.
by JazzNU
by JazzNU ^^ Went into effect today because had it not, multiple states that had passed laws were going into effect today that would've invalidated NCAA's BS rules.
Everyone is anxiously awaiting Dabo Swinney's retirement because of this.
by ti-amie I hope that this isn't triggering for anyone.
by ponchi101 Can't thank you for that, Ti. But you know what I mean.
by ti-amie I wonder if he's been suspended?
by patrick Think MLB has him out for 7 days
by ti-amie Language
Would he have attacked a male athlete like that?
by JazzNU The comments on the women's and minorities IGs are always incomparably more aggressive and insulting in my experience. That's awesome that Daria was able to expose him.
Also, not sure this has anything to do with it, but as tennis is embracing gambling, people who place and lose bets seem to come out of the woodworks with vile comments toward whoever they place them on. Though again, I've seen it worse on women's posts than men's and I have no idea why that is the case.
by Deuce The reason that women are more targeted than men by these idiots who lose money on bets is rather simple: because women are weaker physically, and have been perceived as being the more submissive gender throughout history.
This is what idiots/bullies, etc. do - they seek out the 'weakest' person upon which to unleash their 'power'. At some superficial and dysfunctional level, it makes them feel 'better'. They need to step on others in order to feel more 'powerful'.
These people are obviously disgusting cowards - but, that said, they are relatively harmless (in the 'sticks and stones can break my bones, but names will never hurt me' manner).
I've been saying for a while that the increased betting will be a major problem for sports. Sadly, the type of comments shown above, which are definitely increasing, will eventually be viewed as being mild when organized crime gets more and more involved. Because organized crime is omnipresent in gambling, what's coming are very real threats against players and their family members, physical intimidation, likely some kidnappings, etc.
It's going to be ugly.
by ponchi101 It is time to start making rules about things like this. I would say that calling a woman names like this amounts to defamation.
And I know IATA here, but:
Why are "famous" people in IG, TWT or anything else like that? It has got to be nothing but painful.
by ti-amie
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 11:38 pm
It is time to start making rules about things like this. I would say that calling a woman names like this amounts to defamation.
And I know IATA here, but:
Why are "famous" people in IG, TWT or anything else like that? It has got to be nothing but painful.
No you are not the AH.
by JazzNU Since we were talking about flopping in a Euro 2020 match, thought I'd post his. A very legitimate reason to fall down in agony during a soccer match. From Copa America yesterday.
by mmmm8
JazzNU wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:22 pm
The comments on the women's and minorities IGs are always incomparably more aggressive and insulting in my experience. That's awesome that Daria was able to expose him.
Also, not sure this has anything to do with it, but as tennis is embracing gambling, people who place and lose bets seem to come out of the woodworks with vile comments toward whoever they place them on. Though again, I've seen it worse on women's posts than men's and I have no idea why that is the case.
I'm not sure that there is any increase in that behavior as tennis is embracing gambling (although that's not new either). The harrassment's been around since the advent of Twitter and players joining it.
by Deuce No... it's been significantly more prevalent as gambling has increased and spread. People have something concrete to lose now, rather than simply eating crow among friends. And when insecure, abusive people lose, they must blame someone - and the easiest targets for these jerks are those who are perceived as the 'weakest', which is the women, due to historical gender roles (which won't be fixed in a week).
As I've said several times - it will only get worse as gambling spreads further. Just watch.
by JazzNU Not completely sure who the target for this, but this has begun
by ti-amie
by JazzNU That's a lot to unpack. I don't believe this was in place for the NHL, so the MLS doing it is interesting. But the MLS don't have much to worry about in setting the team setting that rule either, their league is almost 100% vaccinated. But MLB on the other hand, their numbers are high, much higher than the NFL for instance, but not close enough to 100% where it wouldn't cause problems. And that WTA figure is super low. I feel like there was a "most tennis players are vaccinated" throw out pre-RG and I gave that statement a side eye at the time and clearly that wasn't the worst reaction if this is anywhere near accurate.
One of the more interesting things I've seen in recent weeks is that as Canada continues to be strict about protocols, outside of the Montreal Canadiens arena, it looked like the Italian Soccer Team's welcome home when they avoided the shutout in the Stanley Cup Finals. So they are definitely picking and choosing what they consider to be okay. It is definitely possible that a one-time tennis tournament will get the go ahead with unvaccinated players when repeated MLS games wouldn't.
This also looms large for the NBA too. There has been no confirmation that the Raptors will return to playing games in Toronto and maybe this is part of the reason why that hasn't been announced.
by Deuce For the former 'Rogers Cup' (whatever they're calling it now)... my linespeople friends tell me that they will be using 'Hawkeye Live', to reduce the number of people on-site. Each chair umpire will be assigned an assistant for each match - some of the more experienced linespeople (like those who have their white umpiring badge) will act as the assistants. But they will also have to have several linespeople on site in case of a power failure, which disables 'Hawkeye Live', of course.
They are also giving a certain degree of priority to local assistants and linespeople who live alone, and who'll be traveling between the tournament and home alone.
Another thing to consider is that some of the players will be coming to Canada directly from the Olympics, where they could potentially contract the virus.
I'm also hearing that there will be a limited number of tickets sold for the tournament - something like half of capacity. But I can't confirm that. I don't think it has been officially announced yet - which is a little odd, as the tournament is less than a month away.
As for the other stuff... The crowd gatherings outside of the Montreal Canadiens Arena were condemned by Public Health - so it wasn't something that was officially permitted. It was tolerated by police simply because cracking down on it would have created huge problems, as there were thousands of people there. In the later games as the series went on, other outdoor public viewing sites were created around the city, in the hopes of alleviating the number of people outside of the arena.
The Canadian NHL teams played the entire regular season against other Canadian teams only - to avoid U.S. based teams coming to Canada, and also Canadian teams going to the U.S. - because that was restricted. This restriction was waved for the Semi-Final (Montreal vs. Las Vegas), and the Final (Montreal vs. Tampa Bay).
by the Moz I'm taking a pass on seeing the Men this year, but I look forward to seeing live tennis in Toronto again come Aug 2022
by ti-amie Who'd a thunk it?
by ponchi101 Tiny must be in conniptions in Mar-A-Lago.
by ti-amie
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:09 pm
Tiny must be in conniptions in Mar-A-Lago.
I'm sorry but I just can't contain myself. The men who made and are enforcing these rules are just gross. I get that maybe they didn't get it when they made the rules, but now that someone has pointed out just how sexist and misogynist this rule is, they have just doubled down. It makes me sick to my stomach.
Kevin
by ti-amie
by ti-amie Let's get those men in Speedo's
by JazzNU So IMO, it's worse than that side by side comparison, though that's really bad. I think their position is especially understandable when you consider their "outfits" from the back. That's a lot of ass cheek on display and if someone says they aren't comfortable with it, I don't know why anyone with a single brain cell would have trouble understanding that objection.
by Deuce Of course it's wrong...
But what is even more wrong is people strongly objecting to this, then going out and buying the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit issues, etc.
Does anyone honestly believe that if a woman wanted to wear a not very revealing getup in the Swimsuit issue, that it would be approved? Does anyone honestly believe that the Swimsuit issue doesn't objectify women?
There has been an incredible amount of blatant hypocrisy on this subject for a long time.
by Fastbackss The center of the Venn diagram of people both (rightfully) objecting to this (loudly) and buying the swimsuit issue is likely a small sliver.
by dmforever We've talked about this before, but in light of this, I thought I'd bring it up again.
We now have active NHL and NFL players who are out. When will a male ATP player come out?
There can't be much more traditionally macho groups than the NFL and NHL, and yet, the organizations and most players have been extremely supportive (or at least they have been to the media). You just have to wonder what's going on in men's tennis.
Sure, tennis players might lose contracts, but so could the NHL and NFL players. And yes, these players play in North America, while ATP players plan in countries where being LGBTQ+ is more stigmatized and/or criminally penalized, but the WTA players mostly play in these countries as well and there are numerous out WTA players.
Kevin
by ponchi101 I would only say that an Eastern European, Latin American or African player would perhaps face serious consequences back home.
But that is tangential. Your point is valid.
by JazzNU I'm fairly certain there's a player on tour now who is semi-out, but not out out and I'd definitely assume his country of origin is the issue with taking that fully public, make a statement step. I don't think that part is a small matter that can be easily dismissed. And I should say, more specifically than just the country of origin, also the overwhelming religion in these countries.
I think men's golf is a better comparison to tennis. I believe they have had someone come out, but I'm not sure how highly ranked a player that person is or where they are from.
NFL and NHL or whatever team sport, is quite a bit different. Unless I'm missing something where tennis players are concerned, their travel is always individual unless they are with their national team, not delegated by the tour, so the security and access to the players is largely more protected in the team environment. And that's also in the US.
Are there out players on the soccer and basketball teams in Brazil, Argentina, Serbia, Lithuania, Japan, etc.? I have no idea, but I'd think that's a better indicator than using a US sports league as a barometer.
by Deuce
Fastbackss wrote: ↑Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:19 am
The center of the Venn diagram of people both (rightfully) objecting to this (loudly) and buying the swimsuit issue is likely a small sliver.
^ I disagree. I believe it's a much larger proportion than one would logically conclude.
As for pro athletes 'coming out' (especially males)... It seems to me that it would be more difficult to do so in a team sport than in an individual sport - because of fearing the reactions of your teammates, some of whom would no doubt fear it and object to it in some way... some would object to sharing a locker room with the person, etc. Plus the inevitable remarks from opposing players during games, etc.
Whereas in individual sports like tennis and golf, those things would not exist - or, at least not to anywhere near the degree they do within team sports.
Personally, I see no reason for anyone to 'come out', because one's sexual preference is entirely irrelevant to their job as an athlete - just as irrelevant as a person's skin colour, or hair colour, or favourite colour, favourite foods, etc. It's also none of the team's business, none of any associations' business, none of the fans' business, etc.
If you want to share personal details of your life with people you know well and trust, then fine - because you trust them, and their opinions/feedback thus possesses a value to you. Beyond that, however, is entirely unnecessary in my view.
I simply don't see any benefit in the current popular trend of making one's like so public, and telling anyone who'll listen about the personal details of your life. This is the unfortunate foundation of 'social media', of course. Any feedback - positive or negative - one receives from irrelevant people, people you possess no bond with, etc. has no value - so why seek it? I don't see that desperately seeking such validation from people who should be irrelevant to the subject is a healthy path to pursue. Validation of irrelevant people should not be necessary to establish a solid self-esteem and self-confidence.
by dmforever
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:40 pm
I would only say that an Eastern European, Latin American or African player would perhaps face serious consequences back home.
But that is tangential. Your point is valid.
Actually, I think your point is valid, as JazzNU said as well, so thanks to both of you. But even if you just focus on North American and West European players, that's still a pretty darn large pool to all be swimming the same stroke in.
Kevin
by DeuceJust re-posting my last couple of paragraphs from my above post - with an important correction which makes a significant difference...
Personally, I see no reason for anyone to 'come out', because one's sexual preference is entirely irrelevant to their job as an athlete - just as irrelevant as a person's skin colour, or hair colour, or favourite colour, favourite foods, etc. It's also none of the team's business, none of any associations' business, none of the fans' business, etc.
If you want to share personal details of your life with people you know well and trust, then fine - because you trust them, and their opinions/feedback thus possesses a value to you. Beyond that, however, is entirely unnecessary in my view.
I simply don't see any benefit in the current popular trend of making one's life (NOT 'like') so public, and telling anyone who'll listen about the personal details of your life. This is the unfortunate foundation of 'social media', of course. Any feedback - positive or negative - one receives from irrelevant people, people you possess no bond with, etc. has no value - so why seek it? I don't see that desperately seeking such validation from people who should be irrelevant to the subject is a healthy path to pursue. Validation of irrelevant people should not be necessary to establish a solid self-esteem and self-confidence.
by JazzNU
dmforever wrote: ↑Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:24 pm
Actually, I think your point is valid, as JazzNU said as well, so thanks to both of you. But even if you just focus on North American and West European players, that's still a pretty darn large pool to all be swimming the same stroke in.
Kevin
Are we comfortable grouping Spain and Italy with the rest of Western Europe in this context? I know they are both fine in terms of traveling, but have no idea it if would lead to any backlash or loss of endorsements in either. If we don't count them, the pool you're thinking of just shrunk. Though I'd think we could consider Australia as well.
In terms of US players, we have a group that largely come from conservative backgrounds. Even if I thought one of them was gay right now, am I positive they'd come out? It would truly depend on the player and the family. A US player could probably safely not lose their endorsements, but couldn't guarantee not losing their family given the pool of players we seem to get. Remember, by most people's estimation, we had a shotgun wedding in the mix in recent years, that is 1950s thinking there. And JMG didn't seem all that comfortable coming out even in retirement until just a few years ago and we can only guess if that was related to how many in this group he has coached.
I don't know of anyone particular to point to, but if we have any promising college tennis players going pro soon, that's where I'd look for the breakthrough. Someone who was out on campus and isn't going back in the closet once they turn pro.
dmforever wrote: ↑Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:24 pm
Actually, I think your point is valid, as JazzNU said as well, so thanks to both of you. But even if you just focus on North American and West European players, that's still a pretty darn large pool to all be swimming the same stroke in.
Kevin
Are we comfortable grouping Spain and Italy with the rest of Western Europe in this context? I know they are both fine in terms of traveling, but have no idea it if would lead to any backlash or loss of endorsements in either. If we don't count them, the pool you're thinking of just shrunk. Though I'd think we could consider Australia as well.
In terms of US players, we have a group that largely come from conservative backgrounds. Even if I thought one of them was gay right now, am I positive they'd come out? It would truly depend on the player and the family. A US player could probably safely not lose their endorsements, but couldn't guarantee not losing their family given the pool of players we seem to get. Remember, by most people's estimation, we had a shotgun wedding in the mix in recent years, that is 1950s thinking there. And JMG didn't seem all that comfortable coming out even in retirement until just a few years ago and we can only guess if that was related to how many in this group he has coached.
I don't know of anyone particular to point to, but if we have any promising college tennis players going pro soon, that's where I'd look for the breakthrough. Someone who was out on campus and isn't going back in the closet once they turn pro.
Perhaps counterintuitively, with regards to homophobia (and I'd say sexuality in general), Spain and Italy are quite far apart. Spain is much much more liberal. Same-sex marriage there is legal and has been since 2005, about a decade before it was in the US. In Italy it is still a long long way off. And attitudes in general are much more relaxed in Spain.
You make a good point about how conservative most American ATP players are. And I didn't even know about JMG coming out. How did I miss that? You also make a great point about college players. But I still have to return to my main point. I'm still surprised that it hasn't happened yet.
Thanks for your posts on the topic. I think I can infer from them that you understand how it important it is not to be in the closet, and that is much appreciated.
Kevin
by JazzNU
dmforever wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 4:54 am
You make a good point about how conservative most American ATP players are. And I didn't even know about JMG coming out. How did I miss that?
Kevin
Likely because it wasn't a thing. Like at all. I don't think he talks about it, don't think he ever made a statement. Just started including his boyfriend/partner in photos he posted on IG.
dmforever wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 4:54 am
You make a good point about how conservative most American ATP players are. And I didn't even know about JMG coming out. How did I miss that?
Kevin
Likely because it wasn't a thing. Like at all. I don't think he talks about it, don't think he ever made a statement. Just started including his boyfriend/partner in photos he posted on IG.
I know what you mean by it not being a "thing", but it's still a thing. Just the fact that no active ATP players have comes out means that it is. And it's great that he is posting pics of himself with his boyfriend. But it's also telling that I heard him commentate more than a few times and never heard any reference of his boyfriend, while I have heard Lindsey Davenport, Brett Haber, Jim Courier, Paul Annacone, John McEnroe, Patrick McEnroe, Tracy Austin, and probably others reference their spouses on air. It's often what goes left unsaid that is the most telling. Maybe I just haven't heard him commentate enough times. Or maybe he's self-censoring. Maybe he's been told informally not to talk about his bf on air.
In any case, I appreciate the info and the engagement.
Kevin
by JazzNU
dmforever wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:08 pm
I know what you mean by it not being a "thing", but it's still a thing. Just the fact that no active ATP players have comes out means that it is. And it's great that he is posting pics of himself with his boyfriend. But it's also telling that I heard him commentate more than a few times and never heard any reference of his boyfriend, while I have heard Lindsey Davenport, Brett Haber, Jim Courier, Paul Annacone, John McEnroe, Patrick McEnroe, Tracy Austin, and probably others reference their spouses on air. It's often what goes left unsaid that is the most telling. Maybe I just haven't heard him commentate enough times. Or maybe he's self-censoring. Maybe he's been told informally not to talk about his bf on air.
In any case, I appreciate the info and the engagement.
Kevin
I meant it's not a thing, because it's been zero announcement so there wasn't anything to actually say about it. We've posted in the Players section about it, like hey, looks like he's finally out, but that's about it because outside of that, there is nothing to post. I don't think he's talking about it and I don't think he would. That's why you're not hearing anything on the broadcasts, I wouldn't expect him to start talking about him all of a sudden. That doesn't appear to be what he wants to do. Brian Vahaly, I think that's his name (I don't remember him playing), he's the retired player who is open to discussing his life with his husband and his kids. JMG is not that guy.
I highly doubt this is about anything JMG has been told to not talk about on air, but his choice. He is not that version of open about his life. He posts photos with his boyfriend, but when I say, that's it', I mean that's it. I don't follow him so I don't see everything he posts, but I've looked enough over the years to know, everything he posts is benign. There's no revealing information there. No happy anniversary, no I love you, no thank you for this amazing life we have together, no Happy Pride. And there's certainly no advocacy. The most you get out of him is to say "We" phrasing. Indeed, someone could mistake them for best friends if they are clueless because that's how generic what he's posting is in large part. It's the repetition that makes it clear that's his boyfriend, not because he's like, "hey, me and the boyfriend are going to Hawaii for vacation." I actually can't swear I've seen a single caption where he calls him his boyfriend, I'd say I haven't. Again, he's just does not appear to be that guy. Anything he's self-censoring on air, that's going to be his choice, just the way he's decided to be. He hasn't been with Tennis Channel long enough for any of his social media to have even remotely been at their direction.
by ti-amie I think most of JMG's on air work has been with Tennis Channel? Tennis Channel is owned by Sinclair and we know the ownership is very conservative. He's a very good analyst but it wouldn't surprise me if he's been told something. Martina never references her wife either as far as I know.
by JazzNU
ti-amie wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:59 pm
I think most of JMG's on air work has been with Tennis Channel? Tennis Channel is owned by Sinclair and we know the ownership is very conservative. He's a very good analyst but it wouldn't surprise me if he's been told something. Martina never references her wife either as far as I know.
But then explain to me the years before JMG was on Tennis Channel?
I get wanting to put this on Sinclair, they are easy to blame in plenty of circumstances. But I think this is really misplaced this time, the broader conservative ownership doesn't appear to actively push their ish onto TC and how they managed day to day. He hasn't been with TC long at all, and his IG has been the same for years and years and years. I really do get wanting to put this on someone other than JMG, but I just don't see how you reasonably can. Give me your reasoning, because this is seeming like quite the stretch.
I think Martina doesn't talk much about her wife on-air (she does on IG, FYI) because she's Martina, but that doesn't mean she's never mentioned anything personal, she has. Y'all really think she'd stay with Tennis Channel if they were actively being homophobic? Not the Martina I'm familiar with.
Also, are we just pretending Martina didn't propose on the Tennis Channel set at this point or what?
by Jeff from TX
Deuce wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:25 amJust re-posting my last couple of paragraphs from my above post - with an important correction which makes a significant difference...
Personally, I see no reason for anyone to 'come out', because one's sexual preference is entirely irrelevant to their job as an athlete - just as irrelevant as a person's skin colour, or hair colour, or favourite colour, favourite foods, etc. It's also none of the team's business, none of any associations' business, none of the fans' business, etc.
If you want to share personal details of your life with people you know well and trust, then fine - because you trust them, and their opinions/feedback thus possesses a value to you. Beyond that, however, is entirely unnecessary in my view.
I simply don't see any benefit in the current popular trend of making one's life (NOT 'like') so public, and telling anyone who'll listen about the personal details of your life. This is the unfortunate foundation of 'social media', of course. Any feedback - positive or negative - one receives from irrelevant people, people you possess no bond with, etc. has no value - so why seek it? I don't see that desperately seeking such validation from people who should be irrelevant to the subject is a healthy path to pursue. Validation of irrelevant people should not be necessary to establish a solid self-esteem and self-confidence.
Deuce,
I know nothing about your personal life, but let me say that for me personally, there is value for someone to come out, both for themselves and for the larger public. The value for the larger public is that there are still a number of closeted, fearful people here in the U.S. Depending on where you live, the fear factor may be much larger than other parts of the U.S. geographically. It helps those closeted people to see that they are not alone, and in some cases may give them hope for a better future. In addition, it helps 'humanize' the alphabet people to those folks who claim they don't know anyone GLBTQI (or whatever the current set of letters are - sorry I haven't totally kept up on this). Now, should we need to be humanized to be seen as an integral part of humanity worthy of respect and inclusion? No, of course not, but for me to put on blinders to the larger reality of some folks' situation is not helpful to them or myself.
As for making personal details of an individual's life, I make a distinction between acknowledging a basic fact of my identity vs. giving personal intimate details of my life, like what happens (or doesn't) in my bedroom or when the drapes are closed. I do not seek validation nor am I desperate for it from strangers, but I do see it as a personal responsibility to acknowledge my reality when asked about it. I did not discuss my personal life in the classroom when I talked because I felt that was inappropriate for a teacher in general, other than in the most general terms if the kids asked me something like "what did you do over the weekend?".
I did not asked to be publicly outed when me and my husband went to get married, but it happened, and I would like to think (although I may be deluding myself) that it may have helped move the needle towards greater acceptance and understanding towards gay relationships around the world. I say that since our photo appeared around the world. My breakdown into tears when the judge granted our request for a waiver to get married that weekend after the Supreme Court decision was spontaneous and a surprise to me. I thought I had worked through all those emotions years before, but when you want something for so long and are denied, and then hear the word "yes" - well, that is something that straight people may not be able to understand. So is there value to publicly coming out? Yes, I believe there is. Here is the photo in question:
New York Times editorial/AP photo
Gerald Gafford, right, comforts his partner of 28 years, Jeff Sralla, as they stand before Judge Amy Clark Meachum at the Travis County Courthouse in Austin, Tex., after the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that same-sex couples have the right to marry nationwide on June 26.Credit...Eric Gay/Associated Press
Jeff
by Deuce Thanks for that, Jeff - I appreciate your comments.
I know some homosexual people of both genders, and have had this discussion with some. And I still don't understand why their sexual preference becomes an issue in matters which have absolutely nothing to do with sexuality or with romantic relationships.
I'm also the type of person who doesn't give a crap about what people whom I don't know and trust think of me; as long as I am comfortable with my choices and decisions and with whatever I do, I could not care less what people who are not close to me think.
Call me idealistic, but I don't feel that any individual's sexuality or sexual preference is anyone's business - except for those with whom the individual is, or wishes to be, in some sort of sexual/romantic contact or discussion.
How in the world is one's sexuality relevant to playing hockey, or football - or tennis? Or to working at Walmart, or to being a doctor? It is completely and entirely irrelevant to everything and everyone that the person is not to some degree sexually engaged with.
After all, sexual preference is but one of many, many elements that make up a human being.
By voluntarily 'coming out', is the person not then trying to make their sexual preference relevant? Is the person not acknowledging that their sexual preference is a major issue? I, personally, could not care less what a person's sexual preference is, or what their skin colour is, or what their nationality or shoe size is, as long as those things have no relation to the task at hand - whether the task at hand is competing in sports, or doing a certain job, or simply engaging in a conversation about a subject which is not related to those things.
If you want people to see the individual objectively, why would one deliberately risk pigeon-holing oneself by attaching a label to him/herself?
Would it not be better and healthier for the individual to treat his/her sexual preference as being entirely irrelevant - not making any effort to hide it, but also not making any effort to reveal it? It is not an either/or thing - it's not a choice between concealing it or revealing it. There is another option - and that option is to treat it as being entirely irrelevant to the situation one is in. Something can be important to a person without being relevant to given situations. For example - if sexual preference comes up within a conversation, then, fine, mention it. Or if someone asks, then fine - answer honestly. But I really don't see the point of trying to make it a relevant issue when it should not be. I see doing so as catering to people who try to make it relevant when it should not be.
It's a really difficult matter to explain coherently - but I hope you understand what I'm saying here. I object to the prejudice and discrimination against any minority. And the prejudice and discrimination occur when some people try to render irrelevant things relevant - like skin colour or sexual preference. So why help them to make it relevant?
dmforever wrote: ↑Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:24 pm
Actually, I think your point is valid, as JazzNU said as well, so thanks to both of you. But even if you just focus on North American and West European players, that's still a pretty darn large pool to all be swimming the same stroke in.
Kevin
Are we comfortable grouping Spain and Italy with the rest of Western Europe in this context? I know they are both fine in terms of traveling, but have no idea it if would lead to any backlash or loss of endorsements in either. If we don't count them, the pool you're thinking of just shrunk. Though I'd think we could consider Australia as well.
Spain is one of the more gay-friendly countries in Europe, not sure why we'd leave it out. That's not to say there's no discrimination, but among the lowest. I can't imagine any sponsor backlash in Italy either, but probably more from fans.
by mmmm8 @Jeff - thank you for sharing! Very happy for you and your husband!
by ti-amie
by ponchi101 Sure, if the vaccine were scarce in the USA, that would have been a rather gallant position by DeChambeau.
But it is not. How dumb.
by ti-amie Different countries have different versions of volleyball? Live and learn.
by ti-amie So this Messi mess.
by the Moz Messi was a tremendous footballer on and off the pitch for FC Barcelona
by ponchi101 It is not Messi's fault. But these ideas that a club can pay somebody 1/2 billion Euro and survive financially is truly nuts.
I do find it odd that he cried, though. Last year he basically was yelling out loud he wanted out. Anyway, €40/year and life in Paris will take care of those blues sooner rather than later. He will be fine.
by ti-amie The women's 100m at the Prefontaine Classic. Richardson got off to a bad start and comes in last.
by ponchi101 Thompson just scorched a 10:54
She is well in route to be equal with Usain. That is amazing.
by ti-amie Whelp
That mouth was writing checks her body couldn't cash.
by JazzNU
by ponchi101 I wonder what monstrous amount of money he is getting.
by Suliso A lot, but probably not as much as he used to at Real Madrid.
by the Moz Welcome back Chrissie
by Fastbackss The son of one of the guys on my USTA team is playing in today's Little League Championship game.
I'll be rooting for them! (Plus, let's face it, I want Ohio to lose in anything and everything)
by JazzNU This is WILD.
by mmmm8 Amazing story. Can't wait for the movie.
by ti-amie
JazzNU wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 2:25 am
This is WILD.
I think there's a second fake school too?
by JazzNU I've only heard about the Bishop Sycamore one, but will keep my eye out for mention of another.
by ti-amie IMG or something. I saw it last night but there was too much tennis drama going on...
by JazzNU
ti-amie wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:00 pm
IMG or something. I saw it last night but there was too much tennis drama going on...
That's the school that beat the pants off Bishop Sycamore. IMG Academy is a real school, though they are more a manufactured school, a sports academy that recruits. National Champs and more 4-5 star recruits coming out of there than anywhere. Pepper Johnson, a name I assume you remember being in NY, is the coach at IMG.
ti-amie wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:00 pm
IMG or something. I saw it last night but there was too much tennis drama going on...
That's the school that beat the pants off Bishop Sycamore. IMG Academy is a real school, though they are more a manufactured school, a sports academy that recruits. National Champs and more 4-5 star recruits coming out of there than anywhere. Pepper Johnson, a name I assume you remember being in NY, is the coach at IMG.
It's the school that kids training with IMG, including the tennis players (i.e. Bolletieri's program), attend. Its address is on "Bolletieri Blvd."
by ti-amie
by ti-amie More details...
by ti-amie
by ti-amie
by skatingfan Missed it by that much.
by ptmcmahon I had heard it was the "worst ever." It's pretty bad but don't quite think it takes the title.
by ponchi101 I remember one rapper that bounced it of his dirt. The one at the pitcher's mound.
Not the worst. Then again, I don't think that anybody is going to tell McGregor "man, you suck at pitching". He does not suck at punching.
by skatingfan
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:27 pm
I remember one rapper that bounced it of his dirt. The one at the pitcher's mound.
Not the worst. Then again, I don't think that anybody is going to tell McGregor "man, you suck at pitching". He does not suck at punching.
Or at least make sure you're more than an arms length away when you do.
by Fastbackss That was the first time I saw a bad reason to have a tailored suit. He couldn't extend!
by Deuce They shouldn't give assholes like McGregor any publicity for any reason. He's an embarrassment to the human species.
This is Gold... (I have no idea if people outside of Canada can watch this - if not, you're missing something quite amusing...)
by ptmcmahon Jordan deserves extra shame as a former "professional" baseball player
Not sure I would've included Snoop... his pitch was probably as high as he was.
Love the reaction of the person catching Mallory's pitch.
Carl Lewis must have the record for the most dubious top ten lists made.
Carly Rae was the one I was guessing would be number one...but I'd never seen #1 before.
by ti-amie Jordan should be ashamed of himself.
Snoop was better than I thought he would be. Maybe it was early so he'd only had one?
And the #1 worst deserved that ranking.
by ptmcmahon If Snoop had only had one it must have been a noon game.
by ti-amie
ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:23 pm
If Snoop had only had one it must have been a noon game.
by Fastbackss Speaking of Snoop and random, he is giving "the call" this weekend to start the IndyCar race in Long Beach
by ti-amie
Fastbackss wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:36 pm
Speaking of Snoop and random, he is giving "the call" this weekend to start the IndyCar race in Long Beach
What time does the race start?
by Fastbackss Green flag is 330 eastern. TV coverage starts at 3 eastern. So sometime between then which is early on the west coast
by ptmcmahon It would have to be the green flag too.
by JazzNU
Fastbackss wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:36 pm
Speaking of Snoop and random, he is giving "the call" this weekend to start the IndyCar race in Long Beach
Not so random. IndyCar trying to see their way to social media relevancy (which can turn into actual ratings) with that move. Snoop was a big hit, and by big I mean massive, when he did boxing commentary last year.
by ti-amie Snoop deserves applause for what he's done with his career. Not many would've been brave enough to make the moves he's made, from teaming with Martha Stewart to doing sports commentary.
by ptmcmahon Amazing to think how far he's come from his Doggy Style days. I bet many don't even remember that he was on trial for first degree murder back in the day (and at least partly wasn't convicted due to police incompetence.)
by Deuce
ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:04 pm
Amazing to think how far he's come from his Doggy Style days. I bet many don't even remember that he was on trial for first degree murder back in the day (and at least partly wasn't convicted due to police incompetence.)
Charged with murder, promoting drug use at every opportunity, etc... Indeed - a truly wonderful role model for kids.
That he and people like Connor McGregor are held up as as 'heros' speaks to the low standards of society.
Sigh...
by ptmcmahon At least Snoop seems to have reformed mostly... not that that forgives the past of course. But he does a lot of charity work now, mainly with youth football for "at risk" kids, and does donate lots of food to the hungry. He even led a "peaceful march" after several police shootings (ie the police being the ones shot) in a complete 180. So he's definitely at least turned it around. I believe now the only drug he is really promoting is marijuana and these days, debatable how "bad" that is. It certainly was a big reason he mellowed.
But Conor is all about Conor. I really hope no one even remotely considers him a hero. I love watching him lately in MMA, as he is losing more often than winning the rare times he does fight.
by Deuce
ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:21 am
At least Snoop seems to have reformed mostly... not that that forgives the past of course. But he does a lot of charity work now, mainly with youth football for "at risk" kids, and does donate lots of food to the hungry. He even led a "peaceful march" after several police shootings (ie the police being the ones shot) in a complete 180. So he's definitely at least turned it around. I believe now the only drug he is really promoting is marijuana and these days, debatable how "bad" that is. It certainly was a big reason he mellowed.
I think any perceived 'reforming' he may have done was likely at the suggestion of his P.R. people.
He was also a pimp - and still promotes/glorifies that lifestyle. Having worked with prostituted women and girls, I will say here that there is absolutely nothing positive about pimps.
As for the marijuana... when you have a 'cool' celebrity promoting it and claiming that it's 'cool' to use it, it will very obviously influence kids to use it. And that's not a good thing. At best, it's extremely irresponsible.
I've worked with people who've been consumed by drug problems - crack, crystal meth, heroin, now fentanyl, etc... and in 90% of the cases, their drug use began in adolescence with marijuana. It's about creating the mentality that it's better to avoid uncomfortable feelings than to address and remedy them.
So... harmless? No, not at all.
by JazzNU Since it was posted in yet another thread about the NBA and it's 90% vaccination rate, I'm posting. Weird how much attention it's getting at the moment based on 3 or 4 players really. And NBA is now at 95%.
WNBA has 99%, really the only US league that was that way without any pressure from their league, had those numbers months ago
NHL is at 99%, the league's rules are strict though and crossing into Canada is seriously problematic under rules, it got the numbers up quickly
MLS is at 95%
NFL is at 93%, strict rules that make life hard, not as strict as NHL or NBA
MLB is still around 85% at last check I believe
by JazzNU Leaning into the feud (as they should, it's the most exciting golf has been outside of Tiger to non-golf fans)
by ptmcmahon I know it's "for charity" but I'm sure whatever appearance fee etc they are getting may help make them like each other a bit more. And it's a golf "feud" so it's pretty silly to begin with
by Deuce
ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 3:12 am
And it's a golf "feud" so it's pretty silly to begin with
by Fastbackss I saw on the scroll that it's 12 holes - and I refuse to invest any effort to discover why it is that number.
by ptmcmahon That's probably plenty of the two of them for most people It's just a charity match so no reason to force it to 18 holes I'd guess... not like will make more people watch. Maybe more will watch if it's shorter.
by JazzNU
Fastbackss wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 10:29 am
I saw on the scroll that it's 12 holes - and I refuse to invest any effort to discover why it is that number.
I haven't seen a real explanation, but many are asking WTH is with 12 holes. But there were opinions in the last say 2 years that moving to 12 holes would increase interest in the sport because many casual and non-viewers said it was too long and too boring. I'd think an event like this is leaning into that and trying to get as many casual viewers to watch as possible.
by Fastbackss I know NASCAR for example "tries things" in exhibitions so this would make sense.
And, while I didn't seek it out, I did read an article that said they were trying to keep it to a 3 hour window (TV)
by ponchi101
ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 3:12 am
I know it's "for charity" but I'm sure whatever appearance fee etc they are getting may help make them like each other a bit more. And it's a golf "feud" so it's pretty silly to begin with
"I'll see at the club house, buddy!"
"Yeah. You better bring your lawyer, chap!"
"You're gonna be sorry you ever put on those plaid pants, Mister!"
by ptmcmahon In reality it's probably even tamer than that. Basically Koepka said DeChambeau played slow and that's all it took to get the feud going. Then they started making fun of each other's abs, followed by some eye rolls Maybe the worst was when DeChambeau waved at a camera while Koepka was being interviewed. Golf feuds are silly.
by JazzNU This was the most famous, but not the source of the feud. Bryson says something smartass to Brooks as he is walking by that is hard to hear on the videos, but has been verified by reporters who were present as what was the source of Brooks annoyance in that moment along with what he said. No, not exactly a deathmatch, but we're past the mere eyeroll. And also, the most interesting and drama filled golf has been in a very long while, so they'll take whatever they can get and lean into this feud as much as possible.
by Fastbackss I love that video and could watch it on a weekly loop. It always brings a smile to my face and each time I notice something different
by ti-amie I have no idea what started this brawl.
by ponchi101 I wonder if this was equally prevalent in the past, or we simply have smartphones today.
by Deuce
ti-amie wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 11:30 pm
I have no idea what started this brawl.
I would say equal amounts of alcohol and exposure to the cesspools of 'reality shows', UFC, and WWE, with a generous amount of ignorance, insecurity, and stupidity thrown in.
by ptmcmahon Fans have been doing dumb stuff and brawling long before "reality shows and UFC." But will agree with the rest, especially alcohol. Sports fans can be pretty dumb. And I imagine it used to happen just as often, just no one had cell phones to instantly record and upload it.
I never experienced anything much like that, although I did go to a Green Bay @ Cincinnati game in my Favre jersey. It wound up being the game Favre threw a career high 5 picks (surprising he only did it once.) On the way back to the car I was jeered by many drunken Bengals fans. I imagine it may have been worse if Green Bay had won, or maybe if I hadn't been with my Bengals jersey wearing wife. Halfway to car I just took jersey off...wasn't worth the slight risk of anything at that point.
by JazzNU
ti-amie wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 11:30 pm
I have no idea what started this brawl.
Mayeb it's just me, but wondering if this rises to the level of brawl. Seemed rather tame and a corny version of a fight. They got lucky no one involved knew how to fight I think, most places someone would've laid you out 30 seconds into this and been done with this nonsense if this was the level they were bringing.
by JazzNU
ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:21 am
Fans have been doing dumb stuff and brawling long before "reality shows and UFC." But will agree with the rest, especially alcohol. Sports fans can be pretty dumb. And I imagine it used to happen just as often, just no one had cell phones to instantly record and upload it.
I'd hazard a guess it actually happens a bit less now. In addition to knowing you can get recorded and caught more easily now and the least drunk in your crew maybe steering you away from these things, there's been less incidents it would seem at the stadiums. The on-site judges/courts have mostly disappeared I think because it's just less of that. At some sporting events they'd allowed more
Smartphones weren't around in the 80s and 90s, but regular TV cameras were. The more destructive stuff was caught by the local news all the time and we saw it, less stuff that happened in the stadium than nonsense occurring outside, but still, nothing to do with the advent of the smartphone.
by Deuce I still say that the growing presence - and inherent influence - of cesspools like 'reality shows', UFC, WWE, etc. is largely responsible for this stuff. In those cesspools, the dominant theme is complete disrespect - disrespect is viewed as a virtue, and is encouraged, while respect is portrayed as a weakness... And I don't believe for a second that it's at all co-incidental that we've seen a significant decline in the basic respect people give each other in society over the course of the past 30 years or so.
by ptmcmahon You realize WWE has been on TV for at least 35 years now right? Not sure id call that a growing presence at this point Seems strange to put that in time wise with reality TV and UFC.
When I was a kid there were a lot more fights and my school than I see at my kids schools now. I don’t think any of this is new. People have been disrespectful to each other for more than 30 years. We just get to see it easier now.
by Suliso Aristotle was already complaining about young people in his time having lost all respect for elders. It's an age old complaint of old people.
ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:21 am
Fans have been doing dumb stuff and brawling long before "reality shows and UFC." But will agree with the rest, especially alcohol. Sports fans can be pretty dumb. And I imagine it used to happen just as often, just no one had cell phones to instantly record and upload it.
I'd hazard a guess it actually happens a bit less now. In addition to knowing you can get recorded and caught more easily now and the least drunk in your crew maybe steering you away from these things, there's been less incidents it would seem at the stadiums. The on-site judges/courts have mostly disappeared I think because it's just less of that. At some sporting events they'd allowed more
Smartphones weren't around in the 80s and 90s, but regular TV cameras were. The more destructive stuff was caught by the local news all the time and we saw it, less stuff that happened in the stadium than nonsense occurring outside, but still, nothing to do with the advent of the smartphone.
I would also posit rising prices of alcohol (even accounting for inflation) at major sporting venues is another factor as to why I'd warrant fewer fights occur now.
by ponchi101
Suliso wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:51 am
Aristotle was already complaining about young people in his time having lost all respect for elders. It's an age old complaint of old people.
ti-amie wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 11:30 pm
I have no idea what started this brawl.
Mayeb it's just me, but wondering if this rises to the level of brawl. Seemed rather tame and a corny version of a fight. They got lucky no one involved knew how to fight I think, most places someone would've laid you out 30 seconds into this and been done with this nonsense if this was the level they were bringing.
Ha Ha so true re the level of "fighting". I laughed at the young men who were like "I want nothing to do with this" and made sure to stay out of range. Still, this is insane.
by ti-amie
ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:39 am
You realize WWE has been on TV for at least 35 years now right? Not sure id call that a growing presence at this point Seems strange to put that in time wise with reality TV and UFC.
When I was a kid there were a lot more fights and my school than I see at my kids schools now. I don’t think any of this is new. People have been disrespectful to each other for more than 30 years. We just get to see it easier now.
Actual fist fighting, of the "hold my coat" variety, is a lost art. Like Jazz said anyone who really knew how to fight would've put an end to this pretty quickly. WWE is tame by comparison to what it was 20 or more years ago. I agree about UFC though. Barbarism.
I think the level of disrespect between people has grown though. You see it in all the rage incidents taking place in stores and on airplanes.
Actual fist fighting, of the "hold my coat" variety, is a lost art. Like Jazz said anyone who really knew how to fight would've put an end to this pretty quickly. WWE is tame by comparison to what it was 20 or more years ago. I agree about UFC though. Barbarism.
...
by Deuce
Suliso wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:51 am
Aristotle was already complaining about young people in his time having lost all respect for elders. It's an age old complaint of old people.
Rather than 'old people', I'd say 'people who have observed and experienced life in different facets and elements'.
And, yes, respect for fellow humans has diminished rather noticeably over time. Not co-incidentally, materialism, greed and selfishness have steadily increased over time, as well.
I still say that in the past 30 year or so, the disrespect has accelerated. This can be seen in television (and now, streaming, too) - as TV is a reflection of society, just as society is a reflection of TV. It's a mutual influence.
by ptmcmahon Since becoming regulated I don’t know if I’d call UFC barbarism. It really is mixed martial arts now often and certainly much less barbaric than say plain ol boxing.
by Deuce
ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:38 am
Since becoming regulated I don’t know if I’d call UFC barbarism. It really is mixed martial arts now often and certainly much less barbaric than say plain ol boxing.
I completely disagree. Not that boxing is healthy - and there has certainly been corruption in boxing - but you don't hit the guy when he's down in boxing, for one. In UFC, it's just hitting after hitting after hitting. It IS barbaric.
UFC is also run by a complete asshole. Dana White is the same kind of character as Vince McMahon - both will do anything for a buck. Don King was bad - but these two guys are significantly worse. Both are no-class assholes. White has called various UFC fighters (essentially his employees) all kinds of vulgar names - he can't complete a sentence without it including vulgarity... and it's all done for ratings and money. Because, sadly, this garbage appeals to many people and helps to sell his barbaric product.
You also see several characters from both the WWE and UFC dying early - either via suicide or some other violent means. Some have murdered others (outside the ring). Several others have been in trouble with the law.
Not exactly organizations which exude class.
by ptmcmahon Have you watched any UFC? Yes some matches are largely "hitting" but many matches are not - lots of wrestling, jujitsu etc. I won't argue whether or not it's barbariac, but I will say it's less than boxing. For a numeric consideration look the number of deaths in each sport. MMA has 7 ever and 0 of those were in UFC. Boxing has more than that just since the last MMA death in 2016. If you consider MMA barbariac, boxing has to be at least as bad.
No argument about Dana White being an asshole.
WWE has tons of people dying early. Haven't seen it as much with UFC yet, although there are a few. I don't pay attention to boxing though, but I'm sure some ex-boxers have died as well. NFL may be the worst of many sports there with all the CTE related deaths.
Not sure why boxing is getting a free pass from you, unless because it's not as "new" as MMA?
by Deuce
ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:58 am
Have you watched any UFC? Yes some matches are largely "hitting" but many matches are not - lots of wrestling, jujitsu etc. I won't argue whether or not it's barbariac, but I will say it's less than boxing. For a numeric consideration look the number of deaths in each sport. MMA has 7 ever and 0 of those were in UFC. Boxing has more than that just since the last MMA death in 2016. If you consider MMA barbariac, boxing has to be at least as bad.
No argument about Dana White being an asshole.
WWE has tons of people dying early. Haven't seen it as much with UFC yet, although there are a few. I don't pay attention to boxing though, but I'm sure some ex-boxers have died as well. NFL may be the worst of many sports there with all the CTE related deaths.
Not sure why boxing is getting a free pass from you, unless because it's not as "new" as MMA?
I didn't say that boxing is healthy or safe. I simply said that UFC is worse.
I feel that, for all the corruption over the years, boxing is still viewed as being largely honorable and respectable. Yes, it has deteriorated over the years (part of what I mentioned earlier in that respect overall in society has deteriorated over the years). But - perhaps because of its long tradition - it is still considered a 'noble' sport by many. You don't hit people when they're down, low blows are not tolerated, etc.
UFC, by comparison, is much more akin to a street fight, where pretty much anything goes. There is more blood... people are hit repeatedly after they are down... and overall, I feel that it is based more on a foundation of disrespect than is boxing.
Because of these elements, I strongly believe that UFC has a much greater negative influence on kids - particularly teenagers - than boxing has. And that's a big thing for me (the effect on kids).
In terms of comparable deaths, I would venture that there are more deaths in boxing simply because more boxing takes place worldwide than UFC style fighting.
by ptmcmahon UFC is now heavily regulated and "everything does not go." Low blows are also penalized in UFC. People aren't repeatedly hit when they are down ... refs stop when opponents aren't defending themselves. There are very few matches with blood - however I will say when there is blood in UFC there is a LOT more than in boxing.
"What these researchers discovered was boxers are more likely to receive injuries that’ll affect their health in the long term. MMA fighters were shown to have less of a risk of receiving injuries that’ll affect their long term health. Just more of a risk from facial cuts and contusions in MMA than Boxing. The data they compiled was a 10-year study spanning from 2003 to 2013. Researching post-fight medical data from 1,181 MMA fighters and 550 boxers. Out of this research, it showed that 59.4% of MMA fighters received some sort of injury in their fight. Boxers in the research showed a 49.8% injury rate in their fights. This data shows you’re more likely to get hurt in MMA. However serious injury was higher in Boxing. Of the 550 boxers studied 7.1% of them were knocked out or lost consciousness. This compared to 4.2% of MMA fighters that were knocked out or lost consciousness."
So more people get hurt in MMA, but boxers have worse injuries. And a lot more boxers get knocked unconscious - pretty close to double. Not sure how that would make it "more noble" or "respectful."
It sounds to me like you may have watched one of the early UFC events 15-20 years ago and are assuming nothing has changed (anything went for the first couple of years, low blows were allowed back then for example)....when was the last time you watched a match or took notice of the rule changes and all the regulations? If you are unaware of current rules and regulations, you may not be the best judge of whether or not it is more barbaric than boxing.
by Deuce I unfortunately see highlights of UFC daily on sportscasts. I find it barbaric. Today.
I don't know the intricacies of the rules in UFC - but I know what I see with my own eyes. And I find it extreme and, yes, barbaric.
And with Dana White at the helm, you can bet your ass that it is made to be as sensational and attention-grabbing as possible - which, of course, leads us to less than humane treatment both inside and outside of the ring - or 'octagon'. It is primarily - and likely solely - viewed as a form of 'entertainment' by the boss, not as an 'art form', or even as a sport.
Might the study you mention include other forms of MMA, excluding the UFC?
Just wondering.
I'm also curious why you're making so much effort to defend UFC. Are you involved in it in some way (other than merely as a spectator)?
by Fastbackss Deuce, finding it barbaric but not knowing the nuances of it allows you to have an opinion of it but not to then throw stones in the guise of questions to others.
Ptc is going the heavy lifting here, and I appreciate the data used, but is 100% correct based on the studies.
UFC (and regulated MMA) does not allow traipsing in the spectrum of partial loss of consciousness. The official steps in immediately as soon as the person is partially incapacitated. It isn't as overt as boxing so it allows the participant to keep going, which is when the injuries come more readily.
Dana is a carnival barker. He doesn't cover up his political leanings, and also seems to "push" his fighters that do with extra publicity. He also grievously underpays his fighters. Estimate is they receive 15-20% (most sports leagues are closer to 50%).
This is why many "older" fighters are doing a boxing match for Triller. They are paying exceptionally well.
(And for the record, I like both. I actively followed UFC for 3 years but got out of it mainly because I wasn't as invested in the fighters. )
by ptmcmahon
Deuce wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 3:22 am
I unfortunately see highlights of UFC daily on sportscasts. I find it barbaric. Today.
I don't know the intricacies of the rules in UFC - but I know what I see with my own eyes. And I find it extreme and, yes, barbaric.
And with Dana White at the helm, you can bet your ass that it is made to be as sensational and attention-grabbing as possible - which, of course, leads us to less than humane treatment both inside and outside of the ring - or 'octagon'. It is primarily - and likely solely - viewed as a form of 'entertainment' by the boss, not as an 'art form', or even as a sport.
Might the study you mention include other forms of MMA, excluding the UFC?
Just wondering.
I'm also curious why you're making so much effort to defend UFC. Are you involved in it in some way (other than merely as a spectator)?
Nope, no MMA involvement other than as a spectator. When you see highlights are you only seeing highlights of knockouts and making your judgement on that? Just as a recent example, the last event I watched had 9 matches. 5 were judges decisions, 2 were technical knockouts (where the ref stopped fight because one person had the advantage from strikes, but there was no actual knockout), and 2 were submission finishes. Now I watched the event so I can't comment on what the highlights showed. But if all you are watching is the highlights and not the whole thing, I don't think that puts you in a fair position to judge. You certainly can't make comments on how "everything goes" during the matches if you just watch the highlights.
The equivalent would be if I watched no boxing at all, turned on highlights and saw the last few seconds of a fight and saw a knockout. That would lead me to thinking it's barbaric too.
My gut feeling is that boxing is ok in your book because it has been around longer and MMA is bad because it is newer. Using your words boxing is considered "noble" and has a "long tradition." The statistics show it has higher rates of deaths and long term injuries than MMA. And having watched both - and not just highlights of one - I don't see how people who watch both can consider MMA more barbariac (but sounds like you don't watch both.) Some matches are just punching - ie pretty much the same as boxing. Many matches are filled with wrestling, jujitsu etc. For example in the main event one person only landed 80 strikes in 25 minutes because they weren't trying to outbox/ko their opponent.
Really I want to know - if you don't watch it anything other than highlights, why do you think you get to decide MMA is more barbaric? If I had never seen a boxing match, I wouldn't feel ok to judge it.
(For full disclosure I do watch MUCH more MMA now than boxing.)
by Deuce I don't watch boxing or MMA or UFC. I did watch some boxing at one time - I was never a huge fan... but I'm old enough to remember the end of Ali's career... and to have seen some Leonard/Duran/Hagler/Hearns fights, etc.
But boxing entered the 'entertainment' domain much too profoundly for my liking... which brought further corruption to an already corrupted sport. I haven't watched it in years.
You seem to be playing with entities here. You alternate using 'UFC' and 'MMA' based on what you wish to project.
For the record, all of my comments are on UFC. Because that's all I've seen. I haven't seen more than a total of about 40 seconds of MMA that wasn't UFC (and that 40 seconds was in several different segments, not all at once).
As I understand it, MMA (Mixed Martial Arts) is describing the activity (just as as the word boxing does), and UFC is a 'brand' of MMA fighting. And so, UFC is to MMA as the WWE is to wrestling.
As I said, I'm commenting strictly on UFC, which to me is a barbaric circus. This is not surprising, given who runs it - just as WWE is an idiotic circus run by another asshole.
You didn't answer my question about whether the study(ies) you cite refers to the UFC, or to other MMA fighting. Because I believe there is a significant difference (just as there is an enormous difference between Olympic style wrestling and WWE wrestling).
No, I do not watch UFC fights. I have many other, better things to do with my time. And yes, I can indeed and legitimately classify it as barbaric based on what I have seen. Because even if every second that I don't see is NOT barbaric (which I don't believe could possibly be the case), the parts that I DO see most definitely fit my definition of barbarism.
As well, I fail to see how anyone can honestly consider anything that Dana White is involved with as being an 'art' - or a sport, even. He is all about entertainment and attention getting and and making as much money as possible at any cost. Perhaps he has done to MMA what Vince McMahon did to wrestling - that is, take a legitimate sport/art form and transform it through heavy manipulation and influence and sensationalism into 'entertainment'.
Can sports also be entertaining? Of course. I'm entertained by some tennis matches, some hockey and baseball games, etc. But when entertainment becomes the primary goal and end product, rather than fair competition, it can no longer be called a sport in my opinion. And the UFC is in that category.
I find it odd that the others who referred to UFC as being 'barbaric' in this thread have been completely silent apart from their initial offering that it's barbaric. If you feel the way you've expressed, support your perspective and enter the ensuing discussion, which you helped to create!
by ptmcmahon The study specifically said MMA so I would guess it’s a mix of UFC and other organizations. I would say despite who’s running it, UFC probably has a better overall reputation in terms of safety, following regulations etc. Smaller or independent leagues may be much more lax following regulations or having quality officiating.
And yes I do consider UFC a mixed martial “art”, sport etc. I don’t think the fact that the head of it is an asshole changes that. It’s the fighters I’m considering. Their boss being a jerk doesn’t change what they do. In the real world your job isn’t diminished just because your boss is a jerk.
And I’m still not questioning if you can think MMa/UFC is barbarism… I just don’t see how you can consider boxing ok too then. You saw the sad end of Ali’s career.. surely you’ve seen some Tyson fights or highlights. I don’t know how that isn’t consider barbaiac too.
As for why some others are silent… maybe they’ve learned not to argue with/against us
by Deuce
ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:13 am
The study specifically said MMA so I would guess it’s a mix of UFC and other organizations. I would say despite who’s running it, UFC probably has a better overall reputation in terms of safety, following regulations etc. Smaller or independent leagues may be much more lax following regulations or having quality officiating.
^ True enough that small, independent leagues might lack in the area of safety - boxing was and is the same... but I don't think that the UFC cares any more about safety than the WWE does. If a 'performer' is incapacitated, they are replaced. In both 'organizations', the performers are simply pawns in the overall game, or circus - entirely replaceable by another 'character'...
ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:13 am
And yes I do consider UFC a mixed martial “art”, sport etc. I don’t think the fact that the head of it is an asshole changes that. It’s the fighters I’m considering. Their boss being a jerk doesn’t change what they do. In the real world your job isn’t diminished just because your boss is a jerk.
^ It very much surprises me that this is your perspective. That Dana White is what he is COMPLETELY changes what the performers do - in a similar way that the writers and directors of a sitcom dictate what the actors do. Do you honestly not believe that Dana White plays a major role in determining the 'persona' of Connor McGregor, for instance? McGregor is likely inherently a jerk - but I'd bet you anything that Dana White has played a significant role in telling him how to misbehave. And McGregor is certainly not the only UFC fighter whose character/behaviour is vulgar, violent, and controversial - he's just the most extreme. Many other UFC performers also do whatever they can to gain media attention - both inside and outside of the ring. And it is overall scripted by Dana White.
I also believe that the majority of UFC fights are fixed. Because Dana White is a con artist and dishonest manipulator - and is more than capable, as the head of UFC and with the personality he possesses, of deciding which result will bring him and his organization the most attention and money.
(And, yes, I am aware that fixing fights in boxing is also rampant.)
ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:13 am
And I’m still not questioning if you can think MMa/UFC is barbarism… I just don’t see how you can consider boxing ok too then. You saw the sad end of Ali’s career.. surely you’ve seen some Tyson fights or highlights. I don’t know how that isn’t consider barbaiac too.
^ I simply view boxing as being more tame/controlled. UFC is a straight out street fight. I see little to no difference between a typical street fight and the UFC junk. In boxing, there is no tripping allowed, no takedowns, no hitting a person while he's down, no hidden hair pulling or eye gouging, etc.... it's just stand-up, toe-to-toe fighting. While there may be some rules guiding UFC, it seems to me that much more is permitted in UFC than is permitted in boxing. Boxing is very restrictive in comparison.
That said, as I mentioned previously, I am not a boxing fan, and do not watch it now. I am simply commenting on it because you brought boxing into the discussion, comparing it to UFC, and asked me for my thoughts about it.
I never wondered this previous to this discussion, but, given your username, are you perhaps related in some way to Vince? Is he the 'crazy uncle' in your family?
by ptmcmahon
Deuce wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:47 am
^ It very much surprises me that this is your perspective. That Dana White is what he is COMPLETELY changes what the performers do - in a similar way that the writers and directors of a sitcom dictate what the actors do. Do you honestly not believe that Dana White plays a major role in determining the 'persona' of Connor McGregor, for instance? McGregor is likely inherently a jerk - but I'd bet you anything that Dana White has played a significant role in telling him how to misbehave. And McGregor is certainly not the only UFC fighter whose character/behaviour is vulgar, violent, and controversial - he's just the most extreme. Many other UFC performers also do whatever they can to gain media attention - both inside and outside of the ring. And it is overall scripted by Dana White.
Please don't use Conor as an example of how MMA fighters act/behave. That would be like saying all boxers bite each other because I saw Mike Tyson do it. Conor is an egotistical maniac and would be wherever he is. He and Dana White belong together.
I disagree that Dana White plays a role in the persona of many UFC fighters (although I won't say none ... I'm sure it does for a few though.) But the majority of them seem to good people who love fighting and are underpaid grossly for the amount of money UFC is raking in. For most of them, if they are mentioning Dana White at all, it's post match saying "Dana, please give me the bonus tonight, I could really use the money." Having a jerk boss doesn't automatically make you a jerk. As someone who sometimes sees 20-30 MMA matches a month I would say I'm a better judge of this than someone who only sees highlights. Sports news of course is going to focus on people like Conor. So in turn I would be surprised that you would think you are a better judge of MMA fighters personalities than me.
Deuce wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:47 am
I also believe that the majority of UFC fights are fixed. Because Dana White is a con artist and dishonest manipulator - and is more than capable, as the head of UFC and with the personality he possesses, of deciding which result will bring him and his organization the most attention and money.
(And, yes, I am aware that fixing fights in boxing is also rampant.)
Do you have any evidence of this? I can't remember seeing or hearing anything at all about this. There have been many matches where there was a big upset where the person bringing the most attention loses. Conor for example has 1 win in his last 4 fights and has 1 win since 2016. If this was all fixed to make the person who would bring attention wins I'm sure he would have more than this. If you have no evidence than your are basing your judgment of UFC/MMA on an opinion you have decided upon with no evidence at all....which I think means it has no creditability.
Deuce wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:47 am
^ I simply view boxing as being more tame/controlled. UFC is a straight out street fight. I see little to no difference between a typical street fight and the UFC junk. In boxing, there is no tripping allowed, no takedowns, no hitting a person while he's down, no hidden hair pulling or eye gouging, etc.... it's just stand-up, toe-to-toe fighting. While there may be some rules guiding UFC, it seems to me that much more is permitted in UFC than is permitted in boxing. Boxing is very restrictive in comparison.
That said, as I mentioned previously, I am not a boxing fan, and do not watch it now. I am simply commenting on it because you brought boxing into the discussion, comparing it to UFC, and asked me for my thoughts about it.
Stop saying there is hair pulling, low blows, eye gouging in UFC/MMA. If any of that happens, fighters are penalized. None of that is allowed. I wouldn't say "boxing is barbariac" because they allow people to pull hair - because they do not. So you can't use that argument against MMA/UFC either.
As for tripping, takedowns etc - if you don't like that then you must consider Tae Kwan Do, Jujistsu, Amateur Wrestling all barbaric too then right? I personally consider that more of an "art" and less barbaric than just stand up toe-to-toe fighting where the goal is just to hit the other person as hard or as much as possible. So to be consistent you must not like those martial arts either.
Deuce wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:47 am
I never wondered this previous to this discussion, but, given your username, are you perhaps related in some way to Vince? Is he the 'crazy uncle' in your family?
I have called him Uncle Vince many times...although I ... assume .. we aren't closely related. (It would explain a lot.) Personally I was always hoping Ed was secretly my grandfather and was going to show up with a cheque one day.
by ti-amie I said UFC is barbaric and I didn't see any reason to jump back in since the discussion was doing nothing to disprove my point.
I grew up watching 15 round heavyweight boxing matches with my father and I agree that boxing became too much "entertainment". I also used to watch ECW (Extreme Championship Wrestling") with Sabu, the Dudleys, and Rob van Damm. I look back at some of the video on YouTube and cringe. UFC, which I don't watch, grew out of that tradition after McMahon bought ECW and changed it to entertainment. UFC walks right up to the door ECW held ajar and walks through it.
Boxing was violent though. I didn't see the Emile Griffith vs Benny Paret fight where Paret took a brutal beating
"The fight was both notable and controversial for the punishment Paret took in the ring at the hands of Griffith which led to his loss by knockout in round 12 of a scheduled 15 rounds. Paret died in the hospital of his injuries 10 days later." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Par ... ys%20later.
The night boxer Emile Griffith answered gay taunts with a deadly cortege of punches
In the early 1960s it was impossible to believe that any sporting hero could be a homosexual. This abridged extract of Donald McRae’s new book A Man’s World: The Double Life of Emile Griffith tells of a fight with terrible consequences
Benny Paret lies helpless against ropes as the flailing fists of Emile Griffith batter him into unconsciousness during 12th round of their welterweight championship fight in 1962, with referee Ruby Goldstein poised to move in. Photograph: New York Daily News Archive/NY Daily News via Getty Images
Donald McRae
@donaldgmcrae
Thu 10 Sep 2015 13.43 BST
The boxer and his boyfriend sat together on a train hurtling along the New York subway. Emile Griffith had pulled a hat down over his eyes. He was not in the mood to make eye contact with anyone just before the Saturday morning weigh-in for his world title fight that night, 24 March 1962, at Madison Square Garden. It would be the third time he’d face his bitter rival Benny “Kid” Paret – in a career which would eventually see him become one of the finest welterweight champions in history.
Griffith went on to fight 337 world championship rounds – 69 more than Muhammad Ali. But his place in the pantheon would be darkened forever by his tragic trilogy against Paret.
He had lost his world title to Paret seven months previously. The Cuban had upset Griffith at the weigh-in to that bout by taunting him as a maricón [eff word.] In boxing’s macho world there could be no greater insult – especially when it was an open secret that Griffith was “different”. It was not just that he spoke of his pleasure in designing pretty bonnets for ladies or could discuss the latest pillbox hat worn by Jackie Kennedy outside the White House.
Emile Griffith was gay at a time when homosexuality was derided as a disease, condemned as a sin and classified as a crime. Even consensual sex between two adult men could result in their imprisonment. Homosexuality was a criminal act in every state of America – apart from Illinois. The American Medical Association, meanwhile, persisted in classifying homosexuality as a “psychiatric disorder”.
The renowned fighter visited gay bars most weekends – but he found it impossible to come out with a public statement about his sexual preference. It was imperative to bury the truth because a gay boxer was an unimaginable phrase. In the early 1960s the subject was not only taboo; it was impossible to believe that any sporting hero, a man’s man, could be a homosexual.
To my knowledge nothing like this has happened since. There have been rumors about other boxers but all are alive and no one is said to have died at their hands.
by dmforever
ti-amie wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:38 pm
I said UFC is barbaric and I didn't see any reason to jump back in since the discussion was doing nothing to disprove my point.
I grew up watching 15 round heavyweight boxing matches with my father and I agree that boxing became too much "entertainment". I also used to watch ECW (Extreme Championship Wrestling") with Sabu, the Dudleys, and Rob van Damm. I look back at some of the video on YouTube and cringe. UFC, which I don't watch, grew out of that tradition after McMahon bought ECW and changed it to entertainment. UFC walks right up to the door ECW held ajar and walks through it.
Boxing was violent though. I didn't see the Emile Griffith vs Benny Paret fight where Paret took a brutal beating
"The fight was both notable and controversial for the punishment Paret took in the ring at the hands of Griffith which led to his loss by knockout in round 12 of a scheduled 15 rounds. Paret died in the hospital of his injuries 10 days later." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Par ... ys%20later.
The night boxer Emile Griffith answered gay taunts with a deadly cortege of punches
In the early 1960s it was impossible to believe that any sporting hero could be a homosexual. This abridged extract of Donald McRae’s new book A Man’s World: The Double Life of Emile Griffith tells of a fight with terrible consequences
Benny Paret lies helpless against ropes as the flailing fists of Emile Griffith batter him into unconsciousness during 12th round of their welterweight championship fight in 1962, with referee Ruby Goldstein poised to move in. Photograph: New York Daily News Archive/NY Daily News via Getty Images
Donald McRae
@donaldgmcrae
Thu 10 Sep 2015 13.43 BST
The boxer and his boyfriend sat together on a train hurtling along the New York subway. Emile Griffith had pulled a hat down over his eyes. He was not in the mood to make eye contact with anyone just before the Saturday morning weigh-in for his world title fight that night, 24 March 1962, at Madison Square Garden. It would be the third time he’d face his bitter rival Benny “Kid” Paret – in a career which would eventually see him become one of the finest welterweight champions in history.
Griffith went on to fight 337 world championship rounds – 69 more than Muhammad Ali. But his place in the pantheon would be darkened forever by his tragic trilogy against Paret.
He had lost his world title to Paret seven months previously. The Cuban had upset Griffith at the weigh-in to that bout by taunting him as a maricón [eff word.] In boxing’s macho world there could be no greater insult – especially when it was an open secret that Griffith was “different”. It was not just that he spoke of his pleasure in designing pretty bonnets for ladies or could discuss the latest pillbox hat worn by Jackie Kennedy outside the White House.
Emile Griffith was gay at a time when homosexuality was derided as a disease, condemned as a sin and classified as a crime. Even consensual sex between two adult men could result in their imprisonment. Homosexuality was a criminal act in every state of America – apart from Illinois. The American Medical Association, meanwhile, persisted in classifying homosexuality as a “psychiatric disorder”.
The renowned fighter visited gay bars most weekends – but he found it impossible to come out with a public statement about his sexual preference. It was imperative to bury the truth because a gay boxer was an unimaginable phrase. In the early 1960s the subject was not only taboo; it was impossible to believe that any sporting hero, a man’s man, could be a homosexual.
To my knowledge nothing like this has happened since. There have been rumors about other boxers but all are alive and no one is said to have died at their hands.
Thanks for this. II didn't know about this at all. I"m not a boxing or UFC fan, but I found this interesting.
Deuce wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:47 am
^ It very much surprises me that this is your perspective. That Dana White is what he is COMPLETELY changes what the performers do - in a similar way that the writers and directors of a sitcom dictate what the actors do. Do you honestly not believe that Dana White plays a major role in determining the 'persona' of Connor McGregor, for instance? McGregor is likely inherently a jerk - but I'd bet you anything that Dana White has played a significant role in telling him how to misbehave. And McGregor is certainly not the only UFC fighter whose character/behaviour is vulgar, violent, and controversial - he's just the most extreme. Many other UFC performers also do whatever they can to gain media attention - both inside and outside of the ring. And it is overall scripted by Dana White.
Please don't use Conor as an example of how MMA fighters act/behave. That would be like saying all boxers bite each other because I saw Mike Tyson do it. Conor is an egotistical maniac and would be wherever he is. He and Dana White belong together.
I disagree that Dana White plays a role in the persona of many UFC fighters (although I won't say none ... I'm sure it does for a few though.) But the majority of them seem to good people who love fighting and are underpaid grossly for the amount of money UFC is raking in. For most of them, if they are mentioning Dana White at all, it's post match saying "Dana, please give me the bonus tonight, I could really use the money." Having a jerk boss doesn't automatically make you a jerk. As someone who sometimes sees 20-30 MMA matches a month I would say I'm a better judge of this than someone who only sees highlights. Sports news of course is going to focus on people like Conor. So in turn I would be surprised that you would think you are a better judge of MMA fighters personalities than me.
^ Where did I state that I'm a "better judge of MMA fighters" than you? I stated no such thing, and inferring I did is pure manipulation.
One could easily argue, though, that you are far too biased in favour of UFC to objectively judge. Your entire purpose in this discussion is to defend the UFC because you are a big fan of it. You have invested a good amount of your time into watching it.
It could be equally argued that my angle is more objective - I have no investment in the UFC at all - I have nothing to gain by criticizing it - I'm simply giving my honest opinion on it.
Secondly, the only thing I said about MMA is that I know virtually nothing about it other than the 40 seconds I've seen of it. All my comments are on UFC, not on MMA generally - and I believe there is a significant distinction to be made between the two (as there is between wrestling and WWE).
Your continued interchanging of MMA and UFC whenever convenient in order to support your agenda isn't appreciated. As I've stated several times now, I don't see the two as being in the same ball park in relation to this discussion. I've told you that ALL my comments are on UFC, which is an 'entertainment spectacle', and that I know virtually nothing about MMA outside of the UFC - yet you insist on still bringing up MMA over and over...
Do you also repeatedly bring up Olympic wrestling in discussions about the WWE?
Deuce wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:47 am
I also believe that the majority of UFC fights are fixed. Because Dana White is a con artist and dishonest manipulator - and is more than capable, as the head of UFC and with the personality he possesses, of deciding which result will bring him and his organization the most attention and money.
(And, yes, I am aware that fixing fights in boxing is also rampant.)
ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:11 pm
Do you have any evidence of this? I can't remember seeing or hearing anything at all about this. There have been many matches where there was a big upset where the person bringing the most attention loses. Conor for example has 1 win in his last 4 fights and has 1 win since 2016. If this was all fixed to make the person who would bring attention wins I'm sure he would have more than this. If you have no evidence than your are basing your judgment of UFC/MMA on an opinion you have decided upon with no evidence at all....which I think means it has no creditability.
^ Seriously?!?
This seems to have struck a particular chord with you.
Asking for 'evidence' is ridiculous, of course. And to infer that I'm one of the only people on the planet who believe that UFC fights are fixed is equally ridiculous. Come on, please be serious. If you follow UFC as closely as you claim to, you know very well that there have been, and continue to be, many, many accusations of fight fixing within it - from fans, from outsiders, from the media, and even from its own performers (whom you refer to as 'fighters'). A simple google search will bring up many examples of this.
(Here - I'll even help... https://www.google.com/search?q=ufc%20fixed%20fights )
Also, as I stated, Dana White is entirely capable of fixing fights. Do you think he's 'too honest' to do that? Do you think he's 'too good a person' to do that? Do you think his conscience would stop him from doing that? The guy is a shady used car salesman; a total con artist and selfish manipulator, among other undesirable things. Of course he is entirely capable of fixing fights if he determined it was to his benefit and advantage in some way - and, as the head of the outfit, he could easily decide that it will be done.
As for your example of Conor McGregor losing fights - come on, man... McGregor has been considered one of the top performers in the UFC, and perhaps even the 'best' - so it's rather obvious that the UFC will get considerably MORE attention if McGregor loses than if he wins. And on top of that, his losing a fight makes it easier for him to 'act out' and be even more of a jackass - which, in turn, leads to more attention for the UFC, more money, etc.
It's all just a big show - to believe it's not that, and that it is legitimate sport, is to be very gullible.
Deuce wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:47 am
^ I simply view boxing as being more tame/controlled. UFC is a straight out street fight. I see little to no difference between a typical street fight and the UFC junk. In boxing, there is no tripping allowed, no takedowns, no hitting a person while he's down, no hidden hair pulling or eye gouging, etc.... it's just stand-up, toe-to-toe fighting. While there may be some rules guiding UFC, it seems to me that much more is permitted in UFC than is permitted in boxing. Boxing is very restrictive in comparison.
That said, as I mentioned previously, I am not a boxing fan, and do not watch it now. I am simply commenting on it because you brought boxing into the discussion, comparing it to UFC, and asked me for my thoughts about it.
ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:11 pm
Stop saying there is hair pulling, low blows, eye gouging in UFC/MMA. If any of that happens, fighters are penalized. None of that is allowed. I wouldn't say "boxing is barbariac" because they allow people to pull hair - because they do not. So you can't use that argument against MMA/UFC either.
^ In UFC, it is much easier to pull hair and gouge eyes than it is in boxing. It's pretty much impossible in boxing A) because of the restrictiveness of the gloves, and B) because the boxers are never on top of each other. In UFC, it's easy to conceal doing stuff like that from the referee (while still being able to be seen by the TV cameras, of course - which is another thing I believe is likely pre-arranged).
ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:11 pm
As for tripping, takedowns etc - if you don't like that then you must consider Tae Kwan Do, Jujistsu, Amateur Wrestling all barbaric too then right? I personally consider that more of an "art" and less barbaric than just stand up toe-to-toe fighting where the goal is just to hit the other person as hard or as much as possible. So to be consistent you must not like those martial arts either.
^ This is going to absolutely ridiculous lengths to defend your beloved UFC.
Yes, there are take-downs in Taekwondo, Jiu Jitsu, amateur wrestling, etc. And once the take down is accomplished, that's it - it's done - they stop and re-set. They don't bash each other in the face repeatedly with fists and elbows after taking them down, as is done routinely in UFC.
I don't recall seeing much - if any - blood in real wrestling or Taekwondo and other related disciplines, either.
I think you know very well that to compare the two is foolish. One is a chaotic circus done for the primary purpose of 'entertainment', and the others are known worldwide for their extremely high level of respect for the opponent and for their personal discipline. To compare these to the UFC is beyond comparing apples to oranges - it's comparing apples to artificially flavoured orange Jello.
by Fastbackss Ptc is going to ridiculous lengths?
You have gone to just as ridiculous lengths to project your opinion. Ptc has been more than fair, without getting animated, to try and present the opposing opinion.
This board is supposed to allow for that.
This isn't the first time that someone has had an opposing opinion and you have engaged them in a protracted "discussion" where their opinion is useless to you.
Ptc has merely presented the opposing viewpoint. You're entitled to have one, and so is Ptc.
Let it go already.
by ptmcmahon Yes I'm done here. I told myself not to get into discussions with Deuce (outside of curling ) before and broke my own rule. Your problems with MMA seem to be summed up by:
- You believe fights are fixed even though there is nothing more than accusations of it. I've watched hundreds of fight and never thought anything was fixed unless the judges are fixing it - and what I see is very weird scoring that would be a weird way to try to fix fights. I'd love to see any proof of this at all...but there is none.
- All fighters are jerks because their boss is. You give one example of a jerk because he's the one on the news most often, but have never heard of any other examples. Pro tip - add Jon Jones to your repertoire next time discussing with someone, he's had all kinds of legal issues as well
- You repeatedly talk about low blows, hair gouging, and hair pulling. None of that is allowed, and is penalized.
- You don't like takedowns in MMA, but it is ok in other sports because they can't also "bash people in the face" after, and there is no blood.
- Boxing is ok even though you can "bash people in the face" and there is blood.
I use MMA and UFC terms interchangeably because UFC is just a MMA organization. Any time watching UFC, highlights or otherwise, is time you've watched MMA. You know WWE and Olympic wrestling are not remotely the same thing so no I wouldn't bring one up discussing the other.
I know you will need to have the last word so you can reply, but I'm done. I've defended UFC/MMA because I don't like people seeing people say something I enjoy is bad but use all kinds of false information to make it look bad. I wouldn't come to this board and say "Tennis is horrible because every match is fixed and everyone is a big jerk because I watched a few highlights of Kyrgios...but none of you get to defend tennis because you love watching it. My opinion is objective and fans are too biased to defend it."
by Deuce
Fastbackss wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:25 am
Ptc is going to ridiculous lengths?
You have gone to just as ridiculous lengths to project your opinion. Ptc has been more than fair, without getting animated, to try and present the opposing opinion.
This board is supposed to allow for that.
This isn't the first time that someone has had an opposing opinion and you have engaged them in a protracted "discussion" where their opinion is useless to you.
Ptc has merely presented the opposing viewpoint. You're entitled to have one, and so is Ptc.
Let it go already.
^ You've already pronounced your position on the matter - and so it is no surprise that you support pt, as his position is the same as yours. Quite predictable.
I wonder why you defend pt's right to defend his position in the manner he sees fit, but essentially tell me that I don't have the same right to defend mine in the way I see fit.
I never told pt - or anyone else - to stop. It requires two people to discuss/debate a subject - please don't make it out like I'm the one person who insisted on continuing this - the fact is that I am but one of two equal participants (three if we include you). When I feel strongly about a subject, I'll usually discuss it for as long as the other party wishes to. Some people call this kind of passion a virtue. You do not. So be it.
ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 1:10 pm
Yes I'm done here. Apparently, you're far from 'done here', as the below rather clearly indicates. I told myself not to get into discussions with Deuce (outside of curling ) before and broke my own rule. Your problems with MMA seem to be summed up by: For the umpteenth time, I have no comment on MMA. I am commenting solely on UFC. I see a significant distinction between the two which I've already described several times.
- You believe fights are fixed even though there is nothing more than accusations of it. I've watched hundreds of fight and never thought anything was fixed unless the judges are fixing it - and what I see is very weird scoring that would be a weird way to try to fix fights. I'd love to see any proof of this at all...but there is none. Most people know that where there's smoke, there's fire. With the large number of accusations of fight fixing in UFC, coming from many different areas and directions, it takes quite a voluntary effort to say that there is definitely no fight fixing. Methinks you cannot see the forest for the trees.
- All fighters are jerks because their boss is. You give one example of a jerk because he's the one on the news most often, but have never heard of any other examples. Pro tip - add Jon Jones to your repertoire next time discussing with someone, he's had all kinds of legal issues as well. No - I did state that several other fighters have acted out violently, rudely, classlessly, and have had legal problems. I may not recall their names, but that's simply because their names are irrelevant to me. The fact that they represent the UFC is what is relevant. If you're going to respond to my posts - and even summarize them with your own slant! - at least read my posts properly before you do so, please.
- You repeatedly talk about low blows, hair gouging, and hair pulling. None of that is allowed, and is penalized. Yet it still happens. Hey - it makes for good for TV...
- You don't like takedowns in MMA, but it is ok in other sports because they can't also "bash people in the face" after, and there is no blood. When you compare apples to artificially flavoured orange Jello in order to further your agenda, I will call you on it.
- Boxing is ok even though you can "bash people in the face" and there is blood. Once again, you are manipulating and misrepresenting my comments - which seems to be a habit with you in your (desperate) attempt to defend your beloved UFC. I never said, wrote, or even implied, that 'boxing is ok'. You brought boxing into the discussion, and asked me to compare it to UFC. I did so to the best of my ability, while at the same time saying that I was never a boxing fan, that I watched a few fights many years ago, and have not watched it for years.
I use MMA and UFC terms interchangeably because UFC is just a MMA organization. Any time watching UFC, highlights or otherwise, is time you've watched MMA. You know WWE and Olympic wrestling are not remotely the same thing so no I wouldn't bring one up discussing the other. I disagree. To me, UFC is to MMA as the WWE is to wrestling. Once again, the WWE and UFC are very primarily an 'entertainment spectacle' - a 'bastardization' of sport, if you will, whose main aim is not to determine who is the better at his craft, but is rather to do what it takes to gain as much attention and make as much money as possible.
I know you will need to have the last word so you can reply, but I'm done. Nope - you're still not done... I've defended UFC/MMA because I don't like people seeing people say something I enjoy is bad but use all kinds of false information to make it look bad. Now you're essentially saying that my opinion is false. That's rather desperate of you. What you say is "false information" are things I have seen and formed an opinion on. Just because you disagree in no way makes anything I say "false". I wouldn't come to this board and say "Tennis is horrible because every match is fixed and everyone is a big jerk because I watched a few highlights of Kyrgios...but none of you get to defend tennis because you love watching it. My opinion is objective and fans are too biased to defend it." I am not basing my opinion of UFC on Conor McGregor alone, quite obviously (and previously stated). As far as match fixing in the UFC goes, I am far, far, far from alone in possessing this view - again, quite obviously. Bury your head in the sand to all of the accusations if you like - that is your right... but, as I said, most people know that where there is smoke, there is fire. And then there's Dana White's character - the man who has the power to decide whether or not to fix matches is a con artist and historical manipulator. But, hey - I've said all this already.
And, by the way, McGregor makes Kyrgios look like a Saint.
by Fastbackss Because you repeated the same positions even after Ptc gave you examples to the contrary.
And yes, you didn't say to stop.
But you expressed a complete unwillingness (in my opinion) to even consider what Ptc was mentioning. You were ready with your canned responses.
I am surprised it wasn't referred to as human cockfighting...
by Deuce
Fastbackss wrote: ↑Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:54 pm
Because you repeated the same positions even after Ptc gave you examples to the contrary.
And yes, you didn't say to stop.
But you expressed a complete unwillingness (in my opinion) to even consider what Ptc was mentioning. You were ready with your canned responses.
I am surprised it wasn't referred to as human cockfighting...
If I did what you claim, pt did precisely the same. Once again, it takes two to tango, discuss, debate, etc.
That you 'blame' me only is not only inaccurate, but also very likely a reflection that your position on the subject of UFC is the same as pt's - and so you take 'his side', though we were both very obviously equally involved in the discussion/debate.
Now that I've had my fair opportunity at rebuttal after you initially addressed me, as you have now turned the discussion to be no longer about sport, which is the topic of this thread, but instead to be about ME and various methods of discussion/debate, I'd be willing to continue this with you via private messages if you wish to do so. I have no real desire to do so myself, and so will not initiate - but I will engage if you wish to.
by JazzNU F1 had a race in the US and it had a partnership with the NBA for the 75th Celebration. First one is the meme in case you can't tell the difference in the one with 3. Yes, in the undoctored photo, Shaq is taller than Lewis Hamilton standing on a podium.
by ponchi101 And Hamilton is not short.
I once stood next to one of those cardboard cutouts of Shaq. He is truly a monster.
by Fastbackss The Shaq thing was funny especially in that he rolled out in a vintage convertible.
PS - Serena was also at the race. She too is taller than Lewis (who is short, which I can say as someone who is diminutive in stature)
by Suliso Hamilton is listed at 5'7". Diminutive or just short for you to decide
by JazzNU My knowledge of the interior of a race car is genuinely based off of Days of Thunder and little else, but I think racing is a bit like jockeys in horse racing where bigger and taller doesn't work great for fitting in the car and getting the fastest speed. I would guess given the style of the car, F1 would make this even more pronounced.
by ptmcmahon
Suliso wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:11 pm
Hamilton is listed at 5'7". Diminutive or just short for you to decide
As per google, two inches shorter than the average British man
by ponchi101
JazzNU wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:40 pm
My knowledge of the interior of a race car is genuinely based off of Days of Thunder and little else, but I think racing is a bit like jockeys in horse racing where bigger and taller doesn't work great for fitting in the car and getting the fastest speed. I would guess given the style of the car, F1 would make this even more pronounced.
Indeed it helps, as any kilogram saved on a F1 means something.
But the cockpits of F1 cars are custom built for the driver. You will never see a 6'6" F1 driver, but it is not so dependant.
Right next to this lovely chart above, they should post a chart like the ones below - and mention something about priorities...
by ti-amie I think the messes re vaccination surrounding Irving and Rodgers shows what an insulated world pro athletes live in. As children they're exempt from the rules that apply to others including siblings because they're "special", "talented", or whatever excuse is given to keep them out of the world of normal children and later adults. These same athletes wouldn't hesitate to inject themselves with anything that will ease pain before a game with no idea what is in the injections they're taking. It's always shocking to them when real world rules are suddenly applied to them.
I also wonder if there was a source for NFL fans to go to and check to see who the players are in the non vaccinated protocol?
by ti-amie
by ti-amie
by JazzNU This is tonight FYI
by skatingfan More importantly:
by ptmcmahon Yes we could really use a win tonight (I may even go watch the second half.) All these draws could come back to bite us...although some of those were very good draws, especially vs Mexico.
If Mexico win tonight, they would pretty much have one of the spots sewn up.
And Honduras is up 2-0 on Panama which is doing both our countries a huge favour with Panama sitting in 4th right now.
by ptmcmahon Well I jinxed Honduras pretty good… but otherwise the night went well for us.
Tight four way race now...would've been nice if Honduras could hang on for us.
Tuesdays important games: Us vs Jamiaca, Canada vs Mexico, and Panama vs El Salvador, and then we're off until January.
by ti-amie
Formula 1
·
This morning
Lewis Hamilton disqualified, Max Verstappen fined 50,000 euros ahead of São Paulo Grand Prix
The Championship leaders were both handed penalties on Saturday by the race stewards. Hamilton, who was accused of drag reduction system (DRS) tampering, has been disqualified from Friday's qualifying session over rear wing infringement just a day before the São Paulo Grand Prix, BBC reports. Verstappen was fined 50,000 euros for touching Hamilton's car in parc ferme but will still be able to race, says ESPN. Keep it here for the latest.
Photo via @maisfutebol
by JazzNU
by JazzNU
by ti-amie Wow. Is it finished? Did he win?
by ptmcmahon Looks like he finished fifth.
by ponchi101 He finished fifth in THE SPRINT RACE. That is the qualifying for the real GP, which is tomorrow.
Also, he will start five places back, because MB had to replace his engine. No big deal, as a new engine will have more power. It will boil down to the car, as it always does in F1.
by JazzNU Yes, it was the sprint as the hashtags indicate, doesn't make it any less impressive. Everyone is praising his performance, it was a Master Class. Other teams are taking the time to talk about how special it was.
by Fastbackss I am so mad that I had the start time of the Sprint race wrong by one hour.
by ti-amie
by ti-amie
by ti-amie
by ti-amie
by Fastbackss I see Alfa Romeo has hired the first full time Chinese driver.
Interesting timing given what we have been discussing RE: tennis...
by Deuce
Fastbackss wrote: ↑Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:16 am
I see Alfa Romeo has hired the first full time Chinese driver.
Interesting timing given what we have been discussing RE: tennis...
Well... the word is that he comes in with a significant amount of sponsorship money. So did Alfa hire him, or did he hire Alfa?
It's sad that money often decides which drivers are given an opportunity in F1 these days. These 'pay drivers', as they are called, are all good drivers - and I think that Zhou will be good in F1 if he's got a decent car to drive... but there are other drivers who deserve a chance in F1 before these 'pay drivers' do, because they've shown more ability. That they get overlooked simply because they don't have a bunch of sponsorship money is not right.
by ponchi101
Fastbackss wrote: ↑Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:16 am
I see Alfa Romeo has hired the first full time Chinese driver.
Interesting timing given what we have been discussing RE: tennis...
In F1, the teams do not "hire" drivers. It is well known that the driver has to bring in some sponsors, and not minor ones; F1 does not go for small potatoes.
Venezuela had one good driver: Pastor Maldonado. He was good enough to win one GP, with the Williams team. Why was he hired? He brought in a sponsorship from PDVSA, our national oil company. The moment PDVSA dropped the sponsorship, he was dropped too.
Just watch which sponsor this driver will bring in. Being China, he should have a very good one behind him.
by ti-amie A bit off topic but one of the reasons being given by those in support of tennis, specifically the WTA, not drop China is because of the difference in money China pays participants in the YEC. They feel the players will go for the dough rather than what everyone is seeing and enjoying from Guadalajara.
by Suliso Are we confident China will want to be back full force in tennis sponsorship once the pandemic is over whenever that might be? That country seems to be turning inwards again as it has often done in its long history.
by ponchi101 Interesting question, but China wants to project its power. They can split into two societies. They do have 400MM people that are middle class (and upper), and the rest still linger. I don't see them dropping the MS1000 they have, and they have been successful in the WTA.
by ti-amie The one thing tennis people keep saying over and over is that unlike next to no one turning up for the events in Asia here the players have have been greeted by enthusiastic, knowledgable fans and that in turn has made this the most enjoyable YEC since the ones that took place in Turkey. The WTA has a lot to think about.
by Deuce Watching Sakkari - Kontaveit... but also watching Mexico - Canada soccer game, being played on a frozen field in Edmonton, where the air temperature is minus 10 Celcius (14 degrees Fahrenheit).
It'll be interesting to see how the Mexican team handles the conditions, which are obviously quite foreign to them.
Some Mexican fans in the stands are wearing sombreros, which are of very limited practicality in temperatures below freezing.
by Fastbackss Cable here not showing the soccer game, regretfully, so stuck watching guadalajara
by ptmcmahon Wow...now 2-0 for Canada... what a win this would be. Love the backdrop of the snow.
The funny thing is even with this win - we'd be first in the table, but only two points clear of 4th (only top 3 automatically qualify - team 4 goes to a play-in series.) So even with a win, still lots of work left to do next year.
by ti-amie
by ti-amie In English on Canadian TV
by Deuce Canada won 2-1, but I can't be a proud Canadian...
I cannot understand how anyone can take the sport of soccer seriously. Every 10 minutes, it looks like a player is on the verge of dying. The fake injuries are absolutely pathetic (and Canada was doing it more than Mexico was).
I watch a soccer game about once every 5 years. And every single time I watch a game, I'm disgusted by what I see. A dishonest sport like this can't - and shouldn't - be taken seriously.
I can't respect a sport which so obviously doesn't respect itself.
by ptmcmahon I enjoyed the game in spite of that silliness... but I can't disagree. I'll usually watch as much of the World Cup as I can, and usually most of Euro, but it's one of the main reasons I can't watch much more than that.
I laughed when they made a huge deal about one of the players subbing off because they had a slight cut and a tiny bid of blood as if it was some kind of horrific injury
by ti-amie
ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:22 am
I enjoyed the game in spite of that silliness... but I can't disagree. I'll usually watch as much of the World Cup as I can, and usually most of Euro, but it's one of the main reasons I can't watch much more than that.
I laughed when they made a huge deal about one of the players subbing off because they had a slight cut and a tiny bid of blood as if it was some kind of horrific injury
There was blood? Then it was a horrific injury. When I see a player drop to the ground as if he's been shot I look for blood. If there isn't any it's no surprise to see him running at full speed down the field two minutes later. I just go with it.
by Suliso There are sometimes really bad injuries which in the first seconds didn't look much like anything.
by ti-amie
Suliso wrote: ↑Wed Nov 17, 2021 10:48 pm
There are sometimes really bad injuries which in the first seconds didn't look much like anything.
This is also true.
by Deuce I don't believe that the Canadian player who was bleeding from a cut on his leg was one of the ones who was pretending to be on the verge of death (I may be wrong about that, as I only saw him coming out of the game).
But, honestly, when a cut like that occurs in a hockey game, the player would be ridiculed if he missed a shift, let alone was taken out of the game.
Suliso wrote: ↑Wed Nov 17, 2021 10:48 pm
There are sometimes really bad injuries which in the first seconds didn't look much like anything.
^ But 95% of the time in this particular sport, the player who collapses to the ground, looking like he is about to die is completely faking his injury, and is up competing at 100% again within minutes of his 'near death experience'.
Honestly, this sport is out of control, and something must be done if it wishes to re-establish some sort of respectable credibility. But with sports gambling on the rise, the unfortunate likelihood is that these fake injuries will not only continue, but will increase even more.
They call soccer/football 'the beautiful game' - and perhaps it is that in theory. But in actual practice, it is rife with the dishonesty of fake injuries, dangerous rioting among 'fans', and corruption. Nothing beautiful about that.
by ptmcmahon I think most of the rest of the world isn't bothered by this though, at least not as much as we are. So I don't think they are too concerned about what us grumpy North Americans think of their game we don't even call football They probably have little issue with the fake injuries it so they don't care if we consider it credible or not. The game is doing just fine world wide with most of us not watching much or at all.
Same as if other parts had a problem with ice hockey because they considered it too.. can I say barbariac ...people checking each other, fighting etc, making each other bleed. If say someone in an country where ice hockey wasn't played much said it was out of control and had no credibility... we probably wouldn't make any changes because of their opinions either.
So I'll just watch the big events and roll my eyes when necessary.
by mmmm8 I think for most sports fans worldwide, a strong affinity for, or, at least, the presence of soccer in their lives is so ingrained, there is not really an option to not be interested. I don't know any soccer fans that love diving (the common tactic of the injury-faking) and even fewer appreciate the corruption in the sport. But it's not a reason to stop watching. For many, it's a big part of their identity.
Most if not all "major" sports have a big level of unfairness, damaging side effects, mercantilism, and/or corruption. That's not an excuse for accepting them, but it's a fact.
by ponchi101 I believe I can say that I have travelled a little bit around S. America. And I must be the sole man I know that dislikes football. It is, as M8 says, part of the national identity (It is good that Venezuela's national game is baseball).
And every time I talk about the diving and the on-court cheating, or the ridiculous (to me) "great" match that ended in a 0-0 draw, all I get is "well, that is the way the sport plays".
by ptmcmahon I got no qualms with low or no scoring matches. I don't need goals to enjoy a match. How un-North American of me. Almost as bad as me usually calling Ice Hockey ... Ice Hockey Although I play the other kind so I think that gives me an exception.
by Suliso It all depends what you're used to. I find American football silly and boring, but that's because I didn't grow up with it. Same with cricket.
by skatingfan As someone who grew up in a hockey culture the rolling on the ground like you're dying is really hard to watch. As a kid when I played soccer I was only injured once, and I was just hobbling on the field trying to get one of the coaches to signal for substitute. It never occurred to me to lay down on the field in order to get the attention of the referees.
by Deuce
mmmm8 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:08 pm
I think for most sports fans worldwide, a strong affinity for, or, at least, the presence of soccer in their lives is so ingrained, there is not really an option to not be interested. I don't know any soccer fans that love diving (the common tactic of the injury-faking) and even fewer appreciate the corruption in the sport. But it's not a reason to stop watching. For many, it's a big part of their identity.
Most if not all "major" sports have a big level of unfairness, damaging side effects, mercantilism, and/or corruption. That's not an excuse for accepting them, but it's a fact.
Granted that there is no professional sport that's perfect - and, as money becomes more and more pertinent in every pro sport, there will be less passion and more corruption -, I still say that soccer stands out because of the ridiculousness, manner, and frequency of players faking injuries. You just don't see that in any other sport to anywhere near the degree as is present in soccer.
Again, when I watch soccer, I see a sport which simply doesn't respect itself. I don't think it's healthy to simply overlook it, shrug one's shoulders, and say "Well, that's just the way it is." That's not very progressive thinking. I believe that high standards are better than low ones. It's amazing to me that those who claim to love the game are not making a concentrated and concerted effort to change this element of soccer for the better. Not that I've seen or heard, in any case.
by ptmcmahon Because most of them don’t think they need to get rid of the diving/fake injuries etc. Just because we who grew up in hockey cultures think it is an issue…doesn’t mean they do. Like usual you think that everyone else thinks the same way you (and in this case I ) do.
by Deuce
ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Sat Nov 20, 2021 12:36 am
Because most of them don’t think they need to get rid of the diving/fake injuries etc. Just because we who grew up in hockey cultures think it is an issue…doesn’t mean they do. Like usual you think that everyone else thinks the same way you (and in this case I ) do.
Soccer did not begin this way - with the diving, faking injuries, etc. It was not meant to be an inherent part of the game; this is not the way that the game was designed to be played. So any acceptance of this BS has been a gradual, ongoing process.
I cannot believe that there are not many TRUE soccer fans - such as those who remember the game before the nonsense, as but one segment - who want it to stop. But what are they doing to try to stop it?
I know one such person - a man in his 70s from Europe. When asked, he says that he really doesn't like the faking injuries, etc., and would enjoy the game significantly more if it were not present. But, at the same time, he accepts it by still watching it.
It's similar in a way to the manner in which North American culture has gradually accepted that many of their products are made under 'slave labour' in poor countries. People SAY that it's wrong and terrible, etc. - but they also demonstrate their acceptance of it by buying more and more products (because North American culture is extremely materialistic).
In both cases, there is little, if any, integrity shown. “Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony.” - Mahatma Gandhi
.
by ptmcmahon Interesting… I don’t remember soccer not being that way (having lots of diving) but I also have no memories of it before the .. 89 ? … World Cup.
by ponchi101 86 world cup (Mexico) or 90 (Italy).
by ptmcmahon 90 then. West Germany beating Argentina in final. And even that I don't remember if there was diving etc. Too young to notice that then.
by Deuce I think that if a person truly loves a sport, he/she will want to see it played fairly, the way that it was designed and intended to be played.
These fake injuries are literally repeated, constant, and extreme efforts to cheat. Sure, this occurs in every sport - but not at anywhere near the level it does in soccer. The Houston Astros banged on garbage cans in a less overt effort to cheat, and baseball fans everywhere objected to it and refused to accept it.
Real soccer fans who truly love the game cannot possibly accept the ridiculous attempts to cheat and alarming frequency with which this occurs in the sport. Soccer has become a parody of itself. It's time for it to become better and to start respecting itself instead.
Here are 3 articles, for anyone interested in reading on the subject. All three are North American perspectives, which are probably generally more objective on this particular subject, as soccer is less popular here than in other parts of the world.
by ptmcmahon I know we don't like it in North America...that's not what I'm debating. Outside of North America do people feel like this? Obviously may be harder for you or I to find (or understand) if any articles on it. My thought is many of those "real soccer fans" don't consider it cheating and just consider it part of the game.
The third article reminds me of many cases in professional (North American) football where some similar things are celebrated. If a punter is able to draw contact and make themselves look hurt, they are celebrated for "drawing a penalty" for example. And there are the mentioned fake injuries to stop clock, momentum etc. Perhaps we aren't so different here after all.
A good comparison we can relate to is ice hockey - the European game in much different than the North American game. I wonder if many Europeans watch North American ice hockey and think all the body checking and physical contact is cheating. We consider it part of the game. Or anyone who is used to womens hockey where it is almost not tolerated at all... If they grew up watching womens hockey and then watched men's hockey ... they'd probably be just aghast.
So we can't really say what "real soccer fans" should feel...only what we ourselves think. We can't necessarily say that a real soccer fan can't accept how the game is....or they could just turn around and tell us we have to accept how it is or we aren't true soccer fans.
And once again, I will disagree that if something is less popular ...it doesn't makes our opinion matter more or being more objective. That would be similar to say someone in a country with little medical care coming here and saying "my opinions on medicine are more valid than yours since medicine is ... less popular (ok not exactly right words) ... than yours." Or if someone came to this board and said "I don't watch tennis, so my opinions on it are better than everyone's here ". Being invested in something doesn't disqualify you from being able to be subjective about it...especially since you will know it better than the other person.
by Deuce
ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:56 am
I know we don't like it in North America...that's not what I'm debating. Outside of North America do people feel like this? Obviously may be harder for you or I to find (or understand) if any articles on it. My thought is many of those "real soccer fans" don't consider it cheating and just consider it part of the game.
^ It remains, however, that soccer was never intended to be played that way (with the fake injuries). This includes the present day, where doing that is still against the rules. That it is so tolerated and accepted in practice is completely contrary to the spirit, intention, and purpose of the game.
ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:56 am
The third article reminds me of many cases in professional (North American) football where some similar things are celebrated. If a punter is able to draw contact and make themselves look hurt, they are celebrated for "drawing a penalty" for example. And there are the mentioned fake injuries to stop clock, momentum etc. Perhaps we aren't so different here after all.
^ I did mention that cheating - in various ways - also occurs in other sports. But I maintain that it is significantly more obvious, more frequent, and more accepted in soccer than in any other sport that I can think of. From what I have seen and read, soccer has a much worse reputation for diving/fake injuries than any other organized sport played on this planet. If that is not so, please give examples of other organized sports which have as bad or worse a reputation as soccer for faking injuries.
ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:56 am
A good comparison we can relate to is ice hockey - the European game in much different than the North American game. I wonder if many Europeans watch North American ice hockey and think all the body checking and physical contact is cheating. We consider it part of the game. Or anyone who is used to womens hockey where it is almost not tolerated at all... If they grew up watching womens hockey and then watched men's hockey ... they'd probably be just aghast.
^ This is a poor comparison, as hockey was originally designed with body checking being an integral, accepted, and legal part of the game. Therefore, anyone viewing it as cheating is applying their own view of what they think the game 'should' be, according to their personal perspective. This is akin to someone saying that foot faults should be allowed in tennis.
Not so for the diving/fake injuries in soccer, which is not the way the sport was designed or intended to be played, and which is illegal to this day, because it is blatantly cheating.
ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:56 am
So we can't really say what "real soccer fans" should feel...only what we ourselves think. We can't necessarily say that a real soccer fan can't accept how the game is....or they could just turn around and tell us we have to accept how it is or we aren't true soccer fans.
^ Anyone can say whatever they wish - and people often do so to support their agenda, and/or to justify their position.
The fact remains, however, that the intent of a soccer game was never - and is still not - to win by cheating. Therefore, in MY definition of a true fan of the sport, true fans will want the sport to be authentic and to be played honestly, and will not tolerate the blatant, frequent cheating.
ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:56 am
And once again, I will disagree that if something is less popular ...it doesn't makes our opinion matter more or being more objective. That would be similar to say someone in a country with little medical care coming here and saying "my opinions on medicine are more valid than yours since medicine is ... less popular (ok not exactly right words) ... than yours." Or if someone came to this board and said "I don't watch tennis, so my opinions on it are better than everyone's here ". Being invested in something doesn't disqualify you from being able to be subjective about it...especially since you will know it better than the other person.
^ By that logic, and in keeping with current events, who are we to condemn the Chinese government's censorship and lies? If it is normal and accepted by them, we shouldn't 'impose' our views on them, right?
Of course, however, certain basic and universal standards of ethics do exist in life. These revolve largely around honesty. By this measure, then, faking injuries is unethical, dishonest, and wrong.
I believe that in many cases, the more objective perspectives come from those who are outside of the circumstance, but who also understand the circumstance. More often than not, the perspective of those within the circumstance is swayed and influenced by their personal interests in it, and the personal benefits they may derive from taking a certain position. As in "One can't see the forest for the trees."
It seems that North Americans who criticize the fake injuries in soccer understand the game - because one must possess an understanding of the game to see that it is cheating.
I also believe, as I've stated, that those who truly love and care about soccer - no matter what part of the planet they are from - would like to see this practice of faking injuries stopped as soon as possible. Unfortunately, the governing body of soccer - FIFA - has a long-standing reputation of profound corruption, and that is likely one of the primary reasons why the sport of soccer has not yet been cleaned up and rid of the blatant cheating.
Onto curling - where there is no faking of injuries!
Canada's Olympic Trials and the European Curling Championships are both being played now...
by Suliso Really nobody here is that crazy bothered about soccer theater, same as you in North America are not too upset about flopping in NBA or fighting in NHL.
by ponchi101
ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:56 am
I know we don't like it in North America...that's not what I'm debating. Outside of North America do people feel like this? Obviously may be harder for you or I to find (or understand) if any articles on it. My thought is many of those "real soccer fans" don't consider it cheating and just consider it part of the game.
...
And that's it. It is not that difficult. It is not considered cheating.
by ptmcmahon
Deuce wrote: ↑Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:00 am
Therefore, anyone viewing it as cheating is applying their own view of what they think the game 'should' be, according to their personal perspective.
…which is exactly what you are doing with soccer. That’s the crux of my argument. You are Saying other people can’t use their personal perspective to decide what is cheating… but it is ok for you to do so about soccer.
But yes, onto curling where there are no controversies.. well except for people being shifty about where they live. Although that’s moot for Olympic trials.
ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:56 am
I know we don't like it in North America...that's not what I'm debating. Outside of North America do people feel like this? Obviously may be harder for you or I to find (or understand) if any articles on it. My thought is many of those "real soccer fans" don't consider it cheating and just consider it part of the game.
...
And that's it. It is not that difficult. It is not considered cheating.
^ But it IS cheating.
If the Chinese government blatantly lies, and they don't consider it lying, it is still lying. If there is a white horse in the meadow and someone considers it to be a black horse, it is still a white horse.
Diving/faking injuries is against the rules of the game - therefore, to do it deliberately (and blatantly and repeatedly) is very clearly cheating. It's there in black and white.
And, in my opinion, true fans don't tolerate - or overlook - cheating. True fans seek to eliminate the cheating so that the game can be played fairly - may the best team win, as originally intended, and as still intended based on the rules of the game.
Deuce wrote: ↑Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:00 am
Therefore, anyone viewing it as cheating is applying their own view of what they think the game 'should' be, according to their personal perspective.
…which is exactly what you are doing with soccer. That’s the crux of my argument. You are Saying other people can’t use their personal perspective to decide what is cheating… but it is ok for you to do so about soccer.
No, I'm not doing that at all. I'm not the one who is defining it as cheating - soccer's OWN RULE BOOK defines it as cheating. Because the intent of the diving/fake injuries is to give your team an unearned and unfair advantage. That's where the difference lies. If someone calls body checking in hockey 'cheating', the argument holds no water because it is in no way against the rules of hockey. However, if someone calls diving/faking injuries in soccer cheating, it is simply an accurate definition of the circumstance - because it IS cheating according to the rules of soccer.
Indeed, I do consider it cheating and extremely poor sportsmanship, as well. But that is my perspective BECAUSE the game is not intended to be played that way according to ITS OWN RULES. I didn't make up the rules of the game - I'm simply saying that diving/faking injuries is showing no respect for the rules or for the game itself. And, yes, in my opinion, that's wrong, selfish, manipulative, deceitful, etc.
So it's not me that is imposing my own personal definition of cheating, it is soccer's own rules that define the diving/fake injuries as cheating. I'm simply saying that the powers that be in soccer should enforce their own rules - because not doing so, and continuing to allow this nonsense, shows that the game does not respect itself, and it lowers it to the level of WWE wrestling - much more 'entertainment' that true, fair sport.
Therefore, regardless of my perspective, or of anyone else's perspective in any country, it is, in fact, cheating.
ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:23 pm
But yes, onto curling where there are no controversies.. well except for people being shifty about where they live. Although that’s moot for Olympic trials.
Don't get me started about the ridiculous residency rules.
There was the broom controversy a few years ago, too. But that was solved by making everyone use the same fabric - and even the same colour. So at least curling makes a real (and successful) effort to solve its problems.
by ti-amie Second weekend in a row F1 has me paying attention to the men who drive around in circles at high speed.
by mmmm8 So, theoretically, I think it's fair to say most fans, globally, don't like the diving/faking and it's also true that most don't consider it cheating.
In my personal world, I find it hilarious, and, thus, distracting and a bit denigrating for the sport. But if I were picking sport issues to campaign about, I'd start with safety measures to address the proven and measured danger of brain damage from various forms of tackling, including in soccer and the ungracefulness of diving is just not that high on the list.
by Deuce I see what you're saying... but it's not an 'either/or' scenario. One can object equally to both the concussion/brain damage syndrome and the diving/fake injuries in soccer.
I don't see how the two are related in any way, as one is a manipulative means of gaining an unfair advantage which the teams and players are in complete control of, while the other is a result of playing various sports largely as they are intended to be played, and which, once engaged in the game, the players have little control over.
I agree that more needs to be done to protect players from long-term brain injuries and damage - and a potential early death. I simply don't see the relation between that and the diving/fake injuries in soccer. One can object to both without sacrificing their position on one or on the other.
by KLow23 big night for man utd. villarreal have been a tough team for them and its some random guy in charge who has never had a job before. awesome.
by ti-amie I will never claim to be a fan of F1 but for the last month or so every Sunday my TL is full of tennis fans who follow it. There was a lot of controversy this week about Verstappen's slowing down at this point of the race. Was he trying to cause an accident?
by ti-amie
In case you're wondering who DelPrete is he' was a professional golfer.
LPGA Star Jessica Korda's BF Johnny DelPrete Arrested in Prostitution Sting
TIM DANIELS
FEBRUARY 23, 2019
Former Web.com Tour golfer Johnny DelPrete was arrested Friday morning in Florida on a charge of soliciting prostitution as part of the same statewide investigation into sex trafficking that led to charges against New England Patriots owner Robert Kraft.
Roxanna Scott of Golfweek reported the update Saturday and noted DelPrete, the boyfriend of LPGA star Jessica Korda, was released from custody in Martin County on $2,500 bond.
The 29-year-old Florida native attended the University of Louisville and the University of Mississippi before turning pro in 2010. He appeared in eight Web.com Tour events between 2012 and 2014.
His LinkedIn profile noted he's now a licensed realtor in Jupiter, Florida. He lists the end of his golf career as May 2017 after other stints with PGA Tour Canada and PGA Tour China.
No further details about the charge against him were released.
by ti-amie
There was a very controersial ruling that has had F1 Twitter up in arms all morning/afternoon. I can't pretend to understand what it's all about.
by ti-amie
by ti-amie This is what the protests were about.
Karl Kondal
@kondal_karl
Replying to
@SebxstianVxttel
and
@F1
And Lewis did win the World Championship on the track. The entire race he ground Verstappen into the ground. Max could not catch him until the powers-that-be decided to allow him to pass all of the cars between him and Lewis on the final lap. A World Championship forever tainted.
by ponchi101 I would have them run 30 laps tomorrow. Nobody else on the track.
And I am NOT a Hamilton fan. But that was indeed a BS ending.
by ti-amie I don't know if I should be a Hamilton fan or not it's just that F1 has been dominating my TL of Sunday's and I find it kind of amazing. Anyway Mercedes is not giving up
by ti-amie
by ponchi101 Only thing is: it was not lost. Plenty of people noticed and plenty of people congratulated both Hamiltons. Indeed, gracious to the max (or to Max, depending how you want it).
by ti-amie
by Deuce Well, that was rather mishandled, wasn't it?
First, during the safety car, it was "Lapped cars may not unlap themselves." So, based largely on this decision, Mercedes decided to not pit Hamilton for new tires.
But then, a couple of minutes later "Lapped cars will unlap themselves." By this time, it was too late for Hamilton to pit for new tires.
Then, with Verstappen on new soft tires and right behind Hamilton at the re-start, and Hamilton on old hard tires, it was rather inevitable that Verstappen would pass Hamilton for the lead on the only remaining racing lap. The only real chance that Hamilton had at that point was for Verstappen to make a big mistake - which didn't happen.
There's no question that Wolff and the Mercedes team are spoiled 'divas' who would likely have lodged a protest no matter how Verstappen won... but in this circumstance, their complaint is justified.
It was a difficult situation - the safety car was obviously needed... and for the crash to happen just 5 laps from the finish was very unfortunate, as Hamilton was in complete control of the race from the first lap. (Kind of makes one wonder how much Red Bull paid Latifi to crash .)
The winner - of an individual race and of the championship - should be decided on the track. It's unfortunate that this wasn't the case here, as the best car/driver of the day did not win. Instead, it was all decided by a decision that was made outside of the track.
I'm not a Hamilton fan, but, yes, he did handle the situation well - at least publicly. It helps that he had already won 7 world championships, of course.
And Hamilton's dad showed class in congratulating Verstappen and his dad, as well.
Lastly, the look in Horner's eyes as he shook Lewis's hand was that of a man who feels that he just got away with something.
.
by Fastbackss I never envy race control.
However - they mangled the finish.
I "get" that they don't want the season to end under a safety car (and Mercedes, frankly, should have made the logical presumption F1 would do whatever it took to restart), but changing the decision so many times...and only partially following the rule (just the first 5 lappers were sent through) is a terrible look.
Lewis was so gracious in defeat. If I were him I think I would have sat in the car until everyone went home.
I can't help but connect the dots between F1 being run by a media company (irrespective of what happened at the "rain race" earlier this year.
Unrelated aside - thanks to fanduel for refunding my championship bet that I had on Lewis (got pretty good odds when Max had his biggest lead of the season)
by ponchi101 F1 makes it very clear they are entertainment. And yes, it is a private company, so sports' rules really don't apply.
They needed somebody else to win, after all these years of MB and Hamilton domination. I, for example, stopped watching after every race was a predetermined outcome. For F1, this was good.
But for motor sports it was terrible.
by Deuce The lapped cars between Hamilton and Verstappen were told to unlap themselves. This provided Verstappen an opportunity to overtake Hamilton once the safety car was removed from the track.
The problem with allowing only the lapped cars between Hamilton and Verstappen to unlap themselves, and not permitting the other lapped cars to unlap themselves, is that the cars positioned in 3rd, 4th, 5th place, etc. did not really have a chance to improve their positions on that final racing lap because there were lapped cars in the way.
Giving Verstappen a much better chance of overtaking Hamilton on the last lap than Sainz was given to overtake Verstappen - or than Tsunoda was given to overtake Sainz, etc. is blatantly unfair.
If you're going to make it so that the cars in 1st and 2nd place are one behind the other and have a chance to race each other on the re-start, you have to also make it so that the car in 2nd place and the car in 3rd place are also one behind the other, etc.
Why was Verstappen given a much better chance to overtake Hamilton than Sainz was given to overtake Verstappen?
As others have said - you have to either allow ALL the lapped cars through, or none of them. Had Sainz been directly behind Verstappen at the re-start, maybe he would have passed Verstappen. The race director cannot assume that would not happen. Nor can he deny Sainz the opportunity to challenge Verstappen for 2nd place. And the same throughout the rest of the field. That's why this decision was wrong.
by ti-amie
Deuce wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 9:19 pm
The lapped cars between Hamilton and Verstappen were told to unlap themselves. This provided Verstappen an opportunity to overtake Hamilton once the safety car was removed from the track.
The problem with allowing only the lapped cars between Hamilton and Verstappen to unlap themselves, and not permitting the other lapped cars to unlap themselves, is that the cars positioned in 3rd, 4th, 5th place, etc. did not really have a chance to improve their positions on that final racing lap because there were lapped cars in the way.
Giving Verstappen a much better chance of overtaking Hamilton on the last lap than Sainz was given to overtake Verstappen - or than Tsunoda was given to overtake Sainz, etc. is blatantly unfair.
If you're going to make it so that the cars in 1st and 2nd place are one behind the other and have a chance to race each other on the re-start, you have to also make it so that the car in 2nd place and the car in 3rd place are also one behind the other, etc.
Why was Verstappen given a much better chance to overtake Hamilton than Sainz was given to overtake Verstappen?
As others have said - you have to either allow ALL the lapped cars through, or none of them. Had Sainz been directly behind Verstappen at the re-start, maybe he would have passed Verstappen. The race director cannot assume that would not happen. Nor can he deny Sainz the opportunity to challenge Verstappen for 2nd place. And the same throughout the rest of the field. That's why this decision was wrong.
Thanks for this explanation. I'm learning.
by KLow23 random but scott davenport is a bit of a basketball genius
by ponchi101 I'll take your word for it, KLow, but if you can expand on your opinion, it would be great.
I don't know the gentleman.
Best part is one comment that said "the man has a fixation with Kyrie".
Hard to disagree.
by ti-amie
by JazzNU
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 22, 2021 3:47 pm
Best part is one comment that said "the man has a fixation with Kyrie".
Hard to disagree.
No he doesn't. There's a media fixation with Stephen A when he talks about Kyrie that makes it seem that way, which is much different. If you've watched him over the years, you'll know that his fixation is with KD.
by ptmcmahon That is one of the most stereotypically Russian stories
Ever
by ti-amieThe Highest-Paid Female Athletes Score A Record $167 Million
Brett KnightForbes Staff
SportsMoney
I cover the business of sports
Naomi Osaka leads the top ten with $57 million, but the presence of a gymnast and a WNBA player shows sponsors are starting to cast a wider net.
There is plenty to worry about in the world of women’s sports: disparities in pay and facilities, poor working conditions, a lack of media coverage, even outright abuse. Yet for all those problems, there is an undeniable sense of optimism, too. Leagues are adding new owners and expansion teams. TV ratings are up, and networks are providing new homes for games. Sponsor dollars are—finally—arriving, and startups are attracting investors.
That growth is extending to athletes’ paychecks. The world’s ten highest-paid female athletes earned a combined $167 million before taxes in 2021, according to Forbes estimates, a 23% increase over 2020 and a 16% jump from the prior record of $143.3 million set in 2013. At the top is tennis ace Naomi Osaka, who hauled in $57.3 million, easily a calendar-year record for a female athlete. Serena Williams takes the runner-up spot with $45.9 million.
The picture is not entirely rosy: Osaka and Williams account for virtually all of the increase, and no other woman on this list has even a remote chance of ranking among the world’s highest-paid athletes of either sex. (On Forbes’ 2021 athletes list, tracking the 12 months ending in May, Osaka landed at No. 12 and Williams at No. 28; the third-highest-paid woman on this new list, Venus Williams, missed the cutoff for the overall top 50 athletes by more than $20 million.)
Moreover, the threshold for the top ten of the women’s list is actually a tad lower than it was a decade ago—$5.7 million, down from $6.1 million in 2012.
Insiders insist, however, that new money and new sponsors are pouring into women’s sports; it’s just that the dollars are being spread among more athletes and finding their way into new leagues. For the first time in at least a dozen years, a gymnast (Simone Biles, No. 4 with $10.1 million) and a basketball player (Candace Parker, No. 10 with $5.7 million) rank among the highest-paid women. And while tennis still accounts for five of the list’s ten spots, that is the sport’s lowest tally in more than a decade and a dramatic change from 2019, when it claimed all ten. Parker—along with American soccer stars Alex Morgan and Megan Rapinoe, who came up just shy of making the top ten—is especially encouraging because she comes from a team sport, where salaries lag behind the prize money available in individual sports.
“Now it’s way different,” says recently retired soccer legend Carli Lloyd, who joined the U.S. national team in 2005 alongside women who had fought for basics like guaranteed compensation and health benefits. “Whether it’s a [social media] post players are making to get paid or whether they’re signing endorsement deals, it’s a good space to come into, and it obviously occurred because of all the former players that had come prior.”
Here are the ten highest-paid female athletes from 2021.
NAOMI OSAKA
No. 1
Tennis • Age: 24 • Japan
Total Earnings: $57.3M
On-The-Field Earnings: $2.3 million
Off-The-Field Earnings: $55 million
Nearly all of Naomi Osaka’s $57.3 million in pretax earnings comes from an endorsement portfolio that has added more than ten brand partners over the last year and a half, including Louis Vuitton, Sweetgreen and Tag Heuer. In recent months, the Japanese-born 24-year-old has picked up equity stakes in VR startup StatusPRO and plant-based-chicken maker Daring Foods, released a collection of NFTs on Tom Brady’s Autograph platform and launched a skincare line called Kinlò. The tennis ace had a bit of a tougher time on the court in 2021, falling to 13th in the women’s rankings and crashing out of the Tokyo Olympics in the third round, but she did capture her fourth Grand Slam title, at the Australian Open in February. An abdominal injury will keep her from defending her crown at this year’s tournament in Melbourne, set to begin on Monday.
No. 2
SERENA WILLIAMS
Tennis • Age: 40 • U.S.
Total Earnings: $45.9M
On-The-Field Earnings: $0.9 million
Off-The-Field Earnings: $45 million
Were it not for Naomi Osaka, Serena Williams would claim the earnings record for a female athlete with her $45.9 million from 2021. The 40-year-old played in only six WTA Tour tournaments and plummeted to 41st in the women’s rankings—her worst mark since she returned to tennis in 2018 after the birth of her daughter—but she remains a big draw for advertisers, partnering with brands like Nike, Gatorade and, most recently, DirecTV. She was an executive producer on the 2021 film King Richard, which centered on her father, and she has investments in more than 60 startups through her firm Serena Ventures. Williams said last month that she would miss the Australian Open because “I am not where I need to be physically to compete.”
No. 3
VENUS WILLIAMS
Tennis • Age: 41 • U.S.
Total Earnings: $11.3M
On-The-Field Earnings: $0.3 million
Off-The-Field Earnings: $11 million
Venus Williams is a rare sight on the WTA Tour these days, playing only nine tournaments, and winning only three matches, in 2021. That would destroy most players’ earnings potential: In the tennis world, a drop in the rankings or a missed tournament typically triggers a reduction in deals with sponsors hoping to see their logos on television. But Williams’ partnerships in recent years have focused more on her celebrity than her tennis, and the 41-year-old has a lucrative side hustle making appearances and giving keynote speeches. She has her own apparel brand, EleVen, which has collaborated with K-Swiss, and like her sister Serena, she was an executive producer on the film King Richard. Also like her sister, she will skip this year’s Australian Open—the first time neither of them will appear at the Melbourne tournament since 1997.
No. 4
SIMONE BILES
Gymnastics • Age: 24 • U.S.
Total Earnings: $10.1M
On-The-Field Earnings: $0.1 million
Off-The-Field Earnings: $10 million
The Tokyo Olympics did not go as Simone Biles planned: She withdrew from five events before returning to win bronze on the balance beam. Still, the 24-year-old had already secured her status as a gymnastics legend, and her story of resilience seemed to resonate with brands. She partnered with Autograph to release NFTs starting in August and joined mental-health startup Cerebral as “chief impact officer” in October. She was also the face of a cross-country post-Olympics gymnastics tour, the Gold Over America Tour, with its initials spelling GOAT—a nod to her reputation as the sport’s greatest of all-time.
On-The-Field Earnings: $2.8 million
Off-The-Field Earnings: $6 million
Even counting her runner-up finish at the 2020 Australian Open, Garbiñe Muguruza’s last couple of seasons felt somewhat disappointing after a dominant run from 2015 to 2017. She rediscovered her form in 2021, however, winning three tournaments and climbing to No. 3 in the women’s tennis rankings to trigger significant sponsor bonuses. The 28-year-old Spaniard also added Jaguar and Nivea to her valuable set of endorsements with brands including Adidas and Babolat.
No. 6
JIN YOUNG KO
Golf • Age: 26 • South Korea
Total Earnings: $7.5M
On-The-Field Earnings: $3.5 million
Off-The-Field Earnings: $4 million
After nearly two straight years at No. 1, Jin Young Ko lost the top spot in the women’s golf rankings to Nelly Korda, but she picked up a pretty good consolation prize with a win in the season-ending CME Group Tour Championship in November, claiming $1.5 million and LPGA Player of the Year honors. Although she plays without an equipment deal, favoring a mixed set of clubs of different brands, the 26-year-old can count on valuable sponsorships from companies from her native South Korea, a golf-crazy country. Her partners include LG Electronics, Korean Air, Jeju SamDaSoo mineral water and Rejuran skincare products.
No. 7
P.V. SINDHU
Badminton • Age: 26 • India
Total Earnings: $7.2M
On-The-Field Earnings: $0.2 million
Off-The-Field Earnings: $7 million
P.V. Sindhu may be virtually unknown in the U.S., but the 26-year-old badminton champion is hugely popular in India and has appeared in this list’s top ten once before, in 2018. She followed her silver-medal-winning performance in Rio de Janeiro in 2016 with a bronze last year in Tokyo, becoming the first Indian woman with two Olympic medals. She has added four sponsors since returning home, including ed-tech giant Byju’s and used-car platform Spinny, on top of partners like Li-Ning sportswear and India’s Bank of Baroda.
No. 8
ASHLEIGH BARTY
Tennis • Age: 25 • Australia
Total Earnings: $6.9M
On-The-Field Earnings: $3.9 million
Off-The-Field Earnings: $3 million
No women’s tennis player made more on the court in 2021 than Ashleigh Barty, the world’s top-ranked player and the reigning Wimbledon champion, and she is the betting favorite to win this month’s Australian Open on her home soil. But the 25-year-old, who recently signed a sponsorship deal with Marriott Bonvoy, served up a reminder of the pay disparities that still exist in some areas of the sport when she won the Western & Southern Open outside Cincinnati in August. She took home $255,220 for the victory, whereas the men’s champion at the same tournament, Alexander Zverev, collected $654,815.
No. 9
NELLY KORDA
Golf • Age: 23 • U.S.
Total Earnings: $5.9M
On-The-Field Earnings: $2.4 million
Off-The-Field Earnings: $3.5 million
Nelly Korda may have finished a spot behind Jin Young Ko on the LPGA prize-money list and in the Player of the Year race, but her year was perhaps even more impressive as she captured her first major title at the Women’s PGA Championship in June, won Olympic gold in August and ended 2021 as the top-ranked women’s golfer. The 23-year-old, recently named to Forbes’ 2022 30 Under 30 list in the sports category, has more than ten sponsors, including Hanwha Q Cells, a manufacturer of solar cells, and UKG, a tech company focused on workforce management.
No. 10
CANDACE PARKER
Basketball • Age: 35 • U.S.
Total Earnings: $5.7M
On-The-Field Earnings: $0.2 million
Off-The-Field Earnings: $5.5 million
Candace Parker is fresh off a WNBA championship run with the Chicago Sky, but with league salaries capped at around $200,000, she makes nearly all of her money from endorsements, partnering with brands like Adidas and, new for 2021, Band-Aid, Capital One and CarMax. In fact, her annual off-the-court pay is more than double her total playing salary across her 14 years in the WNBA. The 35-year-old became the first woman to appear on the cover of an NBA 2K video game last year and was among the star athletes to invest in trading-card exchange Alt in a funding round announced in November. Parker also has a lucrative contract as an NBA analyst for Turner Sports, extended last year.
by Deuce It's no secret that, as time has gone on, and as more and more money has been involved in professional sports, and as the internet has ensured that everyone gets their 15 MONTHS of fame, pro sports have become more and more superficial, with athletes becoming famous 'media stars' more than they are athletes. At the same time, the purity of genuine competition - and playing 'for the right reasons' - has been disappearing.
Here's Kimi Raikkonen's take on why he's happy to be leaving Formula 1...
by ponchi101 The IOC... what chutzpah. What gall. What hypocrisy.
Of course, very brave, now that they have no events to stage for three years.
by JazzNU
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 11:33 pm
The IOC... what chutzpah. What gall. What hypocrisy.
Of course, very brave, now that they have no events to stage for three years.
Paralympics begin next week. Summer Olympics in Paris are in 2 years. Sporting bodies host competitions throughout every year including some set to be hosted in Russia within the next month. I know you hate the IOC, but this isn't insignificant.
by Fastbackss I remember reading that there was a soft agreement they wouldn't invade during the Games - and I thought that was odd.
But now reading the IOC's statement I... well...I see they thought that too.
Speaking of statements... Formula 1's saying they "can't race under these circumstances " is softer than I would have liked
by JazzNU
Fastbackss wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 2:07 am
I remember reading that there was a soft agreement they wouldn't invade during the Games - and I thought that was odd.
But now reading the IOC's statement I... well...I see they thought that too.
Speaking of statements... Formula 1's saying they "can't race under these circumstances " is softer than I would have liked
It's part of the rules, that's why they are referencing the Olympic Truce. It's not a soft agreement. 7 days before the games start and 7 days after the Paralympics end, which conclude in mid-March. Them calling on sporting federations to pull events from Russia and Belarus is more than I think they've done in the past.
And yes, Formula 1 cancelled the Russian Grand Prix earlier in the day. I thought the full statement (rather than just the one line) was decent, but if definitely wasn't calling out Russia or Putin. Basically, asking for peace, which seems to be the move for many organizations in favor of specifics to I would assume, avoid drawing the ire of Russia directly.
by JazzNU
by ponchi101 FIFA, as always, make me want to
Polish Football Federation:
by the Moz Some in international sport has stepped up and taken a stand, but much more clearly must be done!
by the Moz FIFA & UEFA have suspended Russian clubs/teams from World Cup and all competitions
ti-amie wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 8:29 pm
Wait no ROC type arrangement? This will burn.
That was what FIFA gave them yesterday with the neutral site, no flag, no anthem announcement before Poland's very strong and well received statement in response to that.
Yes, this will burn. Hopefully the hockey championships follows suit, that will hurt even more.
by JazzNU
JazzNU wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 8:42 pm
Yes, this will burn. Hopefully the hockey championships follows suit, that will hurt even more.
Finally announced after speculation over the weekend.
by JazzNU
by ponchi101 Should all Russian NHL players be "suspended", with full pay?
I don't think so, but what else is there to do, sports wise?
by JazzNU
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 01, 2022 12:33 am
Should all Russian NHL players be "suspended", with full pay?
I don't think so, but what else is there to do, sports wise?
NHL doesn't do anything to distinguish players by their nationality to my knowledge outside of mentioning it or putting it on screen as info in some way about where they are from, so I don't think NHL has to change anything. Though they might want to keep Ovechkin away from a microphone. NHL did announce they are terminating existing Russian business contracts, the biggest one appears to be a TV contract that broadcast games in Russia.
The major competitions that are most being affected with that announcement, and part of why many wanted them banned, are the World Hockey Championships in Finland in a few months and the Junior Worlds, which were scheduled to be hosted in Russia at the end of the year. I think there may also be another rescheduled competition in there as well hosted in Canada, because Gretzky came out and said they should be banned. Both Russia and Belarus were set to compete in all of competitions from what I've read.
by skatingfan
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 01, 2022 12:33 am
Should all Russian NHL players be "suspended", with full pay?
I don't think so, but what else is there to do, sports wise?
I think athletes operating in professional sports are different than athletes who are representing the country in sporting events. In tennis the players aren't chosen by the Russian tennis federation in order to go to Indian Wells next week, and the players in the NHL are not representing Russia, or wearing Russian team gear, or jackets. I think it's a meaningful distinction.
by Suliso Indeed, I think it would be very unfair to ban Azarenka and Sabalenka from WTA tournaments. Neither lives in Belarus I think.
Suliso wrote: ↑Tue Mar 01, 2022 6:25 am
Indeed, I think it would be very unfair to ban Azarenka and Sabalenka from WTA tournaments. Neither lives in Belarus I think.
Not disagreeing with the take. But FYI, Sabalenka definitely lives in Belarus. She might have a second residence (likely in Miami going by her posts), but she's in Minsk all the time - the fiancé and her family, especially her little sister that she adores, are there and she's with them a lot. And Azarenka splits her time and spends much more time in Belarus than she previously did since the custody battle though she's in the US more still, but it was basically necessary given the claims she made in court. Go back 10 years, and you'd be completely correct, she was rarely there.
by Suliso I wonder how much longer they'll continue to live there. It will be hard to even travel to/from Belarus in the coming months.
by ashkor87 Sad day for Australian Sport, especially cricket...The great Shane Warne, best captain Australia never had, and Rod Marsh passed away on the same day...aged 52 and 74 respectively...
by ponchi101 I know this is of no consequence or even worthy news in America, but this is huge around the world.
Italy has failed, FOR THE SECOND CONSECUTIVE TIME, to qualify for the FIFA world cup.
This is the equivalent to the USA not qualifying for the world championships in basketball.
by the Moz Too bad for Italy. That'll mean a little less theatrics at Qatar
by ptmcmahon Perhaps more crazy was they lost yesterday to North Macedonia.
Canada meanwhile (finally) lost their first game in CONCACAF, 1-0 in Costa Rica. I only watched the second half, and despite being a man down they dominated most of the play I saw. Not a terrible loss - still just need a draw or a Costa Rica loss/draw to qualify.
by the Moz
ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Fri Mar 25, 2022 11:48 am
Perhaps more crazy was they lost yesterday to North Macedonia.
Canada meanwhile (finally) lost their first game in CONCACAF, 1-0 in Costa Rica. I only watched the second half, and despite being a man down they dominated most of the play I saw. Not a terrible loss - still just need a draw or a Costa Rica loss/draw to qualify.
How many qualifying fixtures left for Canada pt?
by ptmcmahon Hosting Jamaica Sunday, @ Panama Wednesday. Costa Rica play at El Salvador and host USA. Would be nice to clinch at home Sunday.
If all four games go the wrong way we'd still get 4th and get to play in the playoff vs the Ocean Region team.
by Deuce
ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Fri Mar 25, 2022 11:48 am
Perhaps more crazy was they lost yesterday to North Macedonia.
Canada meanwhile (finally) lost their first game in CONCACAF, 1-0 in Costa Rica. I only watched the second half, and despite being a man down they dominated most of the play I saw. Not a terrible loss - still just need a draw or a Costa Rica loss/draw to qualify.
I think Canada hit 2 or 3 goalposts....
But close only counts in horseshoes...
... and dynamite...
by ponchi101
the Moz wrote: ↑Fri Mar 25, 2022 11:28 am
Too bad for Italy. That'll mean a little less theatrics at Qatar
Don't get me started on Italian football. Don't get me started.
(I did not say I was sorry or booh-hooh for Italy. I was just reporting )
by Deuce Sadly, this seems to be the way that pretty much all sports are going - if you can perform well, and/or help the team win (and thus bring in more money), anything you do off the playing field will be overlooked and ignored (Tiger Woods, anyone?)...
Team and league officials don't care... Fans don't care, either...
It's tragic...
by Fastbackss The producer of a radio show I (and others on this board, *wink*) listen to was a huge Browns fan.
He "disavowed" his fandom once they signed DeShaun Watson. And for the most part his fellow fans didn't understand it...and took to social media to drag him for it
by Deuce Every once in a while, you come across a happening that just has to be shared...
It's worth noting that while all of the batter's teammates bolted out of the dugout, hardly any of the pitcher's teammates came out ...
by ponchi101 And the all time prize for the most deaf-tone, imbecile, criminal reply by an athlete to a question regarding morals goes to:
Greg Norman, replying to a question about the assassination of Jamaal Kashogi by the Saudi regime:
Pressed on the Khashoggi killing, Norman tried to brush off the question. “Everybody has owned up to it, right?" he said. "It has been spoken about, from what I’ve read, going on what you guys reported. Take ownership, no matter what it is. Look, we’ve all made mistakes and you just want to learn from those mistakes and how you can correct them going forward.”
Yep, we all have made mistakes. Like, you know, mistakes in which you ordered the killing and dismemberment of a political opponent. Who cannot relate to that? https://www.yahoo.com/sports/greg-norma ... 09448.html
by ti-amie
by JazzNU
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 1:38 am
And the all time prize for the most deaf-tone, imbecile, criminal reply by an athlete to a question regarding morals goes to:
Greg Norman, replying to a question about the assassination of Jamaal Kashogi by the Saudi regime:
Pressed on the Khashoggi killing, Norman tried to brush off the question. “Everybody has owned up to it, right?" he said. "It has been spoken about, from what I’ve read, going on what you guys reported. Take ownership, no matter what it is. Look, we’ve all made mistakes and you just want to learn from those mistakes and how you can correct them going forward.”
Yep, we all have made mistakes. Like, you know, mistakes in which you ordered the killing and dismemberment of a political opponent. Who cannot relate to that? https://www.yahoo.com/sports/greg-norma ... 09448.html
Makes you wonder what he's trying to recoup money from? Is it just the divorce settlements or does he also have massive gambling debts like Phil?
by ti-amie
by ti-amie
At super star level I think Jordan came close. So did Bret Favre. Those are the two that came to mind without doing a Google search.
by ponchi101 I am devastated that Mickelson will not be able to play the PGA. Devastated.
Nah, not really. He can fly to Riyadh this week and play some golf there.
by JazzNU
by ponchi101 Why is he doing that? He is still one of the best footballers in the world, and MLS is simply NOT European League football. If he does not score like two goals a game there, it will be a failure. This is like Ted Williams playing in the Venezuelan league: BA .550, 60 homeruns in 30 games.
I mean, I follow football in the same way I follow political news (meaning, forced to) but this makes no sense from the point of view sports. As a business, well, $200 million is the same for him as it would be for most people to buy a car. And I mean a VW.
by JazzNU
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Tue May 17, 2022 8:41 pm
Why is he doing that? He is still one of the best footballers in the world, and MLS is simply NOT European League football. If he does not score like two goals a game there, it will be a failure. This is like Ted Williams playing in the Venezuelan league: BA .550, 60 homeruns in 30 games.
I mean, I follow football in the same way I follow political news (meaning, forced to) but this makes no sense from the point of view sports. As a business, well, $200 million is the same for him as it would be for most people to buy a car. And I mean a VW.
I think you're reading this wrong. This is a thing. European footballers play their normal career in Europe and then when they can still play, but aren't anywhere near in their prime, they come to the US to make money in MLS because the washed version of them is still (pitifully) competitive here. It's been a very good deal for them. For someone of higher stature, he can cut a different deal, and he's clearly taking the Beckham path. Messi has a lot of money, sure, but when do any of these guys not want more? Plus, he had to have lost quite a bit in the last two years given his off-field business. This was rumored pre-pandemic though, so it's not just going to be about that, but could've played a role on the when and the particulars.
by ponchi101 Sure. Pele did it, past his prime. Beckham, Ronaldo, Xavi. But Messi is not past his prime. He is still playing quality football at PSG. That is what I don't get.
by ptmcmahon True but he's 34... he probably doesn't have much "prime" left. May have felt the ownership stake deal may not have available later if he waited too?
by ponchi101 I guess, then, that is what was said above. There is no such concept as "enough money". This man basically bankrupted Barca with his massive deal, but still wants even more.
I guess they are truly competitive in all senses.
by Owendonovan Dozens of women and girls who were sexually abused by the former gymnastics doctor Larry Nassar have filed administrative claims against the FBI over its investigation.
U.S. Women's National Team gymnasts Simone Biles and Aly Raisman and gymnast Maggie Nichols are among the more than 90 claimants who are seeking damages in excess of $1 billion from the bureau.
I hope they get this money. The way this was handled is much more criminal than a dollar amount.
by ponchi101 We have said it before. Soon, you will only be able to watch sports as PPV.
by JazzNU It's a bad idea in the case of the MLS to me. Soccer is growing in popularity, but it needs to be easily accessed in order to get more popular. There is very clear data in what gets watched OTA vs. cable vs. streaming, and acting like streaming is an every household thing remains to be a misguided notion held by those with more means. And the increase in popularity here was spearheaded by women's soccer not MLS. So for them to move this on a service and not one that people have easy access to is an interesting decision. Even more curious is that given the relative newness of the MLS, every team is still growing their local fanbase, so no local broadcast is a bold move that only time will tell if it pays off. In other sports, the local market is a huge factor to overall success, that fandom is an important driving force not just in ratings, but in tickets and merchandising among other things. So it's lucrative overall deal sure. But how much would they have had to give up to keep the playoffs on a TV contract with streaming as well? To offer X number of local games OTA in a specific region? Seems like a better approach than exclusivity.
I have a hard time seeing all sports ever being only PPV. I could see some big events in the specific sport doing it, but not everything. Streaming as a whole, while technically popular, gets overstated in the degree of popularity it has. It is also talked about as a monolith as if it's not 20 different services.
by ponchi101 I say NBA and NFL would love to see people watching only via their platforms. Tennis is going that way because it is such a niche sport.
Down here in S. America, of course it won't happen with soccer, because, as you say, people will not accept it; it is not affordable for most everybody that watches the sport. But in wealthy countries, it might end up being that way.
Might.
by ti-amie
by ponchi101 Some athletes do gain total separation from the rest of the field.
Yulimar Rojas, Venezuela's triple-jump monster, just added this year's World Championship's gold to her coffer. That is three in a row.
Olympic gold (Tokyo) and silver (Rio), WR, OR, Indoor WR, and now this. She really has no competition at the moment.
She is 26, so you can count on participating in the Paris OG, and very likely one more. She can be on her way to being the greatest Triple-Jumper in all of history.
by Cuckoo4Coco It is very sad that some of these athletes have to go through these delays with their countries. All of these athletes have dreamed in participating in these games and to have something like this slow it down and add extra stress is just not right.
by ponchi101 Speaking of untouchables.
Sydney McLaughlin broke the 400M hurdles world record AGAIN. She has broken it 4 times in 13 months, and this time she broke it by almost 3/4 of a second, which in track and field is absolutely absurd. She dropped her own record from 51.41 to 50.68.
The silver went to Femke Bol, who came 1.5 secs behind McLaughlin. Again, in a short race like that, the separation is ridiculous.
That is: McLaughlin is running 4 consecutive 100/Hurdles in 12.67. The record for the 100 hurdles/women is 12.20. So basically her four laps would land her four times in the podium (roughly).
(I know that the 100 hurdles have more concentrated hurdles, but... still).
by Cuckoo4Coco I watched the upset that happened in I think it was the 4 x 100 meter relay Men's. Team Canada upset the United States to win the Gold medal.
by ponchi101 Another faulty baton transfer, although last year in Tokyo they failed to even reach the finals.
Jamaican women were also upset by a baton transfer. That was huge.
by patrick Yep, USA defeating Jamaica was a huge upset.
Will the USA men get the baton portion of the relay perfected by 2024
by Deuce
Cuckoo4Coco wrote: ↑Sun Jul 24, 2022 5:28 pm
I watched the upset that happened in I think it was the 4 x 100 meter relay Men's. Team Canada upset the United States to win the Gold medal.
Cuckoo4Coco wrote: ↑Sun Jul 24, 2022 5:28 pm
I watched the upset that happened in I think it was the 4 x 100 meter relay Men's. Team Canada upset the United States to win the Gold medal.
We're not upset at all...
I wouldn't think you would be upset at all.
by Cuckoo4Coco
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 24, 2022 6:12 pm
Another faulty baton transfer, although last year in Tokyo they failed to even reach the finals.
Jamaican women were also upset by a baton transfer. That was huge.
That is exactly what it was. That is what determined the race.
OMG that looks like the entire field of riders involved in the crash.
by ti-amie
by ponchi101 And you know what? These spectacular athletes are paid millions and can only perform when in top shape. So I would say yes, the teams can have these clauses.
If I remember well, Dennis Eckersley (MLB) had a clause in his contract regarding his alcohol use (mainly, he needed treatment and had to stay sober).
by ti-amie
by Deuce Lacrosse was Canada's only official national sport for over 100 years, until 1994.
Now, Lacrosse is Canada's official national SUMMER sport, while hockey is Canada's official national WINTER sport.
by Cuckoo4Coco
Deuce wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 3:28 am
Lacrosse was Canada's only official national sport for over 100 years, until 1994.
Now, Lacrosse is Canada's official national SUMMER sport, while hockey is Canada's official national WINTER sport.
Deuce wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 3:28 am
Lacrosse was Canada's only official national sport for over 100 years, until 1994.
Now, Lacrosse is Canada's official national SUMMER sport, while hockey is Canada's official national WINTER sport.
What about Curling?
Curling is a wonderful sport - often described as 'chess on ice'... It's much more difficult than it looks on TV.
But it was never our national sport.
Although curling is most often associated with Canada, its origins are in Scotland.
Deuce wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 3:28 am
Lacrosse was Canada's only official national sport for over 100 years, until 1994.
Now, Lacrosse is Canada's official national SUMMER sport, while hockey is Canada's official national WINTER sport.
What about Curling?
Curling is a wonderful sport - often described as 'chess on ice'... It's much more difficult than it looks on TV.
But it was never our national sport.
Although curling is most often associated with Canada, its origins are in Scotland.
It does look like a lot of fun, but a game that would take a lot of strategy. I would probably fall on my butt trying to do it.
Curling is a wonderful sport - often described as 'chess on ice'... It's much more difficult than it looks on TV.
But it was never our national sport.
Although curling is most often associated with Canada, its origins are in Scotland.
It does look like a lot of fun, but a game that would take a lot of strategy. I would probably fall on my butt trying to do it.
Yes - most people do fall on their butt when they first try it. This happens mostly because they think it will be easy - because it looks so easy and smooth on TV. But they quickly realize that sliding out on ice while keeping your balance is not at all easy - let alone trying to aim a 'rock' in a particular direction and at a precise speed while sliding.
Not to mention that they're using muscles that they only discover exist once they try to slide!
Deuce wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 7:44 pm
Curling is a wonderful sport - often described as 'chess on ice'... It's much more difficult than it looks on TV.
But it was never our national sport.
Although curling is most often associated with Canada, its origins are in Scotland.
It does look like a lot of fun, but a game that would take a lot of strategy. I would probably fall on my butt trying to do it.
Yes - most people do fall on their butt when they first try it. This happens mostly because they think it will be easy - because it looks so easy and smooth on TV. But they quickly realize that sliding out on ice while keeping your balance is not at all easy - let alone trying to aim a 'rock' in a particular direction and at a precise speed while sliding.
Not to mention that they're using muscles that they only discover exist once they try to slide!
I wonder if I could even push that heavy stone all the way down the ice?
by ptmcmahon You could - remember it's going to slide because it's on ice.
Doing with any kind of precision is the hard part
by Cuckoo4Coco
ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 3:46 am
You could - remember it's going to slide because it's on ice.
Doing with any kind of precision is the hard part
I could just see me pushing that stone and tipping over on the ice trying to slide.
by ptmcmahon You won’t slip pushing the stone since you’ll be low to the ice.
But if you have to sweep it… that’s where it gets tricky
by Cuckoo4Coco
ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 3:40 pm
You won’t slip pushing the stone since you’ll be low to the ice.
But if you have to sweep it… that’s where it gets tricky
That does look really tricky going down the ice with that broom.
by Deuce
ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 3:40 pm
You won’t slip pushing the stone since you’ll be low to the ice.
But if you have to sweep it… that’s where it gets tricky
No... I've seen many, many people 'tip over' or fall while sliding out with the rock. Mostly newbies - but also established players, including 'pro' players at times.
It's more difficult than it appears.
by Cuckoo4Coco If I knew of a place where they had Curling, I would have to give this a try.
by Deuce
Cuckoo4Coco wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 8:07 pm
If I knew of a place where they had Curling, I would have to give this a try.
Search for a curling club in your general area.
Many clubs have an 'open house' type of thing at the beginning of the season (in September or early October), where people can come in and try it. There may be less of the 'open house' things happening because of COVID-19 - but it doesn't hurt to look for a club in your area and see if they do the 'open house' thing. It'll either be indicated on their website or you can call them.
by ptmcmahon I googled Maryland curling and got two results... not sure if either is close
Both seem to have some learn to curl/intro sessions held
Personally, I'm a generation between curlers - my Dad used to weekly when work let him, and my son is going into his fourth (fifth?) year of it now. Although I watch my more than my share on TV. We had so many conversations about it they even gave us our own curling thread Maybe in my later years if I have time I can take it up...I've done it once or twice and it was a blast. I'd definitely be a sweeper though, not the "skip" who calls all the shots and usually has to make the toughest shots.
by Cuckoo4Coco
ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 10:16 pm
I googled Maryland curling and got two results... not sure if either is close
Both seem to have some learn to curl/intro sessions held
Personally, I'm a generation between curlers - my Dad used to weekly when work let him, and my son is going into his fourth (fifth?) year of it now. Although I watch my more than my share on TV. We had so many conversations about it they even gave us our own curling thread Maybe in my later years if I have time I can take it up...I've done it once or twice and it was a blast. I'd definitely be a sweeper though, not the "skip" who calls all the shots and usually has to make the toughest shots.
The Laurel one is an hour away from where I live and the Easton one is 90 minutes away. Not sure if mom would drive me that distance weekly, especially with all my tennis but it does sound like fun and great to know it is around.
Both seem to have some learn to curl/intro sessions held
Personally, I'm a generation between curlers - my Dad used to weekly when work let him, and my son is going into his fourth (fifth?) year of it now. Although I watch my more than my share on TV. We had so many conversations about it they even gave us our own curling thread Maybe in my later years if I have time I can take it up...I've done it once or twice and it was a blast. I'd definitely be a sweeper though, not the "skip" who calls all the shots and usually has to make the toughest shots.
The Laurel one is an hour away from where I live and the Easton one is 90 minutes away. Not sure if mom would drive me that distance weekly, especially with all my tennis but it does sound like fun and great to know it is around.
Just go once to try it.
The only way she'd have to drive you regularly is if you absolutely fall in love with it (like I did).
I always enjoyed watching it on TV, but I only began playing at about age 40. As most people do, I began as a front end player, and was Skipping part time by my 5th year (and then Skipping pretty much full time).
I did miss sweeping when I was Skipping - I love to sweep - I take pride in it, and it's great exercize. But I enjoy Skipping even more... trying to figure out the shots and strategy, and having the pressure shots at the end of each end...
Both seem to have some learn to curl/intro sessions held
Personally, I'm a generation between curlers - my Dad used to weekly when work let him, and my son is going into his fourth (fifth?) year of it now. Although I watch my more than my share on TV. We had so many conversations about it they even gave us our own curling thread Maybe in my later years if I have time I can take it up...I've done it once or twice and it was a blast. I'd definitely be a sweeper though, not the "skip" who calls all the shots and usually has to make the toughest shots.
The Laurel one is an hour away from where I live and the Easton one is 90 minutes away. Not sure if mom would drive me that distance weekly, especially with all my tennis but it does sound like fun and great to know it is around.
Just go once to try it.
The only way she'd have to drive you regularly is if you absolutely fall in love with it (like I did).
I always enjoyed watching it on TV, but I only began playing at about age 40. As most people do, I began as a front end player, and was Skipping part time by my 5th year (and then Skipping pretty much full time).
I did miss sweeping when I was Skipping - I love to sweep - I take pride in it, and it's great exercize. But I enjoy Skipping even more... trying to figure out the shots and strategy, and having the pressure shots at the end of each end...
I do enjoy watching it on TV, especially the strategy they use. Another game I enjoy watching is Cornhole which is actually quite fun to play and not as easy as it looks.
by ti-amie If you are into photography or sports in general the pictures here are simply wonderful. Some are gruesome (boxing, and surprisingly gymnastics) but for the most part they're great.
by Cuckoo4Coco
ti-amie wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:00 pm
If you are into photography or sports in general the pictures here are simply wonderful. Some are gruesome (boxing, and surprisingly gymnastics) but for the most part they're great.
This photo is so awesome.
by ponchi101 Hard to disagree with the #1 shot.
#2 & #3: The biathlon, and the cricket.
And all the fighting shots are just proof those are not sports. Truly barbaric.
by ti-amie
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:11 pm
Hard to disagree with the #1 shot.
#2 & #3: The biathlon, and the cricket.
And all the fighting shots are just proof those are not sports. Truly barbaric.
The gymnasts legs though!
by ti-amie
by ponchi101 These people are so greedy they could announce the Year End championship would be called "The Khashogi Cup" and all they would ask would be "What is the prize money?".
by ponchi101
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 2:49 am
These people are so greedy they could announce the Year End championship would be called "The Khashogi Cup" and all they would ask would be "What is the prize money?".
I have to correct my post. It seems the meeting will be on how to DEAL WITH the LIV, not how to run it. Woods seems to be leading a charge against it.
by ti-amie
by Owendonovan Chess and poker having some issues these days.
U.S. Chess Grandmaster Allegedly Cheated Over 100 Times, per Report
An alleged cheating controversy has rocked the chess world, and according to an investigation by Chess.com that was reviewed by The Wall Street Journal, chess grandmaster Hans Niemann, at the center of the dispute, has an extensive cheating history. https://www.si.com/more-sports/2022/10/ ... per-report
Poker World Rocked by Cheating Allegations During Live Stream Show
Garrett Adelstein accused winner Robbi Jade Lew of cheating during the live stream. Lew won $269,000, but she later gave the money back and accused Adelstein of bullying her. There was no evidence that Lew cheated, but her returning the money off camera sparked speculation. https://www.si.com/extra-mustard/2022/1 ... tream-show
by Owendonovanhttps://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/04/spor ... power.html
"Soccer Let Women Down Whether They Spoke Up or Not
A report on dysfunction in women’s soccer showed that abuse of players in the National Women’s Soccer League was “an open secret.” Players had nowhere to turn"
Shouldn't we be assuming all Womens/girls sports are rife with this kind of abuse? Gymnastics, Swimming/Diving, Equestrian, Soccer, Martial Arts, have all had high profile, outrageous abuse exposed, along with whatever else I'm forgetting, or is yet to be "discovered" and take appropriate actions?
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:11 pm
Hard to disagree with the #1 shot.
#2 & #3: The biathlon, and the cricket.
And all the fighting shots are just proof those are not sports. Truly barbaric.
The gymnasts legs though!
I don't know what's wrong with the gymnasts' leg, but it's not from gymnastics (the small round scab/scar things). Looks like a funky treatment maybe.
by Deuce
Owendonovan wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:50 am
Chess and poker having some issues these days.
U.S. Chess Grandmaster Allegedly Cheated Over 100 Times, per Report
An alleged cheating controversy has rocked the chess world, and according to an investigation by Chess.com that was reviewed by The Wall Street Journal, chess grandmaster Hans Niemann, at the center of the dispute, has an extensive cheating history. https://www.si.com/more-sports/2022/10/ ... per-report
Poker World Rocked by Cheating Allegations During Live Stream Show
Garrett Adelstein accused winner Robbi Jade Lew of cheating during the live stream. Lew won $269,000, but she later gave the money back and accused Adelstein of bullying her. There was no evidence that Lew cheated, but her returning the money off camera sparked speculation. https://www.si.com/extra-mustard/2022/1 ... tream-show
Fishing, too...
Wherever there are human beings and there is money to be made, there will be some form of dishonesty/corruption...
(Some salty language in the video within the link.)
.
by Deuce
Owendonovan wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:57 amhttps://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/04/spor ... power.html
"Soccer Let Women Down Whether They Spoke Up or Not
A report on dysfunction in women’s soccer showed that abuse of players in the National Women’s Soccer League was “an open secret.” Players had nowhere to turn"
Shouldn't we be assuming all Womens/girls sports are rife with this kind of abuse? Gymnastics, Swimming/Diving, Equestrian, Soccer, Martial Arts, have all had high profile, outrageous abuse exposed, along with whatever else I'm forgetting, or is yet to be "discovered" and take appropriate actions?
We can't universally condemn all women's/girl's sports where there is a male authority figure, as obviously some of these people are good people. To falsely accuse, or to find guilt solely by association - or position - is not right.
Aren't you a physical education teacher? I'm sure you'd not like it if people automatically assumed that you are guilty of inappropriate sexual behaviour with the girls in your class.
We need to be vigilant and to keep our eyes and ears open... but to universally condemn is not the right path.
Owendonovan wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:57 amhttps://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/04/spor ... power.html
"Soccer Let Women Down Whether They Spoke Up or Not
A report on dysfunction in women’s soccer showed that abuse of players in the National Women’s Soccer League was “an open secret.” Players had nowhere to turn"
Shouldn't we be assuming all Womens/girls sports are rife with this kind of abuse? Gymnastics, Swimming/Diving, Equestrian, Soccer, Martial Arts, have all had high profile, outrageous abuse exposed, along with whatever else I'm forgetting, or is yet to be "discovered" and take appropriate actions?
We can't universally condemn all women's/girl's sports where there is a male authority figure, as obviously some of these people are good people. To falsely accuse, or to find guilt solely by association - or position - is not right.
Aren't you a physical education teacher? I'm sure you'd not like it if people automatically assumed that you are guilty of inappropriate sexual behaviour with the girls in your class.
We need to be vigilant and to keep our eyes and ears open... but to universally condemn is not the right path.
Yes, I agree we can't universally condemn all of these sports with men running the shows, but maybe something more in line with an independent commission of some sort that monitors Womens/girls sports in some honest way. SafeSport has proven itself impotent, whistleblowing however much encouraged often is weaponized against the whistleblower.
Yes, I do work as a physical ed teacher, but would be fine with any level of scrutiny as most anyone in my position should be. I left coaching gymnastics after my complaints of athlete mistreatment were framed as me trying to cause trouble. I, along with a couple other coaches, was then made very unwelcome at the last gymnastics gym I coached at for supporting a group of 30+young women/girls who rightfully called out a coach who was suspended for abusive behavior. Something has to give, I don't know what it is, but we can't as a society allow much more of this and still consider ourselves civilized. Stealing a child or young adults innocence is just unforgivable to me.
Owendonovan wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:57 amhttps://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/04/spor ... power.html
"Soccer Let Women Down Whether They Spoke Up or Not
A report on dysfunction in women’s soccer showed that abuse of players in the National Women’s Soccer League was “an open secret.” Players had nowhere to turn"
Shouldn't we be assuming all Womens/girls sports are rife with this kind of abuse? Gymnastics, Swimming/Diving, Equestrian, Soccer, Martial Arts, have all had high profile, outrageous abuse exposed, along with whatever else I'm forgetting, or is yet to be "discovered" and take appropriate actions?
We can't universally condemn all women's/girl's sports where there is a male authority figure, as obviously some of these people are good people. To falsely accuse, or to find guilt solely by association - or position - is not right.
Aren't you a physical education teacher? I'm sure you'd not like it if people automatically assumed that you are guilty of inappropriate sexual behaviour with the girls in your class.
We need to be vigilant and to keep our eyes and ears open... but to universally condemn is not the right path.
Yes, I agree we can't universally condemn all of these sports with men running the shows, but maybe something more in line with an independent commission of some sort that monitors Womens/girls sports in some honest way. SafeSport has proven itself impotent, whistleblowing however much encouraged often is weaponized against the whistleblower.
Yes, I do work as a physical ed teacher, but would be fine with any level of scrutiny as most anyone in my position should be. I left coaching gymnastics after my complaints of athlete mistreatment were framed as me trying to cause trouble(this was pre-Larry Nassar). I, along with a couple other coaches, was then made very unwelcome at the last gymnastics gym I coached at for supporting a group of 30+young women/girls who rightfully called out a coach who was suspended for abusive behavior. Something has to give, I don't know what it is, but we can't as a society allow much more of this and still consider ourselves civilized. Stealing a child or young adults innocence is just unforgivable to me.
Owendonovan wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:57 amhttps://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/04/spor ... power.html
"Soccer Let Women Down Whether They Spoke Up or Not
A report on dysfunction in women’s soccer showed that abuse of players in the National Women’s Soccer League was “an open secret.” Players had nowhere to turn"
Shouldn't we be assuming all Womens/girls sports are rife with this kind of abuse? Gymnastics, Swimming/Diving, Equestrian, Soccer, Martial Arts, have all had high profile, outrageous abuse exposed, along with whatever else I'm forgetting, or is yet to be "discovered" and take appropriate actions?
We can't universally condemn all women's/girl's sports where there is a male authority figure, as obviously some of these people are good people. To falsely accuse, or to find guilt solely by association - or position - is not right.
Aren't you a physical education teacher? I'm sure you'd not like it if people automatically assumed that you are guilty of inappropriate sexual behaviour with the girls in your class.
We need to be vigilant and to keep our eyes and ears open... but to universally condemn is not the right path.
Yes, I agree we can't universally condemn all of these sports with men running the shows, but maybe something more in line with an independent commission of some sort that monitors Womens/girls sports in some honest way. SafeSport has proven itself impotent, whistleblowing however much encouraged often is weaponized against the whistleblower.
Yes, I do work as a physical ed teacher, but would be fine with any level of scrutiny as most anyone in my position should be. I left coaching gymnastics after my complaints of athlete mistreatment were framed as me trying to cause trouble. I, along with a couple other coaches, was then made very unwelcome at the last gymnastics gym I coached at for supporting a group of 30+young women/girls who rightfully called out a coach who was suspended for abusive behavior. Something has to give, I don't know what it is, but we can't as a society allow much more of this and still consider ourselves civilized. Stealing a child or young adults innocence is just unforgivable to me.
Serious question. I am lost in this subject.
Should banning male coaches from female sports be considered? Certainly an extreme position, but should that be an option?
by Owendonovan It isn't only men, the coach suspended from the gym I once worked at is a woman. Men commit most of the sexual abuse, but women have their share of emotional and physical abuse. I don't know who would oversee these systemic changes that need to take place when you've also got parents wittingly or unwittingly contributing to the abuse. There are typically viewing areas, be it an indoor gym or an outdoor field where the abuse, typically verbal, is happening right in front of the parents often under the guise of "he or she is a tough coach, that why they have such success", when honestly the success usually comes from a place of fear, not ambition.
by jimrim Who do you think will win the Champions League 2002-2023?
I'm sure it will be FC Bayern Munich
by Deuce
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 3:01 pm
Serious question. I am lost in this subject.
Should banning male coaches from female sports be considered? Certainly an extreme position, but should that be an option?
No.
by Deuce You figure it was bound to start unravelling, huh?...
But maybe it's happening a little sooner than anticipated...
Deuce wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 12:57 am
You figure it was bound to start unravelling, huh?...
But maybe it's happening a little sooner than anticipated...
by ponchi101 So, the Madame left the brothel.
They'll find another.
by JazzNU If it's the exec I'm thinking of, I could see this being the beginning of the end. Many they'll right the ship, but when this supposed cash cow league starts getting funny about money, that's not a good sign.
by Deuce A nice, good news story about soccer is a welcome change...
This is a nice initiative. I hope it spreads to other leagues, and encourages players to do the right thing, rather than to try to get away with some sort of manipulation, as is far too common in soccer...
by Suliso Most of you are probably not familiar with this sport, popular in Europe and parts of Asia. This particular video is highlights of WC QF's between Denmark (2x defending champions) and Hungary. In the other QF's Spain def Norway, France def Germany and Sweden def Egypt
by ponchi101 Much better than football (to me).
by JazzNU
by ponchi101 Good for her
by Deuce This is interesting...
The golfers who've stayed with the PGA while being critical of their peers who left for LIV are now revealing themselves as utter hypocrites who are just as greedy as are those they've condemned for going to LIV.
As human beings value money and material more and more, I'm afraid that it's unfortunately just a matter of time before tennis also goes in this greedy and selfish direction.
by JazzNU Also some extreme East Coast bias at play there. You hear it often on sports radio, the level of don't care of what time it is on the West Coast is pretty insane the older you get apparently, they just want that game to be played earlier enough for their own personal bedtime, who cares if school hasn't been dismissed locally just yet.
by ti-amie The Athletic
@athletic@sportsfeed.me
Diamond Sports, parent of Bally Sports Regional Networks, files for bankruptcy protection https://theathletic.com/4310553/2023/03 ... ankruptcy/ Diamond Sports, parent of Bally Sports Regional Networks, filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection on Tuesday, but said in a statement its 19 regional sports channels would continue to operate unimpeded. Here’s what you need to know:
Diamond’s own parent, Sinclair, staggered under more than $8 billion of debt from its 2019 acquisit...
by ti-amie
by skatingfan
by ponchi101 I would say that settles the case. Russia should not be allowed to compete in Paris.
by Owendonovan
ti-amie wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 1:28 am
The Athletic
@athletic@sportsfeed.me
Diamond Sports, parent of Bally Sports Regional Networks, files for bankruptcy protection https://theathletic.com/4310553/2023/03 ... ankruptcy/ Diamond Sports, parent of Bally Sports Regional Networks, filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection on Tuesday, but said in a statement its 19 regional sports channels would continue to operate unimpeded. Here’s what you need to know:
Diamond’s own parent, Sinclair, staggered under more than $8 billion of debt from its 2019 acquisit...
Sinclair is fairly evil, I'm fine with them losing their shirt.
ti-amie wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 1:28 am
The Athletic
@athletic@sportsfeed.me
Diamond Sports, parent of Bally Sports Regional Networks, files for bankruptcy protection https://theathletic.com/4310553/2023/03 ... ankruptcy/ Diamond Sports, parent of Bally Sports Regional Networks, filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection on Tuesday, but said in a statement its 19 regional sports channels would continue to operate unimpeded. Here’s what you need to know:
Diamond’s own parent, Sinclair, staggered under more than $8 billion of debt from its 2019 acquisit...
Sinclair is fairly evil, I'm fine with them losing their shirt.
I hate them big time, probably more than others because I've lived in a Sinclair controlled area and it was hell, but I want to keep Tennis Channel and don't have faith that the channel wouldn't drastically change with another owner, assuming there would even be another owner.
ti-amie wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 1:28 am
The Athletic
@athletic@sportsfeed.me
Diamond Sports, parent of Bally Sports Regional Networks, files for bankruptcy protection https://theathletic.com/4310553/2023/03 ... ankruptcy/ Diamond Sports, parent of Bally Sports Regional Networks, filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection on Tuesday, but said in a statement its 19 regional sports channels would continue to operate unimpeded. Here’s what you need to know:
Diamond’s own parent, Sinclair, staggered under more than $8 billion of debt from its 2019 acquisit...
Sinclair is fairly evil, I'm fine with them losing their shirt.
I hate them big time, probably more than others because I've lived in a Sinclair controlled area and it was hell, but I want to keep Tennis Channel and don't have faith that the channel wouldn't drastically change with another owner, assuming there would even be another owner.
I agree, and wonder what would've happened if TennisTV had remained a place to find both ATP and WTA matches. If TC goes under those of us in the States don't have access to WTA-TV (does it still exist?) so we'd end up like Ponchi and subject to the whims of a big outlet like ESPN.
Sinclair is fairly evil, I'm fine with them losing their shirt.
I hate them big time, probably more than others because I've lived in a Sinclair controlled area and it was hell, but I want to keep Tennis Channel and don't have faith that the channel wouldn't drastically change with another owner, assuming there would even be another owner.
I agree, and wonder what would've happened if TennisTV had remained a place to find both ATP and WTA matches. If TC goes under those of us in the States don't have access to WTA-TV (does it still exist?) so we'd end up like Ponchi and subject to the whims of a big outlet like ESPN.
^ Or simply be very basically resourceful and find free streaming for virtually any match you want to see.
I agree, and wonder what would've happened if TennisTV had remained a place to find both ATP and WTA matches. If TC goes under those of us in the States don't have access to WTA-TV (does it still exist?) so we'd end up like Ponchi and subject to the whims of a big outlet like ESPN.
Sinclair is fairly evil, I'm fine with them losing their shirt.
I hate them big time, probably more than others because I've lived in a Sinclair controlled area and it was hell, but I want to keep Tennis Channel and don't have faith that the channel wouldn't drastically change with another owner, assuming there would even be another owner.
I agree, and wonder what would've happened if TennisTV had remained a place to find both ATP and WTA matches. If TC goes under those of us in the States don't have access to WTA-TV (does it still exist?) so we'd end up like Ponchi and subject to the whims of a big outlet like ESPN.
Yes, and let us not forget that that BeIN Sports period was ROUGH. Not looking for a repeat. Ted Robinson was so happy that period was over and said on-air that it felt like the WTA was in the Witness Protection Program during that time and it was a hilariously accurate description to me.
by Fastbackss Couldn't get a picture to load, but the but Tibetan Mastiff at Westminster (being held at Flushing Meadows) is named Rafa after Senor Nadal
Fastbackss wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 2:20 am
Couldn't get a picture to load, but the but Tibetan Mastiff at Westminster (being held at Flushing Meadows) is named Rafa after Senor Nadal
by ponchi101 The Tibetan Mastiff.
Main nutrition staple: rabbits. Fat rabbits.
If traveling in packs, they lack to snack on bears.
(That's a beautiful animal).
by ti-amie It is beautiful.
by ti-amie‘We have to be more cautious and careful’: Sports media on Twitter’s long, slow demise
"It took a long time for Twitter to become that place for sports, and it will probably take more time to kill it..."
By Sean Keeley on 05/11/2023
A little over six months ago, Elon Musk finalized his $44 billion deal to buy Twitter. Since then, the former richest person in the world has firebombed his reputation and seemingly accelerated the social media platform’s demise with a series of short-sighted decisions that have eroded Twitter’s trust, value, and revenue.
Back in November, we spoke to a collection of sports media members to gauge their feelings about what Twitter means to them, what their concerns might be around Elon’s tinkering, and what the sports media landscape might look like without the social media platform. Now that we have six months’ worth of data to look at, we wanted to speak with sports media folks once more to see how different those sentiments might be in a post-verified world.
This time around, Awful Announcing spoke with ESPN’s David Hale, CBS Sports Radio host Amy Lawrence, Sports Illustrated’s & SEC Network’s Richard Johnson, NFL analyst and media personality Lindsey Ok, AL.com sports editor Andrew Hammond, Syracuse.com’s Brent Axe, and Extra Points newsletter publisher Matt Brown.
As the only member of the panel that we spoke with last time, Hale offered us a chance to compare the sentiment from the early Elon ownership days to now. In November, he said, “I think the most likely outcome is that Twitter becomes more about communities — engaging with the people whom you find valuable and blocking/muting the ones you don’t — than it might’ve been before.”
But what about now?
“I figured when Elon Musk took over, he was likely to make a lot of things worse, but I also hoped he’d make a few things better — injecting some much-needed innovation into the platform,” said Hale. “That’s one of the reasons I thought the idea of “communities” could be something that developed, with Twitter adapting to demand from its audience akin to Facebook Groups. Circles actually seemed like a step toward that, but it’s gotten no legs, mostly because the bad Elon stuff has so badly outweighed the… OK, maybe there hasn’t been any actual good stuff. I’ve largely followed my own advice here though, and I’ve opted out of viewing the stuff I don’t like, my list of follows has probably gotten smaller, and for the most part, my feed looks the same as it always has.”
Not everyone shared that hopefulness when Elon took over, as many of the others we spoke with had hoped for the best while expecting the worst.
“I didn’t think the thing would go bust overnight, but I did think it would do just about what’s happened: intermittent flickers of outages and glitches that show there is little to nobody at the wheel on a daily basis,” said Johnson. “That seems like it’s about where we’re at now.”
“When Elon bought Twitter (as a joke) we all knew he wasn’t serious and he’s shown he’s not serious for one second,” said Hammond. “My expectation is kind of where things are at now, a complete mess. He’s basically Cousin Greg from Succession if you actually gave him the keys to the kingdom, no actual ‘how-to’ guides, and made him an even worse person.”
“I was certainly intrigued,” said Axe. “Love or hate Elon Musk, the guy is considered one of the most innovative minds on the planet. Now? I feel sad that he’s basically just another troll on his own platform.”
“I honestly didn’t know what to expect, because Elon says all sorts of things and then doesn’t actually do them,” said Brown. “I sort of figured he wouldn’t actually buy the service right up until he walked into the office for the first day. You could have told me just about anything, from a meltdown even worse than what’s already happened to Twitter actually getting better, and I would have believed it. Now, of course, I have absolutely no confidence that any of this is going to improve… because the guy fundamentally doesn’t understand what he bought, and he hates the people (journalists, weird Twitter posters, and brands) that actually make the dang thing run.”
Taking a step back, it’s worth noting Twitter’s importance to many people in the sports media as they were building their careers, and why its potential end feels so frustrating or disappointing.
“Twitter is essentially the reason I was able to take this full-time,” said Ok. “It’s the easiest way to get your thoughts out there – and the best part for me is live-tweeting during games/up-to-the-minute updates. I got my start in sports media tweeting about football and I’m here because of it.”
“Twitter has been invaluable as a broadcaster and journalist because news BREAKS there,” said Lawrence. “The site is always open while I’m on the air, and my producer and I pull audio clips from other accounts to use as talking points or conversation starters. Being on Twitter also offers a wealth of connections with fellow broadcasters and members of the sports media.”
“I can’t overstate how important it’s been,” said Brown. “I didn’t go to an elite journalism school (or shoot, any journalism school), and fell into sports media by accident via SB Nation. I didn’t have access to the traditional pathways of getting bylines, building sources, and gaining an audience…Twitter helped me do that. Until very recently, I’d DM sources about as often as I’d text or email them, and prior to Elon, Twitter was the No. 1 referral source I had for new newsletter subscribers. I would not have a career without it. Of course, it also ruined my brain and sent me to therapy, but hey, occupational hazard of the business, right?”
“I don’t think Twitter is how I got ‘discovered’ but I do think it’s how I discovered multiple things that shaped me professionally,” said Johnson. “I found a community of college football creators who treated the sport with an irreverence I immediately gravitated to. Eventually, I got to work with many of those people in my days at SB Nation and I wouldn’t have traded that for anything in the world. There is value in how the service amplified new voices in its early days and it opened me up to a brand new world of football analytics — for better and for worse — as well as scheme Twitter in many of the coaches that I follow. I can’t sit here and say I’m the journalist I am today without.”
“Twitter has been everything for my career. From opportunities as a blogger to podcasts to actual jobs,” said Hammond. “I mean, I can’t tell you how many people have the same story. It’s truly been a life-changing app, crazy enough.”
Unfortunately, a lot of what made Twitter feel valuable or essential to the sports media process has been going away over the last six months as satire has died, several news organizations have left the platform, and far-right accounts have surged. Many people have had to change their relationship with Twitter and that absolutely includes some sports media members.
“I am undoubtedly spending less time on my main Twitterfeed,” said Johnson. “Some of that is natural because the offseason allows me to unplug to an extent, but some of that is forced on my end and perhaps it has some to do with the degradation of the service. Mostly I think it has to do with just being bummed out by the combo of doom-scrolling, performative hot takes, or the main character pile-on type stuff.”
“Twitter was never very good at drawing raw traffic, as most other sportswriters would tell you, but it could be very good at brand and audience-building,” said Brown. “For the first two and a half years of Extra Points, our #1 source of new subscribers was Twitter, and for many months, it wasn’t close. That pipeline has almost completely dried up over the last few months. I still have to use Twitter as a tool for engaging with my existing audience and existing source network, but I’ve had to spend more money and more time on creating other audience development engines… engines that right now, don’t work as well as Twitter.
“The thing that really set off alarm bells was how Twitter, if only for a little while, started nuking the reach for Substack posts. Today it’s Substack, tomorrow it’s Beehiiv because somebody there said something mean about Catturd2 or whatever, and maybe in a few months, it’s LinkedIn or Spotify or something else. That unpredictability and capriciousness of the platform and its ruler make it almost impossible to trust it as a valuable business tool.”
For some, the changes on Twitter haven’t been as stark and have amounted more to tweaks in the experience.
“It hasn’t changed much, but I have noticed that people that you’re used to interacting with either are not on as much, or they’re harder to find on Twitter,” said Hammond. “But there’s been a change in the ‘Twitter atmosphere for sure’.”
“I may have distanced myself from it a bit — or that might just be because it’s a slower time for college sports,” said Hale. “During the NCAA basketball tournaments, for example, I was still pretty glued to Twitter to keep tabs on what was happening across the country and gauge reactions in real time. The “taunting” in the LSU-Iowa women’s game actually felt much like old Twitter — overreactions, overreactions to those reactions, funny gifs, and a bunch of people either yelling at no one or patting themselves on the back for being smarter than everyone else. It felt like home.”
One of the biggest issues to hit Twitter during Elon’s reign has been the change to the verification process, which stopped acting as a way to confirm who was who and turned it into a status symbol for people you don’t want to associate with (it appears Elon has since realized his mistake even if he won’t fix it). That’s impacted sports media members in various ways.
“The most obvious part for me was the loss of my verification – my tweets aren’t seen by as many people as they used to,” said Ok. “I have also had a long-time problem of people creating fake accounts of me or using my photos on their accounts. Now, that is easier to do (and has happened twice so far – once someone making an account to tweet horrible things, and once to promote a porn site with my face – neither of which I agreed to).”
“Professionally, we have to be more cautious and careful when it comes to Twitter now. With users able to purchase the blue checkmarks (and most public figures not having them anymore), it’s imperative to confirm and double-check that analysts, insiders, reporters, and potential guests are who they say they are,” said Lawrence. “My producer recently spotted a blue checkmark next to a user who identified as a team reporter during March Madness. As it turned out, the user was a college student who purchased his checkmark.”
“I was a little concerned about losing the blue check, but it hasn’t seemed to have made a difference,” said Axe.
The erosion and potential demise of Twitter had led to a rise in alternative social media platforms, including Mastodon, Post, Spoutible, Substack Notes, and Bluesky. While some political folks and others have migrated to these platforms, it doesn’t sound like the sports media world is in a rush to re-establish itself elsewhere.
“If Twitter turned off tomorrow, you wouldn’t catch me dead on anything else voluntarily,” said Johnson. “My Instagram is for friends and family, I don’t have TikTok, and the smartest thing I ever did was get rid of my Facebook before the 2016 election.”
“I have not turned my social media energy toward another platform, though we have tried to generate fresher content for our YouTube channel on a more consistent basis,” said Lawrence.
“I’m still mostly on Twitter because I don’t see an easier social media site to do the type of things that I do,” said Ok. “I’ve always been on Instagram and Patreon, but those are different types of media and don’t serve the same purpose for me.”
“I’ve had zero interest in any of the supposed alternatives beyond Substack Notes, which I think has some potential but feels either too nascent or too insider-y at the moment,” said Hale. “The thing I like about Twitter is that — despite Elon’s protests — it’s always been pretty democratic. I know fans that have more followers than I do. The non-journalists are a critical part of the larger conversation, and at this point, Notes doesn’t feel like it has that. It’s just the professionals talking to each other.”
“I am trying to do more on Instagram,” said Axe. “None of the upstarts appeal to me, though I do think Substack Notes has a chance to stick.”
“I use LinkedIn a lot more than I used to, which, as you can imagine, absolutely sucks…. but it’s where a chunk of my audience (and source network) lives,” said Brown. “I’ve also spent much more time getting into the weeds with SEO and platform-specific growth engines on Beehiiv (my newsletter hosting service), and we’ll probably have to spend money on ads and paid audience acquisition, something we didn’t have to do before Twitter.”
However this all shakes out, it’s hard to deny that many in the sports media world invested a lot of time and energy in building followings and communities on Twitter over the years. The inability to predict if those audiences will follow you elsewhere, and what is lost when your Twitter followers are gone, is something that weighs on many of their minds.
“I am concerned about losing that sense of community,” said Ok. “The live-tweeting of sports events is something that doesn’t happen everywhere. It’s like watching a game with a ton of people and that would definitely be lost, as I don’t think other sites have that capability yet.”
“One thing I’ve had to do though is figure out the best way to gather news so I can keep up for my actual job,” said Johnson. “Still trying to find the best mix of newsletters like D1ticker and services like Apple News. It’s a process, and it’s kinda funny to not get news in absolute real-time and feel like you’re missing some stuff or just behind. By now my relationships in sports media are real ones, so it’s people I see at events or can actually text and say hey.”
“I remain confident the conversations will continue, but honestly, I’m worried about losing my place within them,” said Hale. “I think sports fans as a whole will always find their place to talk — just as they did at bars or water coolers before social media. But Twitter has always been a good fit for me because it’s the written word, it’s real-time, it’s just light enough to be fun and just serious enough to feel important in big moments. That’s sort of my wheelhouse, and I just don’t think I, personally, would be able to engage on Facebook or YouTube or TikTok or whatever else comes up the same way I’ve done on Twitter.”
“That’s a risk all of us have in this business because just about every writer has to depend on platforms we don’t control,” said Brown. “If you’ve been doing this for the last decade, we already got screwed by Facebook. In the newsletter world, we sometimes get screwed by Apple and Google. And now, we’re getting screwed by Twitter.”
On the heels of the news that Twitter is now the home of Fox News cast-off Tucker Carlson, it certainly feels as though we’ve moved a little bit closer to the nadir of the platform. And yet there’s probably more dumb news to come next week. It’s hard to predict what Twitter will look like six days from now, let alone six months into the future, but we asked each of our sports media panelists to do their best.
“I still don’t think Twitter is circling the drain, but while most of the doomsayers have railed against some apocalyptic decision Elon might make (or has made), I think the real danger is apathy,” said Hale. “I find myself less interested in what’s happening on Twitter. I think others are either so frustrated by Twitter’s changes or so annoyed at the constant debate about Twitter’s changes that they slowly disengage. And at the end of the day, all social media functions by consuming attention. I think Twitter risks losing that slowly… and then all at once, as they say. I think the fact that the alternative platforms have largely failed to gain a ton of traction shows that there is something about Twitter, specifically, that people like and I do think that still exists. But for how much longer? I’m more pessimistic than I was six months ago.”
“I’m sure folks will find something,” said Johnson. “TikTok or whatever the next iteration will be if the government gets its way. But maybe it’s not such a bad thing that people in our industry move on and adapt… Social media has obviously changed the world, but bringing it down to sports media, perhaps a new dominant platform or at least the lack thereof will make the way we report on and interact with athletes better and more healthy for everyone.”
“I would hope they figure out the verification process, as I predict will we see some folks buy a checkmark to try to psyche people out and tweet untrue things, unfortunately,” said Ok. “I would also hope the rumor of potentially limiting non-paying Twitter users’ tweets to 25 tweets/day is not true, as that would severely limit sports media during events such as games and press conferences.”
“If the ship hasn’t sunk, we will be in a slow crawl back to whatever ‘normal’ Twitter was, if that’s even a thing.,” said Hammond. “As far as sports go, I’d hope we would give more journalists credit for actually doing the stories and not the content aggregating Twitter users living off of other people’s work.”
“I imagine more political writers, cultural writers, and big *brands* will spend less time on Twitter, and more brain-damaged, single-line paragraph, hustle-bro dipshits will move to Twitter… and that’s the content the company will try to promote,” said Brown. “Absent a massive technical problem, sportswriters will probably still be on Twitter…until they aren’t. It’ll just be a slow decline, rather than the massive shift we thought might happen a few months ago. It takes such a long time to make a social media network a true destination for a type of THING, and it’s a big chicken and egg problem…I t took a long time for Twitter to become that place for sports, and it will probably take more time to kill it, and more time to build something else. So in the meantime… it stinks. The website will work less, I’ll make less money, and I’ll see more garbage content that makes my eyes roll. But that’s the internet as an indie publisher for you.”
“In six months, I think the biggest change will be fewer users,” said Lawrence. “I don’t anticipate the site will die out or go away. But enough people are disgusted or frustrated with the amendments that they will leave. I wonder if and when my own accounts will find forward momentum again.”
“Six months from now? We’ll all still be on Twitter bitching about the next move Elon makes that will bring down Twitter but ends up not bringing down Twitter,” said Axe.
by ti-amiePGA TOUR, DP World Tour and PIF announce newly formed commercial entity to unify golf
Agreement establishes common goal to promote and grow the game globally for the benefit of all stakeholders, ends litigation
Written by Staff
@PGATOUR
PONTE VEDRA BEACH, Florida – The PGA TOUR, DP World Tour and the Public Investment Fund (PIF) today announced a landmark agreement to unify the game of golf, on a global basis. The parties have signed an agreement that combines PIF’s golf-related commercial businesses and rights (including LIV Golf) with the commercial businesses and rights of the PGA TOUR and DP World Tour into a new, collectively owned, for-profit entity to ensure that all stakeholders benefit from a model that delivers maximum excitement and competition among the game’s best players.
In addition, PIF will make a capital investment into the new entity to facilitate its growth and success. The new entity (name TBD) will implement a plan to grow these combined commercial businesses, drive greater fan engagement and accelerate growth initiatives already underway. With LIV Golf in the midst of its second, groundbreaking season, the PGA TOUR, DP World Tour and PIF will work together to best feature and grow team golf going forward.
Notably, today’s announcement will be followed by a mutually agreed end to all pending litigation between the participating parties. Further, the three organizations will work cooperatively and in good faith to establish a fair and objective process for any players who desire to re-apply for membership with the PGA TOUR or the DP World Tour following the completion of the 2023 season and for determining fair criteria and terms of re-admission, consistent with each Tour’s policies.
“After two years of disruption and distraction, this is a historic day for the game we all know and love,” said PGA TOUR Commissioner Jay Monahan. “This transformational partnership recognizes the immeasurable strength of the PGA TOUR’s history, legacy and pro-competitive model and combines with it the DP World Tour and LIV – including the team golf concept – to create an organization that will benefit golf’s players, commercial and charitable partners and fans. Going forward, fans can be confident that we will, collectively, deliver on the promise we’ve always made – to promote competition of the best in professional golf and that we are committed to securing and driving the game’s future.
“We are pleased to move forward, in step with LIV and PIF’s world-class investing experience, and I applaud PIF Governor Yasir Al-Rumayyan for his vision and collaborative and forward-thinking approach that is not just a solution to the rift in our game, but also a commitment to taking it to new heights. This will engender a new era in global golf, for the better.”
“Today is a very exciting day for this special game and the people it touches around the world,” said PIF Governor Yasir Al-Rumayyan. “We are proud to partner with the PGA TOUR to leverage PIF’s unparalleled success and track record of unlocking value and bringing innovation and global best practices to business and sectors worldwide. We are committed to unifying, promoting and growing the game of golf around the world and offering the highest-quality product to the many millions of long-time fans globally, while cultivating new fans.
“There is no question that the LIV model has been positively transformative for golf. We believe there are opportunities for the game to evolve while also maintaining its storied history and tradition. This partnership represents the best opportunity to extend and increase the impact of golf for all. We look forward to collaborating with Jay and Keith to bring the best version of the game to communities around the world.”
Under the terms of the agreement, the Board of Directors of the new entity will oversee and direct all the new entity’s golf-related commercial operations, businesses and investments. The new entity will work to ensure a cohesive schedule of events that will be exciting for fans, sponsors and all stakeholders. PIF will initially be the exclusive investor in the new entity, alongside the PGA TOUR, LIV Golf and the DP World Tour. Going forward, PIF will have the exclusive right to further invest in the new entity, including a right of first refusal on any capital that may be invested in the new entity, including into the PGA TOUR, LIV Golf and DP World Tour. The PGA TOUR will appoint a majority of the Board and hold a majority voting interest in the combined entity.
Separately, PGA TOUR Inc. will remain in place as a 501(c)(6) tax exempt organization and retains administrative oversight of events for those assets contributed by the PGA TOUR, including the sanctioning of events, the administration of the competition and rules, as well as all other “inside the ropes” responsibilities, with Jay Monahan as Commissioner and Ed Herlihy as PGA TOUR Policy Board Chairman. PIF’s Governor Yasir Al-Rumayyan will join the PGA TOUR Policy Board. The DP World Tour and LIV Golf will retain similar administrative oversight of events on their respective Tours.
The Board of Directors of the new commercial entity will include Al-Rumayyan as Chairman and Monahan as Chief Executive Officer; the new entity’s Board will also include an Executive Committee comprising Al-Rumayyan, Monahan, Herlihy and PGA TOUR Policy Board member Jimmy Dunne. The full Board will be announced at a later date, and it is anticipated that all three founding members will have representation.
Keith Pelley, Chief Executive of the DP World Tour, said “This is a momentous day. We are delighted to be able to not only reignite our relationship with PIF, but also to have the opportunity to build on our current Strategic Alliance partnership with the PGA TOUR. Together we will be stronger than ever and well positioned to continue to bring the game to all corners of the globe. To partner in this new entity and influence the growth of the game for all our DP World Tour members is energizing and exciting.”
All parties will work in the months to come to finalize terms of the agreement, with details to be announced in due course.
by JTContinental Michelle Wie West, once known for competing at men’s PGA events early in her career, is retiring from golf after this week’s US Open
by ponchi101 Super promising career, that did not reach those almost-impossible expectations.
by ti-amie
by meganfernandez Anyone watching women's World Cup? Is there a different thread? I'm wondering what the big games/matchups are.
by ponchi101
meganfernandez wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 1:38 pm
Anyone watching women's World Cup? Is there a different thread? I'm wondering what the big games/matchups are.
Haven't seen a topic for it, but you are of course welcomed to start it.
by ti-amie Haiti holding England to one goal is a huge upset at the women's World Cup. I think the one goal was on a penalty at that?
by ti-amie
by skatingfan
ti-amie wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 9:40 pm
Haiti holding England to one goal is a huge upset at the women's World Cup. I think the one goal was on a penalty at that?
It was, and in fact it was a penalty redo after the Haitian goal keeper left her line prior to the first try.
by patrick Vietnam holding USA to 3 goals was an accomplishment to me besides the Haiti effort
by ti-amie Jamaica did not roll over and play dead either I heard.
by ti-amieUkraine’s top fencer disqualified from world championships after refusing to shake hands with Russian opponent
By Svitlana Vlasova and Tim Lister, CNN
Updated 11:39 AM EDT, Fri July 28, 2023
Olga Kharlan of Ukraine (L) faces Anna Smirnova of Russia, who is registered as an Individual neutral athlete.
CNN
—
The leader of Ukraine’s national fencing team, Olga Kharlan, has been disqualified from participating in the world championships after she refused to shake hands with Anna Smirnova, who is from Russia.
Kharlan had just beaten Smirnova at the tournament in Milan, but rather than shake hands the Ukrainian offered her sabre to tap blades. Smirnova then walked away before staging a sit-down protest for about 45 minutes.
Smirnova was competing as an individual neutral athele as official Russian participation in such tournaments is outlawed.
Ukrainian Sports Minister, Vadym Guttsait, said on Facebook that he was proud of Kharlan, adding: “Your performance is an example of strength, will and love for Ukraine! Stay strong! The main victory of the country and yours will come soon.”
Kharlan is a four-time individual world champion and four-time Olympic medallist.
Mikhailo Ilyashev, President of the Ukrainian Fencing Federation, told Ukrainian television that Ukraine would protest the decision, saying the referee had not disqualified Kharlan, who was banned later.
“We hope that this (appeal) will be completed in a few days. But it’s out of the question for her to be returned to this competition. In this case, we will ensure that this black card is cancelled, because it is a disqualification that will entail the impossibility of her competing in the team competition.”
An official of the International Fencing Federation (FIE) speaks Smirnova as she sits on the fencing strip.
He said Kharlan’s disqualification would make it more difficult for her to qualify for the Olympics and it was “very important for us that this disqualification is lifted before the team competition, because she is very strong and without her, it is unlikely that our team will be able to go far and score many points in this competition.”
The International Fencing Federation has not offered any account of the decision on its website or social media accounts. But the refusal to shake hands after a contest results in a black card and expulsion, according to federation rules.
The issue of Ukrainians and Russians not shaking hands in sport is not confined to fencing – Ukrainian tennis star Marta Kostyuk, who is from Kyiv, said at the start of the year that she would not shake hands with Russian or Belarusian players while the war rages in her country, along with Ukrainian Lesia Tsurenko.
Kostyuk was booed at the French Open when she refused to meet Belarus’ Aryna Sabalenka at the net. Sabalenka condemned the booing and said she understands why Ukrainian players won’t shake her hand.
Meanwhile, Ukrainian tennis player Elina Svitolina took to Twitter to support Kharlan, writing: “We are not shaking hands with Russian and Belarusian athletes. That is our position! I call on international sports organisations and federations to respect our decision!”
She added that “All our love and respect goes to @olgakharlan.”
by ponchi101 And the world of sports continues to accept this charade of Russian athletes competing as "neutral".
Let's see what will happen at the Olympics. Won't matter to me as I never watch them, but Russia will be there. Blank flag and all.
by ponchi101 Formula 1.
Max Verstappen, two time defending champion, just won his 8th consecutive race of the season, stretching Red Bull's dominance to 13 straight wins, starting with the final race of last year's championship. This was a guy that won 10 races between 2015 and 2020, and now has won 35 in three seasons after moving to Red Bull.
That is one sport that has truly make the athlete totally disposable. It is simply the car. Second in the standings? Checo Perez, his teammate.
by ptmcmahon Ouch. Canada loses 4-0 to Australia to go out at group stage. They didn't look very good in the bits I saw them ... but wasn't expecting this bad a result. A draw would have been enough to go through.
by skatingfan
ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 4:16 pm
Ouch. Canada loses 4-0 to Australia to go out at group stage. They didn't look very good in the bits I saw them ... but wasn't expecting this bad a result. A draw would have been enough to go through.
With everything that happened this year, this world cup was always going to rough, and a game against the home team was a recipe for disaster.
by ashkor87 On watching Youtube Highlights:
there are lies, d-- lies and highlight videos.. unfortunately, that is all I get to see most of the time, in tennis -
this is a cricket story (i happened to be at the airport, waiting for my flight, not that I watch much cricket)
I remember once I was watching the great Australan fast bowler Glenn McGrath bowling to England's captain Nasser Hussain, known as the best opener in the world at the time.. McGrath, operating with the new ball, was bowling on a lifeless pitch, getting no help at all from the pitch - he bowled ball after ball, 4 that I saw, a foot outside the off-stump. Nasser calmly let them all go, and I was thinking - what an idiot McGrath is - he is wasting the new ball - Nasser knows where his off-stump is, he is not going to take the bait and nibble at the ball. Then came the fifth ball, McGrath bowled it six inches closer to the stumps - Nasser started to let it go, as before, then suddenly realized this one was a bit closer, tried to bring his bat down -and ended up giving a nice simple catch to the wicketkeeper. I realized then, what seasoned watchers know, it was not that ball that caused Naseer to get out, it was the entire sequence... if I had seen only the highlights video, I would have wondered why on earth Nasser would play a silly shot like that...
I imagine it happens in tennis too - you miss a return, not because there was anything great in that particular serve but because the previous 7 ot 8 serves have conditioned you to expect something else..
Youtube videos will never show you that..very sad!
by Fastbackss
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 4:23 pm
Formula 1.
Max Verstappen, two time defending champion, just won his 8th consecutive race of the season, stretching Red Bull's dominance to 13 straight wins, starting with the final race of last year's championship. This was a guy that won 10 races between 2015 and 2020, and now has won 35 in three seasons after moving to Red Bull.
That is one sport that has truly make the athlete totally disposable. It is simply the car. Second in the standings? Checo Perez, his teammate.
I secretly am rooting for RB to run the season just to make it a "mess" for F1.
What I hope is that they don't institute some arbitrary rule during mid-season in an effort to increase competition.
PS - Max made Checo look terrible on Sunday. Yes, Max gets some benefit to being the team lead car - but he shouldn't be that much quicker in essentially identical cars
by ptmcmahon I didn't watch it (way too early) but US tieing Portugal is very surprising for me. Especially since Portugal could have knocked out US with a win.
Looks like it has likely set up US - Sweden in round of sixteen... which could easily have been a predicted final for many.
by ti-amie Some woman commentating for Fox said the USWNT shouldn't have been celebrating the 0-0 final score proving that idiot commentators aren't limited to tennis in the US. She's been ripped a new one of course.
by ptmcmahon Not following...why SHOULD they have been celebrating it? They barely squeaked through to second round and now have a very hard round 16 match? Apparently Portugal hit the post two minutes into extra time as well so it was very nearly.
Edit - ok I read the comments... apparently Cary Lloyd was questioning the US's drive to actually win the game. Her comments were:
""You never want to take anything for granted," Lloyd said. "You put on that jersey and you want to give it everything you have, for the people that came before you and the people that are gonna come after you, and I'm just not seeing that passion.
"I'm just seeing a very lackluster, uninspiring, taking-it-for-granted, where winning and training and doing all that you can to be the best possible individual player is not happening.""
Doesn't seem to bad to me (and does match some of what I saw the game I watched). Sounds like she has been speaking out quite a bit about team since she retired so guessing people are eager to lash out at anyone who has any kind of non positive opinion in this case.
by ti-amie I know Jordan always frowned up celebrating any win that didn't result in your team holding a trophy and taking a champagne shower Are you saying that's what she meant?
by ptmcmahon No - what I read is that she was implying they weren't playing very hard, not with enough "passion" and were happy enough with a 0-0 tie. But it also sounds like she's been critical of team for awhile - I think I even remember her being critical while she was still on team. So this sounds like nothing new and everyone else is probably not wanting to here someone who is constantly critical - even if they may be right.
by ptmcmahon Jamaica holds Brazil to a 0-0 draw and advances ahead of them in another pretty big upset.
In the last round robin games tonight, Germany (world #2) may need a win to go through as well.
by Owendonovan There's video in the link;
"I Saw The Potbelly...": Outrage Over Somali Athlete's 100-Metre "Sprint"
Twitter users are calling her the worst athlete in history to have participated in international games.
A video of a women's 100-metre race during the 31st Summer World University Games in Chengdu, China, is going viral on social media. The clip doesn't show any records being made or broken, but is making waves for the performance of one particular athlete from Somalia, who reportedly completed the race in 21 seconds. Local outlets identified her as Nasra Abukar Ali. Users who have posted the clip have slammed Somalia's Ministry of Youth and Sports for sending the "untrained" athlete to a high-profile event.
Others users are calling her the worst athlete in history to have participated in the international games, saying she has set the "record for the slowest finish" in the history of the competition.
'I Saw The Potbelly...': Outrage Over Somali Athlete's 100-Metre 'Sprint'
Nasra Abukar Ali reportedly took 21 seconds to complete the 100 metre race.
A video of a women's 100-metre race during the 31st Summer World University Games in Chengdu, China, is going viral on social media. The clip doesn't show any records being made or broken, but is making waves for the performance of one particular athlete from Somalia, who reportedly completed the race in 21 seconds. Local outlets identified her as Nasra Abukar Ali. Users who have posted the clip have slammed Somalia's Ministry of Youth and Sports for sending the "untrained" athlete to a high-profile event.
Others users are calling her the worst athlete in history to have participated in the international games, saying she has set the "record for the slowest finish" in the history of the competition.
The video shows other female athletes gearing up for the race and taking the stance before the start while Ms Ali struggling to even do that.
She doesn't appear to be fit and as soon as the buzzer rings, the crouching athletes race ahead, leaving Ms Ali far behind.
Others athletes quickly finish the race, but Ms Ali takes her own sweet time to reach the end, jumping on the track in between.
Elham Garaad, who shared the clip of the event on Twitter, accused the Somalian authorities of nepotism. "That's the niece of the President of the Somali Athletics Federation. What you expecting? Nepotism; we have good athletes in Somalia but when it comes to (money emojis) is a different story," she tweeted while replying to another user.
Somali Olympic Committee sources told African news outlet Horn Examiner that the real reason behind their participation in the international games was not competition but to help an athlete obtain a Schengen visa and seek asylum in Europe. https://www.ndtv.com/feature/i-saw-the- ... nt-4261599
by ptmcmahon World #2 and two time champion Germany tie South Korea and are eliminated when Morocco win. Definitely the biggest name out at the group stage.
by ti-amie
ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 1:26 pm
World #2 and two time champion Germany tie South Korea and are eliminated when Morocco win. Definitely the biggest name out at the group stage.
Wow
by ti-amie
by skatingfan NBC executives must be doing back flips themselves a year ahead of the Olympics to have an athlete of that status back in competition.
by ashkor87 Saw the US-Sweden match...US couldn't get past the Swedish goalie.. then Rapinoe missed a sitter...sad altogether as it was the last time for her..
by ptmcmahon I'm not too sad, she did win two world cups. I didn't see the whole game, but what I did the Swedish goalie played amazing to keep them in it.
The margin on the winning goal in the shootout was something else too.
by ashkor87 Still, US was ahead 3-2 when it was Rapinoe's turn..if she had scored, it was game over...
by ponchi101 I don't follow any soccer, so this story hardly resonates with me. But I found an article about her, and it was a bad ending to a storied career. She joins Roberto Baggio as great players that suffered such fate.
by ashkor87 My son (who lives in London, Arsenal fan) gets upset whenever anyone calls it 'soccer' - it is football, he insists.. I find it mildly amusing but still.. what Americans play can hardly be graced with the term football so maybe he is right.
by ponchi101 Oh, I switch between the names. To me, it is true football; after all, you use your feet to hit the ball.
American Football should be the one that should have another name; only one player kicks the ball (the kicker, obviously). But then, what would you call that sport?
by ptmcmahon
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 3:20 pm
I don't follow any soccer, so this story hardly resonates with me. But I found an article about her, and it was a bad ending to a storied career. She joins Roberto Baggio as great players that suffered such fate.
The difference being Baggio never won a world cup before or after. So I have a lot more sympathy for him. It also wasn't his last world Cup either.
If Rapinoe had never won any, I could see feeling sorry for her, but she's won two before so not too upset. That'd be like saying "Man I'm so sad for Djokovic for not being able to win a 24th slam."
by skatingfan
ashkor87 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 3:46 pm
My son (who lives in London, Arsenal fan) gets upset whenever anyone calls it 'soccer' - it is football, he insists.. I find it mildly amusing but still.. what Americans play can hardly be graced with the term football so maybe he is right.
Ironically it is the English who seem most upset about the word soccer are the ones who invented the word, and American/Canadian football started out as a game similar to rugby forward hand passes were not allowed, only kicking the ball.
by Suliso England vs Spain for women's World Cup. It will be the first title for either one.
by ponchi101 Too bad. Two traditional powers. I was rooting for the Aussies, or a small country like Colombia or Jamaica.
Anyway, I am only following the news.
by Suliso How traditional could they really be having never reached the final before? In women's football mind you.
by Suliso Also Colombia bigger than Spain now.
by ti-amie The time difference has been too much for me but I have been closely following the tournament on #sportsmastodon.
Some smaller countries did very well and that was good to see. When the US crashed out you would've thought it was the end of the world.
by ponchi101
Suliso wrote: ↑Wed Aug 16, 2023 6:13 pm
Also Colombia bigger than Spain now.
You mean population wise? Sure, that is a fact.
Is Colombia bigger than Spain in Football?
I know, you are right, these two have never won the cup. But to say that Spain and England are not powerhouses simply because their women have never won the cup is a bit too much. Those two countries breath and bleed football.
by Owendonovan I've notice that women sprinters/runners congratulate each other at the end of the race and will happily celebrate someone in their race breaking a record of some sort. The men just ignore each other. I guess it's not masculine enough to congratulate another male that beat you. Just a little observation.
by skatingfan
Owendonovan wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 11:07 am
I've notice that women sprinters/runners congratulate each other at the end of the race and will happily celebrate someone in their race breaking a record of some sort. The men just ignore each other. I guess it's not masculine enough to congratulate another male that beat you. Just a little observation.
I don't think that's true. Athletes at the end of the events generally congratulate everyone in their heat, and particularly after the final. Look at what happens at the end of the decathlon when all the athletes from the decathlon take a victory lap.
by ponchi101 And you missed Carlitos/Tommy yesterday, walking together and chatting on their way to the locker room during one of the rain breaks.
On the opposite side: I forget the year, but remember the infamous photo of all the women at one YEC with all of them talking on their smartphone and not talking to each other? Serena, Sharapova, Aggie, and the other five.
It depends on the group, I guess.
by ti-amie
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 11:32 pm
And you missed Carlitos/Tommy yesterday, walking together and chatting on their way to the locker room during one of the rain breaks.
On the opposite side: I forget the year, but remember the infamous photo of all the women at one YEC with all of them talking on their smartphone and not talking to each other? Serena, Sharapova, Aggie, and the other five.
It depends on the group, I guess.
It's posted elsewhere on the site but I thought I'd post it here.
by ptmcmahon I'm way behind due to a busy week at work, but just finished watching the semifinals. Both great drama filled matches and looking forward to the final.
by ashkor87 Watching England vs Spain..amazing how good they are.
Speed, ball control.
..
by ashkor87 Spain much the better team thus far..20 mins to go
by ti-amie
by ti-amieJenni Hermoso 'didn't consent' to Luis Rubiales kiss as Spain players refuse to play
Jenni Hermoso says she did not consent to be kissed by Spanish football federation president Luis Rubiales - as 81 players confirm they will not play for Spain's national team until he is removed from his post.
Rubiales has refused to resign after kissing forward Hermoso on the lips following Spain's Women's World Cup final win over England in Sydney.
The Spanish government started legal proceedings seeking to suspend the 46-year-old, while Fifa has also launched disciplinary proceedings.
Rubiales had been widely expected to resign at an extraordinary general assembly called by the Royal Spanish Football Federation (RFEF), but instead said "I don't deserve this manhunt".
He added: "It was a spontaneous kiss. Mutual, euphoric and consensual. That's the key. A consensual 'peck' is enough to get me out of here?"
But a statement released by players' union Futpro included quotes from Pachuca's Hermoso, which read: "I want to clarify, that at no time did I consent to the kiss. I don't tolerate that my word is questioned, much less that words are invented that I haven't said."
The statement was signed by a host of players, including all 23 members of the squad which just won the World Cup.
It read: "After everything that happened during the delivery of medals of the Women's World Cup, we want to state that all the players who sign this letter will not return to a call for the national team if the current leaders continue."
Spain's next game is against Sweden in the Nations League on 22 September.
Borja Iglesias, who plays for Real Betis, said earlier on Friday he would not play for the men's national team again while Rubiales is in charge.
The Spanish government will ask Rubiales to explain himself to a Spanish court as soon as possible, secretary of sport Victor Francos said earlier on Friday.
If the administrative court deems he violated the professional sports code, he could then be suspended.
Meanwhile, Fifa will look at whether his actions constitute violations of Article 13 in its disciplinary code, concerning offensive behaviour and fair play.
by ponchi101 FIFA will check how much money can be made out of this, or how much money Rubiales generates for them.
by ti-amie He's refused to resign and now they're investigating Ms Hermoso for something or another.
by skatingfan
ti-amie wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 12:08 am
He's refused to resign and now they're investigating Ms Hermoso for something or another.
The Spanish Football Federation has threatened to sue Hermoso for her claims which they say are lies, and the other players who are refusing to play for the national team.
by ponchi101 What is it that the F's in FIFA stand for? At least one of them must stand for (expletive).
by ashkor87 Am watching the world athletic championships in Budapest.. the mixed relay is my favorite...love the concept, like Hopman Cup...
by ponchi101 I only wish that they would let it be run with the coach selecting what order the runners will start, on the sense of not making it women vs women and men vs men. Let's just see who crosses the finish line first.
But it is a great event indeed.
by skatingfan
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 6:29 pm
I only wish that they would let it be run with the coach selecting what order the runners will start, on the sense of not making it women vs women and men vs men. Let's just see who crosses the finish line first.
But it is a great event indeed.
Each team picks the order that they run the athletes, but the alternating between men, and women seems to be the consensus for this year.
by Owendonovan When people speak of Simone Biles being the greatest gymnast ever, there's no debate like we have in tennis. She is not just the greatest ever, she is CONSIDERABLY better than the second place consideration. She's is arguably better than any other athlete in their sport in history. Truly a marvel, almost hard to believe you are actually watching it. As a former gymnastics coach, when she does a skill, she does it as exactly as it should be done every single time, it's really wild too see because it's never been done like she does it.
Olympic figure skater under investigation for sexual abuse allegation retires
Morgan Cipres, the French Olympic pairs skater who is under investigation from the U.S. Center for SafeSport and the Pasco County, Florida Sheriff’s Office for allegedly sending two lewd photos to a 13-year-old American female figure skater, has retired from the sport.
The French Federation of Ice Sports announced Tuesday that Cipres, 29, and his pairs partner, Vanessa James, 33, were leaving the sport less than a year and a half before the next scheduled Winter Olympics, the 2022 Beijing Games, where they would have been contenders for an Olympic medal.
On Dec. 3, 2017, Cipres allegedly direct messaged two photos of his penis on Instagram to the girl, who skated at the same rink as Cipres in Wesley Chapel, Florida. USA TODAY Sports has reviewed those messages, which were sent from what appears to be Cipres’ verified account.
When asked in a December 2019 phone interview if he sent the photos of himself to the girl, Cipres replied, “I cannot talk with you about anything about that. I mean, I have nothing to say about this allegation.”
SafeSport opened an investigation into the allegation late last year, according to the girl, her parents and emails obtained by USA TODAY Sports.
The girl and her parents also said Cipres’ coaches, John Zimmerman, a 2002 Olympian and member of the U.S. Figure Skating Hall of Fame, and Silvia Fontana, a 2002 and 2006 Olympian representing Italy, tried to keep the family from reporting the alleged incident to authorities by shaming and threatening the girl as Cipres, who then was 26, prepared for the 2018 Winter Olympics.
The skater and her parents said that instead of going to police or SafeSport, which opened in March 2017 to investigate sexual abuse in Olympic sports, Zimmerman and Fontana implored them to stay quiet because Cipres and James were in the final stages of their preparation for the Olympics in South Korea, where they finished fifth.
Zimmerman and Fontana have denied the allegations. The girl and her parents are not being identified because USA TODAY Sports does not publish the names of alleged victims of sexual abuse.
Dara Bushman, a psychologist who worked with the skater, said she “contacted the authorities” after being made aware of the alleged incident in a Dec. 30, 2017 email from the girl’s tutor. “I wanted to make sure the child was safe,” Bushman said.
When the authorities arrived to interview the girl, she refused to tell them what happened, her parents said. Within a few weeks of the alleged incident, the parents said they took their daughter out of the Tampa-area rink and returned to their home in South Florida. She has been in therapy since, they said. The sheriff’s office took no action after the girl declined to cooperate.
But Pasco County Sheriff’s Office spokesperson Amanda Hunter told USA TODAY Sports in June that the investigation into the alleged sexual abuse had been reopened: “This is now an ongoing, active investigation.”
Andrea Lewis, the attorney for the skater and her family, confirmed in June that the girl was “fully cooperating" with the investigation.
“Being victimized by an adult is traumatizing for a child and she still struggles with what happened to her on a daily basis,” Lewis said in an email. “Not only was she harmed by the perpetrator, but also by other adults that she trusted who attempted to cover up his misconduct and intimidate her into being silent. She is extremely grateful for the words of support from survivors and other people all around the world. Those voices have given her the courage to speak up and do what is necessary to make sure that this never happens again.”
Former French skating federation president Didier Gailhaguet, who initially dismissed the allegation of sexual abuse against Cipres, said at a news conference on Feb. 5 in Paris that Cipres “did something very stupid. The stupid thing is a photo of himself and his private parts. He made a major mistake ... a shameful act of stupidity.”
Gailhaguet, who resigned three days later over the federation’s handling of allegations of sexual abuse of underage skaters by their coaches, also said at the time that Cipres had resigned from the French sports federation’s council and was being treated by a psychologist.
by ti-amie That explains that. Thanks @skatingfan.
by ti-amie IOC MEDIA
@iocmedia
IOC Executive Board suspends Russian Olympic Committee with immediate effect.
IOC statement:
by ponchi101 No ban of Russians in the Olympics?
Means little to me because I won't watch anyway, but the IOC as always is only second to FIFA in lack of morals.
by ashkor87 The world cup of cricket is happening here, everything is about that nowadays. Beckham came to watch yesterday, even gave a guest interview .India is in the finals now, against either Australia or South Africa..what astonishes ne is that India now has the best fast bowlers in the world .. ten years ago, we had none and kept losing everywhere on fast pitches ..how this miracle happened I still don't know...
by ti-amie An ex of mine from the US Virgin Islands played cricket and I used to go and watch him play. I still have no idea what was going on.
by ashkor87 Cricket is by far the biggest sport here..ten times bigger than football, thousands of times bigger than tennis..every tv channel shows only cricket...
132000 spectators expected today for the World Cup finals India vs Australia ..just before the ATP finals so I can watch both...last time, I remember, there were 3 events competing for our attention..the Football World Cup finals was the same time..we were all going crazy switching channels !!
btw, that makes it the second largest stadium in the world, behind North Korea's (150,000 capacity, which is presumably used only for political rallies ?)
132000 spectators expected today for the World Cup finals India vs Australia ..just before the ATP finals so I can watch both...last time, I remember, there were 3 events competing for our attention..the Football World Cup finals was the same time..we were all going crazy switching channels !!
btw, that makes it the second largest stadium in the world, behind North Korea's (150,000 capacity, which is presumably used only for political rallies ?)
Sorry about India's loss!
by ti-amie India lost?! So sorry Ashkor!
by ashkor87 Australia deserved to win..professional, clinical...
by ashkor87 Pickleball! Is it time to learn to play it?
I haven't actually (there are only 2 clubs in my city where one can .) But if anyone has tried it? Based on YouTube videos:
The rules seem closer to badminton than to tennis
But the skills required are quite like tennis
Except volleyers may find themselves frustrated by the rule that doesn't allow you to volley close to the net .
My wife and I had invented a game quite like it to keep our son engaged on hot afternoons, probably many folks on this forum have, too!
Would be glad to hear from people who actually play it- are there aspects you can learn, that would be useful in tennis,? Touch, quick reflexes...
by ptmcmahon I know they've definitely done some on their site before. Not surprised if they are doing it in the print version too now.
by Fastbackss The brand has been so devalued for so long this would be an appropriate ending for it
by ti-amieSports Illustrated’s use of AI infuriates a staff already in turmoil
By Ben Strauss and Will Sommer
Updated November 28, 2023 at 6:29 p.m. EST|Published November 28, 2023 at 6:27 p.m. EST
A day after news broke that Sports Illustrated has been publishing AI-generated articles passed off as the work of writers who did not exist, the staff of the storied sports magazine gathered for a virtual all-hands meeting. Staffers were furious, according to people who attended, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss internal company business.
The website Futurism reported Monday that SI, the glossy magazine that for decades was the gold standard for sports journalism, had produced a series of consumer product reviews by artificial intelligence and bylined the stories by fake writers. One writer’s profile photo was available for purchase on an AI website, Futurism reported.
SI withdrew the stories, but its parent company, the Arena Group, a media conglomerate that also owns Men’s Journal and Parade, disputed Futurism’s report. In a statement Monday, Arena said the articles were written by humans for AdVon Commerce, a third-party company it had hired to produce e-commerce content. Only the authors’ names and bios were AI-generated, Arena said.
By then, the jokes had already started. Pat McAfee devoted a segment to the story on his ESPN show. “Sports Illustrated’s like: ‘We can’t hire anybody. We don’t have the money,’ ” he said. “ ‘But what if we get 10 more writers? Think with me. Who are they? AI writers!’ ” Reporters said some of their sources jokingly asked whether the reporters were, in fact, real people.
On Tuesday, staffers asked for a full, transparent accounting of what happened, during a meeting that was described as “contentious” and “tense” by two who attended. The meeting was hosted by co-editor in chief Steve Cannella, and top executive Ross Levinsohn joined 40 minutes after it started, the people said.
The answers to questions Tuesday about the AI debacle, multiple staffers said, were unsatisfying and incomplete. Executives said it was a one-time mistake with an AI company and that they had already broken off their relationship with AdVon before the Futurism story was published. But staffers thought higher-ups were ducking accountability in blaming AdVon, just as Levinsohn had done in an email sent to staffers Monday evening.
“The articles in question were product reviews and were licensed content from an external third-party company,” Levinsohn wrote. “AdVon assured us that all of the articles in question were written and edited by humans.”
Levinsohn and AdVon did not respond to requests for comment Tuesday.
Questions about AI are roiling journalism — how it will be wielded, the ethics behind it and what human work it might ultimately replace. At SI, the focus of staffers’ outrage was less existential — product reviews aren’t sports journalism — and more about yet another embarrassment that they said undermined their journalism.
This, after all, is the same magazine where a high school student was found to be covering the Cincinnati Bengals for SI’s network of affiliated sites, part of a strategy by the previous top executive at SI, James Heckman, to churn out content from cheaper writers — not to mention several rounds of layoffs and the SI-branded brain power pills that are trading on the magazine’s name.
That sort of brand-devaluation overshadows the good journalism the outlet still does, staffers believe, which includes a recent scoop about former Michigan football analyst Connor Stalions by Richard Johnson and Tom Verducci’s baseball coverage, among other work.
The root cause of the despair is a business model that staffers fear is irretrievably broken. The Arena Group pays $15 million per year for the rights to publish SI, in print and online, to a licensing company called Authentic Brands Group, which bought SI from its previous owner, magazine publisher Meredith. (More than 30 percent of the staff was laid off as part of that deal.)
Authentic Brands Group retained the commercial licensing rights to SI, which it uses for things such as the newly launched Sports Illustrated resorts. Arena Group, meanwhile, starts every year $15 million in the hole with its SI budget and must generate most of its revenue from subscriptions and advertising, according to people familiar with the deal. Even documentary, audio and scripted TV licensing rights are controlled by Authentic Brands Group.
That might explain the need for more content, however it’s generated.
Staffers also have chafed at new article production goals, though they vary by writer. Still, multiple staffers called them draconian and said they don’t properly distinguish between a daily story and a deeply reported investigation. (“It’s like judging a baseball player by how many times he swings,” one reporter said.)
Earlier this year, Levinsohn told staffers that the Arena Group owed tens of millions of dollars in a debt payment that was coming due, which staffers worried could threaten the magazine’s viability, two staffers said. That catastrophe was averted with a new investment from 5-Hour Energy founder Manoj Bhargava, according to those staffers.
This isn’t the first time a media company has run into trouble over allegedly AI-generated reviews from AdVon. In October, staffers at USA Today’s e-commerce site noticed reviews that appeared to be AI-generated and published under fake bylines appearing on their site.
Like Sports Illustrated, USA Today owner Gannett claimed the posts weren’t generated by AI. Instead, a spokeswoman insisted the fake names were pseudonyms for humans who wrote the articles through a contract with AdVon.
AdVon is public about its use of AI. One of its social media pages said the company used “AI solutions for E Commerce,” while one of the human writers who produced articles for Gannett under USA Today listed his expertise as “polishing AI generative text” on his LinkedIn page.
by ptmcmahon I subscribe to Jimmy Traina's podcast (one of the real writers) and will be very interested to hear his take on it this week
by ti-amie
ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 5:46 pm
I subscribe to Jimmy Traina's podcast (one of the real writers) and will be very interested to hear his take on it this week
Please let us know if he addresses the issue.
by Fastbackss Starting 15million in the hole each year is a predicament.
Ironically I logged on today and got online ads for SI
by ptmcmahon The algorithm maker sees us discussing and is deciding we want those ads
ptmcmahon wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 5:46 pm
I subscribe to Jimmy Traina's podcast (one of the real writers) and will be very interested to hear his take on it this week
Please let us know if he addresses the issue.
He led off by addressing it. He pointed out that they have never used AI for any sports or editorial content. He says they outsource their "consumer report" sections and that is where the complaints were. That's what is says in above article too, so sounds like it's just their outsourced material.
For now?
by ponchi101 From SI to AI there is not too much...
“That fiasco was followed by a head-scratching town hall in December led by Bhargava with SI and other Arena employees that spanned more than 90 minutes and during which Bhargava said, “No one is important. I am not important. … The amount of useless stuff you guys do is staggering “
by Fastbackss The way that they were blatantly bilking the name recognition of the brand (all while neglecting what created the credibility) has been staggering to me.
They literally just announced plans for a new SI hotel in ann Arbor pretty much the same day the newsroom decimation broke
by ti-amieFox, Disney and Warner Bros. Discovery are creating a joint sports streaming platform
2/6/2024
Fox, Disney and Warner Bros. Discovery are creating a joint sports streaming platform.
The media conglomerates will collaborate to establish a joint venture aimed at launching a new sports streaming service, drawing from their extensive collection of professional and collegiate sports rights. These rights encompass a wide array of sports leagues, including the NFL, NBA, MLB, FIFA World Cup, and various college competitions.
The service, yet to be named, will offer a comprehensive package of programming, incorporating television channels such as ESPN, TNT, and FS1, as well as streamed sports content. Subscribers will have the option to access the service either independently or as part of a streaming bundle through platforms like Disney+, Hulu, or Max.
Disney CEO Bob Iger expressed, "This means the full suite of ESPN channels will be available to consumers alongside the sports programming of other leaders."
Media analyst Michael J. Wolf of Activate Consulting noted that the venture targets the 40 million households in the U.S. with high-speed internet but no pay TV subscription. Additionally, a digital sports offering is expected to attract interest from tech giants like Amazon, Apple, and Roku, which curate streaming video for millions of consumers.
Former Disney executive Bernard Gershon described the move as a strategic defensive maneuver with significant potential upside. He emphasized the enduring appeal of live sports as a potent audience magnet, whether broadcasted on television or streamed online.
The CEOs have been in discussions about this collaboration for some time, intending to provide consumers with more options without replacing flagship networks like ESPN and FS1, which already cater to a dedicated sports fanbase on television.
Fox Chief Executive Lachlan Murdoch remarked, "We believe the service will provide passionate fans outside of the traditional bundle an array of amazing sports content all in one place."
The jointly-owned entity will have equal board representation from the three media companies and will license sports content on a non-exclusive basis. An independent management team will oversee its operations.
The launch of this sports-centric service underscores the recognition of a sizable market for sports content beyond traditional TV. It represents an opportunity for these media companies to monetize their valuable sports rights in new ways.
Warner Bros Discovery CEO David Zaslav emphasized, "This new sports service exemplifies our ability as an industry to drive innovation and provide consumers with more choice, enjoyment, and value."
Last year, Disney CEO Bob Iger hinted at the company's intention to retain ESPN and explore partnerships and investments to transition the network to an online platform.
Activist investor Nelson Peltz believes Disney can achieve streaming profitability by bundling its ESPN+ service with a larger player interested in sports, according to recent media reports.
by ti-amie I think we've touched on this a few times here.
It's going to be impossible to follow any sport unless you're paying premium rates to do so.
by Suliso How do they gain new fans if you can only start out by paying premium rates? I think boxing declined like that...
by ponchi101 HBO max was such a disaster they had to call it off in S. America.
This will be the same. Let's see how many people will sign up.
by ti-amieUS Senators Accuse McKinsey, BCG of Hindering PGA-LIV Probe
Saudi wealth fund sued consultants to block document release
Executives say they’re fighting back against Saudi injunction
Saudi Arabia has threatened to imprison the bankers and consultants it works with if they cooperate with a probe by US lawmakers into the planned merger of the PGA Tour with LIV Golf.
The kingdom’s Public Investment Fund sued its advisers in a Saudi court in November in order to prevent them from submitting information to the US Senate committee on homeland security and governmental affairs. Violating the court order could lead the kingdom to imprison executives and their staffers for 20 years, according to veteran investment banker Michael Klein, one of the top advisers to the fund.
This is all I could get before the paywall kicked in.
by ponchi101 Whenever somebody sues to have documents released, I wonder what there is in those documents.
Then I remember that there is no way I would allow for my hard drive to be made public.
Mixed feelings. But since I detest the Saudi kings...
by ashkor87 So delighted to see the Hawkeyes doing well in women's basketball. (I was a Hawkeye once .)Is it all about one player?
by ptmcmahon Well they have the clear #1 player but from what I’ve seen in the tournament their #2 (Stokey I think?) is also a good player and a couple of the supporting cast can hold their own too. But Clark is the total package clear #1 player. It’s not just the scoring she does well.
by ti-amie
by ptmcmahon Closest three way finish I know of.
We were watching with kids and all made picks and youngest took Mystik Dan, and another had Sierra so was exilcitement all around.
by ashkor87 Sierra Leone reminds me of Risen Star...
by ti-amieBookies at the baccarat table: A new scandal grips Las Vegas
The case involving Shohei Ohtani’s interpreter is shedding light on a sprawling money-laundering probe -— and rattling The Strip in the process.
By Gus Garcia-Roberts
May 9, 2024 at 1:19 p.m. EDT
LAS VEGAS — Of all the perks the casinos near Lake Tahoe can offer high-rolling customers, few rival an invitation to play in the American Century Championship, the annual celebrity golf tournament. And perhaps the most enticing celebrity to be paired with is retired NBA legend Charles Barkley, the tournament’s hard-swinging and harder-gambling fan favorite, who every year attempts to place six-figure long-odds bets on his performance.
Naturally, in 2019, that privilege went to Mathew Bowyer, an Orange County, Calif., card player who regularly risked millions at tables throughout Nevada and elsewhere — and who is now at the center of a betting scandal surrounding the former interpreter for MLB megastar Shohei Ohtani.
Joining Bowyer and Barkley that day were a sports agent and a Midwestern tool magnate. But unlike the rest of the group, Bowyer’s source of wealth was elusive. On paper, he was a Renaissance man — dojo operator, day trader, landscaper, real estate developer. But records and interviews suggest that among some casino hosts and executives who catered to him, Bowyer’s real occupation was well known: bookie.
A tournament spokesman said the event did not have records of how many years Bowyer played but that his pairing with Barkley was probably purposeful. “The casino would have wanted to put him with a golfer with whom he’d have something in common, which in Barkley’s case would be gambling,” the spokesman said.
Caesar’s Entertainment, the parent company of Harrah’s casino near Lake Tahoe and a tournament sponsor, did not respond to a request for comment. Bowyer’s attorney declined to comment on this story.
Bowyer’s revenue source should have been a problem for the casinos hosting him. Federal anti-money laundering laws forbid the casinos here from allowing suspected bookies or other criminals from wagering at their tables. Nonetheless, employees up and down organizational charts at some of the largest properties on the Las Vegas Strip welcomed the action of Bowyer and his partners, according to interviews and confidential records reviewed by The Washington Post.
They comped Bowyer millions of dollars in discounted losses and perks, vouched for the legitimacy of his funds in internal correspondence and lifted restrictions on him for the promise of seven-figure cashier’s checks. They even gave his wife legal income for bringing in her husband’s action. All the while, they catered to him, comping penthouses and villas, shuttling him on casino-owned jets and pairing him with Barkley.
Bowyer’s real occupation went from open secret on the Strip to the stuff of global headlines in March, when multiple outlets reported that he had received millions of dollars from a bank account belonging to Ohtani. Ohtani’s former interpreter, Ippei Mizuhara, has since pleaded guilty to siphoning Ohtani’s money to pay off gambling debts without the ballplayer’s knowledge.
Now the ease with which Bowyer and other major bookies allegedly washed millions at Nevada tables has become a focal point of multiple official investigations, roiling Vegas and casting scrutiny on a federal investigation that was in full swing well before Bowyer and Mizuhara’s cameo roles.
Over the last two years, a dozen people have been indicted in connection with that probe, shedding light on an underworld of illegal sports-betting by well-known sports figures or those close to them, including former Dodgers phenom Yasiel Puig and LeBron James associate Maverick Carter, both of whom gambled with admitted bookie Wayne Nix.
Puig is awaiting trial for allegedly lying to federal agents; Carter has not been charged. No charges have been publicly filed against Bowyer. In Mizuhara’s indictment last month, prosecutors referred to Bowyer as a “target” in an ongoing investigation.
Longtime casino executive Scott Sibella pleaded guilty in December to federal charges stemming from allowing Nix to wager illegal bookmaking proceeds at Vegas tables. Two casinos, the MGM Grand and the Cosmopolitan, admitted that their hosts welcomed Nix despite knowing he was a bookie and forfeited millions to avoid prosecution.
The Post found that two other major casinos on the strip, The Venetian and Resorts World Las Vegas, accepted millions from Bowyer and his colorful cast of Southern California associates. They include, records show, Ryan Boyajian, a muscle-bound regular on “The Real Housewives of Orange County,” who prosecutors say accepted roughly $15 million stolen from Ohtani’s account. (ESPN first reported Boyajian’s involvement.)
The professional sports industry, once deeply wary of Las Vegas, has enmeshed itself here like never before, with the city hosting the Super Bowl in February and making plans for an MLB team. But the unspooling scandal has called into question whether Vegas, where much of the power is consolidated in the executive offices of the casinos on the Strip, is capable of policing itself.
Richard Schuetz, a former casino executive and gaming commissioner, said state regulators have yet to prove they can hold casinos accountable. He referred to a chapter in this saga in which regulators publicly cleared Sibella of wrongdoing a year ago — only for him to then plead guilty to similar allegations in federal court.
“I think what they mean by, ‘We started an investigation,’ ” Schuetz said of the control board, “is that, ‘We got a guy who reads the morning paper every day to see if they’re saying any more s--- about us.’ ”
Kirk Hendrick, chairman of the Nevada Gaming Control Board, dismissed the insinuation that his agency has not acted. “I’m not hearing any criticism from the industry,” Hendrick said. “The Nevada control board will investigate anybody who is either involved in or wants to be involved in the Nevada gaming industry.”
Ryan Boyajian with “Real Housewives” star Jennifer Pedranti. Prosecutors allege Boyajian accepted millions in wire transfers from a bank account belonging to MLB star Shohei Ohtani. (Anna Webber/Getty Images)
‘Everybody knew’
Las Vegas casinos have compliance departments whose job it is to vet significant gamblers. There were plenty of red flags in Bowyer’s file to give them pause about courting his action.
He had previously filed for bankruptcy. He repeatedly attempted to get out of paying six- or seven-figure gambling debts to casinos, court records show. And then there was the matter of Bowyer’s occupation.
Bowyer had long been on the radar of law enforcement, including when Florida deputies seized $100,000 mailed to his house by a crew of suspected bookies with mob ties.
A frequent presence in Bowyer’s business dealings over the years, records show, was Boyajian, his close friend and partner long before he became a minor celebrity for his relationship with a Real Housewives cast member.
In bankruptcy filings, Bowyer said he received a $245,000 loan from Boyajian in 2010. Both men were intertwined in an alleged Belizean land scam litigated by the Federal Trade Commission, in which court records show that several key players had ties to offshore sports betting. Boyajian’s attorney has said he did nothing wrong and was “not implicated.” In court testimony, Boyajian said he had been fired from a previous job as a mortgage lender for what he called “fraud,” for listing his own bank account number on a client’s loan application.
In 2017, Boyajian reported in a divorce that he averaged $350,000 in annual income as a property manager but sometimes made as much as $1 million. He had a busy side hustle, though, according to allegations made by federal authorities in court records: He accepted millions of dollars in wagers as part of Bowyer’s bookmaking business.
In interpreter Mizuhara’s federal indictment last month, Boyajian was referred to anonymously as “Associate 1,” according to multiple people with direct knowledge of the case. The indictment alleges that Boyajian received wire transfers from at least two Bowyer clients, including Mizuhara. Boyajian received $15 million from Ohtani’s bank account between February 2022 and October 2023, according to the indictment.
Court records do not provide more detail on what if any additional role Boyajian played in Bowyer’s operation. He has not been charged. According to the people with knowledge of the case, he has an immunity deal with prosecutors. An attorney representing him, Steven Jay Katzman, said he couldn’t comment: “Because it’s an active investigation in which he’s cooperating, we can’t confirm or deny anything.”
Boyajian was also Bowyer’s frequent companion on Vegas gambling trips, where, according to several people who encountered him, Bowyer dropped his subterfuge about his real occupation.
“It was no secret; everybody knew in the casino business that he was a bookie,” said Brandon Sattler, a former high roller who said he met Bowyer many times, including at high-stakes blackjack tournaments. “If people got to know him playing at tournaments and they talked to him, he would admit it.”
The professional sports industry, once deeply wary of Las Vegas, has enmeshed itself here like never before.
As a bookie, Bowyer had access to millions of dollars in cash and a tireless appetite for wagering it, mostly on baccarat. He had a long history with The Venetian, including being briefly barred from the property before being permitted back in. And Bowyer’s wagering there accelerated around 2019, according to a person with direct knowledge of his gambling. That year, Bowyer regularly brought the casino cashier’s checks worth up to $1 million.
Averaging $30,000 a hand at times, Bowyer lost up to $1.5 million in a single session. To keep his business, the Venetian gave Bowyer more than $3 million in “comps,” which can include forgiven losses, hotel rooms, jet trips and more. Bowyer’s host at the Venetian invited Bowyer and his wife, Nicole, to his wedding, photos on social media show.
Boyajian, meanwhile, was known on the Strip as a “rounder,” according to a person with direct knowledge of his wagering, meaning he made the rounds of casinos, seeking and being extended credit totaling in the millions of dollars.
In total, Bowyer lost $3.6 million at The Venetian, according to multiple people with direct knowledge. Boyajian won more than $300,000 from the Venetian, which suspended his credit line last year due to his debt to other casinos and slow repayment, according to a person with knowledge of his gambling.
The Venetian did not respond to requests for comment.
A decade ago, The Venetian’s parent company agreed to pay the federal government $47 million to end a money-laundering investigation stemming from a suspected drug trafficker gambling at its tables. The casino clamped down for a while after that, developing a reputation on the Strip for strict compliance policies.
But ultimately the Venetian allowed Bowyer as a customer. And that helped open the door for him at a major new casino up the street.
A whole new Resorts World
Resorts World Las Vegas opened in 2021, with Sibella as its president. Records reviewed by The Post suggest that the casino needed only mild convincing to take Bowyer as a customer. But in January 2022, an “independent rep” — essentially a freelance casino host — wrote to top Resorts World executive Doni Taube, citing the Venetian decision in trying to convince him to welcome Bowyer’s action.
“Matt does specialize in sports wagering, and day trading among his jitsu studio, investor in real estate development and a landscape business,” the independent rep wrote in the email. “As you are aware the Venetian compliance is very strict and they allow him to play there … I feel maybe we should consider that a big company like themselves found reason to allow him to play, and has not had any issues.”
“Matt is a cash player and will wire or bring a cashiers check for 1 million on a given trip,” the independent rep added.
The pitch apparently worked. During roughly the same period in which he and Boyajian received millions in wires from Ohtani’s bank account, Bowyer ultimately took 32 trips to Resorts World totaling 86 days, during which he lost $7.9 million, according to casino records reviewed by The Post. Boyajian lost $3.7 million over 21 trips.
Resorts World added another incentive for Bowyer to keep his action there. In 2022, according to multiple people with knowledge of the arrangement, the casino gave Nicole Bowyer, the founder of a women’s athleisure company, the role of Bowyer’s independent rep. She earned hundreds of thousands of dollars in commission on his play, all while also wagering herself, according to people with knowledge of the Bowyers’ wagering.
In a statement, Resorts World said that once the casino “became aware of information” regarding Mathew Bowyer and Boyajian, they barred them from the property, and that the company “is fully committed to its compliance obligations under state and federal laws and regulations.”
There is little evidence that Nevada regulators were seeking to crack down on suspected bookies wagering at Vegas tables before federal authorities got involved. In fact, regulators dismissed an early sign of trouble in 2022, when gambler Sattler testified during his bankruptcy that a Resorts World taqueria was secretly partly owned by another convicted Southern California bookie. Resorts World denied the allegation, and the Nevada Gaming Control Board cleared Sibella.
Also in 2022, according to Sibella’s later plea agreement, he told unidentified law enforcement agents he “heard that Nix was in the booking business,” referring to the other Orange County bookie. But Sibella said he didn’t want to know. “I stay out of it,” Sibella said, according to his guilty plea. “If we know, we can’t allow them to gamble.”
Seven months after the control board cleared him, Resorts World fired Sibella, saying that he “violated company policies and the terms of his employment.” A few months after that, he pleaded guilty to violating federal money laundering statutes. On Wednesday, Sibella was sentenced to one year probation with a $9,500 fine.
Hendrick, the control board chair, said that what his agency cleared Sibella of, and what he ultimately pleaded guilty to, were “two separate issues.”
Since the Ohtani scandal broke, the gaming control board has undertaken a new investigation apparently focused on Bowyer and others wagering at the tables, dragging gamblers and hosts to its drab headquarters miles away from the Strip for questioning.
One of Bowyer’s old favorite haunts on the Strip has also taken belated action. In March, five months after the feds raided his house and just days before he was publicly implicated in the scandal surrounding Ohtani’s interpreter, records show, management at The Venetian finally decided that he was no longer allowed on the property.
by Fastbackss Knew the Ohtani case would eventually yield more details but that's a pretty fun one
by ashkor87 Meanwhile, 'the most subtle game known to mankind', cricket...has reached the shores of the barbarians (ummm..the US).. the world cup, officially hosted by the West Indies, once the mightiest team in cricket, is happening now partly in the US. Go sample it if you can! It is only 3:hours, not 5 days ...!
by Fastbackss Was wondering if you'd mention this.
Been surprised how much coverage it had been getting after the win over Pakistan
by ashkor87
Fastbackss wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 10:28 am
Was wondering if you'd mention this.
Been surprised how much coverage it had been getting after the win over Pakistan
Yes that was great for the game!!
by ashkor87
A short clip of the great Curtly Ambrose, of the west indies..my most favorite bowler!
by ti-amie
A two minute history lesson.
by ashkor87 India won the world cup!! Dramatic finish, beat South Africa
by skatingfan There's a really terrible joke in their somewhere about South Americans sneaking into America, but I'm not talented enough to make it.
by ti-amieColombia's soccer federation president and son among 27 arrested in chaos at Copa America final
Ramón Jesurún and his son Ramon Jamil Jesurun were detained after the event at Hard Rock Stadium, and charged.
Author: ALANIS THAMES (AP Sports Writer)
Published: 3:35 PM MDT July 15, 2024
Updated: 3:42 PM MDT July 15, 2024
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MIAMI GARDENS, Fla. — Colombia’s soccer federation president and his son were among 27 people arrested during the crowd control issues that broke out Sunday at the Copa America final between Argentina and Colombia, police said Monday.
Ramón Jesurún and his son Ramon Jamil Jesurun were detained after the event at Hard Rock Stadium, and charged, Miami-Dade police detective Andre Martin told The Associated Press. Martin did not disclose the charges.
Ramon Jamil Jesurun was booked on three counts of battery on an official Sunday, arrest records showed.
Colombia's soccer federation didn’t immediately respond Monday to a request for comment from the AP.
It was a chaotic scene just hours before the scheduled 8 p.m. start of the championship match between the two South American countries: Fans forced their way in and jumped over security railings and ran past police officers and stadium attendants, some appearing hysterical as they searched for the people they arrived with.
There appeared to be significant damage to the venue as a result. Video and images posted to social media showed the shattered side railings of an escalator inside the stadium, with shoes, soda cans, reading glasses and articles of clothing left behind. Security railings at a checkpoint in the southwest entrance to the stadium were bent over as thousands of people, including crying children, pushed against them.
The department said over 800 law enforcement officers were at the event.
by ti-amieTicketed fans kept out of Copa America final want refunds
When fans rushed the entrance gates prior to kickoff, videos show many fans without tickets found their way inside.
By Sasha Jones • Published 14 mins ago • Updated 14 mins ago
“So, there was a point where they opened the gates and all the people rushed in. And all the people that rushed in, none of them scanned their tickets,” Dr. Manuel Fonseca said.
Fonseca spent $3,690 for a pair of tickets to the Copa America final. He said when he and his wife entered the gate, it was unsafe.
“And I made my way inside. But when I started seeing all those people rushing in, my wife was pregnant. I said, ‘I'm definitely not going to risk this. Let's get outside.’ Because my concern was that if a stampede gets developed there, what are we going to do?” he said.
After escaping the wave of people entering, he said they were unable to get back inside.
“They say, you need to go to the North Gate. They were sending you basically in circles all night long,” he said.
Now he wants a refund, and he isn’t the only one.
A quick scroll on X shows other frustrated fans who want their money back. One person wrote, “My family and I traveled to Miami to watch the game and spent thousands…we were locked out of the stadium while thousands of people without tickets got in. We should expect a refund.”
Another person wrote, “When will I receive a refund on tickets and parking after being refused entry.”
NBC6 Responds reached out to ticket vendors Ticketmaster and StubHub along with CONMEBOL, the organizers of the event.
Ticketmaster’s policy states only event organizers can determine whether refunds will be allowed. In a statement from Hard Rock Stadium released on X Monday morning, they stated in part, “We understand there are disappointed ticket holders who were not able to enter the stadium after the perimeter was closed, and we will work in partnership with CONMEBOL to address those individual concerns.”
According to Ticketmaster, if the event organizer approves refunds ticketholders will see a request refund button in their online accounts and the money will go back to the card used to purchase the tickets.
We are still waiting to hear back from StubHub, CONMEBOL, and Hard Rock Stadium to ask if they will be giving refunds for this event.
by Owendonovan Paris 2024: Team GB's Charlotte Dujardin withdraws from Olympic Games after video shows 'error of judgement'
Charlotte Dujardin is out of the Paris Olympics and provisionally suspended for six months over a video showing her hitting a horse's leg several times; warning: the above video contains footage that some viewers may find distressing.
"What happened was completely out of character and does not reflect how I train my horses or coach my pupils, however there is no excuse. I am deeply ashamed and should have set a better example in that moment." https://www.skysports.com/olympics/news ... -judgement
Actually Ms. Dujardin the video shows that the ease and comfort with which you whip the horse appears to be completely of your character and is a mirror reflection of how you coach your pupils. What miserable wretch.
by ti-amie
Kristina did the routine in heels underwater. And did it better than the original.
This is the only way I could post the video.
by ti-amie
by ti-amie
by ti-amie
Tory
@cutietoryxo
3h
“Social media made y’all way too comfortable with disrespecting people and not getting punched in the face for it.”
-Mike Tyson
austin
@PukaMVP
·
4h
making fun of a 6'3 300 lb mans family is an interesting choice
by ponchi101 Ah... can't side with the kid. Idiot.
by skatingfan F*** around and find out.
by ti-amie Interesting
P1/2
by ti-amie
by ponchi101 We need this man's genome to be coded. After he dies (I gather that sometime in the 22nd century), science at the time will be able to clone him and we can have the Lakers vs the Celtics (the only two teams that will be able to afford this) with 5 Lebron's each.
Serious here. The guy is simply a super human.
by mmmm8 It's interesting how things that used to be basic "wellness" (minus the hyperbaric chamber and cryotherapy) are now called "biohacking," just because soccer moms are out and tech bros are in.
by Owendonovan He sure gets good results on that investment.
by ti-amie Word on NYC streets is that Aaron Judge will drop the ball New Years Eve in Times Square...
by Owendonovan The SEC is really a cesspool of regional toxic masculinity. I loathe football coaches.
Georgia's Kirby Smart: Jake Pope celebrating with Ole Miss fans 'just stupid'
Georgia coach Kirby Smart called backup safety Jake Pope's actions "just stupid" after the player was caught seemingly celebrating with Ole Miss fans on the field in the wake of the Rebels' 28-10 victory over the then-No. 3 Bulldogs at Vaught-Hemingway Stadium on Saturday.
Smart, speaking during a news conference Monday, told reporters that Pope was celebrating with friends from Buford High School in Georgia.
Man how stupid do you have to be to want to share some missed friendship happiness with your old teammates? Why encourage positive human traits?
"What an idiot. I mean, just stupid," Smart said. "I didn't see it until today, but he's embarrassed about it. He's upset about it. That's obviously a childhood friend of his that he grew up and played with there at Buford and he knows him, hadn't seen him in forever, but just not real smart. Why isn't this smart? Playing football isn't all that smart, medically.
"To be honest with you, I don't have time to waste energy on that. My focus is on Tennessee. I'm not worried about that." Yet, genius that YOU are, have given the time and energy to waste on it.
by ptmcmahon Even back when I played high school football there were definitely many times I raised my eyes at my coaches at some of the stuff they would say. And this is just in Atlantic Canada.
. The same can be said for the Chinese. You would not have any idea of how discriminatory Brazilians are until you work with them, and the list does not end there. The people in the Balkans had that atrocious war based on their mutual hatred and when I was in Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan the entire region basically hate each other, with no true ethnic differences to talk about.
. The same can be said for the Chinese. You would not have any idea of how discriminatory Brazilians are until you work with them, and the list does not end there. The people in the Balkans had that atrocious war based on their mutual hatred and when I was in Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan the entire region basically hate each other, with no true ethnic differences to talk about.
)
(Yes, I know this one's rugby)
Thanks for the summary though.
Is he the 'crazy uncle' in your family? 
.)
Kenzo Tribouillard
Kenzo Tribouillard
