by Deuce It’s good that the names of two Topics have been modified to more clearly indicate their contents... But I think we should add one more category - one that covers stories/discussions that are related to tennis and tennis players, but are not on court things (Tennis Random, Random - On Court), and are not more trivial things like selfie photos or glamorous photo shoots, etc. (Tennis Players - Off Court Shenanigans).
I had no idea where to put the two posts below this one...
Maybe put them in ‘Tennis Players - Off Court Shenanigans’?... but talking about the Russian invasion certainly doesn’t qualify as trivial shenanigans...
Maybe put them in ‘Tennis Random, Random - On Court’?... but tennis players talking about the Russian invasion is not related to anything on court...
Maybe put them in ‘Russian Invasion of Ukraine’?... but this involves tennis players, and so should go in a ‘Tennis Related’ category...
So I thought it would be good to create one more category for serious issues related to tennis and/or tennis players. I feel that this would be the place where my 2 posts below would go, as would the Becker jail stories, and even the 16 year ban for ‘match fixing' - and other similar posts - because none of these things are related to anything on court, and they are serious issues, and so are not ‘ off court shenanigans’.
So I decided to create this separate category for more serious type stories/discussions/articles, etc. which are definitely related to tennis and/or tennis players, but which are not related to anything on court, and are not 'off court shenanigans'.
I hope this topic can be used to post things which are related to serious off court tennis-related matters.
by Deuce Nadal is hinting that the players may "take a stand" against Wimbledon banning Russian and Belarusian players...
Does this mean a possible boycott?
by Deuce The link below is to an article that is very interesting... It begins with an 8 minute video monologue by Alexandr Dolgopolov - a Ukrainian former tennis player (with loads of natural talent) - who is in Ukraine. He talks about his experiences and his perspectives on the invasion.
Below that (within the same link) is an article focusing on Marta Kostyuk and her views on the invasion and on the Russian and Belarusian tennis players. It's extremely interesting stuff.
I absolutely admire her passion - it's wonderful to see a young person actually CARE about something other than their favourite video game today, and give profound thought to matters... but I feel she is misinformed and misguided about some things. Her passion, though, is very genuine and refreshing...
Below the link to the article, I've posted a statement Kostyuk wrote recently - in which, again, her genuine passion is undeniable, if (I feel) somewhat misguided.
A little snippet from the article below... “I cut out all the contacts from all the Russian and Belarusian players I’ve been friends with because of the fact that we were friends and they never considered coming out to me and talking to me."
And this, from another article I read (but which overall is not as good as the article linked to below)... "We used to be friends with a lot of players. I'm not friends with anyone anymore... We know the whole world is trying to support us [Ukraine]. Everyone knows that what's going on is wrong. And yet inside the tour, we're alone."
Deuce wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 6:17 am
Nadal is hinting that the players may "take a stand" against Wimbledon banning Russian and Belarusian players...
Does this mean a possible boycott?
That was my assumption. What else could it be that's meaningful? I don't think it will happen, though. Maybe a few top players could boycott, but the lower-ranked players desperately need their Slam paycheck.
Deuce wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 6:17 am
Nadal is hinting that the players may "take a stand" against Wimbledon banning Russian and Belarusian players...
Does this mean a possible boycott?
That was my assumption. What else could it be that's meaningful? I don't think it will happen, though. Maybe a few top players could boycott, but the lower-ranked players desperately need their Slam paycheck.
If even just a handful of, say, top 20 players boycott, though, it will render Wimbledon just a shadow of its former self. There will be talk of an asterisk for the winners, etc.
I really hope it happens. I hope several players - male and female - have the guts to boycott. And to announce the boycott early, so as to pressure Wimbledon to remove their unfair ban of Russian and Belarusian players.
We'd all rather see an all-inclusive tournament than a boycott, of course. But if they hold to their unfair ban of those players, then I sure as hell hope the other players have the integrity to boycott.
Deuce wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 6:17 am
Nadal is hinting that the players may "take a stand" against Wimbledon banning Russian and Belarusian players...
Does this mean a possible boycott?
That was my assumption. What else could it be that's meaningful? I don't think it will happen, though. Maybe a few top players could boycott, but the lower-ranked players desperately need their Slam paycheck.
If even just a handful of, say, top 20 players boycott, though, it will render Wimbledon just a shadow of its former self. There will be talk of an asterisk for the winners, etc.
I really hope it happens. I hope several players - male and female - have the guts to boycott. And to announce the boycott early, so as to pressure Wimbledon to remove their unfair ban of Russian and Belarusian players.
We'd all rather see an all-inclusive tournament than a boycott, of course. But if they hold to their unfair ban of those players, then I sure as hell hope the other players have the integrity to boycott.
That was my assumption. What else could it be that's meaningful? I don't think it will happen, though. Maybe a few top players could boycott, but the lower-ranked players desperately need their Slam paycheck.
If even just a handful of, say, top 20 players boycott, though, it will render Wimbledon just a shadow of its former self. There will be talk of an asterisk for the winners, etc.
I really hope it happens. I hope several players - male and female - have the guts to boycott. And to announce the boycott early, so as to pressure Wimbledon to remove their unfair ban of Russian and Belarusian players.
We'd all rather see an all-inclusive tournament than a boycott, of course. But if they hold to their unfair ban of those players, then I sure as hell hope the other players have the integrity to boycott.
Think Wimbledon also bought boycott insurance?
by ti-amie
by ponchi101 Yes. I don't think that the academy of a retired player looks good with that player somewhere else.
by ti-amie If she came back try and drum up interest in her academy she went about it the wrong way.
by Deuce Could they not find a way to maintain it?
Surely Clijsters has the money... While not ideal, I think it could still be run in Clijsters' name, with her making an appearance every month or so for a few days.
I guess she simply doesn't want to do that, though.
Mertens could make it her own - I'm sure Kim would give her a good deal on the purchase...
Or just keep it running as a tennis academy without a pro's name attached?
It seems strange that they say Mertens can't practice there anymore. Why not? Are they demolishing the courts??
by ti-amie
Alex Dolgopolov @TheDolgo
8m
So apart from killing,raping,torturing our people, they continue to insult us as they can. But sure, no problem for their players to keep playing against Ukrainians and probably having the same stuf in their heads. Tennis way behind Soccer in these hard times
by ponchi101 Well, that tells you how a lot of people in Russia think.
by JazzNU Did this read like Medvedev and other Russian players have been ordered to "play the Kremlin Cup OR ELSE" or is that just me?
by ponchi101 Let's say it will be an offer they can't refuse..
by Deuce Well... that's surely going to get Wimbledon and the U.K. to change their minds and allow Russian and Belarusian players to play, huh?
This idiot may just have just completely sealed the fate of the Russian and Belarusian players in U.K. tournaments.
by mmmm8
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 8:48 pm
Well, that tells you how a lot of people in Russia think.
Tarpischev is not "a lot of people in Russia" - he is fully entrenched in the regime in multiple ways.
Not to say that no people in Russia think that.
I hope some of the top Russian players show some backbone.
by ponchi101 You would certainly know more about that than I can.
He has been head of the Russian Tennis Federation for a long time. Is he not representative of the older generation? (Serious question). People that still want to bring Russia to its former glory?
by mmmm8
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 3:35 pm
You would certainly know more about that than I can.
He has been head of the Russian Tennis Federation for a long time. Is he not representative of the older generation? (Serious question). People that still want to bring Russia to its former glory?
He is an opportunist (who does care about tennis). When the regime was Yeltsin, he was BFFs with Yeltsin, he has ties to the mob, he put his son in leadership roles within the Tennis Federation with no qualifications.
Do I think he has a hegemonic views and so do many other Russians? Sure. Honestly, I catch myself with those views sometimes (not about Ukraine). But I think Tarpishev's statements at this point are a mix between trying to toe the party line and word diarrhea
by ti-amie
by ti-amie Set Tenis
@settenisok
El nuevo contrato de Sinner con Nike:
USD$150 millones por 10 años.
info:
@Gazzetta_it
Translated from Spanish by Google
Sinner's new contract with Nike:
USD$150 million for 10 years.
info:
@Gazzetta_it
by ponchi101 They know something I don't.
I admit, he is very likeable, and he has potential. But if this is the bar they are setting, I wonder what kind of contract they will give Carlitos, when the time comes to re-new his contract. $15MM/year is a lot of money for a player with not even a MS1000.
by ti-amie
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Fri May 20, 2022 7:32 pm
They know something I don't.
I admit, he is very likeable, and he has potential. But if this is the bar they are setting, I wonder what kind of contract they will give Carlitos, when the time comes to re-new his contract. $15MM/year is a lot of money for a player with not even a MS1000.
We saw this in the NBA and we know how that turned out. Blake Griffin? Damian Lillard? Chris Paul?
by JazzNU
ti-amie wrote: ↑Fri May 20, 2022 7:26 pm
Set Tenis
@settenisok
El nuevo contrato de Sinner con Nike:
USD$150 millones por 10 años.
info:
@Gazzetta_it
Translated from Spanish by Google
Sinner's new contract with Nike:
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Fri May 20, 2022 7:32 pm
They know something I don't.
I admit, he is very likeable, and he has potential. But if this is the bar they are setting, I wonder what kind of contract they will give Carlitos, when the time comes to re-new his contract. $15MM/year is a lot of money for a player with not even a MS1000.
We saw this in the NBA and we know how that turned out. Blake Griffin? Damian Lillard? Chris Paul?
Nope. NBA is different. Nike actually does sign big contracts all the time for top NBA players, some work, some don't. There's varying degrees to the amount, but many are super high numbers. There's also a completely different and broadrer market involved here, one that doesn't involve actually playing basketball.
Sinner getting Federer money when he's only made a single Masters final? Again, I call BS.
by Deuce One would think that the health issues are serious if articles are being written about it...
by ti-amie Saudi Arabia 'are plotting a major push into women's tennis by bringing a WTA Tour event to the Gulf state' - as they look to expand their reach following controversial launch of LIV Golf Series as well as profiles in F1 and football
The WTA have reportedly refused to rule out a possible link up with Saudi Arabia
The Gulf State have come under fire for alleged human rights abuses
China were recently criticised by WTA for treatment of tennis star Peng Shuai
Saudi Arabia are reportedly looking to continue their controversial push to expand their sporting reach as they set their sights on a deal involving women's tennis.
The nation have invested heavily into sport in recent years, with the highly controversial £2billion breakaway LIV Golf Series as well as staging Formula One grands prix and various football projects.
According to the Telegraph, the Women's Tennis Association declined to rule out a potential link up with the state when contacted.
A spokesperson for the WTA confirmed to the publication that: 'We have received inquiries from Saudi Arabia as to interest in bringing a WTA event to the region.
'As a global organisation, we are always interested and appreciative of inquiries received from anywhere in the world and we look seriously at what each opportunity may bring [but] we have not entered into formal negotiations.'
The Saudis have reportedly been seeking a deal with the men's ATP Tour over the past five years, although they have been knocked back in their approaches and now appear to be changing tact.
However the WTA does not hold the same financial security as its men's equivalent tour, especially after taking a strong moral stand against China.
Chief executive Steve Simon had spoken out against China following the apparent silencing of women's tennis star Peng Shuai last year, but the admirable principles have hurt access to a key source of funds for the organisation.
Saudi Arabia have also made approaches in the past to offer eye watering amounts of money to star players to play in exhibition matches.
Former British and world No 1 Andy Murray has been one of many top players to reject an offer, turning down £1.5million to play in the country over concerns regarding human rights in the gulf state.
Saudi Arabia have been criticised by Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch for attempting to boost their nation's reputation by holding global sporting events, a practice known as 'sports washing.'
Homosexuality is illegal in Saudi Arabia while woman's rights also lag, while journalist Jamal Khashoggi, who had frequently criticised the state's royal family, was brutally murdered in the Saudi embassy in Istanbul in 2018.
Murray has long been an advocate of gay rights and women's rights and his representative Matt Gentry said the Scot had no interest in playing in Saudi Arabia due to the country's record on human rights.
'He's turned down stuff in Saudi; I don't think he will play there just because of what's gone on,' Gentry told the podcast SportUnlocked back in January.
'If he feels strongly about something he will happily call it out. He's not scared to voice his opinion.
'They have done a few exhibition matches where they have paid eye-watering sums of money to get players over there and he just wasn't interested.
'For turning up and playing a match, if you are a former No 1 player in the world, in the Middle East you could potentially earn $1m to $2m.
'That's for the top players, the big global names, and I think golf is pretty similar.'
by ponchi101 The logistics: any tournament in the gulf can only be held in the Boreal winter. Otherwise, it has to be an air-conditioned, covered stadium. The weather on any other month will simply melt anybody.
But: A WOMEN'S tournament, in a country where women basically do not have any rights? Plus, what will they do about women in skirts?
I would find it very hypocritical of the WTA to accept that money.
by meganfernandez
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 19, 2022 5:11 pm
The logistics: any tournament in the gulf can only be held in the Boreal winter. Otherwise, it has to be an air-conditioned, covered stadium. The weather on any other month will simply melt anybody.
But: A WOMEN'S tournament, in a country where women basically do not have any rights? Plus, what will they do about women in skirts?
I would find it very hypocritical of the WTA to accept that money.
If I worked for the WTA in on-site operations, I would refuse to go.
by ti-amie Golf is really going through it right now becau$e when beaucoup buck$ are involved rea$on goe$ out of the window.
by ponchi101 A whole bunch of spineless, greedy men. I would like to believe that the women of the WTA have more integrity.
But, as you say. When money talks... We'll see.
by meganfernandez
ponchi101 wrote:A whole bunch of spineless, greedy men. I would like to believe that the women of the WTA have more integrity.
But, as you say. When money talks... We'll see.
A lot of players might be happy to make the money grab. To each their own. So the tour has to decide how best to serve its membership. What if most players aren’t nearly as bothered by the idea as some fans are, and they feel like anyone who doesn’t want to go doesn’t have to but the tour shouldn’t deny the opportunity to everyone.
Tough situation.
by Deuce We must remember, as well, that most of the golfers who 'defected' to the LIV tour, and many of the top tennis players (if they do the same) already have more than enough money to live quite a luxurious lifestyle (or three) for the remainder of their lives.
So they certainly don't NEED the money.
It comes down - once again - to a pissing contest of gathering as much money as is humanly possible just so you can say that you have more money than so-and-so, and so that makes you 'better'.
It's all such a pitiful, immature, juvenile game... but where the consequences are very real.
by ti-amieHas tennis gone soft on drugs? The world's best players have been allowed to pick their own times for 'random tests', and the ITF are under scrutiny after tests were counted THREE times to give inflated figures
The International Tennis Federation lets players book their own drugs tests
Players were invited to secure time slots for tests before this year's Miami Open
Experts say this makes a 'huge difference' to cheats looking to avoid detection
ITF has also been accused of inflating the number of drugs tests that it conducts
By ED WILLISON and JANNIK SCHNEIDER FOR THE MAIL ON SUNDAY
PUBLISHED: 18:09 EDT, 18 June 2022 | UPDATED: 07:25 EDT, 19 June 2022
Tennis' ruling body has been accused of going soft on doping, after a Mail on Sunday investigation found the International Tennis Federation lets the world's best players book their own drug tests.
Players were invited to secure time slots for blood-doping tests before this year's Miami Open, a method anti-doping experts say makes a 'huge difference' to cheats seeking to escape detection.
Players were also given notice that blood samples would be taken before the 2019 French Open and last year's US Open. The former president of the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) compared tennis's approach with cycling's much-criticised failure to expose Lance Armstrong's years of drug-taking.
The International Tennis Federation (ITF) has also been accused of inflating the number of drug tests it conducts, after this newspaper found that it had published 'misleading' data.
'I don't believe that the ITF should announce when they are going to drug test athletes,' said Luis Horta, the former head of Portugal's antidoping agency. 'It's the same thing as in the past in cycling, when they announced that they would test all athletes on the eve of the Tour de France. It's not good.'
Nicole Sapstead is the former chief executive of UK Anti-Doping (UKAD) who is now the director of the ITF's anti-doping programme. The Mail on Sunday has obtained evidence that Sapstead wrote to players informing them that they would be tested in the days prior to this year's Miami Open, which began in March.
The ITF also warned players before the 2019 French Open and the 2021 US Open that they would have to submit a blood sample as part of the ITF's athlete biological passport (ABP) programme.
Before the US and Miami Opens, players were invited to book time slots to undergo these tests through the online 'Tennis Anti-Doping Portal'.
One message sent by Sapstead before the Miami Open read: 'Appointments to provide your ABP sample will be between 09:00 and 18:00 on each day (between 19-22nd March 2022) and will be allocated on a first-come, first-served basis'. This gave players as much as four days' notice of their test.
As part of the ABP, the ITF collects blood samples from players throughout the year to monitor how their blood parameters change over time. Blood doping can be detected by abnormalities in a player's biomarkers.
Athletes can blood dope by taking Erythropoietin (EPO), which increases red blood cell production, or by undergoing blood transfusions. According to the WADA code, athletes should not be warned about up-coming doping tests. The code states that 'save in exceptional and justifiable circumstances, all testing shall be No Advance Notice testing'.
WADA did not clarify what would constitute such circumstances when asked by The Mail on Sunday.
Professor Roger Pielke is the founder of the sports governance centre at the University of Colorado Boulder, and a consultant on sports ethics to international sports bodies. Asked about players being notified of their tests, Prof Pielke said: 'It would seem to be a violation of the "spirit", if not the letter, of the WADA code. It certainly gives an impression of anti-doping theatre.'
The ITF's anti-doping programme has been run by the International Tennis Integrity Agency (ITIA), an independent body, since January this year.
The ITIA said it warns players of ABP tests before some competitions because it allows them to carry out more tests. Regularly tested players are part of the ITF's registered testing pool and have to provide their location for an hour every day of the year when they can be subject to testing.
'The aim is to gather data from as many players as possible so we have the widest set of data to work from,' the ITIA said in a statement. 'Logistically it makes sense therefore to arrange this in advance once or twice a year, so we can test as many players as we can.
'Because we do this ABP testing on an ongoing basis - both with notice and no-notice - it does not make any difference if players know about it in advance. Adverse levels will show, either with this test or through in-competition or out of competition testing.'
However, Rob Parisotto, an Australian stem-cell scientist who pioneered the first test for EPO and was a member of cycling's expert ABP panel, says that the tennis authorities are potentially allowing cheats to escape detection by warning them they will have to provide a sample.
'The ITIA's statement is a remarkably egregious one,' Parisotto said. 'It does make a huge difference if testing is known in advance with regards to blood doping. A three- to four-day window before a tournament would be the ideal period to "top up" your blood volume to maximise oxygen-carrying capacity and therefore improve endurance and recovery capabilities.'
During the US Anti-Doping Agency's investigation into systematic doping by Armstrong, the cyclist's US Postal team-mates admitted they regularly manipulated their blood parameters using saline infusions when they knew they would be drug tested.
The ITF has also been accused of inflating its testing figures after it emerged that they count every sample taken during an individual doping control as a separate test. If a player submits blood, urine and blood-passport samples at the same time, it is counted as three tests rather than one.
The ITF's own official documents list these figures under 'tests per player', and not 'samples per player'. The testing data which The Mail on Sunday obtained for one Russian player, for example, who has been ranked in the top 20, shows that they were tested three times out of competition 2015. The ITF's official figures state they underwent at least seven.
In 2021, Roger Federer, Rafael Nadal and Novak Djokovic were tested nine, 12 and 13 times out of competition respectively, according to ITF statistics.
Former WADA president Dick Pound described the way the ITF collate their figures as 'misleading'. He said: 'I have always been suspicious of the federations that rely on the number of tests administered as opposed to targeting the highest risk players. They seek refuge in the statistics, saying, "Oh, we tested 1,000 players".'
Random out-of-competition doping tests increase the chances of catching competitors who choose to dope. In 2021, the ITF warned players that they would be tested for 16 per cent of all ABP tests. The agency says advanced notice of ABP testing presents players 'with a further challenge around how they deal with the prospect of a test in a few days'.
The ITIA states that for all regular urine and blood testing, samples were collected with no advance notice.
The ITF has never sanctioned a player for abnormalities in their ABP nor for an EPO positive. At most, two in-competition ABP tests were performed at grand slams in 2021, effectively meaning the organisation did not use its ABP to gauge whether players were blood doping at the sport's most important tournaments. It did, however, test directly for EPO.
The ITF's fight against doping has often been under scrutiny over the past 20 years. In 2016, Federer revealed that he had been tested only once in 10 years during offseason warm weather training in Dubai.
Similarly, in testing data obtained by this newspaper, eight Russian players, who were given special approval to compete at the 2016 Olympics despite their country's state-run doping programme, were not tested at all in the 2014 and 2015 off-seasons.
The ITF told The Mail on Sunday that in 2021 nine per cent of all doping samples - not tests - were collected during the off-season.
Sapstead took charge of the ITIA having been director of operations at UKAD when it allowed British Cycling to perform its own 'unofficial' drug tests after a British Olympic cyclist tested positive for trace amounts of steroids around the time of the 2012 London Olympics.
WADA found UKAD's actions were 'inconsistent' with the WADA rules after The Mail on Sunday unearthed the allegations last year.
by ponchi101 That graph is not a proper indication. The number of tennis players is minimal in comparison to soccer, which is played all over the world and has teams and teams with 16 players each. The number competitors in athletics is also way more than in tennis.
Heck, two NFL teams pack already 112 players, not counting the replacement squad.
by Deuce I'd like to see a chart which shows how many athletes per capita from the various sports test positive for banned substances in a given year.
by ti-amie
by ponchi101 What is the solution, in a free market? Impose minimum purses for WTA tournaments that have the same point structure as an ATP?
I am serious about not knowing what to do.
by mmmm8
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:10 pm
What is the solution, in a free market? Impose minimum purses for WTA tournaments that have the same point structure as an ATP?
I am serious about not knowing what to do.
Tie prize money for both men and women to number of points awarded. The WTA should essentially operate like a union, so it really shouldn't be a completely free market.
by ponchi101 But do all same tier tournaments have the same purse? I know there are variations for the MS1000's in the men's, and some pay more than others. For example, what should a WTA 250 pay if there is no participation of the ATP in the same draw? It is easy for the shared events, but I thought that what was being talked about was that, on average, WTA tournaments that are not shared pay less than ATP tournaments.
by ti-amie I think it's gotten worse lately. I posted the first round pay for a recent WTA tournament - i believe it was a 250 - and it wasn't even three thousand Euros!
by Suliso Sponsors don't want to pay as much for WTA only events. No union could change that.
by meganfernandez
ti-amie wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:13 am
I think it's gotten worse lately. I posted the first round pay for a recent WTA tournament - i believe it was a 250 - and it wasn't even three thousand Euros!
Still reflecting pandemic reductions?
by ti-amie
by ponchi101 Thank you, Maddie.
by mmmm8
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:42 pmBut do all same tier tournaments have the same purse? I know there are variations for the MS1000's in the men's, and some pay more than others. For example, what should a WTA 250 pay if there is no participation of the ATP in the same draw? It is easy for the shared events, but I thought that what was being talked about was that, on average, WTA tournaments that are not shared pay less than ATP tournaments.
They don't. I'm saying they should. You want to run a 500? Here's the prize money that the WTA has set at that level? Aren't ready to pay it? You can have a 250.
by ponchi101 I went looking at several WTA 250's, starting with Copa Colsanitas here in Bogota, and it seems they all are around the $250K total commitment mark. Looking at the 500's, they all are around $750K (Charleston offers $900k).
So there seems to be certain homogenous purses depending on the levels.
And, again, they are not similar in prize money compared to their ATP counterparts.
by Suliso They could raise the requirement, but the risk is that it will result in no tournaments at all.
^ Am I missing something?
That just looks truly bizarre.
I see the D and M... a person's head and legs (or 'record' and 'pause'?).
Medvedev is basically an intellectual genius (and can also be a complete asshole), and so there may well be some hidden, coded, obscure message here that is far less than apparent.
by ti-amie Most people thought it was a new Dominic Thiem logo...
by Deuce
ti-amie wrote: ↑Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:33 am
Most people thought it was a new Dominic Thiem logo...
Or Dominika Cibulkova...
Or Max Domi from the NHL...
by Cuckoo4Coco Regardless if the logo is a bit bizarre in the end the brand will be lining his pockets with more cash.
I read the symbols on top and bottom as a video-game reference while also looking like a person. It's playful and clean. I like it.
But no-one will know who it represents unless they are told!
That rather defeats the purpose of individual 'branding', doesn't it?
I work for a branding agency now, and it's fine if some aspects of meaning aren't apparent to everyone. There are lots of design elements in our branding that aren't on-the-nose apparent, but add up to an overall impression. It's all about target demo, too. I'm sure plenty of his fans know he's a gamer, and the target demo is much more likely to associate those symbols with gaming. Heck, if I got it, 25-year-olds are going to get it. I'm also just assuming those are gaming symbols - maybe they aren't. For the people that don't get the literal reference, the goal for the brand is just to look cool, modern and playful. I bet there's a lot more to it. I'd love to read about the design intent.
I'm not sure if it's a fantastic logo, all I know is I like it.
by JazzNU The trademark filing part might be a newish thing, but other players have logos who aren't necessarily marketing powerhouses. Sinner and Barty come to mind as players who unveiled logos. I don't particularly understand Daniil's logo, looks like it would be better suited for Cibulkova than him or Dominic Thiem honestly, but it's fine. I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't take off the way he's hoping it does.
by ti-amie Interesting that it may have a gaming reference with regard to the top and bottom symbols. The only reason I know how big gaming is is because of my son-in-law.
by meganfernandez
ti-amie wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:06 pm
Interesting that it may have a gaming reference with regard to the top and bottom symbols. The only reason I know how big gaming is is because of my son-in-law.
The circular arrangement of the four icons is also reminiscent of a gaming controller.
ti-amie wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:06 pm
Interesting that it may have a gaming reference with regard to the top and bottom symbols. The only reason I know how big gaming is is because of my son-in-law.
The circular arrangement of the four icons is also reminiscent of a gaming controller.
Oh! So it's not meant to be understood by non gamers and olds like me.
ti-amie wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:06 pm
Interesting that it may have a gaming reference with regard to the top and bottom symbols. The only reason I know how big gaming is is because of my son-in-law.
The circular arrangement of the four icons is also reminiscent of a gaming controller.
Oh! So it's not meant to be understood by non gamers and olds like me.
No. We are irrelevant here. And maybe I am way off base. That's my interpretation.
by JazzNU There are several players that are known as gamers, that make money thru Twitch or another platform, some with hefty sponsorships. Daniil is not one of them. So if this is supposed to connote gamer, one would have to ask why. Unless he's keeping his playing very much under wraps, which seems unlikely, I don't think that's what it is. Unless that's something they are targeting in the future and this is more aspirational than anything else.
by mmmm8
JazzNU wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:06 pm
The trademark filing part might be a newish thing, but other players have logos who aren't necessarily marketing powerhouses. Sinner and Barty come to mind as players who unveiled logos. I don't particularly understand Daniil's logo, looks like it would be better suited for Cibulkova than him or Dominic Thiem honestly, but it's fine. I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't take off the way he's hoping it does.
Curious what makes you associate it with Thiem (or Cibulkova... certainly no one outside of Slovakia and hardcore tennis fans would know her)?
I don't know if it's super-great, but I get the reference to Medvedev. He's leaning into the spelling of his name with the two IIs that also form the legs as part of a body on the little icon. It kind of looks like a person hitting a forehand - stretching to a forehand is a common photo I've seen of Medvedev. So, not a super obvious association but I'm not sure what would be an obvious one for him unless it were just a speech bubble that said "Bulls**t Russian"
by JazzNU
mmmm8 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:10 pm
Curious what makes you associate it with Thiem (or Cibulkova... certainly no one outside of Slovakia and hardcore tennis fans would know her)?
mmmm8 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:10 pm
Curious what makes you associate it with Thiem (or Cibulkova... certainly no one outside of Slovakia and hardcore tennis fans would know her)?
Because it looks like it spells out DOMI.
Oh DUH. Missed that completely.
by ti-amie
by ponchi101 Notice how if you change the word COACH for NANNY in Tsitsipas' statement, it changes nothing.
by ti-amie
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:05 pm
Notice how if you change the word COACH for NANNY in Tsitsipas' statement, it changes nothing.
But the same can be said of the women players. Yet coaching is permitted for them (except at Majors).
As I've said many times - either allow in-match coaching or don't allow it, but make it the same for both the ATP and WTA - and at the ITF level for men and women.
Where I feel that in-match coaching should always be permitted is at the Junior level. These kids are learning the game, and I feel that they would learn more efficiently and faster if in-match coaching were permitted.
by ti-amie I agree about coaching at the Junior Level. It would be a sign of maturity, a graduation of sorts, for those players to not need on court/in match coaching when they join the main tour.
by meganfernandez
ti-amie wrote:I agree about coaching at the Junior Level. It would be a sign of maturity, a graduation of sorts, for those players to not need on court/in match coaching when they join the main tour.
What about college?
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by ponchi101 I would agree on college because the format is more like Davis Cup, in the sense that it is a team Vs a team.
by meganfernandez
ponchi101 wrote:I would agree on college because the format is more like Davis Cup, in the sense that it is a team Vs a team.
I’m fine with coaching period, but definitely in juniors and college. It’s how you learn. And you can’t replicate the match pressure, so it’s the only chance for coaching while playing a match. I’d love for a designated USTA league to allow coaching. I got some coaching input in a practice set recently and learned sooo much.
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by Cuckoo4Coco I am fine with coaching while the match is going on. I wouldn't want like a 5 minute conversation to go on between the coach and player though.
by ponchi101 Serena giving statements that she will not retire. From the tone of what she said, she plans to play the USO.
by Cuckoo4Coco
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 5:23 pm
Serena giving statements that she will not retire. From the tone of what she said, she plans to play the USO.
That is awesome news. I want to see what kind of outfit she will wear.
But the same can be said of the women players. Yet coaching is permitted for them (except at Majors).
As I've said many times - either allow in-match coaching or don't allow it, but make it the same for both the ATP and WTA - and at the ITF level for men and women.
I don't think Clarey (or anyone here) is out there saying he likes coaching being allowed for women either. Obviously, it should be consistent for WTA
/ATP/ITF
ti-amie wrote:I agree about coaching at the Junior Level. It would be a sign of maturity, a graduation of sorts, for those players to not need on court/in match coaching when they join the main tour.
What about college?
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There should be coaching there too. If a player wants to move from college to the main tour(s) though that coaching should be tapered off at a certain point so that the player learns how to think their way through a match and not need their hand held every step of the way.
by ponchi101 But. If you get to the stage that you are in college and are still being coached, then WHEN do you learn to navigate the sport at match level?
Plus: There are a considerable number of players that reached the pros and navigated it without a coach by their side. Sampras, Steffi, the Williams, Hingis, Rafa, Nole, Chrissie, Navs, Edberg, Becker, Connors, Borg, Lendl, Mac...... and many more. You see a pattern there. As a matter of fact, the sole player that I can think of that had a constant coaching career was Henin.
So this idea that you need coaching until you are of legal drinking age (in the USA) is kind of unproven, and the data don't support it.
by Cuckoo4Coco
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:44 pm
But. If you get to the stage that you are in college and are still being coached, then WHEN do you learn to navigate the sport at match level?
Plus: There are a considerable number of players that reached the pros and navigated it without a coach by their side. Sampras, Steffi, the Williams, Hingis, Rafa, Nole, Chrissie, Navs, Edberg, Becker, Connors, Borg, Lendl, Mac...... and many more. You see a pattern there. As a matter of fact, the sole player that I can think of that had a constant coaching career was Henin.
So this idea that you need coaching until you are of legal drinking age (in the USA) is kind of unproven, and the data don't support it.
Ya know I really wonder what a coach to Rafa or Djokovic or Medevdev could really add to the conversation when watching tape of an opponent that the player has to play in the next match or even if these top players even do that sort of thing. Maybe a younger player who has not been on the tour a long time and has experience a lot of match play might do that but I really don't know if these top players really scout and prepare for the upcoming players or they just go out and just play there game as usual.
by ti-amie
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:44 pm
But. If you get to the stage that you are in college and are still being coached, then WHEN do you learn to navigate the sport at match level?
Plus: There are a considerable number of players that reached the pros and navigated it without a coach by their side. Sampras, Steffi, the Williams, Hingis, Rafa, Nole, Chrissie, Navs, Edberg, Becker, Connors, Borg, Lendl, Mac...... and many more. You see a pattern there. As a matter of fact, the sole player that I can think of that had a constant coaching career was Henin.
So this idea that you need coaching until you are of legal drinking age (in the USA) is kind of unproven, and the data don't support it.
You can start college around 17/18 years of age so I can see that you may need a coach for your Freshman and Sophomore years. After that you should be able to compete on your own, financial situation allowing of course.
by ponchi101 @ Cuckoo: They scout and prepare, and they go out there with a plan.
Pancho Segura, Jimmy Connors' first coach (together with his mom) would scout opponents and draw strategies on napkins for him. Just an example. But once the match starts, all the great ones were out there by themselves. They knew that facing triple break point, they had to figure it out by themselves.
Also. It would introduce another level of separation between the players. Extreme scenario: YOU go against Coco tomorrow. If coaching is allowed, you and your coach are going against Coco, Moratogliuo, Coco's parents and an entire organization. The top players, if coaching really makes that much of a difference, would gain an extra advantage. Just look at Rafa. He has Moya, but also Carlos Costa, Francis Roig and a couple of extra people in his box. Imagine player ranked #99, alone with his coach, world-non-famous Rupert Mousetrap, having to go against that on top of Rafa. In so many ways, it makes the sport less balanced.
by ti-amie Poor Rupert Mousetrap!
by Cuckoo4Coco
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:00 pm
@ Cuckoo: They scout and prepare, and they go out there with a plan.
Pancho Segura, Jimmy Connors' first coach (together with his mom) would scout opponents and draw strategies on napkins for him. Just an example. But once the match starts, all the great ones were out there by themselves. They knew that facing triple break point, they had to figure it out by themselves.
Also. It would introduce another level of separation between the players. Extreme scenario: YOU go against Coco tomorrow. If coaching is allowed, you and your coach are going against Coco, Moratogliuo, Coco's parents and an entire organization. The top players, if coaching really makes that much of a difference, would gain an extra advantage. Just look at Rafa. He has Moya, but also Carlos Costa, Francis Roig and a couple of extra people in his box. Imagine player ranked #99, alone with his coach, world-non-famous Rupert Mousetrap, having to go against that on top of Rafa. In so many ways, it makes the sport less balanced.
Thanks for explaining that. Was Jimmy Connors young at that time when he did the scouting with his coach and mom? Like later when he became older do you think he did it as much?
I know these players have an entire team with them now and I have never really experienced anything like that other than just having a coach and my family in my corner. Once I got to my high school team this past year because my 9th grade year was cancelled because of Covid I had my coach for the team and also my teammates and if a family member came to a match. So it is a little different from all they have in their corner now. I also don't really scout upcoming opponents because most of them there is nothing to scout and I have no clue who they are sometimes.
Once I get into college I guess they will have a trainer for the team as well which will be something totally new for me.
by JazzNU
ti-amie wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:54 pm
You can start college around 17/18 years of age so I can see that you may need a coach for your Freshman and Sophomore years. After that you should be able to compete on your own, financial situation allowing of course.
Agreed. Also, ditching coaches in college doesn't feel right to me at all. It's a time for learning, whether in sports, academics, or just life. One of the advantages of college sports is definitely the structure and included coaching that you get that help shape you as a player and a person. Doesn't sit right to make tennis the only college sport I can think of that would lack coaches.
Thanks for explaining that. Was Jimmy Connors young at that time when he did the scouting with his coach and mom? Like later when he became older do you think he did it as much?
...
Segura coached the young Connors. They remained close all their lives but Segura slowly faded out as coach. Gloria, Connors' mother, truly remained his coach until late in his playing career.
Thanks for explaining that. Was Jimmy Connors young at that time when he did the scouting with his coach and mom? Like later when he became older do you think he did it as much?
...
Segura coached the young Connors. They remained close all their lives but Segura slowly faded out as coach. Gloria, Connors' mother, truly remained his coach until late in his playing career.
Gloria Connors is never (rarely) listed among the ranks of female tennis coaches either.
by Deuce
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:44 pm
But. If you get to the stage that you are in college and are still being coached, then WHEN do you learn to navigate the sport at match level?
Plus: There are a considerable number of players that reached the pros and navigated it without a coach by their side. Sampras, Steffi, the Williams, Hingis, Rafa, Nole, Chrissie, Navs, Edberg, Becker, Connors, Borg, Lendl, Mac...... and many more. You see a pattern there. As a matter of fact, the sole player that I can think of that had a constant coaching career was Henin.
So this idea that you need coaching until you are of legal drinking age (in the USA) is kind of unproven, and the data don't support it.
Chrissie always had her dad around to help her... He knew a thing or two about tennis...
I think Tony Pickard started with Edberg pretty early...
I maintain that, at the pro level, coaches are most often just glorified cheerleaders. Some pro coaches have developed a 'good' reputation for themselves based more on their own self-marketing than on actual results.
Pro players know what they're doing. They know how to hit all the shots technically... they know when to select which shot... What coaches mostly help with is the psychological element - self-confidence, belief, etc. - just navigating the tour psychologically and emotionally. And making the hotel reservations and picking up the balls during practice!
Leylah's dad, for example, was never a tennis guy. He's a soccer guy. He can help with the self-confidence, belief, etc. because he knows sports at a high level. He pushes Leylah hard. And even on the days when she's fed up with that pushing, she appreciates it and knows that she is benefiting from it.
But his biggest asset is that he has a wonderful relationship with Leylah. They understand and trust each other implicitly. If ever a separate coach came in to replace him - even if it's some high profile so-called 'expert' coach - there is no possible way that Leylah would have as tight a bond and understanding with the new coach as she has with her dad - and so I'm quite sure she'd lose significantly more than she'd gain.
And that understanding and trust is worth a hell of a lot more than any technical or strategic guidance at the pro level in my opinion.
by Cuckoo4Coco I have my grandpa and mom who are more the psychological-self confidence part and cheer leaders for me. My coach is that too but he is also the tennis guy who teaches me a lot about technique and how to handle myself on the court. He also supports all the things my mom says as she is the one that pays him like school comes first and only certain amount of hours of training per week and only certain tournaments that my mom has to agree to. The main thing is I know they all are looking out for the best for me. That is what is the most important to me and that is what makes it all so much fun.
by ponchi101 I should have written my post better. All the great ones had coaches; they didn't have them on court during the matches, which was the subject being talked about.
The way you describe your situation seems very well balanced. You obviously love the sport, but your goals are clearly identifiable AND achievable. As much as we have joked about it, you becoming a pro is not something there, but I would dare say that, if after 4 years of US College tennis you show that maybe that path is a possibility, you and your team will re-evaluate. Which is what a good coaching team does.
by Cuckoo4Coco
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:25 pm
I should have written my post better. All the great ones had coaches; they didn't have them on court during the matches, which was the subject being talked about.
The way you describe your situation seems very well balanced. You obviously love the sport, but your goals are clearly identifiable AND achievable. As much as we have joked about it, you becoming a pro is not something there, but I would dare say that, if after 4 years of US College tennis you show that maybe that path is a possibility, you and your team will re-evaluate. Which is what a good coaching team does.
Of course it has always been my dream to become a pro. Any kid who picks up a racquet and dedicates their time from a really early age has to have that in the back of their mind . I am no different. Right now do I have the skill for that, I don't think so. I need to do a lot more work and become a lot stronger. Can that happen in the next 6 years? Sure it can with a ton of hard work. I am always told by my coach to take things one day at a time and things will fall into place. That is what I am doing. I work on things in my game everyday to improve them. Whether it be a stroke technique,volleys, serves,strength or whatever I work on something everyday. Yeah I think about what college I might want to go to in the future, but that is really more for the academic part of it than the playing tennis part at least for right now. Yeah the schools I am looking at do have good tennis programs of course but right now that is really not my main focus. I think after this coming year(my 11th grade year) I will start to focus more on that. I have so many great people feeding me so much good advice and I now even include the members here in on that. Like I said from day one I take everything in. I usually don't miss much when it comes to tennis.
by ti-amie
by Deuce Should have been $50 Million.
by ponchi101 They created this entire mess themselves. Deal with it.
by Cuckoo4Coco I wasn't gonna say anything about this because I really don't know much about the whole ins and outs of the Ukraine/Russia war. All I know is War Sucks. I do think though that most all these Russian players that were banned from this event because of this War and political thing they are most likely against it. So to ban them for something they are not even a part of really in support of doesn't make much sense to me at all.
by meganfernandez
Cuckoo4Coco wrote:I wasn't gonna say anything about this because I really don't know much about the whole ins and outs of the Ukraine/Russia war. All I know is War Sucks. I do think though that most all these Russian players that were banned from this event because of this War and political thing they are most likely against it. So to ban them for something they are not even a part of really in support of doesn't make much sense to me at all.
Cuckoo4Coco wrote:I wasn't gonna say anything about this because I really don't know much about the whole ins and outs of the Ukraine/Russia war. All I know is War Sucks. I do think though that most all these Russian players that were banned from this event because of this War and political thing they are most likely against it. So to ban them for something they are not even a part of really in support of doesn't make much sense to me at all.
I feel the same. Didn’t accomplish much.
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I guess what it ended up accomplishing is less money in the bank account.
Cuckoo4Coco wrote:I wasn't gonna say anything about this because I really don't know much about the whole ins and outs of the Ukraine/Russia war. All I know is War Sucks. I do think though that most all these Russian players that were banned from this event because of this War and political thing they are most likely against it. So to ban them for something they are not even a part of really in support of doesn't make much sense to me at all.
I feel the same. Didn’t accomplish much.
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I guess what it ended up accomplishing is less money in the bank account.
Haha, true! We'll see if Wimbledon actually pays these fines. What will the tours do if Wimbledon doesn't pay up? Not sure they have any leverage or recourse other than courts and not awarding W's points. It will be stuck in legal battles for years.
by ponchi101 The kind of legal argument that will have London lawyers salivating for years. The fees, the fees!
Horrible news. Will Ben cover it like he did Zverev's allegations? He has tweeted the news. By they way, is Ben not with the New York Times anymore? It's not in his bio.
by ponchi101 Let's hope the Australian justice system is thorough, and a veritable verdict is reached.
by Cuckoo4Coco This is horrible news.
When this has happened in the NFL and the allegations have come to be true that pretty much ended the careers of the players. No teams wanted any part of them.
Horrible news. Will Ben cover it like he did Zverev's allegations? He has tweeted the news. By they way, is Ben not with the New York Times anymore? It's not in his bio.
I believe he's freelance now and publishes in multi places
by Irena2 I hope this gets covered as well as the allegations against Zverev have been. I'm so disappointed to hear this.
by ti-amie Kyrgios case most resembles that of Nikoloz Basilashvili whose case of domestic violence was taken to court in his country of Georgia yet he continues to play main tour tournaments. No one ever talks about that.
by meganfernandez
ti-amie wrote:Kyrgios case most resembles that of Nikoloz Basilashvili whose case of domestic violence was taken to court in his country of Georgia yet he continues to play main tour tournaments. No one ever talks about that.
Because he isn’t a popular player or a star. Not excusing it, just an explanation, I think.
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by ponchi101 Basilashvili's case is ongoing, and the details are not very clear in favor of his ex-wife. His claim that she was refusing him his visitation rights seem not to be unfounded.
by Deuce Yes - let's not be too quick to condemn, please - despite what the 'political correctness' plague wants everyone to do in every circumstance.
Allegations like these could be honest and legitimate, or they could be highly exaggerated or even completely fabricated.
As much as I think Kyrgios is an asshole, we are dealing with millionaires here, so there's lots of money to be potentially had in accusing rich people of things.
by Cuckoo4Coco
Deuce wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:45 pm
Yes - let's not be too quick to condemn, please - despite what the 'political correctness' plague wants everyone to do in every circumstance.
Allegations like these could be honest and legitimate, or they could be highly exaggerated or even completely fabricated.
As much as I think Kyrgios is an asshole, we are dealing with millionaires here, so there's lots of money to be potentially had in accusing rich people of things.
I agree, we have to let this whole thing play out . As much as I don't like Nick I don't know 100% sure if he did this or not. I actually hope he didn't. The thing is if he did then the ATP Tour needs to take action and remove him from the tour.
by ponchi101 I don't know if the players in the ATP have some sort of code of conduct that applies to them. If the ATP were to remove him based solely on what now amounts as allegations, the Australian cousins of the lawyers that are salivating over the fine imposed on Wimbledon and the LTA would do the same in Canberra.
by Cuckoo4Coco
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:53 pm
I don't know if the players in the ATP have some sort of code of conduct that applies to them. If the ATP were to remove him based solely on what now amounts as allegations, the Australian cousins of the lawyers that are salivating over the fine imposed on Wimbledon and the LTA would do the same in Canberra.
I don't think the ATP can remove him just on allegations, but if this goes through the legal system and he is found guilty of this then he should be immediately removed.
by Owendonovan Is anyone surprised?
by ponchi101 Sincerely, a little bit. His good deeds off court have been well documented, surprisingly he is well liked by several other players (Murray perhaps the most prominent). Did my jaw drop? No. But it was a bit off the map.
About his removal from the tour. One article I read said he is facing a two years jail sentence. Which is how I would like these cases to be resolved. Let the legal system of each country handle justice.
by meganfernandez
ponchi101 wrote:Sincerely, a little bit. His good deeds off court have been well documented, surprisingly he is well liked by several other players (Murray perhaps the most prominent). Did my jaw drop? No. But it was a bit off the map.
About his removal from the tour. One article I read said he is facing a two years jail sentence. Which is how I would like these cases to be resolved. Let the legal system of each country handle justice.
I thought they were still together! Assumed the brunette in his box was Chiara. Otherwise same reaction…
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by Owendonovan
Cuckoo4Coco wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:57 pm
This is horrible news.
When this has happened in the NFL and the allegations have come to be true that pretty much ended the careers of the players. No teams wanted any part of them.
Unless you're Deshaun Watson, Cleveland threw him $230 million with dozens of allegations of inappropriate sexual behavior.
Cuckoo4Coco wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:57 pm
This is horrible news.
When this has happened in the NFL and the allegations have come to be true that pretty much ended the careers of the players. No teams wanted any part of them.
Unless you're Deshaun Watson, Cleveland threw him $230 million with dozens of allegations of inappropriate sexual behavior.
But was he ever found guilty of any of those in a court of law?
If he is found guilty that will be a lot of wasted money.
I’m guessing if he’s found guilty, the contract will be voided and they won’t have to pay him the rest. They pay him that amount of $$ over time, not all at once.
If he is found guilty that will be a lot of wasted money.
I’m guessing if he’s found guilty, the contract will be voided and they won’t have to pay him the rest. They pay him that amount of $$ over time, not all at once.
I knew they paid him over time, but didn't know if he was found guilty that it would be voided. Didn't they also get rid of Baker Mayfield who was their QB before Watson?
Cuckoo4Coco wrote:
If he is found guilty that will be a lot of wasted money.
I’m guessing if he’s found guilty, the contract will be voided and they won’t have to pay him the rest. They pay him that amount of $$ over time, not all at once.
I knew they paid him over time, but didn't know if he was found guilty that it would be voided. Didn't they also get rid of Baker Mayfield who was their QB before Watson?
Just guessing. If they knew charges were pending before they signed the contract, surely they built in an exit clause.
by ponchi101 The Browns had hinted that, if he is found guilty and cannot play, either because the law will thrown him behind bars OR the NFL will suspend him, payments will be affected accordingly.
by Cuckoo4Coco That makes sense. If he is found guilty he won't be able to honor his contract so they should be able to void it.
It is different though for a tennis player. If they are found guilty it still comes down to the tour to decide how they want to handle the situation. It would be a terrible shame if they let any player who would be found guilty of doing something like this continue to play. It would really upset me a lot on the game I love to watch and play if that would happen.
by ponchi101 I don't recall if the ATP or WTA have ever suspended any player for anything other than doping violations. They have issued suspended suspensions, but that is the extent of their bite.
by Cuckoo4Coco
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 8:45 pm
I don't recall if the ATP or WTA have ever suspended any player for anything other than doping violations. They have issued suspended suspensions, but that is the extent of their bite.
That is sad especially in these sorts of situations where they should take a strong stand against violence and assaults.
At various points in the same match, Năstase spat at his opponent, refused to play after the crowd booed him, and called the umpire a “son of a bitch”. When his opponent tied the match in the decisive set, Năstase smashed a ball at a photographer and swung at him with his racket. Năstase would go on to win the match, but was suspended for 21 days and fined $1,000.
“Players were getting away with murder,” says Kaufman, who was in the crowd for an even more infamous match three years later between Năstase and the equally difficult American player John McEnroe, in which the Romanian behaved so badly that the umpire awarded McEnroe the match. The umpire himself was eventually replaced and, after a 17-minute delay, Năstase was reinstated. The crowd were so riled that fights broke out in the stands. The match was completed with police on court.
But hey tennis isn't about, well, all of the above.
by Cuckoo4Coco
ti-amie wrote: ↑Thu Jul 07, 2022 7:07 pm
From the above article:
At various points in the same match, Năstase spat at his opponent, refused to play after the crowd booed him, and called the umpire a “son of a bitch”. When his opponent tied the match in the decisive set, Năstase smashed a ball at a photographer and swung at him with his racket. Năstase would go on to win the match, but was suspended for 21 days and fined $1,000.
“Players were getting away with murder,” says Kaufman, who was in the crowd for an even more infamous match three years later between Năstase and the equally difficult American player John McEnroe, in which the Romanian behaved so badly that the umpire awarded McEnroe the match. The umpire himself was eventually replaced and, after a 17-minute delay, Năstase was reinstated. The crowd were so riled that fights broke out in the stands. The match was completed with police on court.
But hey tennis isn't about, well, all of the above.
Oh Wow, spitting at an opponent and smashing a ball at a photographer and only getting that sort of suspension and fined $1000 dollars. He probably could have reached into his wallet and pulled that kind of cash out of it and paid that on the spot.
Was the match against McEnroe and Nastase at the US Open perhaps? It sounds like something that would happen in the stands at that event.
Oh Wow, spitting at an opponent and smashing a ball at a photographer and only getting that sort of suspension and fined $1000 dollars. He probably could have reached into his wallet and pulled that kind of cash out of it and paid that on the spot.
Was the match against McEnroe and Nastase at the US Open perhaps? It sounds like something that would happen in the stands at that event.
Very perceptive. 1979 USO. Fourth round, IIRC (but not sure).
Prize money at the time was considerable less than nowadays. Borg retired, for example, with $3.5MM in prize money. That is less than what the current USO winner gets. So $1,000 was reasonable, at the time (as a fine).
Nastase was truly a disgrace on court, on several occasions.
Oh Wow, spitting at an opponent and smashing a ball at a photographer and only getting that sort of suspension and fined $1000 dollars. He probably could have reached into his wallet and pulled that kind of cash out of it and paid that on the spot.
Was the match against McEnroe and Nastase at the US Open perhaps? It sounds like something that would happen in the stands at that event.
Very perceptive. 1979 USO. Fourth round, IIRC (but not sure).
Prize money at the time was considerable less than nowadays. Borg retired, for example, with $3.5MM in prize money. That is less than what the current USO winner gets. So $1,000 was reasonable, at the time (as a fine).
Nastase was truly a disgrace on court, on several occasions.
I thought the prize money would have been less, but that is a lot less.
I knew it had to be the US Open. That crowd can get loud and rowdy, especially at those really late night matches.
by 3mlm
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 8:45 pm
I don't recall if the ATP or WTA have ever suspended any player for anything other than doping violations. They have issued suspended suspensions, but that is the extent of their bite.
PLayers, and even a line judge, have been suspended for gambling on tennis matches on several occasions.
by ponchi101 And, Nastase was also suspended 21 days after the 1979 USO fiasco (looked it up).
So, I stand corrected. txs.
Some of the gambling issues actually resulted in lifetime bans. Nobody of any stature, needless to say.
by ti-amie THANK YOU ANDY RODDICK!
by ponchi101 I am so undecided in that issue. We allow LL's in the first round. But I see Andy's point.
I guess we have to accept these things as the nature of the sport.
by JazzNU
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 08, 2022 12:50 am
I am so undecided in that issue. We allow LL's in the first round. But I see Andy's point.
I guess we have to accept these things as the nature of the sport.
But qualifying is basically considered to be a different tournament from the main draw, which is why they have their own bracket and it's not tied to the main draw other than winning 3 rounds gets you a spot in it. When LL are placed in the main draw, the main tournament has yet to begin, it's locked once it does. First Round are keywords there imo.
by ponchi101 Sure. As I tell you, I am completely undecided. On the one hand, I see that tomorrow's line up may be short lived, and Novak can win in a hurry, so it is a bad day for the tournament. So, let the losing quarterfinalist fill in the gap.
But Roddick's point is spot on. You can't lose in the QF's or Semis and still win the tournament. It would be totally odd, and for many, wrong.
by Cuckoo4Coco To win a Major tournament you have to win 7 games if you are in the main draw from the beginning and even more matches if you have to qualify and are lucky enough to make it through the draw and win it. There is no losing in a round and then the next round waking up and seeing Oh the player that just beat me has to withdraw so I am getting a 2nd chance. If that would happen and a player that loses would go onto win a Major tournament there would be a major asterisk next to their name for sure.
by ashkor87 That did happen with Coco last year, not at a major...nobody said it tarnished her trophy! On the contrary, everyone appreciated, rightly, her resilience..
by 3mlm
Cuckoo4Coco wrote: ↑Fri Jul 08, 2022 2:39 am
To win a Major tournament you have to win 7 games if you are in the main draw from the beginning and even more matches if you have to qualify and are lucky enough to make it through the draw and win it. There is no losing in a round and then the next round waking up and seeing Oh the player that just beat me has to withdraw so I am getting a 2nd chance. If that would happen and a player that loses would go onto win a Major tournament there would be a major asterisk next to their name for sure.
ashkor87 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 08, 2022 2:46 am
That did happen with Coco last year, not at a major...nobody said it tarnished her trophy! On the contrary, everyone appreciated, rightly, her resilience..
What tournament was that? I see nothing in Gauff's 2021 tournaments where she lost a match but got a second chance because the player who beat her withdrew from the next round and then Gauff won the tournament. Barty retired against her at Rome and Brady at Roland Garros (while Brady was ahead) but she didn't win either of those tournaments. Potapova retired against her at Montreal and then she got a walkover from Konta in the next match but she didn't win that tournament either.
Cuckoo4Coco wrote: ↑Fri Jul 08, 2022 2:39 am
To win a Major tournament you have to win 7 games if you are in the main draw from the beginning and even more matches if you have to qualify and are lucky enough to make it through the draw and win it. There is no losing in a round and then the next round waking up and seeing Oh the player that just beat me has to withdraw so I am getting a 2nd chance. If that would happen and a player that loses would go onto win a Major tournament there would be a major asterisk next to their name for sure.
ashkor87 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 08, 2022 2:46 am
That did happen with Coco last year, not at a major...nobody said it tarnished her trophy! On the contrary, everyone appreciated, rightly, her resilience..
What tournament was that? I see nothing in Gauff's 2021 tournaments where she lost a match but got a second chance because the player who beat her withdrew from the next round and then Gauff won the tournament. Barty retired against her at Rome and Brady at Roland Garros (while Brady was ahead) but she didn't win either of those tournaments. Potapova retired against her at Montreal and then she got a walkover from Konta in the next match but she didn't win that tournament either.
Maybe not last year..a small tournament in Europe...
Cuckoo4Coco wrote: ↑Fri Jul 08, 2022 2:39 am
To win a Major tournament you have to win 7 games if you are in the main draw from the beginning and even more matches if you have to qualify and are lucky enough to make it through the draw and win it. There is no losing in a round and then the next round waking up and seeing Oh the player that just beat me has to withdraw so I am getting a 2nd chance. If that would happen and a player that loses would go onto win a Major tournament there would be a major asterisk next to their name for sure.
ashkor87 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 08, 2022 2:46 am
That did happen with Coco last year, not at a major...nobody said it tarnished her trophy! On the contrary, everyone appreciated, rightly, her resilience..
What tournament was that? I see nothing in Gauff's 2021 tournaments where she lost a match but got a second chance because the player who beat her withdrew from the next round and then Gauff won the tournament. Barty retired against her at Rome and Brady at Roland Garros (while Brady was ahead) but she didn't win either of those tournaments. Potapova retired against her at Montreal and then she got a walkover from Konta in the next match but she didn't win that tournament either.
Maybe not last year..a small tournament in Europe...
You must be thinking of Linz where she won her first WTA tournament and first win over a top ten player in 2019 when she was 15, the youngest player to win a WTA tournament since 2004. She didn't lose a match in the main draw; she lost in qualifying and entered the main draw as a lucky loser.
by Suliso Winning a tournament as a lucky loser and winning a GS by playing less than seven matches is possible and has happened a few times. One of Roger's Wimbledon titles was only six matches because someone withdrew (Tommy Haas?). What is not possible and shouldn't be possible is winning a tournament after losing yourself in the main draw.
by meganfernandez
ponchi101 wrote:I am so undecided in that issue. We allow LL's in the first round. But I see Andy's point.
I guess we have to accept these things as the nature of the sport.
Absolutely, nature of the sport. It doesn’t happen too much. Are we feeling sorry for Centre Court ticketholders or any tennis crowd because one match is cancelled? People who have the luxury of attending a live tennis match on a weekday? Boo freaking hoo. We need some perspective. Even if I had saved money and taken vacation and going to Wimbledon as my dream … so what. Still had a nice time. In this case, people still get to see 3 matches on Centre.
Allowing a loser to return would be overkill to a rare situation. It’s something we care about in the moment, then it passes and it doesn’t matter.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
by Fastbackss "It doesn't happen too much" is sometimes how we get to rule changes (see 5th set TB's).
I fully understand there are other elements at work with my analogy, but in my brain there are some similarities as well
by ponchi101 I remember when the TB was introduced in Wimbledon. It was after the K. Anderson/J. isner SF that left Anderson so drained he could do nothing in the final.
Miles pointed out that this was not a WIMBLEDON/GRASS problem. It was a JOHN ISNER problem; a player that could not be broken, and that could not break.
I guess it should be left the way it is, after reading these comments here. Too bad for today.
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 08, 2022 12:50 am
I am so undecided in that issue. We allow LL's in the first round. But I see Andy's point.
I guess we have to accept these things as the nature of the sport.
But qualifying is basically considered to be a different tournament from the main draw, which is why they have their own bracket and it's not tied to the main draw other than winning 3 rounds gets you a spot in it. When LL are placed in the main draw, the main tournament has yet to begin, it's locked once it does. First Round are keywords there imo.
This is precisely the reason why it is a false analogy
by Cuckoo4Coco In my opinion there should be no lucky losers allowed into the draw. Whether it be in the 1st round or whatever. You lose a match, you should be done in the tournament. Whether that be in the qualifiers or the main draw. If there is an injury or Covid and someone has to withdraw than that is just the luck of the draw for the opponent. No replacements that lost earlier in the draw.
by ponchi101 You have to sell tickets too.
Also: how would it feel if the first round "victory" of the eventual winner was never even played?
As I said, I was undecided. But when every single pro is against it, and even the guy that could have benefited from that rule (Fritz) is against it, I guess this is settled.
Yeah, leave it like it is.
by Cuckoo4Coco
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 3:18 pm
You have to sell tickets too.
Also: how would it feel if the first round "victory" of the eventual winner was never even played?
As I said, I was undecided. But when every single pro is against it, and even the guy that could have benefited from that rule (Fritz) is against it, I guess this is settled.
Yeah, leave it like it is.
I do understand that tickets need to be sold. I also get that you want the eventual winner of the tournament to win every match the conventional way, but things do happen along the way in every tournament. I guess I am more receptive to the Lucky Loser coming out of the qualifiers for the 1st Round then loser from the previous rounds in later rounds. I cannot get onboard for that at all. Taylor Fritz is completely right about being the Nadal replacement against Kyrgios at Wimbledon. It shouldn't have even been brought up.
by mmmm8 Putting this here given the political implications.
Daria Kasatkina, the top ranked Russian, has come out as gay. She follows in the footsteps of a female footballer who came out just a month ago and was the first professional Russian female athlete to come out.
It was during a YouTube video interview, so hasn't hit English-language media yet.
by ponchi101 Needless to say, let's wish her all the happiness she can get, with her GF.
But, as you say, that is pretty brave, given the political implications. LGBT people are still openly harassed and discriminated in Russia, right? I have not followed that news but I remember on-line videos and statements about how they can be treated in Russia. Let's hope she can avoid that and that she can be an example to others.
by Cuckoo4Coco
mmmm8 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 18, 2022 5:47 pm
Putting this here given the political implications.
Daria Kasatkina, the top ranked Russian, has come out as gay. She follows in the footsteps of a female footballer who came out just a month ago and was the first professional Russian female athlete to come out.
It was during a YouTube video interview, so hasn't hit English-language media yet.
I think this is so awesome and she is so brave. Not only for herself , but also for the LGBTQ community and her country. I cannot imagine how many girls and boys who are from Russia are afraid to come out and express who they really are because of their government and this young lady becomes so brave and stands up to the government and her statement is going to help so many other people. I say BRAVO to her.
by ti-amie English translation
by ti-amie She did an interview last year with her parents and her brother (seen above) where she put her foot out of the closet. I hope she and her family are safe.
by ti-amie
by ponchi101 Hooray for Rublev but, any Russian teaming up with an Ukrainian at Wimby would have been risking a lot. A lot of a lot.
by Cuckoo4Coco It blows my mind that this government truly believes that these athletes agree with this crap that they are doing and they stand with them when all they want is the total opposite but can't say what they stand for. It makes me sick.
by ponchi101 That's what it is like to be a citizen of a dictatorship.
You are not entitled to a differing opinion.
by Cuckoo4Coco
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 18, 2022 10:43 pm
That's what it is like to be a citizen of a dictatorship.
You are not entitled to a differing opinion.
That is so very sad.
by mmmm8 Her girlfriend is 2018 Olympic Silver Medalist in pairs skating (then representing Russia), Natalia Zabiiako. Zabiiako now competes for Canada
by ashkor87 I was wondering why she lost to Siniakova..all this stress! Very brave, I agree..hope she does a Rybakina and seeks citizenship elsewhere..
by ponchi101 Ah, she did not stop at an announcement of being gay. She denounced Russia's policies affecting the LGBT+ community, and called for the end to the Ukrainian invasion. She also said she does not know if she can return to Russia after her statements, which, of course, is a totally correct fear.
Downright courages
by Cuckoo4Coco
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:26 pm
Ah, she did not stop at an announcement of being gay. She denounced Russia's policies affecting the LGBT+ community, and called for the end to the Ukrainian invasion. She also said she does not know if she can return to Russia after her statements, which, of course, is a totally correct fear.
Downright courages
As another member here stated her GF did participate as an athlete for Canada and became a citizen there so maybe she will decide to just live there.
by ponchi101 Kasatkina lives and trains in Spain. I wonder how easy would be for her to get a Spanish passport.
For example, I have been trying to get a Colombian passport now for over 2 1/2 years. No go. (Residency for the wealthy is perfectly easy).
by mmmm8
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:26 pm
Ah, she did not stop at an announcement of being gay. She denounced Russia's policies affecting the LGBT+ community, and called for the end to the Ukrainian invasion. She also said she does not know if she can return to Russia after her statements, which, of course, is a totally correct fear.
Downright courages
I just watched that moment where she and the interviewer discuss the possibility of not being able to return, they both cry.
To be clear, the concern about not being able to return is around statements related to the war, not around her coming out.
It may be worse for men (Rublev, for example, who was part of this interview and has spoken out against the war before). You may have seen in the news, there are a couple NHL players that have been conscripted into the army and are unable to leave Russia. Previously, representing the country internationally in athletic competition counted as an alternative to/reason to be excused from military service.
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:26 pm
Ah, she did not stop at an announcement of being gay. She denounced Russia's policies affecting the LGBT+ community, and called for the end to the Ukrainian invasion. She also said she does not know if she can return to Russia after her statements, which, of course, is a totally correct fear.
Downright courages
I just watched that moment where she and the interviewer discuss the possibility of not being able to return, they both cry.
To be clear, the concern about not being able to return is around statements related to the war, not around her coming out.
It may be worse for men (Rublev, for example, who was part of this interview and has spoken out against the war before). You may have seen in the news, there are a couple NHL players that have been conscripted into the army and are unable to leave Russia. Previously, representing the country internationally in athletic competition counted as an alternative to/reason to be excused from military service.
I would also have to think it can't be very easy for these athletes to just go off to another country and know that their families are still there. I know they travel all over the world playing tennis, but that is traveling and not leaving for good.
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:26 pm
Ah, she did not stop at an announcement of being gay. She denounced Russia's policies affecting the LGBT+ community, and called for the end to the Ukrainian invasion. She also said she does not know if she can return to Russia after her statements, which, of course, is a totally correct fear.
Downright courages
I just watched that moment where she and the interviewer discuss the possibility of not being able to return, they both cry.
To be clear, the concern about not being able to return is around statements related to the war, not around her coming out.
It may be worse for men (Rublev, for example, who was part of this interview and has spoken out against the war before). You may have seen in the news, there are a couple NHL players that have been conscripted into the army and are unable to leave Russia. Previously, representing the country internationally in athletic competition counted as an alternative to/reason to be excused from military service.
Didn't know that.
I can remotely "relate" to her anguish, as I am flying back home on Saturday (I need to get a new passport and Venezuela closed the embassy in Bogota, so I can't get one here) and I am already freaking out. Yesterday I started to have nightmares about back home. So, for Daria, if she cannot secure a new passport, these statements can be serious problems.
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:26 pm
Ah, she did not stop at an announcement of being gay. She denounced Russia's policies affecting the LGBT+ community, and called for the end to the Ukrainian invasion. She also said she does not know if she can return to Russia after her statements, which, of course, is a totally correct fear.
Downright courages
I just watched that moment where she and the interviewer discuss the possibility of not being able to return, they both cry.
To be clear, the concern about not being able to return is around statements related to the war, not around her coming out.
It may be worse for men (Rublev, for example, who was part of this interview and has spoken out against the war before). You may have seen in the news, there are a couple NHL players that have been conscripted into the army and are unable to leave Russia. Previously, representing the country internationally in athletic competition counted as an alternative to/reason to be excused from military service.
Didn't know that.
I can remotely "relate" to her anguish, as I am flying back home on Saturday (I need to get a new passport and Venezuela closed the embassy in Bogota, so I can't get one here) and I am already freaking out. Yesterday I started to have nightmares about back home. So, for Daria, if she cannot secure a new passport, these statements can be serious problems.
So what does that mean for you? If you are unable to obtain a new passport for Columbia then you are forced to go back to Venezuela?
by ponchi101 I have to go back to Venezuela because there are no consular services here in Bogota (it's ColOmbia, girl, ColOmbia!!! ). And, because they can tell I am outside the country, I cannot start the process from here because the system tells me that I am outside, so I have to get there and ask for an EXTENSION, because the Vennie government is not issuing passports. So, I get to pay around $125 for, literally, a sticker they paste on my passport and extends its validity for 5 years. And, that will take about two weeks, if I am lucky.
Venezuela is a special place in the sense that public services do not work and are, at best, randomly functional. Three months ago: no problems with passports, but I could not get a new one because mine still had 6 months before expiration. One month ago, the entire system collapsed. So I am leaving on Saturday, and I really don't know when I will be able to return home.
by Cuckoo4Coco
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 4:09 pm
I have to go back to Venezuela because there are no consular services here in Bogota (it's ColOmbia, girl, ColOmbia!!! ). And, because they can tell I am outside the country, I cannot start the process from here because the system tells me that I am outside, so I have to get there and ask for an EXTENSION, because the Vennie government is not issuing passports. So, I get to pay around $125 for, literally, a sticker they paste on my passport and extends its validity for 5 years. And, that will take about two weeks, if I am lucky.
Venezuela is a special place in the sense that public services do not work and are, at best, randomly functional. Three months ago: no problems with passports, but I could not get a new one because mine still had 6 months before expiration. One month ago, the entire system collapsed. So I am leaving on Saturday, and I really don't know when I will be able to return home.
That really sucks. I am so sorry. It seems like the whole system is a mess or at least the system in Venezuela is a mess. I don't know if I will ever get use to Colombia just because there is a Columbia , Maryland here.
by Suliso I had forgotten that Kasatkina lives in Spain. That explains it to some extent, but still a brave stance of course.
by meganfernandez
Suliso wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 6:07 pm
I had forgotten that Kasatkina lives in Spain. That explains it to some extent, but still a brave stance of course.
For sure. Especially if her family still lives in Russia.
Suliso wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 6:07 pm
I had forgotten that Kasatkina lives in Spain. That explains it to some extent, but still a brave stance of course.
For sure. Especially if her family still lives in Russia.
Even with all the travelling these players do and being away from their families, this still would be really hard to have to leave the country for good that their family lives.
by ti-amie
by ti-amie Background
via @Jannik Schneider
Exclusive: after a long research @MarkusHarm and myself publish a TV piece for the @sportstudio reportage today about matchfixing
According to ZDF info top 50 players Basilashvilli and Karatsev + their former coach Yahor Yatsyk are allegedly involved in matchfixing
Thread 1/
Belarusian coach Yahor Yatsyk, who coached and traveled with both Basilashvilli and Karatsev, has offered players money to matchfix matches on at least two occasions in the past. This emerges from secret investigation docs from ITF
ZDF has data of five allegedly machtfixed matches with unusually high betting swings in which Karatsev is said to be involved. 2 fall in the period of cooperation with Yatysk (2018 until 2021) - a doubles in Finland 2019 and a doubles in Kazakhstan 2020.
Yatsyk/Karatsev were investigated by French police during French Open 2020 - l'equipe reported this on May 2nd 2022. We can confirm that. Nothing happened since
According to ZDF info Karatsev was allegedly also involved in a matchfix at the ATP tournament in Stuttgart 2022.
ITIA didnt comment on Karatsev/ Yatsyk when asked. Nor on the question why both arent suspended despite investigations in France. Only Karatsev's former girlfriend, Sofia Dmitrieva, has been banned for life for matchfixing. Karatsev gave us an interview but pushed back his quotes
According to Russian media, proceedings vs Basilashvilli are pending at ITIA. When asked by ZDF, his management said nothing had been heard from ITIA. According to ZDF, his first-rd doubles in Wimbledon 2021 with Moldovan Radu Albot was under investigation for matchfixing.
Basilashvillis doubles in Wimbledon 21 is about conspicuously high bets on the loss and amounts up to half a million US dollars. Several betting providers and people familiar with the matter confirmed this to ZDF.
We spoke to an easteuropean coach who is scared to talk publicly
"Yatsyk has been involved in fixing for years, works with people who have to do with fixing in Russia/Eastern Europe. He always has a lot of money with him, is on tour and is searching for young players who have problems. Financial/mental. Players he can convince with money"
The coach said: "Yatysk worked closely with Karatsev/Basilashvilli, watched them for years. Both incredibly talented players. But they had financial problems at beginning and major phases of weakness and slipped in the rankings. Each in a critical moment he approached them.”
The 8-minutes-tv-piece will be live @ZDF in TV and soon online under the link and in the Mediathek (in german)
The 8-minute-piece is now available in this article. Its in german
Tennis Wettbetrug: Zwei Topspieler und Trainer verwickelt
Laut ZDF sollen zwei aktuelle Top-50-Spieler im Tennis und ihr ehemaliger Trainer in Sportbetrug, sogenanntem Matchfixing, verwickelt sein. https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/sport/te ... t-100.html
Exclusive: after a long research @MarkusHarm and myself publish a TV piece for the @sportstudio reportage today about matchfixing
According to ZDF info top 50 players Basilashvilli and Karatsev + their former coach Yahor Yatsyk are allegedly involved in matchfixing
Thread 1/
Belarusian coach Yahor Yatsyk, who coached and traveled with both Basilashvilli and Karatsev, has offered players money to matchfix matches on at least two occasions in the past. This emerges from secret investigation docs from ITF
ZDF has data of five allegedly machtfixed matches with unusually high betting swings in which Karatsev is said to be involved. 2 fall in the period of cooperation with Yatysk (2018 until 2021) - a doubles in Finland 2019 and a doubles in Kazakhstan 2020.
Yatsyk/Karatsev were investigated by French police during French Open 2020 - l'equipe reported this on May 2nd 2022. We can confirm that. Nothing happened since
According to ZDF info Karatsev was allegedly also involved in a matchfix at the ATP tournament in Stuttgart 2022.
ITIA didnt comment on Karatsev/ Yatsyk when asked. Nor on the question why both arent suspended despite investigations in France. Only Karatsev's former girlfriend, Sofia Dmitrieva, has been banned for life for matchfixing. Karatsev gave us an interview but pushed back his quotes
According to Russian media, proceedings vs Basilashvilli are pending at ITIA. When asked by ZDF, his management said nothing had been heard from ITIA. According to ZDF, his first-rd doubles in Wimbledon 2021 with Moldovan Radu Albot was under investigation for matchfixing.
Basilashvillis doubles in Wimbledon 21 is about conspicuously high bets on the loss and amounts up to half a million US dollars. Several betting providers and people familiar with the matter confirmed this to ZDF.
We spoke to an easteuropean coach who is scared to talk publicly
"Yatsyk has been involved in fixing for years, works with people who have to do with fixing in Russia/Eastern Europe. He always has a lot of money with him, is on tour and is searching for young players who have problems. Financial/mental. Players he can convince with money"
The coach said: "Yatysk worked closely with Karatsev/Basilashvilli, watched them for years. Both incredibly talented players. But they had financial problems at beginning and major phases of weakness and slipped in the rankings. Each in a critical moment he approached them.”
The 8-minutes-tv-piece will be live @ZDF in TV and soon online under the link and in the Mediathek (in german)
The 8-minute-piece is now available in this article. Its in german
Tennis Wettbetrug: Zwei Topspieler und Trainer verwickelt
Laut ZDF sollen zwei aktuelle Top-50-Spieler im Tennis und ihr ehemaliger Trainer in Sportbetrug, sogenanntem Matchfixing, verwickelt sein. https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/sport/te ... t-100.html
If these allegations come to be true all three of them should be banned from any involvement with Tennis for life.
by ponchi101 That is the standard process. Involved in match-fixing: banned for life. It has been done with lower ranked players.
If Basilashvili and Karatsev have done this, it is basically the stupidest thing in tennis. You would have to be paid millions in order to offset the ban.
by Cuckoo4Coco Karatsev was ranked as high as #14 and Basilashvili as high as #16 so they are definitely not hurting for money. It is extremely stupid if they did something like this.
by ti-amieTennis star makes a grovelling apology after tagging Instagram post about NBA legend LeBron James with a GORILLA emoji
The Italian tennis star meant his post to be a tribute to his idol LeBron James
Instead, he included the image, which carries heavy racist connotations
He deleted the post as soon as the messages questioning it started to appear
Now he has apologised for his actions and says he made a genuine mistake
By JOSH ALSTON FOR DAILY MAIL AUSTRALIA
PUBLISHED: 03:32 EDT, 18 July 2022 | UPDATED: 03:47 EDT, 18 July 2022
A 'mortified' Matteo Berrettini has been forced to quickly delete a tribute to his idol LeBron James after the Italian professional tennis player included an image with highly racist connotations.
James had posted an image of him returning to the popular pro-am Drew League on Sunday, wearing the jersey for the first time since the 2011 NBA lockout.
He joined the MMV Cheaters squad that also includes Chicago Bulls star DeMar DeRozan, wasting no time with 42 points on debut.
'Thank you Drew League!! Loved the energy from start to finish! All for the city of angels,' he Tweeted after the game.
James also posted an image of him wearing the Drew League jersey with a series of steam-coming-from-the-nostrils emojis followed by a crown emoji.
Berrettini is a self-confessed huge fan of the Lakers icon and shared that image on his Instagram stories, adding his own emojis - only something got lost in translation.
He replaced the snorting emojis with an image of a gorilla followed by a crown in a tasteless post that was quickly taken down when scores of sports fans alerted the tennis player to the racist connotations of using the gorilla.
Berrettini then posted an apology saying he never intended to insult or offend anyone.
'I am very sorry if my previous story post offended anyone,' he posted.
'I was informed that it can easily be misinterpreted so I have deleted it.
'LeBron is my biggest idol. Incredible role model and inspiration.'
Many tennis fans agreed that Berrettini had done the right thing by removing the post and apologising.
'Comparing a strong and powerful man to a strong and powerful animal is not wrong in itself, it can be a compliment, just like a tiger or bull. BUT comparing an African man to an ape has too much connotations,' one fan posted on a popular tennis forum.
Others accepted he had made an honest mistake.
Obviously he wouldn't have meant it to be racist,' posted one fan.
'Berry is definitely not racist. Looks like the dude just made an honest mistake. It was probably a “King Kong” reference and he didn’t even think about actually comparing a race of people to apes. He’s probably mortified over it hence the apology,' posted another.
Others said he had nothing to apologise for.
'Don't see the issue. It's 2022, if we can't use freaking emojis of animals to reference people then maybe just get rid of them altogether?' one fan posted.
LeBron James has not commented on the now-deleted Instagram story.
ti-amie wrote: ↑Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:06 amTennis star makes a grovelling apology after tagging Instagram post about NBA legend LeBron James with a GORILLA emoji
The Italian tennis star meant his post to be a tribute to his idol LeBron James
Instead, he included the image, which carries heavy racist connotations
He deleted the post as soon as the messages questioning it started to appear
Now he has apologised for his actions and says he made a genuine mistake
By JOSH ALSTON FOR DAILY MAIL AUSTRALIA
PUBLISHED: 03:32 EDT, 18 July 2022 | UPDATED: 03:47 EDT, 18 July 2022
A 'mortified' Matteo Berrettini has been forced to quickly delete a tribute to his idol LeBron James after the Italian professional tennis player included an image with highly racist connotations.
James had posted an image of him returning to the popular pro-am Drew League on Sunday, wearing the jersey for the first time since the 2011 NBA lockout.
He joined the MMV Cheaters squad that also includes Chicago Bulls star DeMar DeRozan, wasting no time with 42 points on debut.
'Thank you Drew League!! Loved the energy from start to finish! All for the city of angels,' he Tweeted after the game.
James also posted an image of him wearing the Drew League jersey with a series of steam-coming-from-the-nostrils emojis followed by a crown emoji.
Berrettini is a self-confessed huge fan of the Lakers icon and shared that image on his Instagram stories, adding his own emojis - only something got lost in translation.
He replaced the snorting emojis with an image of a gorilla followed by a crown in a tasteless post that was quickly taken down when scores of sports fans alerted the tennis player to the racist connotations of using the gorilla.
Berrettini then posted an apology saying he never intended to insult or offend anyone.
'I am very sorry if my previous story post offended anyone,' he posted.
'I was informed that it can easily be misinterpreted so I have deleted it.
'LeBron is my biggest idol. Incredible role model and inspiration.'
Many tennis fans agreed that Berrettini had done the right thing by removing the post and apologising.
'Comparing a strong and powerful man to a strong and powerful animal is not wrong in itself, it can be a compliment, just like a tiger or bull. BUT comparing an African man to an ape has too much connotations,' one fan posted on a popular tennis forum.
Others accepted he had made an honest mistake.
Obviously he wouldn't have meant it to be racist,' posted one fan.
'Berry is definitely not racist. Looks like the dude just made an honest mistake. It was probably a “King Kong” reference and he didn’t even think about actually comparing a race of people to apes. He’s probably mortified over it hence the apology,' posted another.
Others said he had nothing to apologise for.
'Don't see the issue. It's 2022, if we can't use freaking emojis of animals to reference people then maybe just get rid of them altogether?' one fan posted.
LeBron James has not commented on the now-deleted Instagram story.
I do hope that Lebron James responds and says he accepts the apology and there he sees it as an honest mistake and it is no problem.
by meganfernandez
Cuckoo4Coco wrote:
ti-amie wrote: ↑Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:06 amTennis star makes a grovelling apology after tagging Instagram post about NBA legend LeBron James with a GORILLA emoji
The Italian tennis star meant his post to be a tribute to his idol LeBron James
Instead, he included the image, which carries heavy racist connotations
He deleted the post as soon as the messages questioning it started to appear
Now he has apologised for his actions and says he made a genuine mistake
By JOSH ALSTON FOR DAILY MAIL AUSTRALIA
PUBLISHED: 03:32 EDT, 18 July 2022 | UPDATED: 03:47 EDT, 18 July 2022
A 'mortified' Matteo Berrettini has been forced to quickly delete a tribute to his idol LeBron James after the Italian professional tennis player included an image with highly racist connotations.
James had posted an image of him returning to the popular pro-am Drew League on Sunday, wearing the jersey for the first time since the 2011 NBA lockout.
He joined the MMV Cheaters squad that also includes Chicago Bulls star DeMar DeRozan, wasting no time with 42 points on debut.
'Thank you Drew League!! Loved the energy from start to finish! All for the city of angels,' he Tweeted after the game.
James also posted an image of him wearing the Drew League jersey with a series of steam-coming-from-the-nostrils emojis followed by a crown emoji.
Berrettini is a self-confessed huge fan of the Lakers icon and shared that image on his Instagram stories, adding his own emojis - only something got lost in translation.
He replaced the snorting emojis with an image of a gorilla followed by a crown in a tasteless post that was quickly taken down when scores of sports fans alerted the tennis player to the racist connotations of using the gorilla.
Berrettini then posted an apology saying he never intended to insult or offend anyone.
'I am very sorry if my previous story post offended anyone,' he posted.
'I was informed that it can easily be misinterpreted so I have deleted it.
'LeBron is my biggest idol. Incredible role model and inspiration.'
Many tennis fans agreed that Berrettini had done the right thing by removing the post and apologising.
'Comparing a strong and powerful man to a strong and powerful animal is not wrong in itself, it can be a compliment, just like a tiger or bull. BUT comparing an African man to an ape has too much connotations,' one fan posted on a popular tennis forum.
Others accepted he had made an honest mistake.
Obviously he wouldn't have meant it to be racist,' posted one fan.
'Berry is definitely not racist. Looks like the dude just made an honest mistake. It was probably a “King Kong” reference and he didn’t even think about actually comparing a race of people to apes. He’s probably mortified over it hence the apology,' posted another.
Others said he had nothing to apologise for.
'Don't see the issue. It's 2022, if we can't use freaking emojis of animals to reference people then maybe just get rid of them altogether?' one fan posted.
LeBron James has not commented on the now-deleted Instagram story.
I do hope that Lebron James responds and says he accepts the apology and there he sees it as an honest mistake and it is no problem.
Please, let’s not cancel Matteo Berrettini! We need him for… lots of things.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
by mmmm8 Berrettini very likely made an "honest mistake" but the fact that the implications weren't top of mind for him says something about the lack of discourse around racism in his life.
by Cuckoo4Coco For someone who claims that Lebron James is an idol of his this has to be an honest mistake by Matteo.
by Suliso
mmmm8 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:06 pm
Berrettini very likely made an "honest mistake" but the fact that the implications weren't top of mind for him says something about the lack of discourse around racism in his life.
That's likely true, but why should it be considering where he lives?
mmmm8 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:06 pm
Berrettini very likely made an "honest mistake" but the fact that the implications weren't top of mind for him says something about the lack of discourse around racism in his life.
That's likely true, but why should it be considering where he lives?
Racism is not only about black people nor relevant where there is a high concentration of balck people.
I'm not going to start on Monaco, where he technically "lives." I believed the most valued color there is green.
by Cuckoo4Coco There are supposedly countries with less racism then others like the Netherlands, Sweden, New Zealand, Denmark, Finland, and Switzerland, but they still deal with it.
by ponchi101 Racism is not the exclusivity of any nation. And other nations express it in different forms. Look at what the Buddhist society in Myanmar has done to the Rohingya. Try to understand how the Chinese view the rest of the world (we are scum) or the Saudi's if you are not Saudi (you are scum).
In S. America, you have racism towards indigenous populations and, from personal experience, racism from the indigenous populations towards non-indigenous populations. It is one of the forms.
Racism is not the same everywhere. It is expressed in many forms. And things that are racist in one place are not racist in another.
by eusebius Ponchi, you are right on the money here. I’m a classical musician and in the opera world right now, anti-Black racism in Italy has taken centre stage. The famous (infamous?) soprano Anna Netrebko posted a picture of herself in blackface singing the role of Aïda at the Arena di Verona: https://slippedisc.com/2022/07/singers- ... face-aida/
The American soprano Angel Blue, slated to sing Violetta in La Traviata in Verona this summer, withdrew in protest. The company defended its use of blackface on “historical” and “philological” grounds.
Clearly there is a lot of work to be done worldwide.
by ti-amieDutch coach Max Wenders banned 12 years for match-fixing charges (updated)
Wenders with former student Demi Schuurs (right) and her former doubles partner Elise Mertens (centre)
Max Wenders, a 26-year-old Dutchman who has worked with several players on the WTA Tour, has been banned for 12 years from professional tennis after pleading guilty to a number of match-fixing charges.
The International Tennis Integrity Agency states in its announcement that Wenders “admitting multiple match fixing charges (and) destroying evidence requested by the ITIA (then the Tennis Integrity Unit) and failing to report a corrupt approach.”
When asked for comment from Open Court, Wenders issued this via email:
“As has been published by the ITIA, today, on 28 April 2021, a decision was rendered against me by an Anti-Corruption Hearing Officer, in respect to breaches of the Tennis Anti-Corruption Programme.
I am extremely disappointed by the decision. I note, further, that the ITIA’s statement on it contains a number of inaccuracies, which I have asked it to correct.
Whilst I am unable to comment any further at this time, due to the ongoing nature of this matter, I wish to make clear, in particular, that I have not been sanctioned for fixing any matches and that the decision relates to events which took place between late 2018 and 2019.”
Most often, the people banned or suspended for match-fixing are relatively obscure players, and sometimes umpires. Coaches are more rare.
Wenders has been a hitting partner for Jelena Ostapenko, briefly worked with Anett Kontaveit and – most notably – coached doubles specialist Demi Schuurs.
Also notably, he is the former boyfriend of former world No. 4 Sofia Kenin.
Wenders also worked with Russian Anastasiya Komardina, whose career high was No. 89 in doubles back in June, 2018, but who has played just two matches since Oct. 2020.
12 years and $12,000
There had been a few rumblings around the women’s tour more than two years ago that Wenders might be involved in something like this. But it takes time for it all to get through the system.
The hearing for the case was a long time ago – in April 2021.
“Publication of the sanction was delayed following submissions from Mr Wenders’ legal team, however AHO McLaren has now lifted that prohibition,” was the explanation in the press release.
Comprehensive list of breaches for Wenders
Section D1.d of the 2019 TACP: No Covered Person shall, directly or indirectly, contrive, attempt to contrive, agree to contrive, or conspire to contrive the outcome, or any other aspect, of any Event.”
And then, Section D.1.e of the 2018 TACP: “No Covered Person shall, directly or indirectly, facilitate any Player to not use his or her best efforts in any Event.”
Section D.2.b.ii of the 2019 TACP: “In the event any Player is approached by any person who offers or provides any type of money, benefit or Consideration to a Player to (i) influence the outcome or any other aspect of any Event, or (ii) provide Inside Information, it shall be the Player’s obligation to report such incident to the TIU as soon as possible.”Section F.2.b of the 2019 TACP: “All Covered Persons must cooperate fully with investigations conducted by the TIU including giving evidence at hearings, if requested.
After a Covered Person receives a TIU request for an initial interview or otherwise becomes aware of any TIU investigation involving the Covered Person, the Covered Person shall (i) preserve and not tamper with, damage, disable, destroy or otherwise alter any evidence (including any personal devices described in Section F.2.c.i.) or other information related to any Corruption Offense and (ii) not solicit, facilitate or advise any other person to fail to preserve, tamper with, damage, disable, destroy or otherwise alter any evidence or other information related to any Corruption Offense.”
Short career, long on drama
Kenin made the couple’s relationship public a year ago on Wenders’ 26th birthday (below), in the midst of all the domestic drama surrounding her split with father/coach Alex.
Despite some of the social-media and clickbait site chatter out there, he was never her coach.
But they had been an on-and-off couple for years before that, even before Kenin won the Australian Open back in 2020. And we’re told it was … pretty fraught.
At one point, Wenders had been placed on the WTA’s “do-not-credential” list, which made it very difficult for him to earn a living.
by ponchi101 Basically, career over. Can't see such a person coming back to the tour.
by Cuckoo4Coco I sorry, he must have talent as a coach/hitting partner, but he also must be dumb as a pile of bricks to do something as stupid as this. He ruined his entire career and what a sweet career he had going for him.
Did anyone ever say what the cause of the explosion was from?
by ponchi101 Let's hope it was a kitchen. Please.
by Cuckoo4Coco
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:49 pm
Let's hope it was a kitchen. Please.
I hope so.
by ti-amie
I wasn't sure where to put this so it's okay to move it if it shouldn't be here.
He's still in Manacor.
by ponchi101 No, that is the new ON/OFF/Charger plug.
by Deuce In the latest edition of 'Constraints and Restrictions in the Land of the NOT VERY FREE', we have this idiocy from the 'Citi Open' in Washington.
This ridiculousness is creeping its way up here, too... I used to be able to go to pro tennis tournaments with my rather large tennis bag, which contained at least one racquet, shoes, etc. - and my friends and I would get on any free court we saw and hit - and it was no problem. But today, you can't enter the tournament site with a racquet (but you can purchase a racquet at the tournament site!), your bag must be no larger than a certain size, your camera can't be 'too large'... and there was even one year a few years ago when they wouldn't let me in to the tournament site with my double-walled water bottle. When I asked why, they said "Because you can throw it at a player." INSANE! I replied "Well, then, I should leave you my shoes, as well, then, because I could throw them at a player, too! And what about my hands - I could make a fist and hit a player! You should amputate my hands immediately!"
Fortunately, the following year, that idiotic water bottle policy was removed - but, because they must maintain a level of idiocy, you weren't allowed to enter with water in your water bottle! You had to dump the water out on the ground before entry! I told them they can SMELL my water bottle if they are afraid that it's vodka or something - and that will prove it's water. But no - they 'weren't allowed' to smell it.
One other ridiculous thing is no sunblock in a spray - "Because it could explode".
I'm telling you - these people have to be taking courses on idiocy!!
And now, no backpacks in Washington (see image below). It wasn't enough that they checked everyone's backpack - now they have just eliminated backpacks altogether - in the name of safety! I'm sure that a person could challenge this constitutionally, as backpacks are obviously not illegal to have in public.
I have told the overzealous people at tournaments that if they truly want everyone to be safe, maybe all fans should have to be completely naked, and carrying nothing. Or they should simply not allow any fans in at all. If everyone locks themselves in their bathroom at home and never comes out, the world would surely be a 'safe place'!
On top of that, to get a ticket to a tournament these days, you need to do it online, while giving all sorts of personal information (name, E mail address, cell phone number, etc.). We used to be able to buy tickets anonymously, of course. But now, Big Brother is everywhere, asking for your personal information - and we have no control over what they do with that personal information, or who they give it to, etc.
I've been going to pro tournaments for over 40 years, and I say unequivocally that it's much, much less enjoyable now than it was 30, 40 years ago - because of the idiotic rules and restrictions they've increasingly put in place, and the insistence on gathering our personal info, as well as the fact that the players have been more and more secluded from fans behind 'security personnel', etc. Hell, a friend and I had a face to face 10 minute conversation with Jimmy Connors at a tournament when he was top 5 in the world. No way that is 'allowed' to happen today.
I feel sorry for the kids today - all they can hope for from their favourite players is a quick scribble on a piece of paper or a hat, or a quick photo.
by Cuckoo4Coco Honestly, the only one that is on the prohibited list that I would see as ridiculous to bring is a laptop. Unless you are some sort of reporter, why would you need that? The rest of the stuff, especially with the heat a hydration pack would be really nice to have. I guess they want you to purchase a $15 water bottle at the place though.
by ponchi101
Cuckoo4Coco wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:18 pm
Honestly, the only one that is on the prohibited list that I would see as ridiculous to bring is a laptop. Unless you are some sort of reporter, why would you need that? The rest of the stuff, especially with the heat a hydration pack would be really nice to have. I guess they want you to purchase a $15 water bottle at the place though.
You have a job, you may want to connect to the web in case you need to do some issues that are work related, but you also want to go see some tennis.
A lot of people are still working remotely. Somebody may want to come to the tournament and in between matches get some work done.
But we all know of those devilish Al-Qaeda bomb laptops, right?
Cuckoo4Coco wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:18 pm
Honestly, the only one that is on the prohibited list that I would see as ridiculous to bring is a laptop. Unless you are some sort of reporter, why would you need that? The rest of the stuff, especially with the heat a hydration pack would be really nice to have. I guess they want you to purchase a $15 water bottle at the place though.
You have a job, you may want to connect to the web in case you need to do some issues that are work related, but you also want to go see some tennis.
A lot of people are still working remotely. Somebody may want to come to the tournament and in between matches get some work done.
But we all know of those devilish Al-Qaeda bomb laptops, right?
I guess if you are a reporter or something they would allow a laptop, but only in certain areas. For regular people, if they wanted to get information their phones have all of that. As for working, I don't know if you have to work than work at home or wherever. I come to a tennis match to watch the tennis match and even though I don't have a job, I want to watch the match.
by ponchi101 Scenario.
You bought your tickets for the DC tournament, a few months ago. Your a**hole boss assigns you a project last week, due on Friday. You don't want to let that ticket go to waste, but... it's your boss and your job
So you decide to multitask (which usually ends up in multi-crap, as you do a lousy job and really can't watch the match properly).
You have still not enjoyed the pleasures of a 9 to 5. Or, an 8 to whenever.
by atlpam When we went to the Charleston Open, we went to the shop the first day to buy a “clear tote” to use the next day but they don’t even sell them. We could only bring in an unopened water bottle (1 each). Don’t screw up and open it for a sip on the shuttle from the parking lot. I guess women are supposed to advertise their period by carrying feminine products in their clear tote since the wallet size purse sure won’t accommodate that.
I guess I should qualify that as people who menstruate.
by Cuckoo4Coco Is this rules of the ATP & WTA or is this just a Citi Open rule?
by atlpam
Cuckoo4Coco wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 5:46 pm
Is this rules of the ATP & WTA or is this just a Citi Open rule?
This applies to many event venues - not just sporting events.
Cuckoo4Coco wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 5:46 pm
Is this rules of the ATP & WTA or is this just a Citi Open rule?
This applies to many event venues - not just sporting events.
I understand the safety aspect of things, but I think they should allow the backpacks and stuff like that. Just have them checked before people come in.
by dryrunguy Serious question: Are these restrictions unique to the U.S.? That's an important question to ask because we have people who like to whip out a pistol and start shooting other drivers for not using a turn signal. Some of these folks go to tennis matches as well. I'm pretty sure Halle and Umag don't have to worry about such things.
That said, of course some of these restrictions are as simple as trying to force attendees to buy lots of stuff at a 500% markup.
by ponchi101 Nothing like that in Colombia. And it is not as if that country does not know about gun violence (60+ years of guerrillas).
Nor here in Vennieland.
by Cuckoo4Coco
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:07 pm
Nothing like that in Colombia. And it is not as if that country does not know about gun violence (60+ years of guerrillas).
Nor here in Vennieland.
We don't have Gorillas shooting guns, just people causing all the trouble here in America.
by ti-amieYou CGM, Right, Bro?
Once reserved for diabetics, continuous glucose monitoring is the hot new biohacking tool. Levels and SuperSapiens are harnessing the tech to help you supercharge athletic performance, boost energy, squash bad moods, and lose fat.
BY BILL GIFFORD PUBLISHED: MAR 1, 2021
MARY CAROLINE RUSSELL
I’ve got a needle in my arm, and I’m craving chocolate cake.
The cake in question is my mom’s, flourless and rich, on a plate she’s just handed me at brunch. The needle—more like a filament, actually—is attached to a sensor called a continuous glucose monitor, or CGM, which measures my blood-glucose level in real time.
I know two things: One, this cake is delicious. Two, it will probably jack my glucose reading sky-high, which has all sorts of possible unwanted consequences, ranging from me falling asleep on the couch in an hour to, over the long term, premature cardiovascular disease. But I’ve already had pancakes with syrup and a bagel with smoked salmon this morning, so what the hell. I eat the cake and cut a second slice.
A little later, I check an app called Levels, which receives data from my CGM and puts it through a proprietary algorithm to gauge my metabolic health—one aspect of this being how quickly and efficiently my body processes sugar and other carbohydrates. Every meal is assigned a score based on how much my glucose rises and how long it stays high. On the app’s ten-point scale, Mom’s carb-blowout brunch rates a zero. Not good.
It’s my first week of beta testing Levels’ CGM-based metabolic-health program, and so far it’s been, uh, interesting. A CGM is normally available by prescription to people who have been diagnosed with either type 1 or type 2 diabetes. These patients rely on CGM readings to gauge when they need to inject insulin (the hormone that helps bring glucose levels down when they’re too high) and when they need to eat to prevent hypoglycemia (low blood sugar), a potentially life-threatening situation.
Levels and a few other start-ups have begun to make CGMs available to non-diabetics like me who are interested in understanding how our metabolism responds to what we eat and how that in turn affects our sleep, energy level, sex life, and athletic performance. The idea is that by keeping on top of our blood-glucose level, we might change our behavior, improve our quality of life, and lower our risk of chronic disease.
I test-drove two of the new apps: Levels, which is oriented toward diet and optimizing metabolism, and Supersapiens, which is aimed at athletes. After at least a month of using both, it’s safe to say that brunch has been all but ruined for me. But I have a new appreciation for the importance of controlling my glucose level—and how much better it makes me feel, both when exercising and in my life in general.
Levels was founded by a former SpaceX engineer named Josh Clemente, who found himself, at the ripe old age of 28, hitting a wall. Many afternoons, his energy level would crater, often dragging his mood down, too. (Sound familiar?) The part-time CrossFit trainer looked fit, but inside, he says, “I felt like I had some sort of fatal illness.” He bought a glucose meter and began pricking his finger and testing his blood multiple times per day, keeping a spreadsheet of the results. He then got a prescription CGM from a doctor friend, and he was astonished by what it revealed. “It basically told me I fit the criteria for prediabetes,” he says.
Nearly 30 million Americans have been diagnosed with type 2 diabetes, defined as the body’s inability to manage blood-sugar levels. But another 88 million have prediabetes, meaning they have higher-than-normal blood sugar—and the vast majority are not aware of it. More alarming, a 2019 study from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill estimated that only 12 percent of American adults are metabolically healthy, defined as having optimal (without medication) triglycerides, HDL cholesterol, blood pressure, blood glucose, and waist circumference.
I was sort of in the same boat. My last fasting glucose test, a few weeks before I tried a CGM, had come out a reassuring 87 mg/dL. (At or below 99 mg/dL is considered to be ideal; 100 and above is cause for concern.) I’m good, I thought. A few weeks later, my Levels kit arrived, containing an Abbott FreeStyle Libre CGM that had been prescribed by a Levels doctor via telemedicine. I applied the half-dollar-sized disc to my upper arm, inserting a filament painlessly into my skin. The sensor took minute-by-minute readings, storing the data on my phone. Watching my glucose level rise and fall through the day told a different, and more alarming, story than the static reading at my doctor’s office.
The Levels app took my CGM data, coupled with my entries for meals and exercise and other notes, and computed a daily metabolic score, expressed as a percentage. This score was based on my average glucose level each day, the number and steepness of post-meal spikes, and the amount of time I spent outside the Levels-defined optimal glucose range of 70 to 110 mg/dL. (Higher blood-glucose levels can cause cellular and vascular damage; very low levels can lead to feelings of fatigue and brain fog.)
Most days, the Levels app scored my metabolic performance in the high 50s, which I assumed was pretty good until I talked to Casey Means, M.D., a Levels cofounder and its chief medical officer. “Well,” she said diplomatically, “the lowest it goes is 50, so there’s that.” Oh.
The Levels app seemed rather judgy, to be honest, but with good reason. High levels of blood glucose—and the surges of insulin that the pancreas secretes to try to dispose of all that energy (or store it as fat)—are strongly correlated with chronic disease, says Peter Attia, M.D., a physician whose practice focuses on longevity. High glucose can damage blood vessels and arteries, leading to kidney disease, erectile dysfunction, blindness, and even dementia. High levels of insulin are strongly linked to obesity, and the hormone has anabolic effects that could fuel certain cancers. “It’s almost assuredly why obesity is the second-largest modifiable risk factor in cancer, after smoking,” Dr. Attia says.
The basic theory behind Levels is that by lowering our average glucose level, and especially the spikes after eating, we can reproduce and thus lower our risk of chronic disease—as well as feel better day-to-day. “Improving glucose is low-hanging fruit for improving health and well-being,” says Dr. Means. “It is the foundational unit of energy in the body. And it
is out of whack, at scale, in our country.”
In practice, weaning myself from my carb habit proved to be difficult. Many of my go-to meals—whole-milk yogurt with granola and fruit for breakfast, a burrito or an Italian sandwich for lunch, pasta or risotto for dinner—jacked up my glucose level, resulting in electronic disapproval from my phone. And certain foods triggered extreme reactions: A few bites of our kid’s pancakes got my blood glucose to 180, and a “healthy” lunch of vegetarian tacos set my all-time record of 208.
On the other hand, my CGM seemed to be okay with things like eggs and bacon in the morning, steak or grilled salmon at dinner, salads and leafy vegetables, nuts instead of chips at snack time, and pretty much anything involving avocados. I began making some modest changes to my diet and generally eating smaller portions. Levels prompts users to photograph their meals with each log entry, and that made me pay more attention to what I ate. My daily score gradually crept upward, into the 60s, 70s, even high 80s. I’ve always loved carbs and have never been a fan of any kind of labeled diet, but my CGM was carb-shaming me into eating more reasonably.
“CGM becomes a tool to change behavior,” says Dominic D’Agostino, Ph.D., an associate professor at the University of South Florida, who has experimented with different diets and foods while beta testing Levels. “I considered myself hyperaware of what food does to the body, but CGM takes that to another level. And it’s actionable.”
He adds, “I think CGM could be a powerful tool to get people’s metabolic health under control, before it becomes a problem.” It wasn’t just my own behavior that changed: My partner had initially made fun of the glucose sensor implanted in my arm and my constant checking of the Levels app. “How’s your glucose today?” she’d tease. But then one day she came home from Trader Joe’s with a bag of frozen low-carb cauliflower gnocchi. We cooked them up that night with some lamb ragù, and they were delicious—and we didn’t end up with that carb-bloated feeling we get from pasta. Even Levels approved.
At the same time, I was using another, very different CGM-based platform, Supersapiens, looking for insights into the link between glucose and athletic performance. Cofounded by Phil Southerland, a former professional cyclist and a diabetic, Supersapiens is meant to teach elite and recreational athletes what Southerland learned the hard way about the importance of managing his glucose level as an athlete.
As a young cyclist with type 1 diabetes, meaning his pancreas produces little to no insulin, Southerland saw that on days when his blood sugar was low, he would race poorly, while a more stable glucose level often translated into better performance. But there was no way to keep track of how his glucose changed during an event. When he began using a CGM about a decade ago, he saw how important tracking levels while active could be.
“My knowledge of everything that happened in my body—food, insulin, nutrition, sleep—increased exponentially in those first 20 days of using continuous glucose monitoring,” he says. His fellow athletes on Team Novo Nordisk, which he founded, began using CGM to help with their training and racing, and their results improved. “It was a phenomenal tool,” he says.
by ponchi101 I am sorry you have to go through all that, but thanks for the explanation. Amazing tech. I hope it will be useful to you.
by ti-amie Rafa is using one and Wawrinka was wearing one today. I wouldn't be surprised if Zverev is wearing one when he returns to the tour.
by ponchi101 I was joking about Rafa's. I said it was his ON/OFF/Charge port
by Fastbackss
dryrunguy wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:57 pm
Serious question: Are these restrictions unique to the U.S.? That's an important question to ask because we have people who like to whip out a pistol and start shooting other drivers for not using a turn signal. Some of these folks go to tennis matches as well. I'm pretty sure Halle and Umag don't have to worry about such things.
That said, of course some of these restrictions are as simple as trying to force attendees to buy lots of stuff at a 500% markup.
Virtually every major League sporting event in the US (I know your question was about abroad) uses some form of the same entering criteria.
The last 4 or 5 events I have been to included watching female attendees scramble to return to their car as they were not able to enter with their purse. I always try to remember to tell those going with me.
As for the backpack thing, yeah, given some events that have occurred in the US it (sadly) makes sense for events where crowds gather.
dryrunguy wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:57 pm
Serious question: Are these restrictions unique to the U.S.? That's an important question to ask because we have people who like to whip out a pistol and start shooting other drivers for not using a turn signal. Some of these folks go to tennis matches as well. I'm pretty sure Halle and Umag don't have to worry about such things.
That said, of course some of these restrictions are as simple as trying to force attendees to buy lots of stuff at a 500% markup.
Virtually every major League sporting event in the US (I know your question was about abroad) uses some form of the same entering criteria.
The last 4 or 5 events I have been to included watching female attendees scramble to return to their car as they were not able to enter with their purse. I always try to remember to tell those going with me.
As for the backpack thing, yeah, given some events that have occurred in the US it (sadly) makes sense for events where crowds gather.
'Land of the free', huh?
Not quite.
For the record, I'm completely against these types of overzealous restrictions. I find them absolutely ridiculous. And it reduces the enjoyment of the activity.
As I said previously - if one lives his/her life in constant fear, that is not living. Allow for fear in certain circumstances, ok... but not everywhere.
But, hey, it's also about 'public relations'. With these ridiculous restrictions, they can fool some people into believing that they are doing this 'for everyone's safety'.
Yeah - sure... just like America is 'the land of the free'.
They wouldn't lie to us, would they?
by ti-amie Sigh. Morgane Lara must be new.
Ben Rothenberg
@BenRothenberg
After briefly considering cutting her flag down to a regulation size, Lola was escorted by the security official to the parking lot, where he had told her she could store this offending Ukrainian flag in her car.
She was then allowed to return to the tournament grounds.
Asked for comment, the #CincyTennis simply pointed to the rule about flag size.
The WTA, whose chair umpire (and player) precipitated this incident, have not replied to a request for comment for nearly 24 hours now.
Tennis has not been consistent in how it has handled issues regarding the Russian invasion of Ukraine, as we know, both in terms of policies and in symbolic displays of support.
But this incident, I believe, is a clear misstep.
(12/12)
by AcesAnnie
ti-amie wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:21 pm
Sigh. No idea who the chair is.
Ben Rothenberg
@BenRothenberg
After briefly considering cutting her flag down to a regulation size, Lola was escorted by the security official to the parking lot, where he had told her she could store this offending Ukrainian flag in her car.
She was then allowed to return to the tournament grounds.
Asked for comment, the #CincyTennis simply pointed to the rule about flag size.
The WTA, whose chair umpire (and player) precipitated this incident, have not replied to a request for comment for nearly 24 hours now.
Tennis has not been consistent in how it has handled issues regarding the Russian invasion of Ukraine, as we know, both in terms of policies and in symbolic displays of support.
But this incident, I believe, is a clear misstep.
(12/12)
First off, this if it is an actual rule is ridiculous. There have been countless times I have seen Countries Flags draped around fans. If this is a rule, it must be exclusive to Cincinnati. Second, the player that brought up an issue with the fan who apparently was sitting quietly in the stands watching the match and just supporting her favorite player and the country she is from should be ashamed of herself for even bringing up the matter. I imagine this was Anastasia Potapova. This is something that needs to be address and quickly, because if this would have been any other countries flag or any other player, the issue would not have arisen.
by ponchi101 Time to edit the rules-book?
This, the warning given to Ruud for taking a bathroom break but not actually using the loo. Some really dumb situations, lately.
by AcesAnnie
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:44 pm
Time to edit the rules-book?
This, the warning given to Ruud for taking a bathroom break but not actually using the loo. Some really dumb situations, lately.
My question about the whole bathroom craziness, do they actually have attendants watching to see if the players actually use the toilet?
by skatingfan
AcesAnnie wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:48 pm
My question about the whole bathroom craziness, do they actually have attendants watching to see if the players actually use the toilet?
AcesAnnie wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:48 pm
My question about the whole bathroom craziness, do they actually have attendants watching to see if the players actually use the toilet?
Yes
That is insanity and invasion of privacy.
by skatingfan
AcesAnnie wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:18 am
That is insanity and invasion of privacy.
It's about enforcing the rules to ensure that the player doesn't do anything off court that they are not supposed to like receive a massage, take a shower, or in the past receive coaching.
AcesAnnie wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:18 am
That is insanity and invasion of privacy.
It's about enforcing the rules to ensure that the player doesn't do anything off court that they are not supposed to like receive a massage, take a shower, or in the past receive coaching.
I fully understand that, but having a player walk with an attendant to a bathroom, and having them stand outside that bathroom to make sure no one else enters is one thing. Being in the bathroom to see if they actually use the toilet is another thing.
Do they only on these time out use the huge locker rooms or do they have a smaller bathroom just adjacent to the court? I would think it would be much more convenient and to meet these time limits to have a small bathroom right outside the court where only the players could use them. Have the attendants stand outside the door, making sure no one else enters.
by skatingfan
AcesAnnie wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:59 am
I fully understand that, but having a player walk with an attendant to a bathroom, and having them stand outside that bathroom to make sure no one else enters is one thing. Being in the bathroom to see if they actually use the toilet is another thing.
I guess it depends on the layout of the locker room. The attendant has to have the player in sight the whole time.
AcesAnnie wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:59 am
Do they only on these time out use the huge locker rooms or do they have a smaller bathroom just adjacent to the court? I would think it would be much more convenient and to meet these time limits to have a small bathroom right outside the court where only the players could use them. Have the attendants stand outside the door, making sure no one else enters.
Depends on the layout of the tournament grounds, and what court they're playing on. I've seen players use the port-a-potty intended for the public when that was the closest bathroom.
AcesAnnie wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:59 am
I fully understand that, but having a player walk with an attendant to a bathroom, and having them stand outside that bathroom to make sure no one else enters is one thing. Being in the bathroom to see if they actually use the toilet is another thing.
I guess it depends on the layout of the locker room. The attendant has to have the player in sight the whole time.
AcesAnnie wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:59 am
Do they only on these time out use the huge locker rooms or do they have a smaller bathroom just adjacent to the court? I would think it would be much more convenient and to meet these time limits to have a small bathroom right outside the court where only the players could use them. Have the attendants stand outside the door, making sure no one else enters.
Depends on the layout of the tournament grounds, and what court they're playing on. I've seen players use the port-a-potty intended for the public when that was the closest bathroom.
I know for damn sure if I was a tour player, there would be no attendant in eye sight of me if I was sitting on the toilet.
by ponchi101 This conversation is so headed for the dumpster...
by AcesAnnie
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 2:45 am
This conversation is so headed for the dumpster...
AcesAnnie wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:59 am
I fully understand that, but having a player walk with an attendant to a bathroom, and having them stand outside that bathroom to make sure no one else enters is one thing. Being in the bathroom to see if they actually use the toilet is another thing.
I guess it depends on the layout of the locker room. The attendant has to have the player in sight the whole time.
AcesAnnie wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:59 am
Do they only on these time out use the huge locker rooms or do they have a smaller bathroom just adjacent to the court? I would think it would be much more convenient and to meet these time limits to have a small bathroom right outside the court where only the players could use them. Have the attendants stand outside the door, making sure no one else enters.
Depends on the layout of the tournament grounds, and what court they're playing on. I've seen players use the port-a-potty intended for the public when that was the closest bathroom.
The person escorting the player to the bathroom does not have to always have the player within their sight. For example, if they go into a bathroom stall with a door, the escort will not go in there with the player. But they WILL listen for the sound of the urine stream hitting the water in the toilet.
Similarly, if the player uses a portable toilet intended for fans, they will not necessarily enter in with the player - it's a judgement call. A friend of mine escorted Dan Evans to one of these banks of portable toilets last week, and did not enter in with Evans.
Of course, whenever possible, the escort will be the same gender as the player.
And, yes, the rule states that they must urinate or defecate when they take a bathroom break. The way it's been explained to me by my friends doing that job, the male players must urinate or defecate on a bathroom break, but female players are permitted to only change their clothes, without depositing anything into the toilet.
This seems unjust, as what is a male player supposed to do if he wants to put on a new pair of shorts? He's not allowed to change into them on-court, and if he goes off court to change his shorts, he must urinate or defecate. That rule needs to be changed to make it consistent with what the female players are permitted to do.
by meganfernandez
AcesAnnie wrote:
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:44 pm
Time to edit the rules-book?
This, the warning given to Ruud for taking a bathroom break but not actually using the loo. Some really dumb situations, lately.
My question about the whole bathroom craziness, do they actually have attendants watching to see if the players actually use the toilet?
I heard that if they go into a stall, it counts as “going to the bathroom.” No one is checking the bowl. Ruud must not have entered a stall.
AcesAnnie wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:59 am
I fully understand that, but having a player walk with an attendant to a bathroom, and having them stand outside that bathroom to make sure no one else enters is one thing. Being in the bathroom to see if they actually use the toilet is another thing.
I guess it depends on the layout of the locker room. The attendant has to have the player in sight the whole time.
AcesAnnie wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:59 am
Do they only on these time out use the huge locker rooms or do they have a smaller bathroom just adjacent to the court? I would think it would be much more convenient and to meet these time limits to have a small bathroom right outside the court where only the players could use them. Have the attendants stand outside the door, making sure no one else enters.
Depends on the layout of the tournament grounds, and what court they're playing on. I've seen players use the port-a-potty intended for the public when that was the closest bathroom.
The person escorting the player to the bathroom does not have to always have the player within their sight. For example, if they go into a bathroom stall with a door, the escort will not go in there with the player. But they WILL listen for the sound of the urine stream hitting the water in the toilet.
Similarly, if the player uses a portable toilet intended for fans, they will not necessarily enter in with the player - it's a judgement call. A friend of mine escorted Dan Evans to one of these banks of portable toilets last week, and did not enter in with Evans.
Of course, whenever possible, the escort will be the same gender as the player.
And, yes, the rule states that they must urinate or defecate when they take a bathroom break. The way it's been explained to me by my friends doing that job, the male players must urinate or defecate on a bathroom break, but female players are permitted to only change their clothes, without depositing anything into the toilet.
This seems unjust, as what is a male player supposed to do if he wants to put on a new pair of shorts? He's not allowed to change into them on-court, and if he goes off court to change his shorts, he must urinate or defecate. That rule needs to be changed to make it consistent with what the female players are permitted to do.
I agree the rules are too strict and should be changed. The men should be allowed to change their shorts without using the toilet. Have you seen some of them sweat? Also the fact, and I think a player would be pretty desperate if they were attempting to get extra coaching or a massage in a bathroom stall or port-a-potty on a timeout break.
by Deuce
ti-amie wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:21 pm
Sigh. Morgane Lara must be new.
.....................
Ben Rothenberg
@BenRothenberg
After briefly considering cutting her flag down to a regulation size, Lola was escorted by the security official to the parking lot, where he had told her she could store this offending Ukrainian flag in her car.
She was then allowed to return to the tournament grounds.
Asked for comment, the #CincyTennis simply pointed to the rule about flag size.
The WTA, whose chair umpire (and player) precipitated this incident, have not replied to a request for comment for nearly 24 hours now.
Tennis has not been consistent in how it has handled issues regarding the Russian invasion of Ukraine, as we know, both in terms of policies and in symbolic displays of support.
But this incident, I believe, is a clear misstep.
(12/12)
^ This is far more than a mere 'misstep'. It is absolutely disgusting.
Both Kalinskaya and Potapova are Russian, and so it could have been either one of them - or both - who complained.
But the only proper response to such a complaint would be "Too bad," with absolutely no action taken with Lola.
Again - this is the way the world is going, and it's very, very sad - and extremely unhealthy. People complain about anything and everything that they disagree with, and want the action or the person that they disagree with silenced. These are often the same people who preach 'tolerance' and 'non-judgmentalism', of course.
Whoever complains first and/or loudest 'wins' - and that's so, so incredibly wrong.
It's at a point now where anyone complaining that they are 'offended' or 'uncomfortable' with someone else's opinion or perspective or values or beliefs does so purely to stifle the person or action that they disagree with so that they can then be 'comfortable'.
As if anyone has a right to be 'comfortable' with everything 24 hours per day!
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:44 pm
Time to edit the rules-book?
This, the warning given to Ruud for taking a bathroom break but not actually using the loo. Some really dumb situations, lately.
My question about the whole bathroom craziness, do they actually have attendants watching to see if the players actually use the toilet?
I heard that if they go into a stall, it counts as “going to the bathroom.” No one is checking the bowl. Ruud must not have entered a stall.
That makes more sense. I guess the next time he will specify to the chair umpire whether he is going to use the facilities or just change his shorts.
by Deuce
AcesAnnie wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:28 am
I agree the rules are too strict and should be changed. The men should be allowed to change their shorts without using the toilet. Have you seen some of them sweat?
^ Sweating isn't the only problem that would require a change of shorts...
ti-amie wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:21 pm
Sigh. Morgane Lara must be new.
.....................
Ben Rothenberg
@BenRothenberg
After briefly considering cutting her flag down to a regulation size, Lola was escorted by the security official to the parking lot, where he had told her she could store this offending Ukrainian flag in her car.
She was then allowed to return to the tournament grounds.
Asked for comment, the #CincyTennis simply pointed to the rule about flag size.
The WTA, whose chair umpire (and player) precipitated this incident, have not replied to a request for comment for nearly 24 hours now.
Tennis has not been consistent in how it has handled issues regarding the Russian invasion of Ukraine, as we know, both in terms of policies and in symbolic displays of support.
But this incident, I believe, is a clear misstep.
(12/12)
^ This is far more than a mere 'misstep'. It is absolutely disgusting.
Both Kalinskaya and Putinseva are Russian, and so it could have been either one of them - or both - who complained.
But the only proper response to such a complaint would be "Too bad," with absolutely no action taken with Lola.
Again - this is the way the world is going, and it's very, very sad - and extremely unhealthy. People complain about anything and everything that they disagree with, and want the action or the person that they disagree with silenced. These are often the same people who preach 'tolerance' and 'non-judgmentalism', of course.
Whoever complains first and/or loudest 'wins' - and that's so, so incredibly wrong.
It's at a point now where anyone complaining that they are 'offended' or 'uncomfortable' with someone else's opinion or perspective or values or beliefs does so purely to stifle the person or action that they disagree with so that they can then be 'comfortable'.
As if anyone has a right to be 'comfortable' with everything 24 hours per day!
It's very, very sad...
The players in the match were Kalinskaya and Potapova who are both Russian. One of them had to have had a problem with it. I could have easily understood, if the fan was making comments that she should have been removed, but she was just sitting there watching the match. The two players are there for one reason and that is to play a tennis match and not worry about what is going on and the sights in the stands.
AcesAnnie wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:28 am
I agree the rules are too strict and should be changed. The men should be allowed to change their shorts without using the toilet. Have you seen some of them sweat?
^ Sweating isn't the only problem that would require a change of shorts...
.
Now that is a serious problem. That is almost borderline retiring from the match seriousness right there.
AcesAnnie wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:28 am
I agree the rules are too strict and should be changed. The men should be allowed to change their shorts without using the toilet. Have you seen some of them sweat?
^ Sweating isn't the only problem that would require a change of shorts...
.
Now that is a serious problem. That is almost borderline retiring from the match seriousness right there.
If a player wearing those shorts asks to go off court to change them, and doesn't urinate or defecate while off court, the chair umpire, in giving him a code violation warning, would say "You should have waited a little longer to defecate. By doing it in your shorts, you painted yourself into a corner - you had to go and change your shorts, but you had nothing remaining to deposit into the toilet!"
by ponchi101
AcesAnnie wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:38 am
...
The players in the match were Kalinskaya and Potapova who are both Russian. One of them had to have had a problem with it. I could have easily understood, if the fan was making comments that she should have been removed, but she was just sitting there watching the match. The two players are there for one reason and that is to play a tennis match and not worry about what is going on and the sights in the stands.
Did I misread something? The report was that this woman was watching a match and simply being wrapped in an Ukrainian flag. Was she vociferously saying something to the Russian players?
AcesAnnie wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:38 am
...
The players in the match were Kalinskaya and Potapova who are both Russian. One of them had to have had a problem with it. I could have easily understood, if the fan was making comments that she should have been removed, but she was just sitting there watching the match. The two players are there for one reason and that is to play a tennis match and not worry about what is going on and the sights in the stands.
Did I misread something? The report was that this woman was watching a match and simply being wrapped in an Ukrainian flag. Was she vociferously saying something to the Russian players?
I'll play devil's advocate. Usually when fans display flags, it's the flag of a player on the court. This match featured two Russians. This was a protest during a match, even if it was silent and peaceful - at least, that's a reasonable interpretation. I agree with her stance and I think the umpire overreached, but it's not like someone flying the Serbian flag when Djokovic is playing. Apples and oranges.
I think they should have left the lady alone, but I can see how the Russian players found it hard to ignore. What makes it different than someone cheering for your opponent is that this had nothing to do with the tennis match itself, and who knows what kind of hostilities some Russian players have been subjected to.
It's possible to have full sympathy and support for Ukraine/Ukranians and also sympathy for innocent Russians (particularly players) who are targets of outrage.
AcesAnnie wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:38 am
...
The players in the match were Kalinskaya and Potapova who are both Russian. One of them had to have had a problem with it. I could have easily understood, if the fan was making comments that she should have been removed, but she was just sitting there watching the match. The two players are there for one reason and that is to play a tennis match and not worry about what is going on and the sights in the stands.
Did I misread something? The report was that this woman was watching a match and simply being wrapped in an Ukrainian flag. Was she vociferously saying something to the Russian players?
You did not miss a thing. The woman in question was only draped in the Ukrainian flag. She did not utter a word during the match. She was just sitting there watching the match. This behavior seemingly disturbed one of the Russian players. The chair umpire then asked her to remove the flag or she would have to leave.All the fans sitting around her came to her support, but instead she left to not make a huge issue of it. Later, while walking the grounds a security member approached her and told her that she was violating the rules that the flag was not regulation size. The security member escorted her to the parking lot to put the flag back into her car and she was able to return to the event. I am not sure if she did return or just left.
This must be some rule for just Cincinnati, because I have seen large flags in all the events. I also believe if this would have been any other flag then the Ukrainian Flag or possibly a Russian Flag, this would not have been an issue at all.
In terms of what meganfernadez just stated, I do agree that the woman was making a protest. The Russian players should not however have been affected by the flag in the stands. Now if the woman was saying things to the players that is different. I have been to many professional sporting events where fans have signs about players that have not been very nice and some events they even chant nasty things to the players while they are on the playing field. The professional players in every instance have just blocked out all of it and played the game. That is what these two tennis players should have done that day, played tennis.
I'll play devil's advocate. Usually when people display flags, it's the flag of a player on the court. This match featured two Russians. This was a protest during a match, even if it was silent and peaceful - at least, that's a reasonable interpretation. I agree with her stance and I think the umpire overreached, but it's not like someone flying the Serbian flag when Djokovic is playing. Apples and oranges.
I think they should have left the lady alone, but I can see how the Russian players found it hard to ignore. What makes it different than someone cheering for your opponent is that this had nothing to do with the tennis match itself, and who knows what kind of hostilities some Russian players have been subjected to.
It's possible to have full sympathy and support for Ukraine/Ukranians and also sympathy for innocent Russians (particularly players) who targets of the outrage.
In today's world, with SM and a trillion smartphones around the world, if any Russian player had been subjected to hostilities we would know of them. I really doubt it would not come out.
I'll play devil's advocate. Usually when people display flags, it's the flag of a player on the court. This match featured two Russians. This was a protest during a match, even if it was silent and peaceful - at least, that's a reasonable interpretation. I agree with her stance and I think the umpire overreached, but it's not like someone flying the Serbian flag when Djokovic is playing. Apples and oranges.
I think they should have left the lady alone, but I can see how the Russian players found it hard to ignore. What makes it different than someone cheering for your opponent is that this had nothing to do with the tennis match itself, and who knows what kind of hostilities some Russian players have been subjected to.
It's possible to have full sympathy and support for Ukraine/Ukranians and also sympathy for innocent Russians (particularly players) who targets of the outrage.
In today's world, with SM and a trillion smartphones around the world, if any Russian player had been subjected to hostilities we would know of them. I really doubt it would not come out.
Most likely both Kalinskaya & Potapova are not in support of the Russian invasion, but still they cannot be outspoken about it much at all.
The thing is these two ladies were on that court for one sole purpose and that was to play a tennis match. They were not there to look around in the stands and worry about a lady sitting quietly in the stands draped in a Ukrainian flag. I have been to many professional sporting events where I have seen signs made by fans that ridicule the opposing players, and even have heard loud nasty chants towards players and the professional players have all blocked it out and played the game. That is what these two tennis players should have done, they should have just done what they were set out to do and play the tennis match.
This must be some rule for just Cincinnati, because I have seen large flags in all the events. I also believe if this would have been any other flag then the Ukrainian Flag or possibly a Russian Flag, this would not have been an issue at all.
[/quote]
This rule is definitely on the books at the U.S. Open, and I assume it's universal at least at USTA events, though I imagine enforcement varies wildly.
This must be some rule for just Cincinnati, because I have seen large flags in all the events. I also believe if this would have been any other flag then the Ukrainian Flag or possibly a Russian Flag, this would not have been an issue at all.
This rule is definitely on the books at the U.S. Open, and I assume it's universal at least at USTA events, though I imagine enforcement varies wildly.
[/quote]
It must vary extremely widely, because I see these sorts of flags all the time at all the events.
This must be some rule for just Cincinnati, because I have seen large flags in all the events. I also believe if this would have been any other flag then the Ukrainian Flag or possibly a Russian Flag, this would not have been an issue at all.
This rule is definitely on the books at the U.S. Open, and I assume it's universal at least at USTA events, though I imagine enforcement varies wildly.
It must vary extremely widely, because I see these sorts of flags all the time at all the events.
[/quote]
Of course the flag of a player on the court wouldn't have been an issue. The issue here was that it wasn't supporting either player. I don't think it's fair to say "what the Russian players should have done" or "should have felt." We aren't in their shoes. We don't know what they're going through as individuals or players. They were just banned from that biggest tournament in the world. You don't think someone (esp someone young, not a lot of life experience) might feel a little persecuted by tennis? I could see that. For me, only individuals determine what should and should not bother them in this very personal situation that I, for one, cannot fathom.
Disagree we would have heard about every little aggression, macro or micro, that has happened to a player. Very likely people would want to downplay it. It's embarrassing, and they're not exactly sympathetic figures.
People tend to judge when they should be inferring. Here, I infer that it was upsetting to the Russian players and that's very likely a reasonable reaction since they have been going though something I cannot possibly understand.
Was it the right call? Probably not. But were the players oversensitive babies and agents of oppression? Not in my book.
This must be some rule for just Cincinnati, because I have seen large flags in all the events. I also believe if this would have been any other flag then the Ukrainian Flag or possibly a Russian Flag, this would not have been an issue at all.
This rule is definitely on the books at the U.S. Open, and I assume it's universal at least at USTA events, though I imagine enforcement varies wildly.
It must vary extremely widely, because I see these sorts of flags all the time at all the events.
Of course the flag of a player on the court wouldn't have been an issue. The issue here was that it wasn't supporting either player. I don't think it's fair to say "what the Russian players should have done" or "should have felt." We aren't in their shoes. We don't know what they're going through as individuals or players. They were just banned from that biggest tournament in the world. You don't think someone (esp someone young, not a lot of life experience) might feel a little persecuted by tennis? I could see that. For me, only individuals determine what should and should not bother them in this very personal situation that I, for one, cannot fathom.
Disagree we would have heard about every little aggression, macro or micro, that has happened to a player. Very likely people would want to downplay it. It's embarrassing, and they're not exactly sympathetic figures.
People tend to judge when they should be inferring. Here, I infer that it was upsetting to the Russian players and that's very likely a reasonable reaction since they have been going though something I cannot possibly understand.
Was it the right call? Probably not. But were the players oversensitive babies and agents of oppression? Not in my book.
[/quote]
Yes, you are correct that it is not my place to assume what the Russian players should have done or felt. That was wrong of me to assume that. I have however seen fans do a lot more in aggravating professional players, with the pros not reacting in any way at all. I do however understand the current circumstances these Russian players are going through, and especially the pressures from their government. That has to be extremely hard on them.
I think the entire situation was blown out of proportion, and the fan did the right thing by leaving. What I really did not like is outside of the stadium or court this fan was at, the fan was once again approached by security and then escorted to her car to dispose of the flag in her car. I don't see how that was offending anyone on the grounds, and certainly no Russian players.
This rule is definitely on the books at the U.S. Open, and I assume it's universal at least at USTA events, though I imagine enforcement varies wildly.
It must vary extremely widely, because I see these sorts of flags all the time at all the events.
Of course the flag of a player on the court wouldn't have been an issue. The issue here was that it wasn't supporting either player. I don't think it's fair to say "what the Russian players should have done" or "should have felt." We aren't in their shoes. We don't know what they're going through as individuals or players. They were just banned from that biggest tournament in the world. You don't think someone (esp someone young, not a lot of life experience) might feel a little persecuted by tennis? I could see that. For me, only individuals determine what should and should not bother them in this very personal situation that I, for one, cannot fathom.
Disagree we would have heard about every little aggression, macro or micro, that has happened to a player. Very likely people would want to downplay it. It's embarrassing, and they're not exactly sympathetic figures.
People tend to judge when they should be inferring. Here, I infer that it was upsetting to the Russian players and that's very likely a reasonable reaction since they have been going though something I cannot possibly understand.
Was it the right call? Probably not. But were the players oversensitive babies and agents of oppression? Not in my book.
Yes, you are correct that it is not my place to assume what the Russian players should have done or felt. That was wrong of me to assume that. I have however seen fans do a lot more in aggravating professional players, with the pros not reacting in any way at all. I do however understand the current circumstances these Russian players are going through, and especially the pressures from their government. That has to be extremely hard on them.
I think the entire situation was blown out of proportion, and the fan did the right thing by leaving. What I really did not like is outside of the stadium or court this fan was at, the fan was once again approached by security and then escorted to her car to dispose of the flag in her car. I don't see how that was offending anyone on the grounds, and certainly no Russian players.
[/quote]
Totally agree that they shouldn't have made her take the flag to her car. What if she wanted to display it at a Ukranian's match? What was the tournament so afraid of? She definitely wasn't being outrageously disruptive. That was disappointing.
It must vary extremely widely, because I see these sorts of flags all the time at all the events.
Of course the flag of a player on the court wouldn't have been an issue. The issue here was that it wasn't supporting either player. I don't think it's fair to say "what the Russian players should have done" or "should have felt." We aren't in their shoes. We don't know what they're going through as individuals or players. They were just banned from that biggest tournament in the world. You don't think someone (esp someone young, not a lot of life experience) might feel a little persecuted by tennis? I could see that. For me, only individuals determine what should and should not bother them in this very personal situation that I, for one, cannot fathom.
Disagree we would have heard about every little aggression, macro or micro, that has happened to a player. Very likely people would want to downplay it. It's embarrassing, and they're not exactly sympathetic figures.
People tend to judge when they should be inferring. Here, I infer that it was upsetting to the Russian players and that's very likely a reasonable reaction since they have been going though something I cannot possibly understand.
Was it the right call? Probably not. But were the players oversensitive babies and agents of oppression? Not in my book.
Yes, you are correct that it is not my place to assume what the Russian players should have done or felt. That was wrong of me to assume that. I have however seen fans do a lot more in aggravating professional players, with the pros not reacting in any way at all. I do however understand the current circumstances these Russian players are going through, and especially the pressures from their government. That has to be extremely hard on them.
I think the entire situation was blown out of proportion, and the fan did the right thing by leaving. What I really did not like is outside of the stadium or court this fan was at, the fan was once again approached by security and then escorted to her car to dispose of the flag in her car. I don't see how that was offending anyone on the grounds, and certainly no Russian players.
Totally agree that they shouldn't have made her take the flag to her car. What if she wanted to display it at a Ukranian's match? What was the tournament so afraid of? She definitely wasn't being outrageously disruptive. That was disappointing.
[/quote]
I wonder how many large flags from Spain when Rafa plays tomorrow or even tonight, how many United States "Old Glory" Flags when Serena plays will be asked to be taken back to their cars?
by ponchi101
AcesAnnie wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:03 pm
...
I wonder how many large flags from Spain when Rafa plays tomorrow or even tonight, how many United States "Old Glory" Flags when Serena plays will be asked to be taken back to their cars?
AcesAnnie wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:03 pm
...
I wonder how many large flags from Spain when Rafa plays tomorrow or even tonight, how many United States "Old Glory" Flags when Serena plays will be asked to be taken back to their cars?
Yes.
Certain countries seems to bring out the flags more than others. I see Argentinian and Serbian flags more than Spanish, French, American, German...
AcesAnnie wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:03 pm
...
I wonder how many large flags from Spain when Rafa plays tomorrow or even tonight, how many United States "Old Glory" Flags when Serena plays will be asked to be taken back to their cars?
Yes.
Certain countries seems to bring out the flags more than others. I see Argentinian and Serbian flags more than Spanish, French, American, German...
I don't mind the flags at all in support of the players. Like you stated and I failed to see originally the Ukrainian flag that was in the stands was not in support of a player on that day. It was in support of the protest of the war. I am all for people hanging the Ukrainian flag to support them in this war, but you are correct this event and certainly not court side where two Russian players are playing a tennis match is the place for a such protest.
Walking around the event with the flag wrapped around yourself, I have no problem at all. Sitting in the stands where a Ukrainian player is playing a match, no problem with that.
Certain countries seems to bring out the flags more than others. I see Argentinian and Serbian flags more than Spanish, French, American, German...
I don't mind the flags at all in support of the players. Like you stated and I failed to see originally the Ukrainian flag that was in the stands was not in support of a player on that day. It was in support of the protest of the war. I am all for people hanging the Ukrainian flag to support them in this war, but you are correct this event and certainly not court side where two Russian players are playing a tennis match is the place for a such protest.
Walking around the event with the flag wrapped around yourself, I have no problem at all. Sitting in the stands where a Ukrainian player is playing a match, no problem with that.
Same!
by AcesAnnie I wonder how a fan would be treated if they would come in support of Daniil Medvedev wrapped in a Russian flag? I would hope the fan would not be harassed by other fans, or also be asked to remove the flag in support of the player. I have my doubts though, because the tennis tour has already removed all Russian flag symbols next to the Russian players names. All sports have actually done that with Russian Athletes.
by ponchi101 If a fan comes to cheer on Medvedev with a Russian flag wrapped around him/her, let them. That is the point.
by Deuce I still feel that what the tournament people (chair umpire, security personnel) did in telling 'Lola' that she is not allowed to sit there quietly wrapped in a Ukrainian flag is significantly worse than Lola sitting there quietly wrapped in the Ukrainian flag.
If the Russian player - or players - was/were 'uncomfortable' with that, so be it. They have the choice to be uncomfortable, or to ignore it.
Part of life is being uncomfortable with certain things, and it's unrealistic and very unfair (and arrogant) to expect other people to cater to you at all times and ensure that you are always 'comfortable'. Discomforts happen to everyone every day. It's up to each person to learn to deal with them - because eliminating everything that makes us uncomfortable is extremely unrealistic.
Now... speaking of flags...
'Dr. Lou' was the ultimate tennis 'flag man'. I met him a few times - he was a pure character!
Wertheim wrote a really good article about him a while ago - but it's no longer available for some reason.
In its place, I offer this article...
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:38 pm
If a fan comes to cheer on Medvedev with a Russian flag wrapped around him/her, let them. That is the point.
But sadly that isn't the point. Things get way too political with people, and I feel it would with that.
by Irena2
Deuce wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 8:05 pm
Now... speaking of flags...
'Dr. Lou' was the ultimate tennis 'flag man'. I met him a few times - he was a pure character!
Wertheim wrote a really good article about him a while ago - but it's no longer available for some reason.
In its place, I offer this article...
Dr Lou! I remember him! I sat next to him a coupla times at matches and on the train once heading back to the city. He was an interesting guy. Thanks for the article!
Deuce wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 8:05 pm
Now... speaking of flags...
'Dr. Lou' was the ultimate tennis 'flag man'. I met him a few times - he was a pure character!
Wertheim wrote a really good article about him a while ago - but it's no longer available for some reason.
In its place, I offer this article...
Dr Lou! I remember him! I sat next to him a coupla times at matches and on the train once heading back to the city. He was an interesting guy. Thanks for the article!
Yes - the definition of a genuine character. Official member of the ATP (Association of Tennis Psychologists - he was the only member!).
Great entertainer at tennis tournaments... but I'm not sure I could endure a train ride of over 20 minutes with him!
This must be some rule for just Cincinnati, because I have seen large flags in all the events. I also believe if this would have been any other flag then the Ukrainian Flag or possibly a Russian Flag, this would not have been an issue at all.
This rule is definitely on the books at the U.S. Open, and I assume it's universal at least at USTA events, though I imagine enforcement varies wildly.
It must vary extremely widely, because I see these sorts of flags all the time at all the events.
Of course the flag of a player on the court wouldn't have been an issue. The issue here was that it wasn't supporting either player. I don't think it's fair to say "what the Russian players should have done" or "should have felt." We aren't in their shoes. We don't know what they're going through as individuals or players. They were just banned from that biggest tournament in the world. You don't think someone (esp someone young, not a lot of life experience) might feel a little persecuted by tennis? I could see that. For me, only individuals determine what should and should not bother them in this very personal situation that I, for one, cannot fathom.
Disagree we would have heard about every little aggression, macro or micro, that has happened to a player. Very likely people would want to downplay it. It's embarrassing, and they're not exactly sympathetic figures.
People tend to judge when they should be inferring. Here, I infer that it was upsetting to the Russian players and that's very likely a reasonable reaction since they have been going though something I cannot possibly understand.
Was it the right call? Probably not. But were the players oversensitive babies and agents of oppression? Not in my book.
[/quote]
For what it's worth, here's the list of prohibited items at the U.S., which includes "flags and signs", as well as an "elastic clause" at the end that lets staff ban anything they "deem inappropriate". Not sure what the issue with flags is, whether they don't want it to turn into some sort football hooliganism or they're just large and distracting, but I did see a woman told to put her Union Jack flag away during a Tim Henman match way back when. But you do see them, and obviously plenty of signs.
Prohibited Items
The following items are prohibited and MAY NOT be brought onto the premises:
Backpacks (Exception: single compartment drawstring bags)
Hard coolers or like containers
Sealed packages of any kind
Glass bottles or cans (Exception: reusable water bottles-24 oz. or less, metal and plastic)
Aerosol cans or noise-making devices
Alcohol
Video cameras or recording devices (Exception: cell phones and SLR cameras, with lenses up to and not exceeding 300mm, with video or recording capabilities)
Computers or laptops
Weapons (regardless of permit)
Animals (Exception: service animals)
Flags, banners or signs
Any materials, items or apparel constituting unauthorized advertising or promotion
Laser pointing devices
Tennis racquets
Drones (UAS-Unmanned Aircraft Systems) or other model aircraft
Selfie-sticks or other telescopic devices
Any other items deemed dangerous or inappropriate by US Open personnel, in their sole discretion
by meganfernandez
FredX wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 11:53 am
For what it's worth, here's the list of prohibited items at the U.S., which includes "flags and signs", as well as an "elastic clause" at the end that lets staff ban anything they "deem inappropriate". Not sure what the issue with flags is, whether they don't want it to turn into some sort football hooliganism or they're just large and distracting, but I did see a woman told to put her Union Jack flag away during a Tim Henman match way back when. But you do see them, and obviously plenty of signs.
Prohibited Items
The following items are prohibited and MAY NOT be brought onto the premises:
Flags, banners or signs
[deleting a bunch of stuff for space]
There have been plenty of flags in Cincinnati, though. Many, many. On Center Court, on the grounds...unless this is a brand-new rule, they don't enforce this consistently.
FredX wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 11:53 am
For what it's worth, here's the list of prohibited items at the U.S., which includes "flags and signs", as well as an "elastic clause" at the end that lets staff ban anything they "deem inappropriate". Not sure what the issue with flags is, whether they don't want it to turn into some sort football hooliganism or they're just large and distracting, but I did see a woman told to put her Union Jack flag away during a Tim Henman match way back when. But you do see them, and obviously plenty of signs.
Prohibited Items
The following items are prohibited and MAY NOT be brought onto the premises:
Flags, banners or signs
[deleting a bunch of stuff for space]
There have been plenty of flags in Cincinnati, though. Many, many. On Center Court, on the grounds...unless this is a brand-new rule, they don't enforce this consistently.
I've seen them with my own two eyes on the TV. It was enforced that day, first because it was brought up by the players which was okay. Then it was also enforced because of what countries flag it was while the lady was walking the grounds outside the courts. They can say all they want it was because of the size of the flag, but that was definitely not the case. It was because of what country the flag represented. If the flag was any other country, this lady would not have been approached.
by ti-amie
by Deuce
FredX wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 11:53 am
For what it's worth, here's the list of prohibited items at the U.S., which includes "flags and signs", as well as an "elastic clause" at the end that lets staff ban anything they "deem inappropriate". Not sure what the issue with flags is, whether they don't want it to turn into some sort football hooliganism or they're just large and distracting, but I did see a woman told to put her Union Jack flag away during a Tim Henman match way back when. But you do see them, and obviously plenty of signs.
Prohibited Items
The following items are prohibited and MAY NOT be brought onto the premises:
Backpacks (Exception: single compartment drawstring bags)
Hard coolers or like containers
Sealed packages of any kind
Glass bottles or cans (Exception: reusable water bottles-24 oz. or less, metal and plastic)
Aerosol cans or noise-making devices
Alcohol
Video cameras or recording devices (Exception: cell phones and SLR cameras, with lenses up to and not exceeding 300mm, with video or recording capabilities)
Computers or laptops
Weapons (regardless of permit)
Animals (Exception: service animals)
Flags, banners or signs
Any materials, items or apparel constituting unauthorized advertising or promotion
Laser pointing devices
Tennis racquets
Drones (UAS-Unmanned Aircraft Systems) or other model aircraft
Selfie-sticks or other telescopic devices
Any other items deemed dangerous or inappropriate by US Open personnel, in their sole discretion
^ As foolish as that list is, the last thing mentioned is the most serious. It basically means that a random 'security person' can deny you entry for any reason he/she wants.
This is where I usually mention something about the irony of the claim to be the 'land of the free'... Sigh...
Half of those items ^ can be purchased on site! Beverage cans, bags, racquets, etc. are for sale on site.
Pretty soon, fans will only be able to attend tennis tournaments entirely naked - and even then, will be subject to 'cavity searches'!
It's completely ridiculous.
by ti-amie Tennis ball gate rages on.
by Deuce
ti-amie wrote: ↑Sat Aug 20, 2022 8:46 pm
Tennis ball gate rages on.
Yes, they are different balls for the men and for the women, and have been so for a while now. And of course the two balls will play significantly differently.
Were they changed to be more different recently? I don't know - but I would tend to doubt it.
Regarding the difference in seam size - the seams are the same size, but there's more felt on the men's ball, and so that extra felt hides part of the seam, making it appear as if the women's ball has a wider seam.
ti-amie wrote: ↑Sat Aug 20, 2022 8:46 pm
Tennis ball gate rages on.
Yes, they are different balls for the men and for the women, and have been so for a while now. And of course the two balls will play significantly differently.
Were they changed to be more different recently? I don't know - but I would tend to doubt it.
Regarding the difference in seam size - the seams are the same size, but there's more felt on the men's ball, and so that extra felt hides part of the seam, making it appear as if the women's ball has a wider seam.
There are different balls for the men and the women? Is there a specific reasoning for this? I imagine the balls do not play any differently. So why make the balls different?
ti-amie wrote: ↑Sat Aug 20, 2022 8:46 pm
Tennis ball gate rages on.
Yes, they are different balls for the men and for the women, and have been so for a while now. And of course the two balls will play significantly differently.
Were they changed to be more different recently? I don't know - but I would tend to doubt it.
Regarding the difference in seam size - the seams are the same size, but there's more felt on the men's ball, and so that extra felt hides part of the seam, making it appear as if the women's ball has a wider seam.
There are different balls for the men and the women? Is there a specific reasoning for this? I imagine the balls do not play any differently. So why make the balls different?
Evidently they play differently - women’s is lighter. I think comparing the men’s to the women’s is irrelevant - the ball the men play with has no bearing on a WTA player’s performance Comparing the ball between tournaments is relevant.
Deuce wrote: ↑Sat Aug 20, 2022 11:33 pm
Yes, they are different balls for the men and for the women, and have been so for a while now. And of course the two balls will play significantly differently.
Were they changed to be more different recently? I don't know - but I would tend to doubt it.
Regarding the difference in seam size - the seams are the same size, but there's more felt on the men's ball, and so that extra felt hides part of the seam, making it appear as if the women's ball has a wider seam.
There are different balls for the men and the women? Is there a specific reasoning for this? I imagine the balls do not play any differently. So why make the balls different?
Evidently they play differently - women’s is lighter. I think comparing the men’s to the women’s is irrelevant - the ball the men play with has no bearing on a WTA player’s performance Comparing the ball between tournaments is relevant.
I get Iga’s point, though.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
So are they ultimately saying that the women need a lighter ball because they don't hit as hard as the men, and the lighter balls compared to the heavier balls would travel faster? I don't know, I am just asking the question.
AcesAnnie wrote:
There are different balls for the men and the women? Is there a specific reasoning for this? I imagine the balls do not play any differently. So why make the balls different?
Evidently they play differently - women’s is lighter. I think comparing the men’s to the women’s is irrelevant - the ball the men play with has no bearing on a WTA player’s performance Comparing the ball between tournaments is relevant.
I get Iga’s point, though.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
So are they ultimately saying that the women need a lighter ball because they don't hit as hard as the men, and the lighter balls compared to the heavier balls would travel faster? I don't know, I am just asking the question.
Iga says the lighter balls travel faster, yeah. Her theory is that back in the day when women weren’t as strong as they are now, maybe the heavy ball caused injuries so they used this one. (Or maybe the tour just wanted the extra oomph - maybe players did, too - this is just me guessing.) And she says that now the WTA players can handle a heavy ball and she thinks they should play with one in the US Open series, which implies that this ball is lighter than others that women play with throughout the year.
meganfernandez wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 12:25 am
Evidently they play differently - women’s is lighter. I think comparing the men’s to the women’s is irrelevant - the ball the men play with has no bearing on a WTA player’s performance Comparing the ball between tournaments is relevant.
I get Iga’s point, though.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
So are they ultimately saying that the women need a lighter ball because they don't hit as hard as the men, and the lighter balls compared to the heavier balls would travel faster? I don't know, I am just asking the question.
Iga says the lighter balls travel faster, yeah. Her theory is that back in the day when women weren’t as strong as they are now, maybe the heavy ball caused injuries so they used this one. (Or maybe the tour just wanted the extra oomph - maybe players did, too - this is just me guessing.) And she says that now the WTA players can handle a heavy ball and she thinks they should play with one in the US Open series, which implies that this ball is lighter than others that women play with throughout the year.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Definitely over the years I have seen some pretty strong women's players including, Martina, Graf, Seles, Pierce, Mauresmo, Davenport, Capriati, The Williams Sisters, and even to some extent BJK. They could hit a mean ground stroke.
AcesAnnie wrote:
So are they ultimately saying that the women need a lighter ball because they don't hit as hard as the men, and the lighter balls compared to the heavier balls would travel faster? I don't know, I am just asking the question.
Iga says the lighter balls travel faster, yeah. Her theory is that back in the day when women weren’t as strong as they are now, maybe the heavy ball caused injuries so they used this one. (Or maybe the tour just wanted the extra oomph - maybe players did, too - this is just me guessing.) And she says that now the WTA players can handle a heavy ball and she thinks they should play with one in the US Open series, which implies that this ball is lighter than others that women play with throughout the year.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Definitely over the years I have seen some pretty strong women's players including, Martina, Graf, Seles, Pierce, Mauresmo, Davenport, Capriati, The Williams Sisters, and even to some extent BJK. They could hit a mean ground stroke.
meganfernandez wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 1:50 am
Iga says the lighter balls travel faster, yeah. Her theory is that back in the day when women weren’t as strong as they are now, maybe the heavy ball caused injuries so they used this one. (Or maybe the tour just wanted the extra oomph - maybe players did, too - this is just me guessing.) And she says that now the WTA players can handle a heavy ball and she thinks they should play with one in the US Open series, which implies that this ball is lighter than others that women play with throughout the year.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Definitely over the years I have seen some pretty strong women's players including, Martina, Graf, Seles, Pierce, Mauresmo, Davenport, Capriati, The Williams Sisters, and even to some extent BJK. They could hit a mean ground stroke.
Sure. But now It’s common.
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Yes, there are a lot more players that hit the cover off the ball.
by ponchi101 Heavier ball, easier to make it land inside the court.
Go play with Tretorns. Heavy to the limit that is authorized. They always land in.
by meganfernandez
ponchi101 wrote:Heavier ball, easier to make it land inside the court.
Go play with Tretorns. Heavy to the limit that is authorized. They always land in.
I want some!! Never even heard of Tretorn balls. Maybe they are so heavy, I can’t get them over the net.
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by Deuce Tretorn pressureless balls have been around for close to 40 years. They come in a cardboard box instead of a pressurized can.
I tried them a few decades ago and found them hard and heavy - the kind of ball that'll wreck a lot of elbows.
I'm sure they're different now than they were then - hopefully better.
Strangely, though, they were easier to find 30 years ago than they are today.
Tretorn was originally a Swedish shoe company.
Some interesting - and unusual - stuff here - including Billy Joel and Abba...
ponchi101 wrote:Heavier ball, easier to make it land inside the court.
Go play with Tretorns. Heavy to the limit that is authorized. They always land in.
I want some!! Never even heard of Tretorn balls. Maybe they are so heavy, I can’t get them over the net.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The link above is very good, but indeed, you must be careful with them. Absolutely difficult to power if you have a very light racquet, and you will very likely need to put an anti-vibration thingy on your strings. And, if you have short strokes, yes, you will not get the ball far enough.
But I really like them because they play well at altitude, and my playing area in Bogota is close to 10,000 feet.
ponchi101 wrote:Heavier ball, easier to make it land inside the court.
Go play with Tretorns. Heavy to the limit that is authorized. They always land in.
I want some!! Never even heard of Tretorn balls. Maybe they are so heavy, I can’t get them over the net.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The link above is very good, but indeed, you must be careful with them. Absolutely difficult to power if you have a very light racquet, and you will very likely need to put an anti-vibration thingy on your strings. And, if you have short strokes, yes, you will not get the ball far enough.
But I really like them because they play well at altitude, and my playing area in Bogota is close to 10,000 feet.
Since BOTH of my elbows hurt for some reason, I'll skip it. I didn't know Tretorn even made balls. I only know the shoes.
by AcesAnnie I never thought I hit the ball very hard or with much technique at all, but at the club I attend which has many different sports that the patrons get involved in, and the main one I am involved in is running while my husband is involved with golf. We do both however dabble on the tennis side of things as well and have for many years.
Just a few days ago, one of the club instructor/pros approached me and said to me that he thought I had some potential for the game. This guy was in his 30's, I suppose and I just laughed and said that I have been playing tennis for a very long time and this is good as it gets. He went on to explain to me that my technique was not bad at all and with some work, he thought I could easily improve the level of my game.
I am 57 years old and I have been thinking about what he said. I have used tennis as a platform for exercise and fun and really nothing more. My main thing is running, and that would really stay the same no matter if I decide to take on this challenge or not. I just don't know what to do. Should I start taking these lessons to improve my game even at the advanced age that I am, or should I just keep it relaxed and the same as I have been doing it for so many years?
by ponchi101 Take at least a few lessons. Get your grips evaluated, make sure you get some corrections on probable wrong things you are doing.
Get at least one lesson on volleying (most club level players really can't execute the shot), get one lesson on serving (ditto). Get one lesson on back hands, because the shot has evolved so much some people are really only slapping at the ball (and it will depend on whether you have a one handed, a two handed, and the grips you use).
I say people should get one lesson once every six months. Just to check what things are working, and what things can be improved.
by AcesAnnie
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 3:26 pm
Take at least a few lessons. Get your grips evaluated, make sure you get some corrections on probable wrong things you are doing.
Get at least one lesson on volleying (most club level players really can't execute the shot), get one lesson on serving (ditto). Get one lesson on back hands, because the shot has evolved so much some people are really only slapping at the ball (and it will depend on whether you have a one handed, a two handed, and the grips you use).
I say people should get one lesson once every six months. Just to check what things are working, and what things can be improved.
I think it would be interesting to see if this old broad has it in her to improve. With running, I have reached a plateau with my age and actually have started to decline. So seeing if I have some ability to improve on this game would be interesting and a challenge for me. I will probably give it a go, because also my husband has been hinting to me for some time that I should retire early from my Medical Transcriptionist job that I do for him and just take care of the home and spend more time with my granddaughter who is 1. So not having the job would free up a lot of my time for the tennis lessons and other stuff as well.
by ponchi101 I say I finally learned to hit a FH around age 45. My slice BH reached its peak around the same time.
I had to. My legs were no longer the same, so my strokes had to improve.
by AcesAnnie
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 3:45 pm
I say I finally learned to hit a FH around age 45. My slice BH reached its peak around the same time.
I had to. My legs were no longer the same, so my strokes had to improve.
Being a runner, my legs are still strong. It is my knees that are falling apart.
by ponchi101 I am only surprised that this issue is coming up now, because, at a minimum, this has been going on since last year. I remember we talked about it.
It is Tuesday. If so many women are not liking the ball, I gather that changing them would be just a matter of one afternoon meeting. It is not as if NYC does not have enough balls in the city.
by JazzNU
Nick Kyrgios faces legal action over '700 drinks' jibe during Wimbledon
Reuters
A tennis fan is taking legal action against Nick Kyrgios after he accused her of being "drunk out of her mind" during his defeat in the Wimbledon final.
In a statement released by her solicitors Tuesday, Anna Palus said the 27-year-old Australian had defamed her by making "a reckless and entirely baseless allegation."
"Not only did this cause considerable harm on the day, resulting in my temporary removal from the arena, but Mr. Kyrgios's false allegation was broadcast to, and read by, millions around the world, causing me and my family very substantial damage and distress," she said.
Kyrgios, well known for his outbursts, complained to the umpire during his match against Novak Djokovic, saying that a fan had been talking to him during points.
Asked by the umpire to identify the fan, Kyrgios then said: "The one with the dress, the one who looks like she's had about 700 drinks, bro."
Palus, 32, who said she had attended the men's final with her mother, instructed her solicitors, Brett Wilson LLP, to begin legal proceedings against Kyrgios and said any damages she wins will be donated to charity.
"I hope that Mr. Kyrgios will reflect on the harm he has caused me and my family and offer a prompt resolution to this matter," she said. "However, if he is unwilling to do this, I am committed to obtaining vindication in the High Court."
Kyrgios was appearing in his first Grand Slam final and took the first set against Djokovic but lost his cool as he headed to a four-set defeat on Centre Court.
by Deuce He's an absolute magnet for trouble, isn't he?
Now that this particular ice has been broken, expect more loons to come out of the woodwork...
by ponchi101 He should have not said that to her.
But suing for this is basically looking for money.
by ashkor87 oh, there is always something to learn, I am 67 now and I am trying to learn the double-handed backhand from my son, he executes it so well!
by ponchi101 Blasphemy! A one handed moving to a 2 handed
I went the opposite. Grew up with a two handed, moved to a one hander around 19. It became my solid side.
Good luck with that. Let us know how it goes.
by AcesAnnie Come September 6th, I will be starting my first tennis lesson from the club professional. It will be an enlightening experience for me to see how I can improve on this game. I will also have much more time for my tennis and also running, as my husband and I have come to the decision that it is the appropriate time for me to retire at the end of this year(around the holidays). I have worked many years as a Medical Transcriptionist for my husband who is a Neurologist and my husband has wanted me to retire for sometime now to just tend to the home and what I enjoy doing. So now I will be going into that next chapter in my life.
by ponchi101
Only piece of advice (I am allowed to): Tell the pro what you want from each lesson. Don't let him just feed you balls. Be very clear with what you want: "I want to hit a topspin forehand" (example).
Too many people just have a pro feed them balls and not correct technique.
And HAVE LOTS OF FUN! Good on the retirement news.
by ti-amie
AcesAnnie wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 4:05 pm
Come September 6th, I will be starting my first tennis lesson from the club professional. It will be an enlightening experience for me to see how I can improve on this game. I will also have much more time for my tennis and also running, as my husband and I have come to the decision that it is the appropriate time for me to retire at the end of this year(around the holidays). I have worked many years as a Medical Transcriptionist for my husband who is a Neurologist and my husband has wanted me to retire for sometime now to just tend to the home and what I enjoy doing. So now I will be going into that next chapter in my life.
Congratulations on your retirement! Now you can do everything you wanted (within reason of course )
by AcesAnnie Thank you ponch101 & ti-amie, it certainly will be a different experience for me. I have worked either as a receptionist/secretary or as a Medical Transcriptionist all of my working life, other than when my two children were young. I have enjoyed my running and at a younger age, I was pretty competitive at it. Now with running I do it for keeping in shape and the pure enjoyment of it. Tennis was just something that always intrigued me. Watching the game as an outsider and seeing the gracefulness and also power of the game, I quickly became interested in that. I played the game for exercise and enjoyment, and never really thought much of perfecting it because it was just fun for me. Now, that this person who seems to have some know how of the game says I have some natural ability for the game, I will see if he can grow my game into another level. It will certainly be interesting.
I will also add input to the lessons as to what I want to learn and the things he will attempt to adjust in my game and have me work on.
by meganfernandez Oh dear
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
by Suliso Christina McHale has retired from tennis after losing in USO qualifying.
by Deuce Every time I see Serena's daughter Olympia - in photos or on TV - she is dressed exactly like Serena.
This is the case again tonight - Serena is on the court in her 'glitter dress', and Olympia is in the seats in an identical dress.
While it will of course get many 'Oh, that's so cute" comments on 'social media', I don't like it, and feel that it reeks of Serena's ego. (And 'social media' reactions should certainly not be used as a measure of what is good.)
It's also quite unhealthy for the child, as it risks stunting her own individualism and independent nature.
Raising your child to be a mini version of yourself may satisfy one's ego - but it is not a good for the child.
I hope she stops doing this soon.
by ti-amie Olympia is in school now so I'm sure Serena has had to let go a bit.
As for dressing alike Olympia is still young. Give her a few more years and she'll be doing her own thing. You only see the dressing alike at tournaments. Outside of them Olympia dresses like a regular kid.
by Deuce
ti-amie wrote: ↑Tue Aug 30, 2022 2:23 am
Olympia is in school now so I'm sure Serena has had to let go a bit.
As for dressing alike Olympia is still young. Give her a few more years and she'll be doing her own thing. You only see the dressing alike at tournaments. Outside of them Olympia dresses like a regular kid.
No... Actually tonight is the first time I've seen them dressing alike at a tournament (Serena hasn't played much lately). Previously, I've seen them dressed the same at home, at a shopping mall, fooling around on a tennis court, etc.
It's far from a rare occurrence, it seems.
by ti-amie Fiona Ferro has filed rape charges against her former coach. This is a translation. The original, in Spanish, is behind a paywall.
Translation via Google Translate:
Today it has been announced that the tennis player Fiona Ferro, who fell before reaching the main draw of the US Open, has filed a complaint against her former coach Pierre Bouteyre for rape and sexual assault, in relation to some events that allegedly took place between 2012 and 2015 in Saint-Raphael (in French Provence), at a tennis club, when the player was between 15 and 18 years old.
Pierre Bouteyre was charged on August 18 and, according to several Nice media, the coach, who will soon turn 51, acknowledged "the materiality of the facts, but denies the accusation of rape", according to the words of his lawyer, Maitre Virginie Pin .
There is a restraining order so that Bouteyre does not get close to Ferro, who is currently 259 in the ATP ranking, and for the moment has been banned from training minors. The police have opened an investigation in case the defendant could have attacked other tennis players in the center where he was a coach.
ti-amie wrote: ↑Fri Sep 02, 2022 11:19 pm
Fiona Ferro has filed rape charges against her former coach. This is a translation. The original, in Spanish, is behind a paywall.
Translation via Google Translate:
Today it has been announced that the tennis player Fiona Ferro, who fell before reaching the main draw of the US Open, has filed a complaint against her former coach Pierre Bouteyre for rape and sexual assault, in relation to some events that allegedly took place between 2012 and 2015 in Saint-Raphael (in French Provence), at a tennis club, when the player was between 15 and 18 years old.
Pierre Bouteyre was charged on August 18 and, according to several Nice media, the coach, who will soon turn 51, acknowledged "the materiality of the facts, but denies the accusation of rape", according to the words of his lawyer, Maitre Virginie Pin .
There is a restraining order so that Bouteyre does not get close to Ferro, who is currently 259 in the ATP ranking, and for the moment has been banned from training minors. The police have opened an investigation in case the defendant could have attacked other tennis players in the center where he was a coach.
I assume they mean Fiona is currently #259 in the WTA rankings, not the ATP rankings - unless they've adopted one of Ashkor's alternative ranking systems .
Here's an English article about it, stating that Cornet is sort of involved, as well...
by ponchi101 A bit over the top for me, but I am not the one whose country is being invaded.
And I appreciate her honesty.
by ti-amie
The article is probably behind a paywall.
by ti-amie SvenTennis.eth @sventennis
Thank you @vika7 for giving your voice on this subject!!
@PHShriver has been brave to share story and I know there are many more! An anonymous number where people can call into is the first thing that needs to be established!
@wta
@itf
@atptour
No - it's not behind a paywall - at least right now, and for me, it is accessible...
by ti-amie When it comes to certain news outlets like the one above or the WSJ I don't even check to see if the article is paywalled or not. Glad that this isn't.
by ti-amie
by Suliso How privileged is truly privileged? Are we talking about Pegula level privileged or merely Federer and Nadal level privileged? An important distinction...
by ponchi101 Agree. Camila, from here, comes from middle class. Galan also. Alejandro Falla came from below, Santiago Giraldo is upper class. A mixed bag.
Personally, instead of the boring "Out" call, I'd like to see a tournament be brave enough to have the automation exclaim things like "Not even close!"... "Is that the best you can do?"... "How could you miss that?"... "Come on - my grandmother could make that shot!"... etc.
Personally, instead of the boring "Out" call, I'd like to see a tournament be brave enough to have the automation exclaim things like "Not even close!"... "Is that the best you can do?"... "How could you miss that?"... "Come on - my grandmother could make that shot!"... etc.
"That one will sting for weeks."
"That was for break point, you idiot!"
"Did you shank that?"
"WTF?"
"Whole court was open."
Maybe rotate in some positive ones:
"Closer than last time!"
"That was a hard shot."
"Finish your swing!"
"You're still making an obscene amount of money today."
"Don't worry, no one's really watching."
by ponchi101 As long as they do not use the name of the main sponsors, because shouting "Western and Southern Financial Management Services" after a 1st serve fault...
by Deuce Promoting a sponsor instead of an 'out' call a while ago would have resulted in the misplaced and rather awkward "You've come a long way, baby!"
by Fastbackss
Deuce wrote: ↑Tue Sep 13, 2022 2:59 am
Promoting a sponsor instead of an 'out' call a while ago would have resulted in the misplaced and rather awkward "You've come a long way, baby!"
Ha! The first few tournaments I went to were sponsored by Virginia Slims
by ponchi101 It was cigarettes. It was bad for your health. We know the whole story.
But when nobody wanted anything to do with the incipient tour, Virginia Slims was the sole sponsor willing to put some money there.
BJK and Navs have been very frank about how agonizing it was for them to accept them as sponsors.
Anyway, not what we are discussing here. Sorry.
by ti-amieSpecial report: Wimbledon in turmoil amid fallout from Russia ban
Plus: Debbie Jevans leads All England Club leadership race at a time when ill-feeling is bubbling up within the organisation
The All England Club has been plunged into turmoil by the departure of three senior directors and a move to sideline its chairman Ian Hewitt in the wake of the controversial decision to ban Russians and Belarusians from this year’s Wimbledon.
Despite hoping to continue in the role until 2024, 75-year-old Hewitt will have to put up with the election of a new vice-chairman who will run next year’s tournament alongside him before taking over sole charge of the board as soon as Wimbledon finishes.
After three years as the All England Club chairman, Hewitt’s accelerated exit is the latest domino in a series of events which began in April, with the original announcement of Russia ban.
The professional tours insisted that this was a discriminatory move and hit back by stripping the event of rankings points – an unprecedented and humiliating outcome for the club.
While the AELTC committee had originally supported the ban, an insider said that the club’s leadership had been guilty of “a combination of arrogance and naivety” in expecting the rest of the tennis world to accept the decision without demur.
Hewitt has been described by one associate as a deep thinker who finds it difficult to make decisions, which is hardly the hallmark of a dynamic chairman. Meanwhile Sally Bolton – who was promoted from the AELTC’s operations manager to its chief executive in 2020 – is also struggling to make an impression in her new role.
In further evidence of turmoil behind the facade, the AELTC has lost three of its seven directors over the three months since the end of this year’s tournament. Commercial director Gus Henderson’s departure was confirmed at the weekend, while Robert Deatker – the estates director – cleared his desk and left suddenly after returning from holiday in August.
While the explanation for Deatker’s exit remains unclear, his role involved working closely on the AELTC’s expansion into neighbouring Wimbledon Park Golf Course – another project that has run into complications owing to the hostility of the local community.
Both Wandsworth and Merton Councils are expected to consider the plans – which include a controversial 8,000-seat stadium – before Christmas, but there are reported to be as many as 14 local organisations lining up in opposition.
Whatever the merits or otherwise of the proposed development, the AELTC were slow off the mark in selling their vision to the affluent homeowners of SW19. By the time they realised that they needed to make a charm offensive, many had already decided against.
Jevans leading race to replace Hewitt but lack of leadership is stark
To a passer-by on Church Road, everything looks as serene as ever. The grand gates, with the legend “AELTC” picked out in gold lettering. The imposing clubhouse, wreathed in its costume of Virginia creeper.
And yet, within the confines of Wimbledon’s hallowed 42 acres, this is a turbulent time. Not only is the All England Club down to just four active directors, after a sudden slew of departures, but the committee are collectively ushering 75-year-old chairman Ian Hewitt towards the exit.
An organisation with a century-long history of probity and good management has come unstuck in the last year, amid accusations of arrogance, incompetence and internecine political squabbling. Most pressingly, its antiquated structures have been exposed as ill-equipped to run a thoroughly modern tournament which turns over more than £250 million per annum and accounted for almost 80 per cent of the Lawn Tennis Association’s income last year
The latest senior figure to leave SW19 is commercial director Gus Henderson, a former executive at Universal Music Group who had only been in position since May 2021.
That brought the number of high-profile departures in the last two months to three: Robert Deatker, the estates director, cleared his desk suddenly in August after coming back from holiday, while Alexandra Willis stepped down from her position as communications and marketing director to run the Premier League’s digital media business.
While Deatker’s post remains vacant, the other two roles are to be combined from Monday, when Usama Al-Qassab - who previously helped to launch the Disney+ streaming channel - is due to take over as marketing and commercial director. It is an important appointment after several recent mis-steps. However, the recent exodus means that Sally Bolton, the AELTC’s embattled chief executive, has only five directors left from the previous seven.
Meanwhile the race is on to take over from Hewitt, with Debbie Jevans – formerly director of sport for the 2012 London Olympics – well placed to become the club’s first female chairman.
But why is there so much ill-feeling sloshing around these pristine courts? There are two issues counting against the present regime.
First, the Russian ban. When the AELTC chose to exclude Russian and Belarusian players from Wimbledon this summer, it seemed like a bold but defensible stand – especially as the starting point had been a hefty nudge from the government.
Within a month, though, the professional tours had come back with the strongest rebuke they could muster – the elimination of rankings points. This extreme sanction was a sign of the AELTC’s friendlessness on the international stage.
Second, the golf course. In 2018, the AELTC spent £65m on annexing neighbouring Wimbledon Park Golf Club, which adds 73 more acres to the existing 42.
The club had originally hoped to earn approval for their development plans last year, but the community’s reaction has been more hostile than expected. Merton and Wandsworth Councils will both have to consider the plans, which include a controversial 8,000-seat stadium. They hope to give their initial response before Christmas, but that could only be the start. In June, prominent local opponent Christopher Coombe predicted that the whole saga would play out at great length: “five sets with a tie-breaker”.
These two issues might seem to have little in common, but there is a unifying theme. In both cases, the problem is not so much with the club’s policies, but the lack of smart or effective diplomacy surrounding them. As one employee of a rival grand slam put it, “They just think they can do what they want and everyone else will have to put up with it.”
While the impression is of an arrogant and out-of-touch organisation, this may partly be a misunderstanding based on communication failures. In person, neither Hewitt nor chief executive Sally Bolton – the duo who now run the club – could be described as headstrong or pushy. But neither has much experience of leadership, nor any strong alliances within the wider world of tennis.
Bolton, in particular, is a latecomer to the sport, and seems not to understand its niceties. In one press conference this summer, she appeared to be unaware of the effect that closing the Centre Court roof can have on playing conditions – and thus on the likely winner.
Hewitt – who took over the chairmanship from Philip Brook after the 2019 Championships – had hoped to oversee at least one normal Wimbledon during his term, despite the club convention that chairmen should leave the post no later than their 75th birthday. In 2020 the tournament was cancelled, in 2021 it ran at limited capacity, and in 2022 there were no Russians, Belarusians, nor rankings points.
While the committee will stop short of ousting Hewitt altogether, the AELTC annual general meeting – which is scheduled for early December – is likely to approve a vice-chairman who will take over next summer, thus limiting Hewitt’s influence in these final months, and dashing his hopes of continuing until 2024.
Most of the AELTC’s members would probably now accept that Hewitt – a convivial character who is a partner at the well-known City law firm of Freshfields Bruckhaus Deringer– is not a natural leader. But then, the constitution doesn’t leave many options open. The chairman has to be chosen from the committee, which consists of 12 people. This year, the main alternative to Jevans would seem to be Kevin Havelock, a former president at Unilever.
Until recently, the former Whitbread chairman Richard Baker was seen as a front-runner. But Baker is understood to have backed Havelock instead, as he is busy with his new private-equity business BD-Capital. With all the briefing, counter-briefing and intrigue behind the scenes, the process of appointing a new chairman can feel like the plot of an Agatha Christie novel, only without the body in the library.
Last time around, the succession debate was lengthy and chaotic. Hewitt’s victory owed much to a close bond with his predecessor, Brook. Telegraph Sport understands that Tim Henman, one of three former players on the committee, agonised over whether to throw his hat in the ring. But Henman has multiple endorsement deals with the likes of HSBC and Jaguar that he would have to give up if he were to take the role on, for fear of a conflict of interest.
What makes recruitment even more difficult is that the chairmanship is an unpaid role, despite demanding a commitment of perhaps 200 days per year. One AELTC insider also questioned whether Henman would have the stomach for the more mundane parts of the job. “You’ve got club members banging on your door and wanting to spend hours discussing the minutiae of the dress code. That’s not something a former athlete is used to putting up with.”
The AELTC’s options are limited both by the committee rule and the fact that the membership is relatively small. There are around 400 members in all but perhaps only a quarter of those are seen regularly at the club.
The constitution of the AELTC dates back to the club’s formation in 1868, when it was primarily associated with croquet rather than tennis. The stench of anachronism is overpowering. It all begs an obvious yet awkward question: how much longer can Britain’s biggest sporting event continue to be run in this way, with its ultimate authority – the chairman – picked from a tiny closed circle at a secretive private-members club?
The article is paywalled. Thanks to @Frainbart for gifting the article
by ponchi101 It is a private club. They are free to pick any of their internal mummies as chairman.
They are not free to bully people outside that circle. Admit the Russian/Belarusian ban was stupid, and admit them for next year.
by dryrunguy Arrogance has been Wimbledon's calling card for far too long. It goes far beyond and long precedes the ban. I'm fine with some comeuppance on this front.
by Deuce King Charles III has spoken!
His first major decision since being crowned.
by ponchi101 Reports that Rafa and Xisca had their kid.
A bit premature, it seems. Not to wonder, as she was having a complicated pregnancy. But it seems everything is alright.
by ti-amie
by ti-amie
Hola! magazine confirmed Rafa and Mery's baby had been born shortly after the news was broken by Majorcan paper Diario de Mallorca, saying: “Both the mum and her baby, born in the 37th week of her pregnancy, are doing well. The birth took place in a private clinic on the island where Mery had to remain under observation and rest completely in the last few weeks.”
by JTContinental Noah Rubin has announced his retirement from tennis, and is going to pursue professional pickleball.
by meganfernandez
JTContinental wrote: ↑Thu Oct 13, 2022 6:27 pm
Noah Rubin has announced his retirement from tennis, and is going to pursue professional pickleball.
Love that this is considered a "serious issue"... Querrey got pickled, too. The danger is, what is they don't succeed? Won't it be embarrassing? How can you be a top tennis player and then get beaten at a mini version by weekend warriors?
I know, some of the pro PB players are good athletes, like recent college tennis players. But still.
Things you'll never see Federer or Nadal do.
by Deuce This converting from tennis to pickleball in retirement risks becoming a popular trend.
The subject of pickleball is very popular these days... we hear of it being the 'fastest growing sport' in North America, high profile 'celebrities' are investing in it and creating teams (Lebron James, Tom Brady, etc.)...
Of course high profile players like Federer or Nadal would never convert to pro pickleball, because they'd have way too much to lose. Their reputations as tennis players stand above all others. That's what they want to be remembered by, obviously, and so won't risk that by venturing into any other sport as a pro.
And if ever they contemplate it for a moment, they need only think back to how Michael Jordan tarnished his reputation by trying to play pro baseball.
by 3mlm Kim Clijsters is investing as well:
Kim Clijsters is trading in her racquet for a paddle as she signs on as co-owner for Major League Pickleball alongside NFL star Tom Brady.
A rival league to the Professional Pickleball Association (PPA), Major League Pickleball launched in 2021 with 12 teams, and will expand to 16 as it plans to double its schedule in 2023.
LOS ANGELES, Oct. 11, 2022 – Tennis Channel has added to its schedule live coverage of a star-studded pickleball evening that will feature Tony Romo, Dirk Nowitzki, Jordan Spieth, Scottie Scheffler and John Isner, set for Thursday, Oct. 13, at 8 p.m. ET. Played during the Professional Pickleball Association’s PPA Tour Round Up in the Dallas area, the Celebrity Battle of the Paddle exhibition will showcase some of the biggest names in Texas sports and representatives from the worlds of top-level football, basketball, golf and tennis.
by ti-amie There was a commercial for something or another on MSNBC tonight that featured a group on its way to play pickleball.
by Deuce Pickleball's popularity is becoming scary.
As much as I enjoy playing pickleball - and I've enjoyed it more and more in each of the 4 years I've played - I could not tell you the name of even one pro pickleball player.
I don't watch any videos of it - live or even highlights. And whenever I've seen highlights of pro matches, it all seemed very amateurish compared to tennis.
by Fastbackss It's been airing frequently on tennis channel in the States.
I think it makes sense for the "2nd/3rd tier" players approaching retirement, even if they don't have huge success.
There is a ton of money being thrown at it, and it's "relatively" in its infancy. They can try to grab some of it. They can continue to be be professional athletes, have some income, and they don't have to leave the country.
by ponchi101 Pickle ball in the USA, Padel in the rest of the world.
Let's admit it. Tennis is too tough for most people, especially if you start later in life.
by meganfernandez
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 14, 2022 2:46 pm
Pickle ball in the USA, Padel in the rest of the world.
Let's admit it. Tennis is too tough for most people, especially if you start later in life.
Tennis is definitely harder to learn, harder to find people of the right level to play with, and is more time-consuming and expensive. I have no qualms with pickleball but I think people conflate it with tennis too much.
I'll be curious if padel takes off here - my guess is no. It's way more athletic than pickleball and requires special infrastructure. Americans will associate it with squash and racquetball, not pickleball. It might become a niche sport here, but it won't explode like it has in Europe or like PB has here. It's just not nearly as accessible and won't be as cheap to play as PB is.
by ti-amie
by ti-amie And someone responded asking about padel.
JTContinental wrote: ↑Thu Oct 13, 2022 6:27 pm
Noah Rubin has announced his retirement from tennis, and is going to pursue professional pickleball.
Love that this is considered a "serious issue"... Querrey got pickled, too. The danger is, what is they don't succeed? Won't it be embarrassing? How can you be a top tennis player and then get beaten at a mini version by weekend warriors?
I know, some of the pro PB players are good athletes, like recent college tennis players. But still.
Things you'll never see Federer or Nadal do.
The retirement was the serious part
For Rubin, he noted that his height was not ideal for tennis, but that the shorter courts neutralize that disadvantage of being short. I've never played pickleball, plus I'm 6'2", so I can't vouch.
by skatingfan
JTContinental wrote: ↑Fri Oct 14, 2022 10:08 pm
The retirement was the serious part
For Rubin, he noted that his height was not ideal for tennis, but that the shorter courts neutralize that disadvantage of being short. I've never played pickleball, plus I'm 6'2", so I can't vouch.
#humblebrag
by Deuce I've always considered squash and racquetball to be kamikaze sports - and crazy.
Lock yourself in a room with another person swinging a weapon wildly? No, thanks.
Not to mention the many video clips of players smashing through the glass doors and walls...
Padel is, of course, a similar idea, but probably slightly less dangerous, because you're more separated from your opponents. Still, I have absolutely no desire to try it. I don't like the idea of walls surrounding a court. Nor do I like the idea of balls - and people - bouncing off the walls.
I prefer to run free, without such restrictions.
by Deuce I never liked the Jensen brothers... I found them too loud and obnoxious - like they went to the Agassi school of "PLEASE LOOK AT ME!!!"
I just saw this short video, though. I had no idea that this happened until I just watched the video.
It's worth watching - especially for people who don't know that this near tragedy occurred...
by ti-amie Thank you for that Deuce.
by ponchi101 Just to be sure.
AED's DO NOT re-start a heart. AED's are used for something called fibrillation. That is when your heart is still beating BUT it does so arrhythmically, so it cannot pump blood properly because the ventricles and auricles are out of sync. The AED sends a simply electric pulse that puts everything back in phase. They are very easy to use, very safe, and have a huge success rate, if used early in any kind of fibrillating event.
The American Red Cross (and almost all Red Crosses or Red Crescent organizations in the world) offer one day courses for anybody. Highly recommended to learn to use.
If your heart has stopped, you need a much more complicated machine, which are the ones you see in dramatizations on TV. You need those shock delivery systems. An AED is NOT designed to do that.
Great video.
by ti-amie
by ti-amie
by meganfernandez Should this go in Random, or is there a doping thread?
by ponchi101 There is no doping topic. Here is fine.
I would side with her in the KNOWINGLY not taking the PED. But let's give it some time. As she says, let the truth come out. I wish the best for her.
by meganfernandez
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 2:46 pm
There is no doping topic. Here is fine.
I would side with her in the KNOWINGLY not taking the PED. But let's give it some time. As she says, let the truth come out. I wish the best for her.
Benefit of the doubt from me, too. However, I don't think ignorance is a defense in doping, right? Except in the court of public opinion.
by Owendonovan Is it really that impossible to be an elite athlete without taking some kind of supplement? How many times have these trusted coaches/trainers/physiotherapists/specialists given their athletes tainted supplements leading to suspensions? Now, I don't know if this is the case for Simona, but these kinds of doping cases are often tied to a supplement given to the athlete by someone in their camp.
by meganfernandez
Owendonovan wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 3:04 pm
Is it really that impossible to be an elite athlete without taking some kind of supplement? How many times have these trusted coaches/trainers/physiotherapists/specialists given their athletes tainted supplements leading to suspensions? Now, I don't know if this is the case for Simona, but these kinds of doping cases are often tied to a supplement given to the athlete by someone in their camp.
It can't be that hard to reach the top without an illegal supplement because most top players manage to do it. The vast majority of players are not busted for doping/illegal supplements.
by JTContinental The substance in question is a medication used to treat anemia for kidney dialysis patients, so I'm going to go on record as being a bit suspicious
by JazzNU Yikes! I knew it was a bad sign when I saw Tennis among the topics on the ESPN ticker when it wasn't earlier this morning so it couldn't be about say Coco qualifying for the WTA Finals.
I'm probably easier to persuade that she did this more than others will be because it has crossed my mind in the past how appreciably better she got years after she was on tour. But I was never actively suspicious of her and there are people I find far more suspicious with much more suspect trajectories so I never focused much on it with her.
If she's telling the truth, I hope she's able to get it down to a reasonable ban where she doesn't miss more than several months.
And even if she's guilty, I've said it before and I'll say it again, I do not like this guilty til proven innocent system where even those that are proven in the right in these cases suffer harsh consequences as a result of the initial findings. I wish there were at least more urgent timetables to handle these matters so players wouldn't miss so much time when they are able to reduce their bans.
by JazzNU
JTContinental wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 6:03 pm
The substance in question is a medication used to treat anemia for kidney dialysis patients, so I'm going to go on record as being a bit suspicious
Dayana Yastremska defense incoming?
by JazzNU FWIW, the drug is being referred by many on social media as EPO and they are saying this isn't kinda sorta suspicious, that it's straight up doping that cyclists are known for using. Those familiar with the drug are saying claiming you took it accidentally isn't a believable with this substance, so the it was in my sinus medication or in the beef I had for dinner doesn't appear to be a good defense for this one.
And even if she's guilty, I've said it before and I'll say it again, I do not like this guilty til proven innocent system where even those that are proven in the right in these cases suffer harsh consequences as a result of the initial findings. I wish there were at least more urgent timetables to handle these matters so players wouldn't miss so much time when they are able to reduce their bans.
It is one of the terrible consequences from the Court of Public Opinion. I hope you are right, although your following post throws considerable weight for the accusation, as well as the data that it is used for kidney/dialysis patients.
by dryrunguy
JazzNU wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 6:38 pm
Yikes! I knew it was a bad sign when I saw Tennis among the topics on the ESPN ticker when it wasn't earlier this morning so it couldn't be about say Coco qualifying for the WTA Finals.
I'm probably easier to persuade that she did this more than others will be because it has crossed my mind in the past how appreciably better she got years after she was on tour. But I was never actively suspicious of her and there are people I find far more suspicious with much more suspect trajectories so I never focused much on it with her.
If she's telling the truth, I hope she's able to get it down to a reasonable ban where she doesn't miss more than several months.
And even if she's guilty, I've said it before and I'll say it again, I do not like this guilty til proven innocent system where even those that are proven in the right in these cases suffer harsh consequences as a result of the initial findings. I wish there were at least more urgent timetables to handle these matters so players wouldn't miss so much time when they are able to reduce their bans.
Wasn't the major turning point in her career development and improved results directly related to her breast reduction surgery? That's how I remember it. I know that was well before she started winning slams. But it was after the breast reduction when she started going deeper into tournaments. Then the Slams came later.
JazzNU wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 6:38 pm
Yikes! I knew it was a bad sign when I saw Tennis among the topics on the ESPN ticker when it wasn't earlier this morning so it couldn't be about say Coco qualifying for the WTA Finals.
I'm probably easier to persuade that she did this more than others will be because it has crossed my mind in the past how appreciably better she got years after she was on tour. But I was never actively suspicious of her and there are people I find far more suspicious with much more suspect trajectories so I never focused much on it with her.
Wasn't the major turning point in her career development and improved results directly related to her breast reduction surgery? That's how I remember it. I know that was well before she started winning slams. But it was after the breast reduction when she started going deeper into tournaments. Then the Slams came later.
No, it wasn't. Maybe someone else would say yes to that though. But that's certainly what the narrative has been and has been given as the main reason so it's not strange that you or anyone would remember it that way. She had the breast reduction surgery when she was very young, like 16 or 17, so almost the conclusion of her junior career. A couple of years later, I would say around 2010 and 2011, she had made her way up the rankings, but top 100 trending towards top 50. That's what I thought she was going to be, a top 50 player with clay being where she was most valuable for Fantasy Tennis (the reason I remember her at all during this time). Then maybe two years later, almost out of nowhere, she caught like wildfire and didn't look back. I was shocked for sure. It struck me as odd at the time, but it can happen that way, so that's what I chalked it up to and hopefully, that's what it was.
Doesn't meant that her breast reduction surgery wasn't pivotal in an overall sense, she's basically said that it was. But the actual surgery and her reaching the top of women's tennis was not overnight, there's like 5 years between the surgery and when she caught fire.
by Deuce Yes - in other words, she did not enter the top 10 when she was 18 or 19, but took time to evolve and mature and develop.
Just like 90% of tennis players.
by Deuce Just to follow up on the subject with an article...
by Deuce From a guy who is under absolutely no obligation to say anything about the subject of Halep's supposed positive test, that is absolutely wonderful.
Everyone should be so fortunate to have a character witness who steps up like Cahill has done here.
Bravo.
by JazzNU
JazzNU wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:07 pm
FWIW, the drug is being referred by many on social media as EPO and they are saying this isn't kinda sorta suspicious, that it's straight up doping that cyclists are known for using. Those familiar with the drug are saying claiming you took it accidentally isn't a believable with this substance, so the it was in my sinus medication or in the beef I had for dinner doesn't appear to be a good defense for this one.
I'm not familiar with the specific drug Simona tested positive for, nor am I familiar with this EPO that it is linked to. So if anyone else is in the same boat as me, just thought I would further elaborate since I've seen more info since the announcement.
EPO stands for Erythropoietin and the way I keep seeing it described, it gives the athletes more oxygen to perform. The drug that Halep tested positive for stimulates EPO. Like I mentioned before, cyclists have been dinged for EPO. And not a good association for Halep at all, but underscores the performance advantage that it can give and probably the way it is viewed by anti-doping authorities - it was one of the main drugs used in Lance Armstrong's extensive doping program.
YIKES!
by ashkor87 I am sure I will get zero support on this forum but..
Maybe the rules have become so complicated it is time to either scrap them all or become terribly strict ..nothing is allowed or everything is allowed..I would certainly go for the latter...whether all this doping really gives someone an unfair advantage, is unclear to me. If athletes want to pay games with their own bodies, let them..
.ask Djokovic!!
by meganfernandez
ashkor87 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 25, 2022 8:26 am
I am sure I will get zero support on this forum but..
Maybe the rules have become so complicated it is time to either scrap them all or become terribly strict ..nothing is allowed or everything is allowed..I would certainly go for the latter...whether all this doping really gives someone an unfair advantage, is unclear to me. If athletes want to pay games with their own bodies, let them..
.ask Djokovic!!
I kinda like it. The old F-it response. Sometimes I wonder why it matters if you're getting strong from spinach or from a pill... But none of us are 100% natural, and there are plenty of other "unfair advantages" that we easily accept.
by ponchi101 Yes. We could go that way (or the athletes could).
But remember the good ol' days of the USSR and Chinese competitors, in which athletes were forced to take or fed PED's without their knowledge. Also, some of these PED's, if not most, come with other dangers to the athletes' health, further down the road in their lives. Last, they are not cheap; another further advantage to the wealthy athletes, or those from countries where such PED's are more easily accessible. For example, I really do not think that Camila or Galan would easily find any PED's here in Colombia, other than coffee or coke.
It is a thin line.
---0---
About Cahill: the man is good people. As expressed above, no need for him to come forward with such a statement. Yet, he did. The decent thing to do.
by ashkor87 Djokovic has proven that taking nothing, not even aspirin nor vaccines, is best for the body! Can anyone argue with his success?
by ponchi101 No.
But you are looking at one person. Other players have needed some medication. I remember that one time, some data leaked for some top players, Serena included. Well, she needed some medication that was approved by the tour. And arguing about her success is also not possible.
I believe Kvitova takes medication for her asthma?
We all are a bit different. I, for example, need to take a small dose of Propanolol every day, for something called "an essential tremor". (My left hand shakes a bit if I don't). Of course, I am not a pro, and this would not affect my everyday life in a terrible way (my handwriting is already terrible), but taking it makes it better.
If Novak can live without taking anything, great for him. I also believe that Roger is the same. And most players. But some need something.
by ti-amie Does Djokovic still use that hyperbaric chamber-like thing?
by JazzNU
ti-amie wrote: ↑Wed Oct 26, 2022 4:45 pm
Does Djokovic still use that hyperbaric chamber-like thing?
That's exactly what came to mind when I saw the comment about him taking "nothing." WADA has needed to allow or ban hyperbaric chambers for the Olympics in the past, so hardly a non-factor. And Novak has traveled with his chamber in the past, which is no small feat if you've seen one, so he uses it a good amount.
He also had a nose surgery to improve his breathing that wasn't necessary to live his life as a non-athlete, but would give him an edge as an athlete.
by ti-amie It's amazing how his use of this apparatus is ignored not only by his stans but by tennis media.
by JazzNU
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 25, 2022 2:57 pm
Yes. We could go that way (or the athletes could).
But remember the good ol' days of the USSR and Chinese competitors, in which athletes were forced to take or fed PED's without their knowledge. Also, some of these PED's, if not most, come with other dangers to the athletes' health, further down the road in their lives. Last, they are not cheap; another further advantage to the wealthy athletes, or those from countries where such PED's are more easily accessible. For example, I really do not think that Camila or Galan would easily find any PED's here in Colombia, other than coffee or coke.
It is a thin line.
Unless it's in the meat, which is unintentional on the athlete's part. There have been more than a few overturned bans associated with PEDs in contaminated meat in South America, Colombia included (just look at Farah).
And East Germany can get added to that list of countries that forced PED use that harmed their future health.
by ponchi101 I had forgotten about East Germany. They were the very worst. Txs.
by JTContinental
ti-amie wrote: ↑Wed Oct 26, 2022 4:45 pm
Does Djokovic still use that hyperbaric chamber-like thing?
Does he still drink only magic Serbian water?
by ti-amie
by ponchi101 How on earth can that be healthy?
I really think sometimes that some of these ideas are insane. How can subjecting you to -210 (and I hope it is F°) can be good for your body?
by Deuce I don't know about the benefits of that for athletes...
I mean, if it was truly beneficial, we'd be seeing a lot more elite athletes from Alaska, Greenland, and Siberia, no?
by ti-amieThe Disarray of the WTA
Money problems, shifting venues and a costly dispute with China have left the tour looking for answers — and a financial lifeline.
By Cindy Shmerler
Oct. 29, 2022
As the women’s professional tennis season draws to a close this week, with the WTA Finals in Fort Worth, it’s fair to call this a Dickensian year — the best of times, the worst of times.
Rarely since the founding of the WTA Tour in 1973 has the women’s game experienced as much tumult as it did in 2022. There were enormous highs and shattering lows, much to be proud of and plenty to be concerned about.
“This was certainly a year filled with challenges in the women’s game. Not only did we lose an anchor when the established No. 1 retired, but doing business hasn’t been easy in this post-Covid world,” Pam Shriver, a former player who once ranked No. 3 in the world and served as the president of the WTA Tour Players’ Association, said, referring to the departure of Ashleigh Barty.
After two years of pandemic-related interruptions and protocols, the tour welcomed fans back unconditionally to arenas worldwide. Players once again signed giant tennis balls courtside and threw their sweaty wristbands into eager crowds. The enthusiasm at late-night matches in New York and Miami reminded athletes just how much they had missed that raucous interaction.
There was pomp and emotion when Serena Williams left the game after the United States Open. Williams, a transformative figure on and off the court, won 23 major championships over her 27-year career. She has already hinted at a possible comeback in 2023.
There were also tender moments, such as when Barty won the Australian Open in January and became the first Aussie, man or woman, to win the title since 1978. But then, about two months later, Barty abruptly announced her retirement, leaving the game momentarily rudderless.
Iga Swiatek proved to be a willing successor. The now-21-year-old won 37 consecutive matches from February through June, including at top-tier events at Indian Wells, Miami, Rome and the French Open. By the fall, she had added her second major of the year at the U.S. Open. Swiatek heads into the WTA Finals with eight titles on the season, the most since Serena Williams won 11 in 2013.
Swiatek was also outspoken. She was one of the first to speak out about mental health issues in the tennis world and against the war in Ukraine. She also donated prize money to organizations dedicated to both causes.
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Swiatek also showed her persnickety side this season, as she complained about the quality of the tennis balls used at various tournaments and about the scheduling at the end of the season, which she said was arduous. Swiatek even declined to represent her native Poland in the Billie Jean King Cup because, she said, it would be too difficult to travel to Glasgow a week after the WTA Finals in Texas.
Swiatek is returning to the year-end championships for the second time. Last year, she was eliminated before the semifinals. Also returning this year are Aryna Sabalenka, Maria Sakkari, a semifinalist last year, and Caroline Garcia, while the newcomers include Ons Jabeur, Jessica Pegula, Coco Gauff and Daria Kasatkina.
The most notable player left out of the event is Elena Rybakina, this year’s Wimbledon champion, who would have qualified if the WTA had awarded rankings points for that tournament. Both the WTA and its counterpart on the men’s side, the ATP, declined to do so when Wimbledon banned Russian and Belarusian players from competing this year.
The fact that the WTA Finals are being held in Texas, rather than in China, is yet another point of contention. The tournament was supposed to be played in Shenzhen, as it was in 2019, when China made a $500 million investment in women’s tennis, including $14 million in prize money for the year-end championships. The plan was for the tournament to be staged there every year until 2028.
But in 2020, the tournament was canceled because of the pandemic. Then, last December, Peng Shuai, a Chinese tennis star at the time, posted a social media message in which she accused a high-ranking Chinese government official of sexual assault. Steve Simon, the WTA chairman and chief executive, unable to meet with Peng and ensure her safety, announced the suspension of all women’s events in China.
It took Micky Lawler, the WTA president, months to secure an alternate venue for the Finals, which were temporarily moved to Guadalajara, Mexico, last year. This year, after much consideration, the WTA chose the 14,000-seat Dickies Arena in Fort Worth as the venue, less than two months before the tournament. All the costs, including fees and prize money for the eight singles competitors and eight doubles teams, are being absorbed by the WTA.
But the biggest issue in women’s tennis now is financial stability. Despite the WTA adding Hologic as a title sponsor earlier this year, the loss of revenue from China has forced the tour to operate at a deficit all season. Earlier this year, Saudi Arabia tried to step in and make an investment, similar to the one that it made in men’s golf in the form of the LIV tour, but it was rebuffed.
To rebuild its financial house, the WTA is set to announce that CVC Capital Partners, a private equity firm based in Luxembourg, is investing $150 million over the next five years to hold a 20 percent stake in the tour.
Simon, the WTA chairman and chief executive, declined to be interviewed about the deal, saying in an emailed statement, “The WTA can confirm we are in exclusive discussions with CVC Capital Partners regarding a strategic agreement, which would strengthen women’s tennis and support the ambitious growth of the tour.”
Much of that money would go toward equalizing prize money between the WTA and the ATP.
Wimbledon and the Australian, French and U.S. Opens offer equal prize money to men and women, as do major combined tournaments in Indian Wells and Miami. But in Rome, for example, even though the men and women play side by side, Novak Djokovic, the men’s champion last year, earned almost $900,000 while women’s winner Swiatek took home less than half that.
“In Miami, equality is a given,” said James Blake, a former player and the current tournament director for the Miami Open. “It’s goes back to Venus [Williams] when she fought for equal prize money at Wimbledon. We also have equal time for men and women on the show courts, equal practice courts, even equal locker rooms. I’m very proud of that.
“The men may be a bigger draw right now, but the women might be next year,” Blake added. “We need to all work together equally. A rising tide raises all of the ships.”
Simon has been the chief executive of the WTA Tour since 2015. Assuming that the deal with CVC goes through, Lawler, the WTA president, said that he would remain chairman of the WTA Tour and she would stay on as president. But CVC will add its own executive, another administrative position in an organization than can sometimes resemble a seven-layer cake. Since its inception in 1973, two women, Anne Person Worcester and Stacey Allaster, have served as chief executives of the WTA.
Lawler said the deal with CVC wasn’t all about prize money distribution.
“It is important that we invest in our own assets, such as content and broadcast production,” she said. “They drive the overall value of the sport for all of our stakeholders. As far as technology, we have seen innovation in areas such as ball and athlete tracking. If we add these data points to the data output from the umpire’s chair, we are able to produce deep match insights. Both our athletes and fans expect us to tell stories with every tool available.”
Even for the players, prize money is only part of the equation.
“We’re a group of individual athletes that has to be brought together to find commonality,” said Bethanie Mattek-Sands, a doubles specialist and a former member of the WTA Players’ Council. “Prize money is still a huge issue, since we all have to pay our bills. We have to reconfirm the way we distribute it.
“But just as important is how we elevate the brand and make the game sustainable for the future,” she said. “We are a very small share in the world of entertainment. We compete for airtime with the NFL, pickleball and cornhole.
ti-amie wrote: ↑Sun Oct 30, 2022 7:12 pm
...
It took Micky Lawler, the WTA president, months to secure an alternate venue for the Finals, which were temporarily moved to Guadalajara, Mexico, last year.
...
That is blatantly not true. During last year's Finals, here in L. America the promoters and organizers were interviewed. They made it very clear that the moment they heard the finals were looking for a new venue, they raised their hands. It took the WTA months to say yes, but it was not as if the Guadalajara option was not open very early on.
by ti-amie Thanks for the clarification Ponchi. I also find it interesting that Clarey didn't write this article since he is usually the person who writes tennis articles.
by meganfernandez
ti-amie wrote: ↑Sun Oct 30, 2022 10:07 pm
Thanks for the clarification Ponchi. I also find it interesting that Clarey didn't write this article since he is usually the person who writes tennis articles.
Might have been Cindy's pitch, which they would have to honor if they wanted the story - can't say to a freelancer, "great idea, thanks, we'll write it in house!" She might have had a key interview in the bag, too. And/or she's on site at the Finals stringing for the Times or some else and had the access. That's my best guess for why she wrote it. Also, Clarey might have been on vacation or busy with other stuff. Just some insight into division of labor and assignment-making.
ti-amie wrote: ↑Sun Oct 30, 2022 7:12 pm
...
It took Micky Lawler, the WTA president, months to secure an alternate venue for the Finals, which were temporarily moved to Guadalajara, Mexico, last year.
...
That is blatantly not true. During last year's Finals, here in L. America the promoters and organizers were interviewed. They made it very clear that the moment they heard the finals were looking for a new venue, they raised their hands. It took the WTA months to say yes, but it was not as if the Guadalajara option was not open very early on.
It says it took months to SECURE a venue, not to find options. Working through the options is a different matter. I don't see a mistake or anything misleading. Not to open a can of worms on reporting and editing, but that's my read of it.
by ponchi101 The wording is what I don't agree with. They could have "secured" the venue easily if they had accepted Guadalajara's bid when it came in. It was, after all, an emergency situation.
Also, during last year's Finals, and in the same interview I am talking about, the managers of Guadalajara made it clear they were ready to provide a better stadium and facilities IF they could get a long term contract for the event.
But I guess Ft. Worth had more pull. We will see the quality of the event and then we can say which choice was better.
That's difficult to watch.
Apart from the obvious objection to what is shown, I question the people watching and recording it - especially the man who yells out. Why didn't they run over and stop the idiot rather than allowing it to continue?
Of course, I don't know what the physical arrangement was at that facility - but there doesn't seem to be a high fence or any type of barrier between the people recording it and the incident playing out. In any case, I would hope that anyone witnessing such a thing would do whatever they could to get over there to stop it - even if they have to grab something like a rake to use as a weapon against the jerk.
Who is that and has that man been reported for child abuse/assault?
by ponchi101 Sorry. That has nothing to do with the ITF or tennis. That was a CRIME being filmed.
That man does not have to face the "justice of tennis". He must face the justice of his country (I have no idea where they are).
THEN, the ITF can ban him for life.
by ti-amie The incident in the video took place in Belgrade but the father and daughter are apparently Chinese.
The First Municipal Public Prosecutor's Office in Belgrade reacted to the brutal violence that was published on social networks, where a father can be seen physically abusing his daughter on the tennis court.
In cooperation with the inspectors of the Palilula Police Station and the Department for Foreigners, the identity of the participants of the event was determined, in fact, that they were Chinese citizens with temporary residence in Serbia.
Bearing in mind that the father, who is suspected of having committed the crime of domestic violence, is not available to the state authorities, a search warrant was issued by order of the deputy on duty.
When and if he is found, the prosecutor's office will immediately take the necessary measures with the aim of further processing, about which the public will be informed.
Source: Potraga za Kinezom koji je zverski tukao ćerku! Šokantan snimak sa teniskih terena uzbunuio Tužilaštvo (video)
Badosa, Azarenka, as seen above Judy Murray, and Iga's psychologist have all weighed in.
by Deuce Some more details about the above video, including reports of the father's arrest, here in this article...
by JTContinental Sorry, my post was a repeat of one above, so deleting...
by ponchi101 Well, one thing in which this man is correct: that is ALLOWED in China. There is indeed a cultural difference between Chinese culture and the rest in how to treat women, which reaches into this extreme.
Now, he is not in China. So I hope that they investigate, because rest assured that the wife at home also gets abused on a regular basis (and will not say anything to the police), and that then they throw him in prison for the maximum stated by Serbian laws. And make sure that he gets a lengthy probation because, once he is released, he will abuse his daughter again.
by ti-amie
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 2:01 pm
Well, one thing in which this man is correct: that is ALLOWED in China. There is indeed a cultural difference between Chinese culture and the rest in how to treat women, which reaches into this extreme.
Now, he is not in China. So I hope that they investigate, because rest assured that the wife at home also gets abused on a regular basis (and will not say anything to the police), and that then they throw him in prison for the maximum stated by Serbian laws. And make sure that he gets a lengthy probation because, once he is released, he will abuse his daughter again.
Yes because it's her fault for getting him into trouble. If she hadn't been disobedient...
by ti-amie
by ti-amie
by ti-amie
by JazzNU I hope that Tennis Channel sticks around as it currently is. Remember what it was like when WTA was off in Siberia (BeIN)? Not wanting a repeat of that.
But if Netflix or Amazon (they do tennis coverage in UK) could get the streaming rights from TC Plus, that would be wonderful.
by JazzNU
Novak Djokovic leaves no stone unturned in pursuit of greatness, but secrecy with drink mixture draws scrutiny
By Matias Grez, CNN
In his pursuit of greatness, it has been well documented that Novak Djokovic has left no stone unturned.
From changing his diet to incorporating meditation into his training, the Serb is constantly trying to find that extra edge to improve his chances on the tennis court.
His latest efforts, however, have drawn criticism.
In a video posted on social media, Djokovic’s physio Ulises Badio is seen preparing a drink in the stands during Saturday’s semifinal win over Stefanos Tsitsipas at the Paris Masters.
Badio is then shielded by two other men as he finishes preparing the drink, before handing it to a ball girl to pass onto Djokovic.
The incident has been described as looking “amazingly dodgy” and “bizarre” by two journalists on Twitter.
However, Djokovic’s wife Jelena has launched a vigorous defense of the 21-time grand slam champion on social media.
“I don’t see anything dodgy,” Jelena Djokovic wrote in one reply. “In fact, I see people trying to be private about their business in a world where everyone feels like they have every right to point a camera at you whenever they want.
“Apparently, wanting/trying to be private makes you dodgy nowadays.”
“Sit a bit in silence’
In one Twitter interaction, a user suggested Djokovic hire a PR agency to help avoid these types of backlash, an idea which was given short shrift from the tennis star’s wife.
“He will talk when he is ready to talk,” Jelena replied. “This whole nonsense about making people speak about something they are not ready because OTHERS are unpatient (sic) is absurd.
“Sit a bit in silence. Mind yourself more. Not everything you see is controversial. It could be private. Is that allowed?”
Djokovic was eventually defeated by unseeded Danish teenager Holger Rune 3-6 6-3 7-5 in the final of the Paris Masters.
It’s not the first time Djokovic has drawn curiosity over a drinks bottle.
During his victorious Wimbledon run earlier this year, Djokovic was seen inhaling from a drinks bottle. When questioned about it in the post-match press conference, the world No. 8 laughed it off and said it was a “magic potion.”
“It’s going to come out as one of the supplement, let’s say, lines that I’m doing right now with drink and a few other things,” he said.
“You’ll try it and you’ll let me know how it feels. You might win Wimbledon.”
by JazzNU ^^ Hadn't heard about this, but it was on CNN of all places when I just happened to be in the app.
If you want to read the full article, click the link. There's additional information about the Aussie Open that is already known by most tennis fans that is unrelated to the drink story.
by skatingfan I saw the think about the drink - seems like much ado about nothing in that trainers mix drinks for players in the stands & hand them over to the ball kids on a regular basis - particularly if the match is extended. As to the secrecy of the drink I wonder if that's just Nole playing with the media - it created a story.
Novak Djokovic leaves no stone unturned in pursuit of greatness, but secrecy with drink mixture draws scrutiny
By Matias Grez, CNN
In his pursuit of greatness, it has been well documented that Novak Djokovic has left no stone unturned.
From changing his diet to incorporating meditation into his training, the Serb is constantly trying to find that extra edge to improve his chances on the tennis court.
His latest efforts, however, have drawn criticism.
In a video posted on social media, Djokovic’s physio Ulises Badio is seen preparing a drink in the stands during Saturday’s semifinal win over Stefanos Tsitsipas at the Paris Masters.
Badio is then shielded by two other men as he finishes preparing the drink, before handing it to a ball girl to pass onto Djokovic.
The incident has been described as looking “amazingly dodgy” and “bizarre” by two journalists on Twitter.
However, Djokovic’s wife Jelena has launched a vigorous defense of the 21-time grand slam champion on social media.
“I don’t see anything dodgy,” Jelena Djokovic wrote in one reply. “In fact, I see people trying to be private about their business in a world where everyone feels like they have every right to point a camera at you whenever they want.
“Apparently, wanting/trying to be private makes you dodgy nowadays.”
“Sit a bit in silence’
In one Twitter interaction, a user suggested Djokovic hire a PR agency to help avoid these types of backlash, an idea which was given short shrift from the tennis star’s wife.
“He will talk when he is ready to talk,” Jelena replied. “This whole nonsense about making people speak about something they are not ready because OTHERS are unpatient (sic) is absurd.
“Sit a bit in silence. Mind yourself more. Not everything you see is controversial. It could be private. Is that allowed?”
Djokovic was eventually defeated by unseeded Danish teenager Holger Rune 3-6 6-3 7-5 in the final of the Paris Masters.
It’s not the first time Djokovic has drawn curiosity over a drinks bottle.
During his victorious Wimbledon run earlier this year, Djokovic was seen inhaling from a drinks bottle. When questioned about it in the post-match press conference, the world No. 8 laughed it off and said it was a “magic potion.”
“It’s going to come out as one of the supplement, let’s say, lines that I’m doing right now with drink and a few other things,” he said.
“You’ll try it and you’ll let me know how it feels. You might win Wimbledon.”
For someone who wants everyone to like and love him he's always doing something dodgy to make fans side eye him. And Jelena doesn't help matters.
by ponchi101 As long as he passes his doping tests....
by meganfernandez
skatingfan wrote: ↑Fri Nov 11, 2022 12:40 am
I saw the think about the drink - seems like much ado about nothing in that trainers mix drinks for players in the stands & hand them over to the ball kids on a regular basis - particularly if the match is extended. As to the secrecy of the drink I wonder if that's just Nole playing with the media - it created a story.
Yeah, the actual mixing of the drink was nothing. Everyone does that. As far as the weird secrecy, Wertheim cited several good reasons they might have wanted to be discreet - like if they weren't using Evian, the water sponsor. Also, the idea that they were doping is silly - right out there in the open!
skatingfan wrote: ↑Fri Nov 11, 2022 12:40 am
I saw the think about the drink - seems like much ado about nothing in that trainers mix drinks for players in the stands & hand them over to the ball kids on a regular basis - particularly if the match is extended. As to the secrecy of the drink I wonder if that's just Nole playing with the media - it created a story.
Yeah, the actual mixing of the drink was nothing. Everyone does that. As far as the weird secrecy, Wertheim cited several good reasons they might have wanted to be discreet - like if they weren't using Evian, the water sponsor. Also, the idea that they were doping is silly - right out there in the open!
^ Yes and yes.
And the 'secrecy' could also be because they don't want other players (or members of their teams) to know what they are mixing in, for fear that some of them may try it, as well. If they feel it gives Novak a certain (legal) advantage, they're obviously not going to be openly sharing it with everyone.
This just smells like the media creating a problem where none exists - as the media tend to do.
As ponchi says, the players undergo drug/doping tests - and as far as we know, Djokovic has never been caught using any illegal substance.
It could be another Lance Armstrong situation, with loads of people covering for him... but, realistically, that's more than highly improbable.
by ti-amie
by Deuce ^ ... and people around the world - including in so-called 'advanced' and 'civilized' countries - continue to starve because they have no food, and continue to have no structure to call home.
But, hey - as long as the rich - who, for some reason, are people's heroes - keep getting richer, amassing so much money that they cannot possibly spend it all, everyone can pretend that all is fine, right?
Rather than seeking that the money for the WTA gets increased to the level of the ATP, the better position would be that the ATP decrease the money to the level of the WTA.
Because what all of them - men and women - are paid is obscene, when one considers that there are millions of people starving in the world.
There is more than enough money in the world so that every person can eat and have a home. The problem is certainly not the lack of money. The problem is the extremely selfish way that the money is distributed.
When we miss a few shots - especially routine shots -, it often 'snowballs'. Simon touches on the reason in one of the sentences above when he says that when things are going well, we don't even think about hitting the ball.
That's the key - to NOT THINK. To simply go with our natural instincts.
He mentions that people tend to focus on technique when things are going badly. That requires thinking. And that almost always doesn't work - and just ends up making the situation worse (it snowballs).
It's like eating. We enjoy eating and tasting our food the most when we don't think about the eating process. If we start to think about what we're doing technically - the chewing, the swallowing, etc. - it generally ruins the pleasure of eating.
by ti-amie
by ti-amie The only people who didn't see that Fritz' argument makes sense are the people who run tennis.
The rest of Rothenberg's tweet thread:
Ben Rothenberg
@BenRothenberg
Replying to
@BenRothenberg
So many Tennis Channel employees have been roped into doing cringeworthy Draft Kings promo work on air. Many of them also have other roles in the sport. Will they also be accountable for that?
by ti-amie
by Deuce I've seen James Blake in TV commercials for a gambling/betting site that focuses on tennis...
Here in Canada, current and former NHL hockey players do TV commercials for gambling/betting entities.
I said a year or two ago that legalized gambling/betting will ruin pro sports as we know it. I stand by that.
There are FAR, FAR more negative elements to gambling than there are positive elements. And that's not even including that organized crime is often involved.
by ti-amie Blake was mentioned in a reply by a fan. Terrible, terrible optics.
by ponchi101 One of the sponsors for the Nadal/Ruud exo is a local online gambling site.
On ESPN, at leas 90% of all commercials are gambling sites. Not unusual to have 5-6 straight commercials that are gambling sites.
Give these poor people a break. You have to launder all that drug money somehow!
by ti-amie
by ti-amie More on the Simona Halep doping issue. Translated from Romanian by Google
Turnaround in the doping case in which Simona Halep is accused! The Romanian woman has an explanation for the positive doping test at the US Open: investigative agents and bio-pharmacological experts used the "Nutrition Genome" method! | EXCLUSIVE
Publicat: 03 12. 2022, 14:34
Ilie Pavel
The French agency of toxicology and pharmacology employed by Simona Halep identified the sources of contamination that caused the presence of the drug Roxadustat in the only positive test taken by Simona on August 29 after the match lost in the first round at the US Open.
Produced and packaged in a pharmaceutical factory, in the nutritional supplements used by Simona Halep, accidental sources of compounds were identified that exceed the purity criteria of the substances listed on the labels of the vitamin and mineral products administered by the Romanian athlete.
The composition, manufacturing characteristics, presentation and labeling of the supplements are non-compliant and have essentially altered the products ingested by Halep. Investigative agents and bio-pharmacological experts tested in the specialized centers accredited by the Laboratoire Antidopage Français (LADF) the products used by Halep including through the "Nutrition Genome", a method that reveals the nutrigenomic analysis: the response of Simona's body to nutrients (the relationship between her specific genes and nutrition , own metabolism, living environment and competition as well as individual predispositions).
Reversal of the situation in the doping case in which Simona Halep is accused
Laboratory results reveal minimal presence of Roxadustat as a metabolite or marker source in Halep's urine sample taken at the United States National Tennis Center (USTA) laboratory in Flushing Meadows, New York. Additional investigations are in accordance with the International Standard for Laboratories and the technical documents attest to the presence of Roxadustat as a prohibited substance but which is not specified on the product label or in the information accessible through a reasonable search on the Internet (the online identification engines provided by WADA , "World Anti-Doping Agency" for finding prohibited products possibly existing in nutritional supplements used by athletes).
Laboratory research shows the risks in the production line (preparation, weighing and control-reception) and the contamination of the products ingested by Halep. Risk assessment is, however, Simona's responsibility in the case of non-prescription nutritional supplements.
Based on these documents certified by French molecular toxicologists, Halep asked the "International Tennis Integrity Agency" for an emergency summary hearing to take place before the witness statements at
Timeline of Simona Halep's tests and how nutritional supplements are made
Simona Halep passed the test carried out on August 26, 2022, three days before she "failed" the doping control after the lost match with Daria Snegur in the 1st round of the US Open. Moreover, Simona came out "negative" in the test carried out in Bucharest immediately after returning from New York.
The way nutritional supplements are made is different from the way drugs are made. Production control is distinct, nutritional supplements are not subject to the same rigors and there is a risk of the appearance in their composition of prohibited substances, not labeled in the prospectus. The risk that an athlete consumes such a supplement and comes out "positive" is very high, and the World Anti-Doping Agency sends very clear messages by which it does not authorize the use of these products that may contain prohibited substances.
Most of the time, contaminations are on anabolic steroids, androgens and stimulants. Anabolic and androgenic steroids are substances
with very serious side effects on health.
by Deuce I wish they would have the balls to fine them a significant amount that would actually do some damage and discourage similar actions in the future...
This fine is nothing but a public relations move to fool people into believing that they're actually punishing the LTA.
There's far too much of this BS going on in various elements of society - 'punishments' of seemingly large dollar figures designed to impress people, but when the dollar figures are put in context, they are shown to be quite minimal.
Because it was Cirstea I almost didn't read the article but the comment below is the cause of a lot of argument among WTA fans especially now with Iga at #1 and unknown outside of tennis circles. I haven't seen the same debate about ATP players except as it relates to Djokovic.
The 32-year-old, formerly sponsored by Adidas, said American, Chinese, Japanese and British players are the best-paid, but "Eastern Europe doesn't really sell."
by ponchi101 For those that forgot.
When Hingis was switching from Tacchini to (eventually) Adidas, she was offered a contract that was less than Kournikova's. Hingis, reportedly, was furious; she was world #1 and was obviously ranked higher than Anna.
"Yes, but you are not Anna Kournikova" was Adidas' reply.
It is a BUSINESS. It is not a lesson on morality or fairness.
by Owendonovan It's marketing, that's all, don't take it personally.
by Deuce Why should we accept the pitifully low standard of 'marketing' and 'business' placing financial profit above respect, decency, and all else?
Why should we accept that business and ethics are mutually exclusive, never to combine?
The businesses I respect are the ethical ones.
Would you guys still say that it's just 'business' or just 'marketing', and shouldn't be taken personally if, instead of the subject being one's physical appearance, it was skin colour or sexual preference? If white people were advantaged over blacks, Hispanics, etc. by sponsors? Or if straight people were advantaged over gay people?
I doubt it.
The acceptance of this garbage with a mere shrug of the shoulders is in large part responsible for humanity being in such dire straits.
Indifference and apathy don't improve the status quo - they just encourage it. We need to employ higher standards if we want to see improvement and true progression.
Because it was Cirstea I almost didn't read the article but the comment below is the cause of a lot of argument among WTA fans especially now with Iga at #1 and unknown outside of tennis circles. I haven't seen the same debate about ATP players except as it relates to Djokovic.
The 32-year-old, formerly sponsored by Adidas, said American, Chinese, Japanese and British players are the best-paid, but "Eastern Europe doesn't really sell."
Easy to understand ..those are big, lucrative markets..Eastern Europe isn't, though that is where most of the stars come from!
by Owendonovan
Deuce wrote: ↑Sun Dec 11, 2022 4:10 am
Why should we accept the pitifully low standard of 'marketing' and 'business' placing financial profit above respect, decency, and all else?
Why should we accept that business and ethics are mutually exclusive, never to combine?
The businesses I respect are the ethical ones.
Would you guys still say that it's just 'business' or just 'marketing', and shouldn't be taken personally if, instead of the subject being one's physical appearance, it was skin colour or sexual preference? If white people were advantaged over blacks, Hispanics, etc. by sponsors? Or if straight people were advantaged over gay people?
I doubt it.
The acceptance of this garbage with a mere shrug of the shoulders is in large part responsible for humanity being in such dire straits.
Indifference and apathy don't improve the status quo - they just encourage it. We need to employ higher standards if we want to see improvement and true progression.
You're not recognizing my cynicism.
by JTContinental Boris Becker has been released from prison after serving 8 months.
by ti-amie
by ponchi101 I would start the search for a second nationality. And, after getting it, burn that Russian Passport. I would not go back to Moscow if I were her.
by ti-amie I worry about her family though...
by ponchi101 Without say. Putin's regime would not mind one bit doing something to them. So get them out of Russia too.
by Deuce Kasatkina's a sweetie. I had some fun and laughs with her and her coach Carlos Martinez this past summer when talking about (and swinging) an old Head Vilas wood racquet.
She's very down to Earth, and loves to laugh and joke.
I hope she finds a way to stand up for what she believes in and what she wants to do while at the same time making sure that she and her family are safe.
Easier said than done, though...
by ti-amie
by Deuce This appears to be a positive and concrete initiative.
It's difficult with these kinds of things, though, as, realistically, for every 1 kid who is accepted, there are probably 100 or more who are not accepted, and that rejection can be crushing...
by Deuce A couple of interesting articles relating to Russian tennis players - Kasatkina in particular -, the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and the Wimbledon ban of Russian and Belarusian players...
Martina Navratilova: Tennis legend diagnosed with throat and breast cancer
by ponchi101 The article says the throat cancer is at stage 1. That is "good" news, in the sense that there are no good news related to cancer, but stage 1 is obviously early.
Having said that, throat cancer is one of the very worse ones. I hope she will make it.
by JTContinental She says her prognosis is good, which is promising, but wishing Martina the best on this latest health journey.
by ti-amie Wasn't this predicted?
by ti-amie
by ponchi101
ti-amie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:54 pm
Wasn't this predicted?
Like by... everybody in this forum (starting in TAT1.0).
Let it die. It makes no sense to play it unless there is some real national involvement. Let it be a thing of lore.
"Back in the middle ages, some men would get together to compete for national pride. In those obscure times..."
ti-amie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:54 pm
Wasn't this predicted?
Like by... everybody in this forum (starting in TAT1.0).
Let it die. It makes no sense to play it unless there is some real national involvement. Let it be a thing of lore.
"Back in the middle ages, some men would get together to compete for national pride. In those obscure times..."
It's not dying - it's being murdered by the powers that be.
The murder is akin to a somewhat subtle but effective murder via gradual but significant poison.
It's both tragic and pathetic.
by skatingfan So did the deal collapse because of issues with the Kosmos Group, or because the event was not living up to the expectations?
by Deuce One's character doesn't seem to be considered as a relevant element in these 'investigations'.
I feel that one's character should be one of the most important factors. Look into the player's history - both on and off the court... talk with their peers... There is plenty of very relevant information available. Through these measures, one should be able to determine if a player is a dishonest cheat or not.
by Owendonovan Aaand, she's not be able to feature her new nose on a show court.
by ponchi101 I side with Cahill.
by Deuce I do, as well.
When Halep's suspension was announced, Cahill (Halep's former coach) was absolutely insistent that she would not take anything illegal or questionable knowingly or deliberately. He did not have to say anything, as he has no official association with Halep now - but he went way out of his way to stand up for her character.
That says a lot about Cahill - and about Halep.
by JazzNU
by JazzNU ^^ Just posting since it's apparently something being asked in press. Sounds like nothing to me. de Minaur had a similar issue because of a doctor being called into question that gave him his vaccine and it involved hundreds of patients as well.
by Deuce Somehow I wouldn't take what Giorgi says as gospel. She looked like she was squirming around in her press conference.
But the reporters asking the questions were incredibly stupid, as they were using words that it quickly became clear Giorgi did not understand the meaning of - and they kept using these words, talking to her as if she is a fluent native English speaker...
by ti-amieInside the Battle to Control, and Fix, Tennis
The sport’s hit Netflix series and rising collection of young stars has investors bullish on tennis, which is poised for a once-in-a-generation moment of disruption.
The Italian tennis player Matteo Berrettini is one of several rising star players who features in “Break Point,” the new Netflix documentary series.Credit...Alana Holmberg for The New York Times
By Matthew Futterman and Lauren Hirsch
Jan. 21, 2023
Updated 2:06 p.m. ET
Walking the grounds of Melbourne Park, where the Australian Open is in full swing, one could easily believe that all is well and peaceful in professional tennis.
Stadiums are packed. Champagne flows. Players are competing for more than $53 million in prize money at a major tournament the Swiss star Roger Federer nicknamed “the happy Slam.”
Behind the scenes though, over the past 18 months a coterie of billionaires, deep-pocketed companies and star players has engaged in a high-stakes battle to lead what they view as a once-in-a-generation opportunity for disruption in a sport long known for its dysfunctional management and disparate power structure.
The figures include Bill Ackman, the billionaire hedge fund manager and hard-core tennis hobbyist who built a tennis court atop his office tower in Midtown Manhattan. Ackman is funding a fledgling players’ organization led by the Serbian star Novak Djokovic. The group is searching for ways to grow the sport’s financial pie and the size of the players’ slice. In their ideal world, one day there might even be a major player-run event akin to a fifth Grand Slam tournament.
Earlier this month, the group announced its core tenets, which include protecting player rights, securing fair compensation and improving work conditions. Players have about had it with matches that start close to midnight, end near dawn and put them at risk of injury, like Andy Murray’s second-round win in Melbourne that ended after 4 a.m. Friday. The group also announced its first eight-player executive committee, which includes some of the top young men and women in the game.
There is also CVC Capital Partners, the Luxembourg-based private equity firm that has been working for months to close a $150 million equity investment in the WTA Tour that it views as a first step to becoming a prime player in tennis.
Then there is Sinclair Broadcast Group, the American media conglomerate that owns the Tennis Channel, which wants to expand globally and has been trying to entice the people who run tennis to embrace that effort.
All of them see tennis as uniquely positioned for growth, as a new generation of stars tries to take up the mantle of the last one, a story Netflix highlights in the new documentary series “Break Point.”
“This is definitely the time to go long on tennis, 100 percent,” said Ackman, the noted short-seller best known for betting on a plunging real estate market ahead of the Great Recession. “You look at the global popularity of the sport and revenues and it is totally anomalous.”
Through his philanthropic fund, the investor Bill Ackman is essentially bankrolling Novak Djokovic’s Professional Tennis Players Association, a new players’ union, and a player-controlled, for-profit entity.Credit...Elsa/Getty Images
Ackman has largely given up his noisy activist approach to investing, but tennis, he and others point out, is one of the few global sports and the only one in which men and women regularly share a tournament. That has helped it attract roughly one billion fans worldwide, with nearly equal numbers of male and female devotees.
Tennis executives estimate the sport collects roughly $2.5 billion in total revenues each year. However, it collects far less revenue per fan than other sports. The N.F.L. has a fraction of the number of fans but some $18 billion in revenues. Tennis players also receive a much smaller percentage of those revenues than athletes in other sports receive, and they have to pay for their coaches, training and much of their travel. Aside from a handful of premium events like Grand Slams and some of the Masters 1000 competitions, many tennis tournaments still have the feel of mid-tier minor league baseball.
The cash crunch has been especially acute for the WTA Tour ever since it suspended its operations in China in December 2021, retaliating against a government that had seemingly silenced a Chinese player after she accused a former top government official of sexually assaulting her. The move, led by the tour chief executive Steve Simon, represented a rare moment when a major organization prioritized morals and human rights over the bottom line.
China, the host country for nine tournaments, including the annual season-ending WTA Finals, had committed hundreds of millions of dollars to women’s tennis for a decade. The WTA has been hunting for new cash ever since the suspension, and with good reason. Some weeks, the disparity with the men’s tour is startling — in Auckland, New Zealand, this month, men competed for more than $700,000 in prize money while the women’s purse was $260,000.
The jockeying for power has played out against the backdrop of significant infighting within men’s professional golf prompted by the debut of LIV Golf, the Saudi-backed effort to create a rival to the PGA Tour that has fractured the sport and caused some of its biggest stars to disappear from all events but the four major tournaments.
The established cast of power players who run tennis — including Simon, his counterparts on the men’s pro tour, the four Grand Slams and the International Tennis Federation — have watched that unfold and worked to secure their primacy, even as they acknowledge that tennis has to change with the times.
“The status quo is not an option,” said Stacey Allaster, the tournament director of the U.S. Open.
Allaster, who has previously run everything from second-tier tournaments to the WTA Tour, described tennis as an “insular” sport that does not focus enough on what its fans want.
“What is the road map for trial and experimenting?” Allaster asked.
From left, Iga Swiatek, Stacey Allaster and Ons Jabeur after Swiatek beat Jabeur in the 2022 U.S. Open final. Allaster, the tournament’s director, said tennis has not focused enough on what fans want.Credit...Elsa/Getty Images
Andrea Gaudenzi, the former player who is the chairman of the men’s tour, the ATP, said all the interest from private investors signaled that the sport was headed in the right direction.
At a private players meeting last week in Melbourne, Gaudenzi heralded the ATP’s move to raise prize money by 21 percent, to a record $217.9 million this year. Unfortunately for the players, the ATP represents only about a quarter of the sport’s revenues. The Grand Slams collect most of the rest of the sport’s revenues, with the players’ cut at those events generally far less.
Gaudenzi said his organization has had its own discussions with CVC executives but no deals are imminent.
“Sometimes you need a catalyst event and someone helping you, and guiding you,” he said.
That fallout from that catalyst event — the WTA’s withdrawal from China — is ongoing.
The government of China’s leader, Xi Jinping, has given no indication that it will pursue a credible and transparent inquiry into the allegations from the player, Peng Shuai, which were made in November 2021 on her Chinese social media account.
In November 2022, Simon called the pending deal with CVC “a very complex business decision and business move we need to work through.”
CVC, which wanted to close the deal by the end of last year, has said little publicly about it. People familiar with the deal who were not authorized to discuss confidential financial information said it includes a $150 million payment for a 20 percent ownership stake in the WTA Tour.
As CVC and the WTA closed in on the deal during the fall, executives with Sinclair, which acquired the Tennis Channel in 2016, expressed their growing concern that after building an international network and being one of the highest-paying partners in the sport, CVC might try to elbow out the company if it reaches a similar agreement with the ATP, some of the people said.
In the short term, the women’s tour is expected to use a significant portion of the money from CVC to increase prize money for players, ensuring that men and women receive equal prize money at all the tour events they play together. That, however, will do little to produce a return for CVC, which is in this to make money.
To do that during the next decade, people familiar with CVC’s thinking said, company executives want to increase collaboration with the men’s tour and hold more combined events. Then they could consolidate assets, such as media rights and sponsorships, and sell them together in hopes a combined product would fetch a significantly higher price than what each tour collects separately. That could help CVC gain a foothold within the ATP and flex its muscle.
Those plans jibe with some of Gaudenzi’s priorities for the ATP, which include holding as many as nine combined events with the women’s tour, because those are the most popular with fans, creating with the Grand slams close to 200 days of the most desirable competition.
The vision may break down, however, when the tours try to figure out how to divide revenue. Men know their tour is more profitable and have long resisted equal partnerships with the women’s tour.
Gaudenzi said more men, especially the younger generation, understand the importance of equality and are much more open to the concept of joining forces with the women than they were when he played in the 1990s.
“They understand the value, you just have to show them the business case,” he said.
He added: “We are in the entertainment business, so we have to entertain people, not ourselves.”
Also, the plan de-emphasizes smaller tournaments, where players can collect appearance fees. A few of those are the most successful and popular events on the tour, such as the Estoril Open on the Portuguese Riviera, where players love the packed stadiums, seaside setting and full embrace of some of the region’s wealthiest companies, as well as the country’s president, Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa.
Ackman said much of the maneuvering he has seen represents old-world thinking. That is partly why he aligned with the players, who have the most incentive to push for change. They are stars of the show but receive roughly 15 to 25 percent of the revenues — about half of what athletes in other sports receive.
“Tennis is an oligopoly, and oligopolies are not innovative, and nonprofit ones are even less innovative,” Ackman said.
Through his philanthropic fund, Ackman is helping to bankroll Djokovic’s Professional Tennis Players Association, a new players’ union, and the Winners Alliance, a player-controlled, for-profit entity, though he said he has no designs on profiting from tennis.
Ackman made it clear that the P.T.P.A. was not seeking to launch a new tour, though in theory having an event like men’s golf’s annual Players Championship — considered a fifth major in some circles because of its top field and rich purse — would be appealing. He and the P.T.P.A. recently hired Ahmad Nassar, who for years ran the N.F.L. Players Association’s for-profit company, Players Inc.
Nassar hopes to convince players and their agents to sign over their group licensing rights, which the Winners Alliance could in turn sell — to a video game company, a luxury hotel chain that could offer both payments and discount deals, or any number of potential corporate investors.
Ahmad Nassar, hired as the executive director of the Professional Tennis Players Association, formerly ran the N.F.L. players’ union’s for-profit company.Credit...Alana Holmberg for The New York Times
The P.T.P.A. spent much of the past six months recruiting its executive committee. The group now includes Paula Badosa, the rising Spanish player, and Ons Jabeur of Tunisia, the No. 2 women’s singles player and 2022 Wimbledon finalist who is the sport’s first major star from a Muslim country. Jabeur made it clear the organization doesn’t want any part of a golf-style dispute.
“We don’t want to fight with everyone,” Jabeur said last Saturday, while expressing her determination to help the players get their due. “We just want to make our sport great.”
by ponchi101 For those of us old enough and with enough memory (about the PTPA article).
This was EXACTLY what the ATP was founded on. Have the players control the tour. Give the players more say in how the tournaments were run. Actually, have the players run the tournaments. Create a fifth "slam".
None of that happened. The players had no expertise (because, by definition, they are usually young people). The fifth Slam was the one in Miami, with a 128 field; the players said it was too much. The creation of a year end championship, with more money. It was created, and it did not work. Slowly, the players needed the expertise of the promoters, and they came in and took control.
Not to mention, Wimbledon will never follow anyone, and the USO belongs to the USTA. So, unless the players really want to boycott the two greatest slams, this will not work. Because it is basically: give me control of what you have. And nobody already involved in tennis will do that.
by Owendonovan I'm all for players taking greater control for their physical/emotional/financial betterment. The players really need to figure out how to leverage themselves better. Same with most any professional sport.
by ponchi101 Serious here. Do you think that this guy Nassar is looking after the well being of the players? Sounds like another Gerard Pique to me.
by Deuce
Owendonovan wrote: ↑Sun Jan 22, 2023 2:36 am
I'm all for players taking greater control for their physical/emotional/financial betterment. The players really need to figure out how to leverage themselves better. Same with most any professional sport.
The top players certainly don't need any 'financial betterment' - between prize money and sponsors/endorsements, they have more than enough money to live several lifetimes in absolute luxury.
by ti-amie The big problem is the one facing the WTA. Even with the now canceled Asian events they were paying the players much, much less than than the ATP. From the outside looking in the WTA has been poorly managed for many years now. Allaster was bad but Simon has managed to disappear the women's tour.
by Deuce I suppose I wouldn't mind if the prize money were better distributed - taking away from the top players to give more to the lower ranked and fringe players...
But if that's not going to happen, as far as equal prize money between the men and the women goes, I'd MUCH, MUCH, MUCH rather that the prize money be lowered for the men than that it be increased for the women.
To see the absolutely obscene amounts of money being paid to athletes in all pro sports today, while there are people who go without food and shelter (among other staples of life) makes me puke.
And they are viewed as demi-gods on top of the sickening amount of money they get.
Civilization is horrible.
by Owendonovan
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 22, 2023 2:40 am
Serious here. Do you think that this guy Nassar is looking after the well being of the players? Sounds like another Gerard Pique to me.
I don't know enough about him. The players have to play these businessmen's games somehow if they're going to feel like the arrangements are equitable.
The top players certainly don't need any 'financial betterment' - between prize money and sponsors/endorsements, they have more than enough money to live several lifetimes in absolute luxury.
Of course, but they're not the majority of players. It's be nice for players ranked, say, 250 to be able to make enough to not worry too much about all the expenses players have.
by Deuce
Owendonovan wrote: ↑Sun Jan 22, 2023 3:46 am The top players certainly don't need any 'financial betterment' - between prize money and sponsors/endorsements, they have more than enough money to live several lifetimes in absolute luxury.
Of course, but they're not the majority of players. It's be nice for players ranked, say, 250 to be able to make enough to not worry too much about all the expenses players have.
^ Yes.
But don't get the extra money for the lower ranked players by pumping more money into the sport - get the extra money for the lower ranked players by taking money away from the payouts for the latter rounds of tournaments, where we often see the same top players who already have more than enough money.
by Deuce Leaving 'political correctness' aside, I think it's safe to say that most of us were honestly surprised when we first saw Jelena Dokic in her new role as on-court interviewer at the Aussie Open (whether that was last year or this year), after having not seen her since her playing days. Yes, it can be said honestly that we were surprised she was significantly bigger than when we last saw her. And that's a very natural reaction to seeing any significant difference in a person from the time we last saw him/her... some on this message board mentioned the physical difference in Dokic when she was first seen interviewing players on court, saying they didn't recognize her (the comments were not derogatory or mean).
But there is a huge difference between being surprised by the difference and making derogatory, deliberately hurtful comments about it - especially toward a person who has been through what Dokic has been through with her abusive father, etc.
But, hey - that's what the internet brings out of too many people...
It got to a point where Dokic had had enough, and responded.
Here is an article about her response...
Deuce wrote: ↑Tue Jan 24, 2023 4:37 am
Leaving 'political correctness' aside, I think it's safe to say that most of us were honestly surprised when we first saw Jelena Dokic in her new role as on-court interviewer at the Aussie Open (whether that was last year or this year), after having not seen her since her playing days. Yes, it can be said honestly that we were surprised she was significantly bigger than when we last saw her. And that's a very natural reaction to seeing any significant difference in a person from the time we last saw him/her... some on this message board mentioned the physical difference in Dokic when she was first seen interviewing players on court, saying they didn't recognize her (the comments were not derogatory or mean).
But there is a huge difference between being surprised by the difference and making derogatory, deliberately hurtful comments about it - especially toward a person who has been through what Dokic has been through with her abusive father, etc.
But, hey - that's what the internet brings out of too many people...
It got to a point where Dokic had had enough, and responded.
Here is an article about her response...
People like this are everywhere online. I'm sure some of these idjuts are kids or young people who don't know her history and see a woman who is not "athletically slim" at this point in her life revel in being able to hurl insults and think it's funny. And why shouldn't they? JMac's comments about an Asian American player a few days ago are in the same vein. My mother always said "empty barrels make the most noise", an expression I appreciate more and more as I grow older.
by JTContinental Martina has stepped into JK Rowling territory on Twitter today to considerable backlash
by JazzNU
ti-amie wrote: ↑Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:58 pm
People like this are everywhere online. I'm sure some of these idjuts are kids or young people who don't know her history and see a woman who is not "athletically slim" at this point in her life revel in being able to hurl insults and think it's funny. And why shouldn't they? JMac's comments about an Asian American player a few days ago are in the same vein. My mother always said "empty barrels make the most noise", an expression I appreciate more and more as I grow older.
He did? Can't say I'm surprised or mad I missed it. Good lord, that man never learns. I've wondered plenty of times in the last few years what he has to do to get bounced because I'd have fired him a long time ago and at least 5 times since then.
by ti-amie
JTContinental wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 3:19 am
Martina has stepped into JK Rowling territory on Twitter today to considerable backlash
I was wondering when she would speak up again on this issue. I read an article last week (or the week before) about how this issue is perceived in lesbian culture. I'll see if I can find the article.
I found the article but I'll post it in "Random, Random".
by JazzNU
by ponchi101 Why do that?
by Owendonovan
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:55 pmWhy do that?
Inferiority complex.
by JazzNU
by ti-amie As Jazz said that family needs the services of a real PR agency but it doesn't seem that they want one.
by JazzNU And this right here is so dicey they need a PR firm that does full on Crisis Management.
by ponchi101 We don't know. Maybe this makes them/him more popular in Serbia.
You read it here first: he will be president of Serbia one of these days. With the support of a lot of people from the right.
by JazzNU
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:11 pm
We don't know. Maybe this makes them/him more popular in Serbia.
You read it here first: he will be president of Serbia one of these days. With the support of a lot of people from the right.
Yes, many of us have said before he would be.
And he's golden in Serbia, and if that was his only concern, than he'd have no worries with this unlikely to put a dent in his popularity there. But he's forever wanted to get the adoration bestowed on Federer and Nadal around the world, not just in Serbia. He was damn near happy despite losing that Calendar Grand Slam just beaming from the crowds cheering him on for that one day the way he's always wanted.
by ti-amie
by ti-amie
by ti-amie
by Owendonovan "These incidents" are brought up typically because they do involve a player, Vika. (hand on hip, thumb in front) Would I be asking Azarenka about Djokovic's father? Probably not. I would certainly be asking Djokovic, and maybe a Russian player because those fans are promoting Russia and Russian players I would presume.
ti-amie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 9:19 pm
As Jazz said that family needs the services of a real PR agency but it doesn't seem that they want one.
And as I said, hiring a PR agent will only serve to mask the real beliefs, real opinions, real feelings, etc. of people - which will make the situations even worse.
People argue in favour of transparency, and then at that same time call for PR agents to come in... It doesn't make sense. It's rather obvious that PR people HIDE transparency, and put a 'pretty mask' over anything that could be considered even remotely 'bad' or 'wrong' or 'questionable'. Their job in situations like this is to HIDE THE TRUTH in order to make the person(s) appear to be wonderful when they are not truly wonderful.
I say that it is MUCH, MUCH BETTER to have things like this (Djokovic's father with the pro-Putin people) occur publicly and transparently than for the true feelings of Djokovic's father to be hidden behind some manipulative PR garbage.
Either way, Djokovic's father's true opinions will not change, of course - so it is much better for him to display them openly so that we all can decide how to react to that, how to view him, etc., rather than have us think that he's a good guy just because some PR agency succeeded in hiding the truth.
Look, Sabalenka, of course, can make the choices that she feels is best for her, now and always. If things works out well, and if her issues perhaps aren't so deep- good on her. But, still- I ain't applauding this. I don't think she means anything bad from her statements. Nevertheless, I find the comment, about being your own psychologist, glib. I'm more into giving the to those who are self-aware, smart, strong, and even brave enough to get and continue with the mental health care that they need. Because there is still a lot of stigma everywhere concerning those of us who need mental health services.
Seems like a much better way to phrase this would've been to say that she got the tools she needs to manage on her own now. Maybe thank the psychologist she worked with to help her get past what was clearly a difficult time with her serving yips last year. But it's not her first language, so hopefully people give her a break on this phrasing. People don't necessarily stay with therapy forever, so nothing wrong with stopping in most cases, but this sounds like, "Ah, I don't need it, what can a psychologist do for me?", when she very clearly did need it and she's on the other side of her main problem now.
by Deuce Leylah was having a lot of problems with her service toss in 2021 before she made that U.S. Open Final. She was sometimes catching 5 or 6 tosses in a given service game. This endured for several months - basically the first half of 2021. It was obvious that she was over-thinking it, and it was thus snowballing (which is what seems to have occurred with Sabalenka).
Leylah's father eliminated the service toss problem via a simple, fun exercize in practice that was designed to take her mind off of the toss. The solution was quick and easy. No psychologist - just her dad.
Psychologists can help, or they can hurt. They tend to have a lot of power because people usually consult them when they are in a vulnerable state. Bad advice to a vulnerable person can do lots of harm. They are not universally good or inherently competent.
We don't know whether or not Sabalenka was given advice or tools by the psychologist she saw. And, if so, we don't know if that advice was good or bad.
The bottom line is that a person cannot be helped by anyone - not a father, not a psychologist, not a friend - unless the person is willing to help him/her self.
And if some people figure things out and help themselves without the aid of anyone else, that's ok. The only important thing is that the destructive and/or harmful behaviour ceases.
Seems like a much better way to phrase this would've been to say that she got the tools she needs to manage on her own now. Maybe thank the psychologist she worked with to help her get past what was clearly a difficult time with her serving yips last year. But it's not her first language, so hopefully people give her a break on this phrasing. People don't necessarily stay with therapy forever, so nothing wrong with stopping in most cases, but this sounds like, "Ah, I don't need it, what can a psychologist do for me?", when she very clearly did need it and she's on the other side of her main problem now.
Well put.
....AND, we will have to see if she truly is on the "other side" now. I mean, if she serves 43 double-faults, loses after having 12 match points, loses 6-0, 6-2....AND, if she wins, that's not gonna tell the story, either. LOL, she might win 20 Grand Slams and turn evil....Be your own psychologist at your own risk....IN any case, of course I wish her well. I want them both to win tomorrow. For sure, Sabalenka is of a talent level to win multiple singles Slam titles.
I also agree that all of this could, at least in part, be a language issue.
by ti-amie
Not too many tennis fans are going for the okey-doke Mr. Clarey. If you can read the remarks. If you can't here's a small sample.
To avoid reposting Clarey's tweet over and over...
Kathleen Mellor @KathleenMellor6
Replying to
@christophclarey
Did he also eloquently explain why he himself took selfies with these people?
wb @iamjwb5
Replying to @christophclarey
Sounds like a tweet by a djokovic pr, not by a journalist.
by ti-amie
by ponchi101 He considers Russia his homeland? That is a peculiar statement.
Was he born there?
by Owendonovan Reminds me so much of how Federer's, Nadal's, Murray's, Sampras's, Agassi's etc. parents act publicly for the betterment of their son's career.
by ponchi101
Owendonovan wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:14 am
Reminds me so much of how Federer's, Nadal's, Murray's, Sampras's, Agassi's etc. parents act publicly for the betterment of their son's career.
wb @iamjwb5
Replying to @christophclarey
Sounds like a tweet by a djokovic pr, not by a journalist.
I didn't know Christopher was one of the tennis journalists that would do this, but yes, this sounds like trying to aid Djokovic's PR here. I feel like a journalist that lists New York Times in his profile would ask follow up questions. Did his dad miss the large Putin heads and Z's on the flags? And when you say anti-war, does that include being against Russia's invasion of Ukraine? Generic statements like this typically get questioned by journalists.
Djokovic is the opposite of Rublev here, his life and his family's life are not in danger and they aren't in Russia unless his father is alluding to some kind of Russian lineage where there are cousins or distant family living there. He can actually say the specifics and doesn't need to echo Rublev's generic anti-war language with fear of repercussion.
Remember when Novak's family was becoming a progressively bigger problem being in attendance at his matches so they stayed home? Let's get back to those times
by Owendonovan ^They read like such "hangers-on".
by JazzNU Also, let's not pretend Djokovic wasn't pictured 2 or 3 years ago breaking bread with one of Milosevic's commanders or henchman or whatever the right way is to refer to that supreme evildoer (war criminal is probably what I should be able to refer to him as).
And I'm going to repeat something I've said on here recently - while I will excuse second language snafus for many, Novak's command of the English language is superb. Better that plenty of native speakers. He is never reaching for the right word in English to describe something, it's truly remarkable. So that's not very likely to be what is going on here. This is what I meant about him never switching to his native language on more serious topics. This is time when almost anyone else asks to communicate in Serbian, not English so there's no misunderstanding. Yet he never does because his command of English is so fantastic. He knows perfectly well how to issue a more forceful statement, he just decided not to (yet - I hope).
^ WHEN did Novak's father say that he considers Putin to be the "saviour of Russia and Russian people"? The date of the article is 2023, and I don't read Russian, and so can't make out any of the contents of the article.
Did he say it 3 months ago? 3 years ago? 10 years ago? The timing of the quote is extremely significant, obviously.
CONTEXT is very important - and yet it is the most ignored element when it comes to people judging other people.
Unlike the 'politically correct' plague, I have no problem with people judging, assessing, etc. - because I know that it is absolute human nature to judge and assess, and that everyone does it dozens of times each day - even (and especially) those who claim to be 'non-judgemental'... But it is important to judge, or assess, only after you have the pertinent and relevant information. And context is definitely a necessary ingredient in making proper and accurate judgements/assessments.
I don't particularly like what I've seen from Djokovic's father over the years. But, like everyone on this planet, he is entitled to be viewed fairly and accurately.
by ti-amie
by JazzNU
by JazzNU I have thoughts, but I'll keep most of them to myself since I've noticed how one-sided people seem to be on this topic. But I'll just say, I'm not surprised and this was always an incredibly weak case that Ben was making.
by ti-amie I'm not surprised by the ATP finding insufficient evidence at all. I never thought they were looking all that hard to begin with.
by JazzNU
ti-amie wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:48 am
I'm not surprised by the ATP finding insufficient evidence at all. I never thought they were looking all that hard to begin with.
If it was the ATP doing the investigation, then I'd agree with that. But with the third party conducting the investigation and putting their name and reputation at stake, I think it was thorough, there just wasn't anything there to find.
by dryrunguy In this day and age, if you don't have video, you're screwed. And even if you have video, you might still be screwed.
by JazzNU
dryrunguy wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:59 am
In this day and age, if you don't have video, you're screwed. And even if you have video, you might still be screwed.
That's not true for domestic abuse cases that are alleging violence. Quite a few of them have evidence, threatening texts, social media harassment, neighbors hearing fights through walls, hospital or urgent care visits, medical records, police getting called for loud noises, etc.
If video was required as proof in domestic abuse cases, no one would ever get a restraining order issued. And they get issued pretty darn regularly.
by ponchi101 Only thing I will add.
Isn't that how the legal system works, in the sense that they say "not guilty"? They do not find you "innocent"; it is very much like trying to prove the non-existence of something.
The ATP cannot claim, with 100% certainty, that Zverev is innocent. All you can do is what they did here: they have not found sufficient evidence that he indeed abused in some form his former GF. Insufficient may range from one or two items that do not show much, to really nothing there at all. But the legal way of framing is that: "We have no sufficient evidence to support the claims".
Not much more they can do.
by Deuce Well... obviously there is not "nothing there at all", as he was accused of abuse in a very detailed accusation. That is evidence.
We obviously don't know all of the particulars of the investigation, nor if any other evidence exists, nor if any of the evidence was contradictory.
It must also be considered that 'investigations' are sometimes corrupt, and reach their pre-determined conclusions for reasons which conveniently serve certain parties best, and not because it's the truth.
by ti-amie There was a lot of support for Ms Sharypova from inside the tennis community. That's what makes me think that there is some "there" there. Then radio silence occurred and I think many who had followed the situation knew that the ATP would find nothing that could be proven. They want him to be one of their stars.
by JazzNU
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:45 pm
Only thing I will add.
Isn't that how the legal system works, in the sense that they say "not guilty"? They do not find you "innocent"; it is very much like trying to prove the non-existence of something.
The ATP cannot claim, with 100% certainty, that Zverev is innocent. All you can do is what they did here: they have not found sufficient evidence that he indeed abused in some form his former GF. Insufficient may range from one or two items that do not show much, to really nothing there at all. But the legal way of framing is that: "We have no sufficient evidence to support the claims".
Not much more they can do.
Yes, that's correct. And part of the lack of reliable evidence here sounds like it's going to be that at least some of what Ben was using as proof, didn't hold up under a forensic review. The statement says a third-party forensic expert was used as part of the investigation. So they said lack of reliable evidence and eyewitness reports along with conflicting statements meant that they couldn't substantiate the allegations. This was all stuff said in the statement released about the investigation.
But many formed an opinion on this long ago and won't budge even with new information. And let's not pretend people like Sascha all that much to begin with (and who can blame them). And many are still hung up on Acapulco as proof that he did this, which is a lot to assume to me, but I've seen it quite a few times on social media, so it's clearly part of the thinking for many. It would be nice if innocent til proven guilty was still a thing, but it doesn't appear to be that much in public discourse.
Personally, I'm not sure what he did, so I won't be viewing Sascha as an abuser, just the spoiled asshole I've always thought of him as.
by Deuce ^Wow.
by ti-amie
by skatingfan Kyrgios pleads guilty to assault, has no conviction recorded
By ROD McGUIRK today
CANBERRA, Australia (AP) — Australian tennis star Nick Kyrgios apologized for shoving a former girlfriend to the ground two years ago after he escaped conviction Friday on a charge of common assault.
The 2022 Wimbledon runner-up pleaded guilty in the Australian Capital Territory Magistrates Court to assaulting Chiara Passari during an argument in his hometown of Canberra in January 2021.
Magistrate Beth Campbell did not record a conviction against Kyrgios for reasons including that the offense was at the low end of seriousness for a common assault, was not premeditated and he had no criminal record.
Kyrgios, who was using crutches following recent surgery on his left knee, ignored reporters’ questions as he left court but issued a statement through a management company.
“I respect today’s ruling and am grateful to the court for dismissing the charges without conviction,” Kyrgios said. “I was not in a good place when this took place and I reacted to a difficult situation in a way I deeply regret. I know it wasn’t OK and I’m sincerely sorry for the hurt I caused.
“Mental health is tough. Life can seem overwhelming. But I’ve found that getting help and working on myself has helped me to feel better and to be better,” he added.
The only media question he responded to as he was about to be driven away from the court was: “what’s next for Nick Kyrgios?”
“Just recovery and get back on court,” Kyrgios replied.
Campbell described the shove as an act of “stupidity” and “frustration.”
She assured him his celebrity was not a factor in him avoiding a criminal record.
“You’re a young man who happens to hit the tennis ball particularly well and your name is widely recognised outside this court room,” Campbell told Kyrgrios.
“I deal with you exactly the same way as any young man in this court.”
Kyrgios’ psychologist, Sam Borenstein, said in a written report and testimony by phone that Kyrgios had suffered major depressive episodes around the time of the assault and had used alcohol and drugs to cope. Kyrgios’ mental health led to impulsive and reckless behavior.
His recent knee injury had resulted in mild to moderate symptoms of depression, but his mental health was improving, Borenstein said.
“He’s doing very well,” Borenstein said. “His mental health has improved significantly.”
“Given the history, he is still vulnerable to recurrent episodes of depression depending on life circumstances,” Borenstein added.
Lawyers for Kyrgios had sought to have charge dismissed on mental health grounds but the application was unsuccessful.
In arguing against a conviction being recorded, defense lawyer Michael Kukulies-Smith cited the opinion of Kyrgios’s manager of a “strong likelihood of sanctions and impact upon sponsorship” from a conviction. Kyrgios had faced a potential maximum 2-year prison sentence if convicted.
The assault occurred when Kyrgios had been attempting to leave Passari during an argument late Jan. 10, 2021, outside her apartment in the inner-Canberra suburb of Kingston.
He called an Uber but Passari stood in the way of him closing the front passenger door. The driver wouldn’t leave with the door open.
Kyrgios eventually pushed Passari’s shoulders backward with open palms, causing her to fall to the pavement and graze her knee, according to agreed facts read to the court.
Passari signed a police statement alleging the assault 11 months later, after her relationship with Kyrgios had ended.
His current partner, Costeen Hatzi, wrote in a character reference that she had no concerns of such violence in her relationship. Hatzi was among Kyrgios’ supporters who sat behind him in court.
Kyrgios, wearing a dark suit and using the crutches for support, first spoke in court when the magistrate asked him if he could stand to enter a plea.
Kyrgios replied: “Yep, no worries, Your Honor,” as he rose to plead guilty.
In February last year, Kyrgios opened up about his performance at the 2019 Australian Open, saying what appeared to be a positive time in his life had been “one of my darkest periods.”
“I was lonely, depressed, negative, abusing alcohol, drugs, pushed away family and friends,” he wrote on Instagram. “I felt as if I couldn’t talk or trust anyone. This was a result of not opening up and refusing to lean on my loved ones and simply just push myself little by little to be positive.”
Kyrgios made further references to his mental health struggles during his runs last year to the final at Wimbledon and the quarterfinals at the U.S. Open.
After ending Daniil Medvedev’s U.S. Open title defense last September to reach the quarterfinals, Kyrgios expressed pride at lifting himself out of “some really tough situations, mentally” and “some really scary places” off the court.
The 27-year-old Kyrgios had a career setback last month when he withdrew from the Australian Open because the knee injury which later required arthroscopic surgery.
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:45 pm
Only thing I will add.
Isn't that how the legal system works, in the sense that they say "not guilty"? They do not find you "innocent"; it is very much like trying to prove the non-existence of something.
The ATP cannot claim, with 100% certainty, that Zverev is innocent. All you can do is what they did here: they have not found sufficient evidence that he indeed abused in some form his former GF. Insufficient may range from one or two items that do not show much, to really nothing there at all. But the legal way of framing is that: "We have no sufficient evidence to support the claims".
Not much more they can do.
You're supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, so if you aren't proven guilty, the assumption of innocence stands. But that's not how it works in the court of public opinion, which is why there are publicists and crisis managers - to fight the stain of the accusation.
Sometimes evidence is essentially exonerating, but the court's job isn't to declare someone innocent. There are some processes where that happens, though. I know some states offer a certificate of innocence for exonerees, for example, going beyond just overturning a ruling and hoping the public understands that the accused's presumption of innocence is reinstated.
by ponchi101 Kyrgios.
As I have been there, I can't be impartial in this situation.
But if you are trying to leave, and the person will not let you, what are you supposed to do? I had to climb out the window (second story, I was young).
by Owendonovan Maybe Nick and Sasha can go on a double date.
by ponchi101 to Jessica. Well written.
And: do find an American/Canadian/somewhere Red Cross site and take a first aid course. Basic CPR, how to use an AED, basic immobilization, and Heimlich maneuver. You truly can save the life of a loved one.
by ti-amie Thank you Jessica.
by Deuce
Deuce wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 6:52 am
This is rather insightful...
by Sinner Fan Jessica is a truly strong woman as is her mother. Very well done Jessica.
by ti-amie
by ponchi101 Ok. Let's agree. There should be no pay gap between the ATP and WTA.
Now: HOW do you achieve this? What is the plan? Will the ATP players, scheduled to play in City A, be willing to boycott that event unless the WTA players, playing in City B, get the same pay? Or, will they request that the pay schedule for City A be reduced and such reduction be given to the pay schedule for City B?
I am being serious. What would the logistics be?
by mmmm8
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 10:39 pm
Ok. Let's agree. There should be no pay gap between the ATP and WTA.
Now: HOW do you achieve this? What is the plan? Will the ATP players, scheduled to play in City A, be willing to boycott that event unless the WTA players, playing in City B, get the same pay? Or, will they request that the pay schedule for City A be reduced and such reduction be given to the pay schedule for City B?
I am being serious. What would the logistics be?
It has to be done from the top. ATP, WTA, and ITF have to all agree on the prize money and only accredit tournaments that will meet the amount.
by ponchi101 Ok. Step one.
What do you do with tournaments that do not pay equal money, WITHIN the separate tours? ATP 250's do not pay all the same. Do you homogenize those too?
by ti-amie
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 08, 2023 12:44 am
Ok. Step one.
What do you do with tournaments that do not pay equal money, WITHIN the separate tours? ATP 250's do not pay all the same. Do you homogenize those too?
The pay difference between ATP 250's and WTA 250's is and always has been startling. If you look at the financial commitments for similar events that get posted here you begin to shake your head.
I wonder if the whisper campaign for the tours to merge that's been going on for a few years now is really because the only way equal pay for men and women could be accomplished is for the tours to merge. There are many other issues that would have to be resolved for this to happen among them the ATP's bias against the WTA. If a merger could've taken place it would've been a few years ago when there were headline grabbing rivalries between the top players who on their own sold the tour. The reasons that's not happening now are too complex to get into but right now why should or would the ATP want to merge with the WTA especially after the fiasco that occurred when the WTA abruptly pulled out of the TennisTV contract.
I don't see anything but a merger fixing the situation, and I don't see why the ATP would seek a merger at this time.
by Deuce How about directly tying prize money to ticket sales - like as a percentage?
That way, the prize money is directly related to the income of a tournament. And one could conclude that the better product - which is what fans would flock to more - would have the greater prize money.
Would that be a fair direction to take?
Perhaps the danger in this is that both tours might then create a lot of idiotic gimmicks designed to get more asses in the seats - and that would obviously be a bad thing.
Do ATP tournaments outdraw WTA tournaments in terms of fans? I've heard rumblings that they do - but, when watching on TV, as well as at tournaments I've attended, the number of people in the seats seems pretty much the same for both.
Additionally, more equality in other matters would also help - like an element I mentioned a month or two ago of Majors alternating the men's and women's singles Final as the last match (grande finale) of a tournament. Right now, and for as long as I remember, it's the men's final that is the last match of every Major. This sends the obvious message that it is the most important and significant match.
But what about changing that to make it equal? One year, the Aussie Open and Wimbledon would have the men's final as the last match, while Roland Garros and the U.S. Open would feature the women's final as the last match - and the following year, the Majors would reverse who plays the final match, and reverse every year...
Also, on the websites for the Majors (and any other tournament where both the men and the women play at the same time), the default view of the draws is always the men's singles. Why not alternate that, as well, in the interest of equality? It may seem like a small thing, but I think defaulting to the men's singles every time sends the message that that is the most important and significant draw.
by Owendonovan
Deuce wrote: ↑Wed Mar 08, 2023 1:32 am
Perhaps the danger in this is that both tours might then create a lot of idiotic gimmicks designed to get more asses in the seats - and that would obviously be a bad thing.
Deuce wrote: ↑Wed Mar 08, 2023 1:32 am
Perhaps the danger in this is that both tours might then create a lot of idiotic gimmicks designed to get more asses in the seats - and that would obviously be a bad thing.
Like signing camera lenses?
No - that actually encourages people to stay home and watch on TV.
But only if they actually show what the player writes on the lens in a readable format!
I was thinking of stupid gimmicks like selling the women's game more on 'sex appeal', having speed serving contests among the male players between matches, and other ridiculous things that have nothing to do with actual tennis competition.
Aside from ticket sales determining prize money, should TV viewership also count toward that? Should advertizing money be part of the percentage of prize money, as well as ticket sales?
One would assume that ticket sales and TV viewership would be similar in terms of attracting fans to watch a given tournament.
Or would that complicate things too much and/or be too easy to manipulate the numbers?
by mmmm8
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 08, 2023 12:44 am
Ok. Step one.
What do you do with tournaments that do not pay equal money, WITHIN the separate tours? ATP 250's do not pay all the same. Do you homogenize those too?
Yes. It makes no sense why points are the same but prize money is different.
Of course, this may put some markets at a disadvantage because purchasing power may not be the same in, say, Morocco or Colombia as in Doha or California. But there are ways around that - for example, ITF can hold the global purse for prize money and contributions vary by tournament but prize money is averaged out.
Tournaments will get around this with appearance money, but that already happens, but at least it can guarantee a level base.
by mmmm8 Ticket sales are only a portion (sometimes small to moderate) of tournament revenue.
by Deuce
mmmm8 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 08, 2023 4:19 am
Ticket sales are only a portion (sometimes small to moderate) of tournament revenue.
Ticket sales, product sales (concessions - food, drink, tennis items) - which is obviously directly related to the number of ticket sales, TV advertizing revenue, which is determined by number of people viewing (even if it's an estimate)...
Even direct sponsorships of tournaments is related to how many fans buy tickets and watch on TV - the fewer asses in the seats and watching on TV, the less interested that sponsors would be to advertize, whether it's TV commercials, or tournament site advertizing.
It seems then that the tournament revenue is largely tied to the number of fans (live and TV) in many ways. So, the fewer fans who watch (both live and on TV), the less revenue the tournament receives, no?
Therefore, tying the number of fans (live and TV viewership) to the prize money is essentially the same as tying a percentage of the tournament revenue to the prize money.
It seems to me that would be the most fair way to proceed with this issue.
This type of passive aggressive dunking on allies is why I have grown to hate Twitter. Tell him yourself instead of subtweeting for likes.
by Deuce I just read Denis' article on the gender gap/equal pay for the first time.
In all honesty, I deliberately didn't read it at first because, hey - it's Denis, who is not exactly the most mature player on the tour. Not so long ago, he was saying that it's not worth playing tournaments that don't pay big, and he was 'rapping' on the court after wins . His match behaviour has been petulant, as well.
I figured that this 'position' on equal pay was likely just something he was doing to impress his girlfriend (she's a pro tennis player, as well).
But then, on a whim, I decided to read the article...
It's not Pulitzer Prize winning writing - it's rather disjointed and immature in spots... but it is worth reading. I encourage people to read it. He goes off on tangents here and there, but they are insightful tangents that give you an idea of his path to the pros.
Tennis Canada - which likes to take credit for ALL Canadian tennis talent, regardless of whether they actually played a significant role in the development of certain players or not - doesn't come off looking very good in the article.
In any case, Denis seems to be - gulp - maturing. He has a steady woman in his life - and that presence often helps a man to mature.
He did a good thing in writing this article, and it deserves to be read.
mmmm8 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 08, 2023 4:19 am
Ticket sales are only a portion (sometimes small to moderate) of tournament revenue.
Ticket sales, product sales (concessions - food, drink, tennis items) - which is obviously directly related to the number of ticket sales, TV advertizing revenue, which is determined by number of people viewing (even if it's an estimate)...
Even direct sponsorships of tournaments is related to how many fans buy tickets and watch on TV - the fewer asses in the seats and watching on TV, the less interested that sponsors would be to advertize, whether it's TV commercials, or tournament site advertizing.
It seems then that the tournament revenue is largely tied to the number of fans (live and TV) in many ways. So, the fewer fans who watch (both live and on TV), the less revenue the tournament receives, no?
Therefore, tying the number of fans (live and TV viewership) to the prize money is essentially the same as tying a percentage of the tournament revenue to the prize money.
It seems to me that would be the most fair way to proceed with this issue.
As much as 85% of tournament revenue - for a tournament that's a huge fan draw, like the US Open - comes from sponsorships. Of course, that is connected to fan interest, but that interest might not be driven primarily by players - could be location, lack of other sporting events in the area, good tournament director, some exec being a tennis fan, etc.
To be honest, I also just don't see how fan appeal should determine prize winnings. The player's actual job is to play matches and fulfill media responsibilities. They get merit increases if they win because that's how you objectively prove you are good at the job. There is nothing that says they should be doing any of it with flair, or while looking good, or being funny, or being from the host country, etc. That's what helps build fan appeal and that's evaluated in appearance fees and individual sponsorships.
Prize money, imho, should only be tied to results.
by Suliso It's all a noble idea, but who is going to pay is the question? I think Ti-amie is right that the only feasible way would be a full merger of both tours.
I wonder is PGA and LPGA also looking at it? I suspect prize money differences are even bigger there.
by Suliso If it's not a same organization the fair pay argument doesn't apply anymore. If it did an employee in company X in NYC would be able to demand the same pay as another employee in company Y in Boston doing roughly the same job. That would be a very strange world indeed.
by ponchi101 I will only add an example.
The Bogota ATP tournament disappeared. It was able to attract some fine players, and yet, it went bust because of financing.
The Bogota WTA tournament remains. A small stop in the tour, with some dedicated players (Cami, of course, Podoroska), and some solid financial backing.
It is a noble idea, but notice how it is not implemented in other sport (at league level; the recent equal pay for the US Women's soccer team vis-a-vis the men's is an example). The WNBA can only dream of that. The PGA and LPGA are cleanly separated. I believe that the sole exception is the track and field and athletics tour, where men and women compete at the same venue and get paid the same.
As above. It can only work if you have only one tour. Which would then market one unified package.
by mmmm8
Suliso wrote: ↑Wed Mar 08, 2023 1:17 pm
If it's not a same organization the fair pay argument doesn't apply anymore. If it did an employee in company X in NYC would be able to demand the same pay as another employee in company Y in Boston doing roughly the same job. That would be a very strange world indeed.
Your example above is strange for the US but very real for more centralized countries with strong national unions, like the Netherlands or France.
Of course, there is no regulation that can require this for cross-border operations, it would have to be a voluntary organizational policy.
by ponchi101 Example of how difficult this would be.
On International Women's Day, ESPN L. America is showing a small promo for women's tennis, calling and using the hashtag #Ecualidad (#equality).
While they are showing Ivashka/Safiulin, and not a single WTA match.
Sigh.
mmmm8 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 08, 2023 4:19 am
Ticket sales are only a portion (sometimes small to moderate) of tournament revenue.
Ticket sales, product sales (concessions - food, drink, tennis items) - which is obviously directly related to the number of ticket sales, TV advertizing revenue, which is determined by number of people viewing (even if it's an estimate)...
Even direct sponsorships of tournaments is related to how many fans buy tickets and watch on TV - the fewer asses in the seats and watching on TV, the less interested that sponsors would be to advertize, whether it's TV commercials, or tournament site advertizing.
It seems then that the tournament revenue is largely tied to the number of fans (live and TV) in many ways. So, the fewer fans who watch (both live and on TV), the less revenue the tournament receives, no?
Therefore, tying the number of fans (live and TV viewership) to the prize money is essentially the same as tying a percentage of the tournament revenue to the prize money.
It seems to me that would be the most fair way to proceed with this issue.
As much as 85% of tournament revenue - for a tournament that's a huge fan draw, like the US Open - comes from sponsorships. Of course, that is connected to fan interest, but that interest might not be driven primarily by players - could be location, lack of other sporting events in the area, good tournament director, some exec being a tennis fan, etc.
To be honest, I also just don't see how fan appeal should determine prize winnings. The player's actual job is to play matches and fulfill media responsibilities. They get merit increases if they win because that's how you objectively prove you are good at the job. There is nothing that says they should be doing any of it with flair, or while looking good, or being funny, or being from the host country, etc. That's what helps build fan appeal and that's evaluated in appearance fees and individual sponsorships.
Prize money, imho, should only be tied to results.
I'm simply saying that what drives fan interest the most should determine how the players are paid. Because pro tennis obviously doesn't exist without the fans.
Isn't that how most - if not all - companies function - with salaries directly tied to the company's income/profits?
I can see your point, but I'm not talking about "flair, or while looking good, or being funny, or being from the host country, etc." - I'm talking about the overall package - of which the most important part is the quality of the product, which is the element that most determines the number of people attracted to it.
The tournament directors and sponsors look at the number of fans. Most fans will be there to watch and appreciate the tennis. But honestly, the tournament directors and sponsors don't care if the fans are there to watch tennis or to show off their new hairstyle, as long as they are there.
I don't know about the U.S. Open, but I know that Tennis Canada's main income for the entire year comes from ticket sales from the 1000 level tournament that they host every year.
As fan support and sponsorships are the fuel that drive pro tennis, I think it's logical - and fair - to tie prize money to that.
by JazzNU Shapovalov wrote in the Player's Tribune about the gender pay gap in tennis. I haven't read it but wanted to share. Article link at the bottom.
by ponchi101 We spoke about it a little bit; I think it was the OFFCOURT topic.
As I said there, the issue is how to achieve it. (Pay equality).
by Scoob Shapo is 100% correct. The pay should be equal. Players play the same game, with the same equipment, on the same court, between the same lines. The score is kept the same with the exception of some tournaments where Men play best 3 out of 5 sets and the women stick with the 2 out of 3 sets. Other than that the game is played practically the same. The Men may hit the ball harder most of the time, but still the games strategy is there whether you are a man or woman. Fans pay to see both play and as for myself I enjoy watching them equally and I also love the doubles game as well.
by ponchi101
Scoob wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 4:20 pm
Shapo is 100% correct. The pay should be equal. Players play the same game, with the same equipment, on the same court, between the same lines. The score is kept the same with the exception of some tournaments where Men play best 3 out of 5 sets and the women stick with the 2 out of 3 sets. Other than that the game is played practically the same. The Men may hit the ball harder most of the time, but still the games strategy is there whether you are a man or woman. Fans pay to see both play and as for myself I enjoy watching them equally and I also love the doubles game as well.
And that is where the issue gets tricky.
How much are people willing to pay for, an example, Federer-Nadal? (if they were still playing). Well, they were willing to pay a lot. Nowadays, how much will people pay to see Paula Badosa/Annet Kontaveit in Tallin, compared to Medvedev/Rublev in Dubai? Personally, give me Paula/Annet, but that is me. The bulk of the people? I have no idea.
We sometimes forget that this is an entertainment industry. Yes, to me it is a sport and a passion, but for many people it is just another selection in their share of entertainment options. Assume, for a second, that the WTA decides that all 250 tournaments have to pay equal money than the ATP 250 of that week. I can assure that, for example, the Bogota open disappears. They simply will not have that amount of money, and never will. It is a small tournament.
SHOULD be is not the same as CAN be. If the WTA/ATP/ITF get together and form a single, unified tour, then they can set prize money in tandem. But let's wait and see how many tournaments, from both tours, will remain. We can be sure some will be lost.
by meganfernandez This isn't a free-market issue. When people insist that the equal prize money issue is purely economic, it strikes me as willfully obtuse. I can't take them seriously.
Many seem incapable of recognizing that women are disadvantaged in terms of popularity and respect in sports. They haven't been allowed to play at the same level for as long as men. They weren't encouraged and expected to play sports like men were until fairly recently (if that), and public perception responded accordingly. Men have a huge head start on being valued as athletes, and they are also more valued than women in the workplace in general (well documented). If people prefer men's tennis in general, it's at least partly a product of social inequity going back centuries - fruit of the poisoned tree. THAT is the wrong that equal prize money seeks to correct, the burden that it seeks to relieve, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's the right thing to do. Stop punishing women for being denied fairness for most of human existence, and stop acting like this is purely about a spreadsheet.
I'm aware that tour events and Slams are a different arrangement. I'm not sure where i stand on the disparity in pay between tour events. If it's a joint event at the same time and place, I think they should pay the same. Beyond that, I'm undecided. Certainly doesn't feel right to say "Hey, WTA Austin, you better pay the same as ATP Acapulco this week." I can't get there yet.
Scoob wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 4:20 pm
Shapo is 100% correct. The pay should be equal. Players play the same game, with the same equipment, on the same court, between the same lines. The score is kept the same with the exception of some tournaments where Men play best 3 out of 5 sets and the women stick with the 2 out of 3 sets. Other than that the game is played practically the same. The Men may hit the ball harder most of the time, but still the games strategy is there whether you are a man or woman. Fans pay to see both play and as for myself I enjoy watching them equally and I also love the doubles game as well.
And that is where the issue gets tricky.
How much are people willing to pay for, an example, Federer-Nadal? (if they were still playing). Well, they were willing to pay a lot. Nowadays, how much will people pay to see Paula Badosa/Annet Kontaveit in Tallin, compared to Medvedev/Rublev in Dubai? Personally, give me Paula/Annet, but that is me. The bulk of the people? I have no idea.
We sometimes forget that this is an entertainment industry. Yes, to me it is a sport and a passion, but for many people it is just another selection in their share of entertainment options. Assume, for a second, that the WTA decides that all 250 tournaments have to pay equal money than the ATP 250 of that week. I can assure that, for example, the Bogota open disappears. They simply will not have that amount of money, and never will. It is a small tournament.
SHOULD be is not the same as CAN be. If the WTA/ATP/ITF get together and form a single, unified tour, then they can set prize money in tandem. But let's wait and see how many tournaments, from both tours, will remain. We can be sure some will be lost.
Tennis has been a passion of mine ever since I have been retrieving the tennis balls when my older brother and dad would hit the tennis ball around the court. On the rare occasion I do get to see a professional tennis match live it is still a passion but it is also for entertainment. My wife is not much into Tennis as I am as she grew up playing Lacrosse. We go to each sporting event as a purpose of entertainment. Personally, if I go see Leyah play Rebecca Marino in a Charity event, I can be entertained by it. If I go see a Djokovic versus Alcaraz match I could be equally entertained, but if Novak withdraws after the 1st set, I will be pissed.
It is true that some of the smaller WTA would not be able to handle the pay increase and would have to shut down operations. I guarantee you though that for everyone of the tournaments another new one would be ready to step right in.
Like you stated, we shall see how it all unfolds. The future awaits for the Tennis tour to step up.
by ponchi101
meganfernandez wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 5:13 pm
This isn't a free-market issue. When people insist that the equal prize money issue is purely economic, it strikes me as willfully obtuse. I can't take them seriously.
Many seem incapable of recognizing that women are disadvantaged in terms of popularity and respect in sports. They haven't been allowed to play at the same level for as long as men. They weren't encouraged and expected to play sports like men were until fairly recently (if that), and public perception responded accordingly. Men have a huge head start on being valued as athletes, and they are also more valued than women in the workplace in general (well documented). If people prefer men's tennis in general, it's at least partly a product of social inequity going back centuries - fruit of the poisoned tree. THAT is the wrong that equal prize money seeks to correct, the burden that it seeks to relieve, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's the right thing to do. Stop punishing women for being denied fairness for most of human existence, and stop acting like this is purely about a spreadsheet.
I'm aware that tour events and Slams are a different arrangement. I'm not sure where i stand on the disparity in pay between tour events. If it's a joint event at the same time and place, I think they should pay the same. Beyond that, I'm undecided. Certainly doesn't feel right to say "Hey, WTA Austin, you better play the same as ATP Acapulco this week." I can't get there yet.
You have called me willfully obtuse
What is then the position on other sports where men and women have leagues and the women's pay pales in comparison? Do you think that the WNBA could pay the same salaries and contracts as the NBA? How about the soccer leagues around the world? Can the female leagues pay the same salaries, when the stadia are at 1/4 capacity?
And I believe that what Shapo was talking about is precisely what you say at the end. Austin HAS TO pay the same as Acapulco. And that is where the economics enter into play.
by JazzNU Okay, so I've tried to break this down a bit, believe it or not, this is an abbreviated version of what I was initially writing.
1. Institutional misogyny is at the root of a lot of this.
2. @Ponchi's situation is always a good example where tennis is concerned when comparing the WTA and the ATP. He lives in a place that doesn't place a high value on women's tennis to the point where he has limited easy access to watching women's tennis outside of the majors unless it's an SA tournament. That's not a Colombia problem, that's a problem in many countries. The women are up against a problem before they even get started.
3. There are women's sports that are more popular their male counterparts especially gymnastics and figure skating, but they get regularly ignored as reference points when comparing men's and women's sports. It depends on the country, but this is also a significant edge in popularity when there is next to no top competitor in the area from the country in the men's side but there is on the women's side. For the US, besides tennis, skiing is a very good example of this. We've had Lindsey Vonn and Mikaela Shiffrin reigning supreme for over a decade combined, so that is the marquee side of the sport here in both interest and ratings.
3. Ignoring #3, if you think about women's college and pro sports in the US, they have not been all that easy to watch until the last decade or so. And even then, it's only been very recently where they have gotten more promotion and access and better timeslots for viewing them on TV. As that has happened, viewership has slowly increased. And as it's gotten more coverage paired with that promotion, its gains have been more rapid. The gains across the board can be seen with the WNBA, the women's college basketball tournament, and women's softball tournament in particular.
4. Also, there are still challenges relating to #1 that are setbacks even as gains are earned. For instance, despite it being a legal requirement that the women's college basketball players get the same equipment, accommodations, and facilities, it was shown in truly pitiful fashion via social media posts from female players who had had enough that went viral how inequitable the situations were. NCAA got embarrassed and called to the carpet once it was known, but it should've never been the case when Title IV is already there to protect against those things.
Another thing is that institutional racism remains problematic in coverage as well. Far and away the best women's college basketball team for the last few years has been South Carolina. But ESPN has continued to aggressively push all things UConn despite their stumbles and didn't invite the best women's basketball player from South Carolina to the ESPYs until they got called out for it and issued a very late invite to her (she turned it down). This is after the year before hyping a white UConn player ad nauseum who was the best in nation and putting in a lengthy montage of her in at the awards show, but they couldn't see fit to repeat that with the black player from South Carolina. This has been a common issue in coverage that has limited growth. There is also a homophobic angle to this, where there has been a concerted push to prop up players that don't "appear lesbian". Blew up in their faces a bit when one of the players they especially zeroed in on promoting came out several years after college. It's been an uphill battle to just cover the sport by the talent.
5. Final point. People forget that the NBA wasn't a popular league back in the earlier days. There is revisionist history where their popularity is concerned by many fans. The NBA was so lacking in popularity that the Finals were not shown live, but instead tape delayed and aired after the nightly news in local markets. It wasn't until David Stern's leadership in the 80s where he decided to change the focus on the sport to the players and not the teams that the popularity began to steadily increase. It wasn't just the Lakers vs. the Celtics for the title, it was Magic vs. Bird. That was the difference and set the league on the course to where it is today, the second most popular professional sport in the country. The point is, catching on with the public and growing the sport can take time. Expecting it to happen overnight is unrealistic. It didn't happen with the NBA and they weren't facing as many multi-faceted challenges. But don't ignore the gains that have been made when accessibility to women's sports increases.
Yes, this is a shorter version. I deleted portions from several of those points.
by Deuce For the sake of clear continuity, it would be best, I think, to fuse the 2 separate discussions on this subject of equal prize money, as it is happening in two separate threads, following Shapovalov's article having been posted in both threads.
I suggest that the posts in this thread be moved to the 'Tennis Related - Off Court Serious Issues' thread, as it is not an on-court issue, and it is also a serious issue - and because the discussion began in that other thread.
by Scoob It can be looked at the same way up here in Canada with Ice Hockey. The make up of the NHL is with Canadian players for the most part followed by European players. Those NHL players make a hell of a lot more money than any of the Canadian Women's Ice Hockey players who have accomplished a tremendous amount over the years not only for their country, but for the game of Ice Hockey itself.
Will there ever be a serious Women's Ice Professional Ice Hockey League that pays these women what they deserve? We will just have to wait and see with that and how people will embrace it. There is a league that has formed with the assistance of some NHL teams called the PWHPA, but I don't know much at all about it.
by ponchi101 Re-posting (C/P of Ti's original post)
---0---
Alex Dolgopolov
@TheDolgo
Steve Simon, @WTA CEO to @LTsurenko
:“I don’t support the war, but it’s OK if players support it”.
Steve, instead of intimidating Ukrainian women, be a man and take this to the public. Conversation happened with you on duty,people deserve to know,it’s OK, to support genocide
by ponchi101 If it is a direct quote:
What does "I do not support the war" mean? As opposed to: "I condemn the war". There is a difference.
And about Russians and Belarusians playing in the Olympics. The Olympics are a team event; you play and REPRESENT your country. Your medal goes to the country's tally. So, allowing Russia and Belorussia to compete would be condoning the war.
Which is the modern Olympic $pirit, but I digress.
by Deuce
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 14, 2023 2:07 am
If it is a direct quote:
What does "I do not support the war" mean? As opposed to: "I condemn the war". There is a difference.
And about Russians and Belarusians playing in the Olympics. The Olympics are a team event; you play and REPRESENT your country. Your medal goes to the country's tally. So, allowing Russia and Belorussia to compete would be condoning the war.
Which is the modern Olympic $pirit, but I digress.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that allowing the Russian and Belarusian athletes to compete in the Olympics is to condone the war/invasion. But, yes, the Olympics are a team event where athletes represent their country. It's a patriotic thing. And as such, I fully agree that Russia and Belarus should be banned from the Olympics entirely.
This isn't even to mention the several cheating issues that the Russians have had at the Olympics.
Regarding Tsurenko... I have no problem with anything that she wrote in that piece. I feel bad for her, and wish her well.
She seems to be expressing herself on the subject of the invasion much better than Kostyuk is. But then, she's more than a decade older than Kostyuk, and so is handling the situation more maturely.
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 14, 2023 2:07 am
If it is a direct quote:
What does "I do not support the war" mean? As opposed to: "I condemn the war". There is a difference.
And about Russians and Belarusians playing in the Olympics. The Olympics are a team event; you play and REPRESENT your country. Your medal goes to the country's tally. So, allowing Russia and Belorussia to compete would be condoning the war.
Which is the modern Olympic $pirit, but I digress.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that allowing the Russian and Belarusian athletes to compete in the Olympics is to condone the war/invasion. But, yes, the Olympics are a team event where athletes represent their country. It's a patriotic thing. And as such, I fully agree that Russia and Belarus should be banned from the Olympics entirely.
This isn't even to mention the several cheating issues that the Russians have had at the Olympics.
Regarding Tsurenko... I have no problem with anything that she wrote in that piece. I feel bad for her, and wish her well. She seems to be expressing herself on the subject of the invasion much better than Kostyuk is. But then, she's more than a decade older than Kostyuk, and so is handling the situation more maturely.
I agree 100% with the highlighted part.
Steve Simon, who replaced Stacey Allaster, who signed the WTA tour over to the Chinese, re-upped with a ten year deal, has actually been worse than Allaster. She was at least fighting to keep the WTA tour in the spotlight while he has disappeared it.
How do you fix your mouth to say something like that to a woman who is obviously having problems related to the invasion of her country? SMH.
Steve Simon, who replaced Stacey Allaster, who signed the WTA tour over to the Chinese, re-upped with a ten year deal, has actually been worse than Allaster. She was at least fighting to keep the WTA tour in the spotlight while he has disappeared it.
How do you fix your mouth to say something like that to a woman who is obviously having problems related to the invasion of her country? SMH.
^ Indeed. If that is truly how he reacted to Tsurenko, it was very much lacking in compassion, concern, comprehension, and common sense.
Also, having a man at the head of the Women's Tennis Association seems to me to be quite counter-intuitive.
by mmmm8 I am pretty shocked to hear the WTA (nor ITF?) have provided any financial, mental health, or other support to Ukrainian players who are, essentially, displaced. Almost all global employers have put something in place.
(Russian players should be able to request and get this support as well if they can show there's a threat to them going to Russia long-term, politically, or in terms of getting drafted).
by mmmm8 WTA response
(Via the Tennis Podcast)
by ti-amie
by ponchi101 I like Courier.
by Suliso Me too.
by Fastbackss The description is accurate of my sentiments watching, er listening, to him
by Deuce I don't like Courrier at all. (I also wouldn't want to agree with a Tsitsipas perspective on defining someone's character.)
I search for broadcasts where Courrier isn't present as much as possible (I did that just yesterday).
To use the word 'humility' to describe him is, in my opinion, a huge inaccuracy.
He was arrogant and obnoxious as a player (treated chair umpires very badly).
The only difference now is that his that his arrogance and obnoxiousness as a commentator is not as loud as it was when he was a player. He is always very smug and very satisfied with himself - the opposite of humble.
I see him as being just as much of a phoney as Agassi.
by ti-amie
Deuce wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 9:49 pm
I don't like Courrier at all. (I also wouldn't want to agree with a Tsitsipas perspective on defining someone's character.)
I search for broadcasts where Courrier isn't present as much as possible (I did that just yesterday).
To use the word 'humility' to describe him is, in my opinion, a huge inaccuracy.
He was arrogant and obnoxious as a player (treated chair umpires very badly).
The only difference now is that his that his arrogance and obnoxiousness as a commentator is not as loud as it was when he was a player. He is always very smug and very satisfied with himself - the opposite of humble.
I see him as being just as much of a phoney as Agassi.
I always appreciate your point of view. I've heard this about Courier but I prefer him over the laughing hyenas of ESPN.
Deuce wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 9:49 pm
I don't like Courrier at all. (I also wouldn't want to agree with a Tsitsipas perspective on defining someone's character.)
I search for broadcasts where Courrier isn't present as much as possible (I did that just yesterday).
To use the word 'humility' to describe him is, in my opinion, a huge inaccuracy.
He was arrogant and obnoxious as a player (treated chair umpires very badly).
The only difference now is that his that his arrogance and obnoxiousness as a commentator is not as loud as it was when he was a player. He is always very smug and very satisfied with himself - the opposite of humble.
I see him as being just as much of a phoney as Agassi.
I always appreciate your point of view. I've heard this about Courier but I prefer him over the laughing hyenas of ESPN.
I just think that Courrier - like Agassi - is putting on an act, pretending to be 'humble' when underneath that disguise is pure arrogance.
Right now, I'm being subjected to Stephanie Dubois in the WTA Final. She and Mickey Pereira seem to be the #1 team for WTA matches. Pereira is ok - except that his "breakthrough" (when a player breaks serve) gets old very fast. But Dubois is annoying with her very halting/abrupt way of talking. She talks like she has a permanent case of the hiccups. And, as a Fancophone, her English grammar leaves much to be desired (she'll constantly say things like "that" instead of "this" - as in "she has taken control of that set" when they're in the middle of THIS set).
by mmmm8 I don't know if Courier is "inspiring" but he is usually accurate and is one of the few that are able not to talk about random unrelated things during points, which is - and I'm not being facetious - the most important skill of a commentator to me.
by JTContinental
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 3:30 pmI like Courier.
He's one of my favorites, along with Lindsay and Chanda
by ashkor87 I like McEnroe and Navratilova best, as experts....
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 3:30 pmI like Courier.
He's one of my favorites, along with Lindsay and Chanda
Chanda is very good. I like the voice, she does not over extend, she is light. And, she knows when she does not need to say anything. She let's you watch the match.
by nelslus LOL, John and I cannot stand Courier- you should HEAR what John has to say about him during matches. I swear, many years ago, John and I recall that Courier, while, if I am recalling this correctly, playing something like a banjo or whatever, "sang" some kind of weird "original" song involving Andy Roddick that, in our admittedly depraved minds, came off as vaguely and boringly homoerotic-esque.
ON a positive note, at least the Bryan twins weren't there as accompanists.
He comes off to me as smug and self-important, and he far too often talks talks TALKS!!!! during points, and can just get very obsessive about making his opinions and expertise heard. Lindsay and Chanda are terrific IMO- and Taylor Townsend has come off great when she's been a commentator. I also hope that Petkovic can be used more during telecasts.
by ponchi101 Amazing how the same person can come across, to people that actually don't know them, in so many different hues.
There's got to be a social sciences experiment right there.
by nelslus
nelslus wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:41 am
LOL, John and I cannot stand Courier- you should HEAR what John has to say about him during matches. I swear, many years ago, John and I recall that Courier, while, if I am recalling this correctly, playing something like a banjo or whatever, "sang" some kind of weird "original" song involving Andy Roddick that, in our admittedly depraved minds, came off as vaguely and boringly homoerotic-esque.
ON a positive note, at least the Bryan twins weren't there as accompanists.
He comes off to me as smug and self-important, and he far too often talks talks TALKS!!!! during points, and can just get very obsessive about making his opinions and expertise heard. Lindsay and Chanda are terrific IMO- and Taylor Townsend has come off great when she's been a commentator. I also hope that Petkovic can be used more during telecasts.
Well, I MEAN....not even one like? I SWEAR, and FAR too often, I waste my best material on you trollops.
by ti-amie
nelslus wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:41 am
LOL, John and I cannot stand Courier- you should HEAR what John has to say about him during matches. I swear, many years ago, John and I recall that Courier, while, if I am recalling this correctly, playing something like a banjo or whatever, "sang" some kind of weird "original" song involving Andy Roddick that, in our admittedly depraved minds, came off as vaguely and boringly homoerotic-esque.
ON a positive note, at least the Bryan twins weren't there as accompanists.
He comes off to me as smug and self-important, and he far too often talks talks TALKS!!!! during points, and can just get very obsessive about making his opinions and expertise heard. Lindsay and Chanda are terrific IMO- and Taylor Townsend has come off great when she's been a commentator. I also hope that Petkovic can be used more during telecasts.
No one, and I mean NO ONE talks as much as JMac, Carillo, and if the Hellsent trifecta is going, PMac. Throw Arias into that cesspool too.
I stay in my lane when it comes to subjects I know nothing about so I'll take your word re the banjo concert.
I haven't heard Petko but Chanda, Lindsay and Taylor are all good. Chanda actually elevates the commentary of one of the male talking heads whose name escapes me right now.
by meganfernandez A friend mentioned that some players, not just Ukranians, support the ban on Russian and Belarussian players, like at Wimbledon. Is this true? I thought they all understood that was not helpful or deserved.
by nelslus
ti-amie wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:45 pmNo one, and I mean NO ONE talks as much as JMac, Carillo, and if the Hellsent trifecta is going, PMac. Throw Arias into that cesspool too.
I stay in my lane when it comes to subjects I know nothing about so I'll take your word re the banjo concert.
I haven't heard Petko but Chanda, Lindsay and Taylor are all good. Chanda actually elevates the commentary of one of the male talking heads whose name escapes me right now.
LOL, I'm always going to have nothing for love for Carillo- and I suspect that puts me in the minority in here.
The rest of that motley crew- I totally agree. Arias makes my teeth ache. Patrick is unbearable. Plus, I will NEVER forgive him for the way he and his team o' morons treated Taylor Townsend.
It may have been that I've only heard Petkovic via Tennis Channel Plus and/or ESPN Plus. I've really enjoyed her commentary.
ti-amie wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:45 pmNo one, and I mean NO ONE talks as much as JMac, Carillo, and if the Hellsent trifecta is going, PMac. Throw Arias into that cesspool too.
I stay in my lane when it comes to subjects I know nothing about so I'll take your word re the banjo concert.
I haven't heard Petko but Chanda, Lindsay and Taylor are all good. Chanda actually elevates the commentary of one of the male talking heads whose name escapes me right now.
LOL, I'm always going to have nothing for love for Carillo- and I suspect that puts me in the minority in here.
The rest of that motley crew- I totally agree. Arias makes my teeth ache. Patrick is unbearable. Plus, I will NEVER forgive him for the way he and his team o' morons treated Taylor Townsend.
It may have been that I've only heard Petkovic via Tennis Channel Plus and/or ESPN Plus. I've really enjoyed her commentary.
I like Carillo. So, you are in a minority indeed, but it is a minority of two
And what you wrote about Courier is FAR from your best trolling
by nelslus
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:27 pmAnd what you wrote about Courier is FAR from your best trolling
....You all haven't earned my best trolling.
by skatingfan
nelslus wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:15 pm
Well, I MEAN....not even one like? I SWEAR, and FAR too often, I waste my best material on you trollops.
I was too stunned that you and Deuce actually had the same opinion.
by Deuce
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:27 pm
I like Carillo. So, you are in a minority indeed, but it is a minority of two
^ Three.
I enjoy Carillo's wit. I find her to be pretty much the most intelligent of the regular commentators.
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 3:30 pmI like Courier.
He's one of my favorites, along with Lindsay and Chanda
Those are my faves as well.
by JazzNU
nelslus wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:41 am
He comes off to me as smug and self-important, and he far too often talks talks TALKS!!!! during points, and can just get very obsessive about making his opinions and expertise heard. Lindsay and Chanda are terrific IMO- and Taylor Townsend has come off great when she's been a commentator. I also hope that Petkovic can be used more during telecasts.
Taylor is fantastic. Far and away the very best of all the current and recent players, male or female, they've tried out and Tennis Channel clearly knows it. No one else has been given multiple matches now to call on their own. Taylor is a cut above for sure and has a future full-time career in this when she wants it.
by JazzNU A note about Courier - he is definitely opinionated and I am thankful for at times as he tends to give insight into things that many commentators aren't willing to discuss, but never been more grateful for him being willing to speak his mind than when he ripped the ATP on their new at the time website many years ago after it debuted in a fantastic on-air rant. People are used to complaining about the WTA website in recent years (rightly so), but may forget that the ATP released a new website that was next level awful. More modern looking and pretty, but almost unusable if you wanted to see anything past basic info for each player. Dedicated fans had been complaining about it on ATP's social media sites for months and it did nothing, couldn't even get a we're looking into it kind of response from them. Not long after Courier's on-air rant that went into specific detail about the level of pitiful the new site was on finding information (something that was never an issue on the old site), it was revamped into the user friendly site we have today. I will always give him credit for getting that done.
by ponchi101 To show you the difference between what you guys put up with, and what I put up with.
Clerc, narrating (spoiling) the Miami broadcast, just stated that "Fabio Fognini is a great champion. A player that always shows up for the big matches".
What?
by ashkor87 I can do better - we have an expert commentator here whose best line is 'it was 15 all, now it is 15-30'
by Deuce .
More on the ongoing issue of the effects of Russia's invasion of Ukraine...
by mmmm8 Her attitude of "not controlling the emotions of others" is healthy, but it's not true they "this has nothing to do with her." She has a platform that she is not using. She doesn't owe it to anyone to use it, but it's also a bit too easy to say "not my problem." And I don't mean just with regard to the war in Ukraine but things going on domestically as well.
by JazzNU
mmmm8 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 3:37 pm
Her attitude of "not controlling the emotions of others" is healthy, but it's not true they "this has nothing to do with her." She has a platform that she is not using. She doesn't owe it to anyone to use it, but it's also a bit too easy to say "not my problem." And I don't mean just with regard to the war in Ukraine but things going on domestically as well.
Who are you talking about?
by skatingfan
JazzNU wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 7:31 pm
Who are you talking about?
JazzNU wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 7:31 pm
Who are you talking about?
Sabalenka, I think - as response to Deuce's post.
Thanks.
So Sabalenka is under no obligation to use her platform but also let's chastise her for not using her platform? And are we pretending like political opposition is accepted well in Belarus when the opposition leader was just convicted for trumped up BS?
JazzNU wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 7:31 pm
Who are you talking about?
Sabalenka, I think - as response to Deuce's post.
Thanks.
So Sabalenka is under no obligation to use her platform but also let's chastise her for not using her platform? And are we pretending like political opposition is accepted well in Belarus when the opposition leader was just convicted for trumped up BS?
Trust me, as someone who cannot go to see my family in Russia because of my own opposition activity potentially affecting them or my ability to leave the country, I very much understand these complexities. I think what Sabalenka said is insensitive. (She did previously say things that were, in my view, better phrased).
Sabalenka also signed a letter from athletes in support of Lukashenko, in August 2022 [EDITED - in late 2020, thanks, Skatingfan]. No other active Belarussian tennis players signed it (plenty from other sports, though).
by Deuce Other than to write what I'm writing in this post, I'm not likely going to comment much, as I don't know enough of the particulars and details to feel I'm qualified to comment much.
I will say only that perhaps Sabalenka feels that she and/or her family will be punished if she doesn't support Lukashenko; that abstaining from supporting him would be viewed as being against him, and would bring some sort of punishment which would affect her tennis, and maybe even affect her life beyond tennis.
Should she be criticized if this is the case? Should she be criticized if she is too frightened to stand against a dictator?
I don't have the answers to these questions.
It's a complicated situation which existed before the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and whose roots extend a long way...
mmmm8 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 27, 2023 1:35 am
Sabalenka also signed a letter from athletes in support of Lukashenko, in August 2022. No other active Belarussian tennis players signed it (plenty from other sports, though).
I think the letter you're referring to dates to 2020, but maybe I'm confusing different letters. I only mention it because that would be before the invasion of Ukraine, and I think that context is important.
mmmm8 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 27, 2023 1:35 am
Sabalenka also signed a letter from athletes in support of Lukashenko, in August 2022. No other active Belarussian tennis players signed it (plenty from other sports, though).
I think the letter you're referring to dates to 2020, but maybe I'm confusing different letters. I only mention it because that would be before the invasion of Ukraine, and I think that context is important.
You're right. I screwed up there confusing the date it was sources for an article with the actual date. The letter was from fall 2020.
I would say it's not generally related to the invasion of Ukraine though, the domestic situation in Belarus is bad enough.
by skatingfan
mmmm8 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:26 pm
You're right. I screwed up there confusing the date it was sources for an article with the actual date. The letter was from fall 2020.
I would say it's not generally related to the invasion of Ukraine though, the domestic situation in Belarus is bad enough.
I just meant that the letter of support predated the war, and didn't want the two issues to be conflated.
mmmm8 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 27, 2023 1:35 am
Sabalenka also signed a letter from athletes in support of Lukashenko, in August 2022. No other active Belarussian tennis players signed it (plenty from other sports, though).
I think the letter you're referring to dates to 2020, but maybe I'm confusing different letters. I only mention it because that would be before the invasion of Ukraine, and I think that context is important.
You're right. I screwed up there confusing the date it was sources for an article with the actual date. The letter was from fall 2020.
I would say it's not generally related to the invasion of Ukraine though, the domestic situation in Belarus is bad enough.
She also posted in support of the protestors in Belarus in 2020. Not sure how that went over given the later crackdown of those protestors and the opposition and if the signing the letter is part of trying to make that better. Or maybe she co-opted the other side's message, wouldn't be the first time. But that's not the sign to me that it is to you I guess that she did sign it, there aren't any other high profile Belarussian tennis players that actually live a large amount in Belarus. But regardless, I'm not a fan of don't blame her, but also, let's do blame her.
Maybe I missed where she made a statement in Russian? You said she's said things that have been better phrased, but doesn't this time around. Sabalenka's English is good enough, but it is far from that of a native speaker. She made some not that great, very unappreciative (imo) comments about her working with a psychologist in Melbourne and I chalked it up to her using a second language to communicate, because I generally give players a break when they do so (Novak as the exception, which I have stated many times).
I think the letter you're referring to dates to 2020, but maybe I'm confusing different letters. I only mention it because that would be before the invasion of Ukraine, and I think that context is important.
You're right. I screwed up there confusing the date it was sources for an article with the actual date. The letter was from fall 2020.
I would say it's not generally related to the invasion of Ukraine though, the domestic situation in Belarus is bad enough.
She also posted in support of the protestors in Belarus in 2020. Not sure how that went over given the later crackdown of those protestors and the opposition and if the signing the letter is part of trying to make that better. Or maybe she co-opted the other side's message, wouldn't be the first time. But that's not the sign to me that it is to you I guess that she did sign it, there aren't any other high profile Belarussian tennis players that actually live a large amount in Belarus. But regardless, I'm not a fan of don't blame her, but also, let's do blame her.
Maybe I missed where she made a statement in Russian? You said she's said things that have been better phrased, but doesn't this time around. Sabalenka's English is good enough, but it is far from that of a native speaker. She made some not that great, very unappreciative (imo) comments about her working with a psychologist in Melbourne and I chalked it up to her using a second language to communicate, because I generally give players a break when they do so (Novak as the exception, which I have stated many times).
I also speak Russian and she has said things in Russian (I think, I don't recall for sure the language) about being against war (in general) and how this conflict should end. I don't think it's worth continuing discussing it because, at least I, certainly don't follow her closely enough to have the truly full picture of everything she's ever said publicly.
I'm coming at this from an obviously biased perspective, biased not against Sabalenka, but towards how *I* think people like her who have high risks but also a platform, should act and speak about what is happening in Russia, Belarus and Ukraine. This is something I have given daily thought for about 30 years, so my view is unlikely to change. I can accept that most people are non-committal or apathetic to things because of fear or discomfort or exhaustion, but I am not going to like or respect it, including in myself. That's maybe where the "blame her but don't blame her" is coming from.
by mick1303 Maybe it is a wrong thread, but I wanted to ask mostly US-based posters: what is the situation with pickleball invasion and what are you thoughts about this? I currently reside in Ukraine, but have some hopes that in future, if my son settles down enough in US (he is currently in a temporary status, but has a job) then me and my wife will be able eventually to move there. I spent some years in US on job assignments in the late 90s and early 2000s. And what I liked very much was avialability of free tennis courts in the parks in many locations nearby. But what I hear lately is disturbing, because they say that courts are converted to pickleball en masse. Will there be enough left?
Also some tennis stars (Agassi included) are participating in this, which IMO is also questionable. It seems that there is a conflict for resources and tennis is losing. And people who made their living from tennis switching sides like this - somehow I feel betrayed by their actions.
by ponchi101 I have seen people playing pickleball. And here in Colombia, what is taking off is Padel. Both are obviously less demanding that tennis, easier to learn, and easier to master.
So maybe tennis will remain at an exclusive level. Also, because you always play in teams, the camaraderie thing helps for more fun to the players.
I don't know how it will affect the popularity of tennis.
But you are asking the American members. I will let them answer.
by mick1303 Actually when in 2017 I was in US the last time, I did play some pickleball myself. Since earlier in my life I was also playing ping-pong and badminton (not only tennis), I picked it up pretty quickly. But this whole thing was because my friends there at the time just didn't have enough athletic abilities for tennis. Pickleball largely left me cold and given the choice, I would play tennis, then badminton, then ping-pong and then maybe pickleball. Or maybe I would just do something more intensive instead of the latter (like running).
by skatingfan Not an American, but what I've seen is that the public courts have a pickleball court lines drawn on them so that the court can be used for either sport.
by JTContinental
skatingfan wrote: ↑Wed Apr 12, 2023 12:19 am
Not an American, but what I've seen is that the public courts have a pickleball court lines drawn on them so that the court can be used for either sport.
Pickleball seems to have taken over a couple of the courts here in Seattle (we have lots of them). One is right in the middle of a residential district and neighbors have been complaining to the city about the constant thwacking of the balls on the racquets and the ensuing echoes.
by Deuce
mick1303 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 11, 2023 10:47 pm
Maybe it is a wrong thread, but I wanted to ask mostly US-based posters: what is the situation with pickleball invasion and what are you thoughts about this? I currently reside in Ukraine, but have some hopes that in future, if my son settles down enough in US (he is currently in a temporary status, but has a job) then me and my wife will be able eventually to move there. I spent some years in US on job assignments in the late 90s and early 2000s. And what I liked very much was avialability of free tennis courts in the parks in many locations nearby. But what I hear lately is disturbing, because they say that courts are converted to pickleball en masse. Will there be enough left?
Also some tennis stars (Agassi included) are participating in this, which IMO is also questionable. It seems that there is a conflict for resources and tennis is losing. And people who made their living from tennis switching sides like this - somehow I feel betrayed by their actions.
Hi, Mick...
I started playing pickleball just before the pandemic started. As a long time tennis player, I adapted to pickleball very quickly and easily. I watched people playing pickleball first, before I tried it - and in watching it, I didn't think I'd like it. But I've come to like it very much. The key is in finding your level of play. Playing with people who are not as good as you is not enjoyable - but this can be said for any sport. When you find other people of a similar level as you to play with, it's much more enjoyable, as it includes the element of always being challenging.
Right now, I divide my time about equally between tennis and pickleball. What I like about pickleball is that I'm in a league, and so there are designated times where the courts are reserved for us, and where I know I will be playing for 3 hours with people of a similar calibre.
With my tennis, it's more a matter of arranging to play independently with people I know.
I'm in Canada, of course... Here, as has been mentioned, some tennis courts are having pickleball lines added to them so that both sports can be played. You can make 2 pickleball courts on one tennis court. People typically bring their own portable net for pickleball. But we've just had 12 new dedicated pickleball only courts made around here (in 2 separate locations) that have permanent nets, like tennis courts.
I don't like it at all when pickleball lines are put on tennis courts - and I would support the tennis players over the pickleball players in any conflict on such courts.
But if you're worried about tennis courts being eradicated to make pickleball courts - I haven't ever seen that happen around here. And I haven't heard of it happening anywhere else (including in the U.S.).
In the end, the two sports have similarities, but they are different and separate. If ever you do move to the U.S., you'll still be able to play tennis, don't worry. And you'll be able to play pickleball, too.
by Owendonovan Anyone ever play beach tennis? I found it ok, but I prefer paddle ball(kadima or smash ball) on the beach, you get a more accurate play on the ball in reference to the effort you made to hit it. I also don't like playing with the deadish tennis balls you use in beach tennis, I can't shake the disappointing expectation of those balls reacting like regular tennis balls. My school would like to bring pickle ball into the athletic curriculum, I keep pushing for outdoor tennis, and have at least gotten mini nets and a bunch of kid raquets for indoors.
by Deuce
Owendonovan wrote: ↑Wed Apr 12, 2023 3:40 am
Anyone ever play beach tennis? I found it ok, but I prefer paddle ball(kadima or smash ball) on the beach, you get a more accurate play on the ball in reference to the effort you made to hit it. I also don't like playing with the deadish tennis balls you use in beach tennis, I can't shake the disappointing expectation of those balls reacting like regular tennis balls. My school would like to bring pickle ball into the athletic curriculum, I keep pushing for outdoor tennis, and have at least gotten mini nets and a bunch of kid raquets for indoors.
Is beach tennis like beach volleyball, where the women are ridiculously mandated to wear bikinis while the men are wearing baggy shorts down to their knees?
by Owendonovan Thankfully no. Typically tanks and shorts for both men and women. Positioning on the court is similar to beach volleyball and it's typically a doubles game.
by atlpam Here in the Atlanta area, tennis is still very big with most neighborhoods having at least 2 courts so they can participate in ALTA leagues. I stopped playing tennis about 10 years ago due to foot issues. I recently started playing pickleball at our second home in Vermont as a way to meet people and they created a court just down the mountain from us where they have group play at set times several days a week. In the next town they have added lines with portable nets for pickleball and there has been some contention with tennis players until they scheduled some specific days/times for pickleball use.
Agassi made a cute comment at the recent pickleball exo - Pickleball is where old tennis players go to die!
by mmmm8
mick1303 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 11, 2023 10:47 pm
Maybe it is a wrong thread, but I wanted to ask mostly US-based posters: what is the situation with pickleball invasion and what are you thoughts about this? I currently reside in Ukraine, but have some hopes that in future, if my son settles down enough in US (he is currently in a temporary status, but has a job) then me and my wife will be able eventually to move there. I spent some years in US on job assignments in the late 90s and early 2000s. And what I liked very much was avialability of free tennis courts in the parks in many locations nearby. But what I hear lately is disturbing, because they say that courts are converted to pickleball en masse. Will there be enough left?
Also some tennis stars (Agassi included) are participating in this, which IMO is also questionable. It seems that there is a conflict for resources and tennis is losing. And people who made their living from tennis switching sides like this - somehow I feel betrayed by their actions.
Pickleball has definitely taken off here in New York with a lot of new courts (including in Central Park, they've put them where the skating rink typically is in winter). But I think it's mostly in addition to rather than instead of existing tennis courts.
Glad your son was able to leave. Where in the US is he?
mick1303 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 11, 2023 10:47 pm
Maybe it is a wrong thread, but I wanted to ask mostly US-based posters: what is the situation with pickleball invasion and what are you thoughts about this? I currently reside in Ukraine, but have some hopes that in future, if my son settles down enough in US (he is currently in a temporary status, but has a job) then me and my wife will be able eventually to move there. I spent some years in US on job assignments in the late 90s and early 2000s. And what I liked very much was avialability of free tennis courts in the parks in many locations nearby. But what I hear lately is disturbing, because they say that courts are converted to pickleball en masse. Will there be enough left?
Also some tennis stars (Agassi included) are participating in this, which IMO is also questionable. It seems that there is a conflict for resources and tennis is losing. And people who made their living from tennis switching sides like this - somehow I feel betrayed by their actions.
Pickleball has definitely taken off here in New York with a lot of new courts (including in Central Park, they've put them where the skating rink typically is in winter). But I think it's mostly in addition to rather than instead of existing tennis courts.
Glad your son was able to leave. Where in the US is he?
He is in Pittsburgh, PA. This is where we used to live back then.
by dave g I happen to live in a rather small town (<2000) in northeastern Minnesota. So, there is not enough demand to have indoor tennis courts. However, pickleball courts are small enough to be able to be played in buildings that use to be schools. So I can play pickleball in winter, but not tennis. We have three outdoor tennis courts, with one of the having lines to double as a pickleball court. A nearby larger city has 11 tennis courts, with about 3 or 4 having extra sets of lines for pickleball. So, my experience in northeastern Minnesota is that pickleball and tennis can coexist without creating very much interference between the two.
by mmmm8
mick1303 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 12, 2023 9:21 pm
He is in Pittsburgh, PA. This is where we used to live back then.
My friend who is from Pittsburgh seems to have no issues finding tennis courts when she goes home, so I think you'd be fine if you end up there!
by ponchi101 Time to start a pickleball/other racquet sports topic?
by JTContinental The WTA has reinstated the China swing of the tour.
by ponchi101 Money talks.
And since the answer to the question "Where is Peng Shuai" was never given, the WTA can cave in.
Nothing that can be done against that dictatorship.
by Deuce
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2023 2:40 pm
Time to start a pickleball/other racquet sports topic?
^ I did that several months ago.
But there's been basically no movement in the thread.
It would be nice if there were more posts about our actual playing of tennis and other racquet sports. Sadly, though, that only seems to happen when the fake posters come in for their brief visits...
by ti-amie Christopher Clarey :verified_legacy:
@christophclarey@sportsbots.xyz
Spoke with Yaqiu Wang of Human Rights Watch about the WTA's retreat on China
“It was very inspiring at that point for the human rights community, and it’s now an extremely disappointing thing to see that the WTA basically is acting like everyone else."
WTA Lifts Suspension on Tournaments in China
The New York Times
by Owendonovan
JTContinental wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2023 7:37 pm
The WTA has reinstated the China swing of the tour.
by Suliso I guess one should pick fights in their own weight category.
by Deuce
Owendonovan wrote: ↑Wed Apr 12, 2023 10:57 am
Thankfully no. Typically tanks and shorts for both men and women. Positioning on the court is similar to beach volleyball and it's typically a doubles game.
Ok... based on the promo below, I see it as a potentially fun thing to do on the beach with friends... But the talk of 'professionals' seems rather ridiculous. I mean - how many different sports - and variations of sports - do we really need?
And that the ITF seems to be sanctioning it seems like excessive overkill. But I guess they see money in it somewhere...
I wouldn't call it 'beach tennis' myself - maybe something to do with paddles and volleying. It seems to resemble beach volleyball more than it resembles tennis.
by ponchi101
Suliso wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 4:38 am
I guess one should pick fights in their own weight category.
The thing is they pulled out of the fight, and now want to go back.
I gather it is now in the hands of the players. Can the WTA force them to go back to China?
by JazzNU
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2023 8:09 pm
Money talks.
And since the answer to the question "Where is Peng Shuai" was never given, the WTA can cave in.
Nothing that can be done against that dictatorship.
Yes, and also, fans and tennis journalists who are well aware of the situation have crapped on the WTA's tournaments and prize money since it occurred. It's been interesting how little leeway was given to them given the circumstances while seemingly understanding and supporting the WTA's stance on the matter as well.
Personally, the WTA held on longer than I thought they would. But I was pretty certain after I thought Qinwen Zheng might be a future top player, this wouldn't be an indefinite holdout.
Suliso wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 4:38 am
I guess one should pick fights in their own weight category.
The thing is they pulled out of the fight, and now want to go back.
I gather it is now in the hands of the players. Can the WTA force them to go back to China?
The money the WTA players will make in China will make them go back. They won't care if the stadiums are empty or not.
by ti-amieWTA tournaments will return to China after boycott over Peng Shuai allegations
By Russell Fuller
BBC tennis correspondent
13 April 2023
The Women's Tennis Association will resume tournaments in China this year having accepted an investigation into the sexual assault allegations made by former player Peng Shuai will not be carried out by the Chinese government.
Former doubles world number one Peng said in November 2021 she was "forced" into a sexual relationship with former China vice-premier Zhang Gaoli.
The WTA suspended its end-of-year events in China and said it would not return until there was an investigation and it had proof of Peng's safety.
After making the accusation in a social media post, Peng briefly disappeared from the public eye and she then later denied making the allegation. Zhang has not commented publicly on the allegation.
The WTA had called for the Chinese authorities to hold a "full, fair and transparent" investigation before any tournaments could go ahead.
"We've been in this for 16 months and we are convinced that at this point our requests will not be met," WTA chief executive Steve Simon told BBC Sport.
"To continue with the same strategy doesn't make sense and a different approach is needed. Hopefully, by returning, more progress can be made."
The decision means the final two months of the WTA season will once again be dominated by China. Simon said the schedule will be "very similar" to the pre-pandemic year of 2019 when eight Chinese tournaments were staged in eight weeks from early September.
And crucially, the season-ending WTA Finals will resume its 10-year deal with the city of Shenzhen. Prize money this year, as it was in the first year of the contract in 2019, will be £11.2m.
Simon says the "great majority" of players are in support of a return to China.
And despite promising a hard-line stance with the Chinese government, in which there would be no room for compromise, he says he has not considered resigning.
"No, I would never do that to an organisation. It's about leading an organisation and listening to its members," he said.
"We have athletes that come from over 80 nations, so there's plenty of different opinions, but the majority of athletes were very supportive of a return back to the region. We certainly have some that were not, but the majority - the great majority - were in support and are in support of going back. There was strong support across the members, the [player] council and the board."
Simon says this change of heart was not forced upon them by commercial realities, but accepts members would have "sacrificed a great deal" had the WTA Tour withdrawn from China for good..
The WTA's boycott lasted just over 16 months, although no tournaments could have taken place in the country during that period anyway because of the Covid pandemic.
"We've achieved some assurances from people that are close to Peng that she's safe and living with her family in Beijing," Simon said when asked whether the WTA had achieved anything. He says he has not yet been able to speak personally with Peng.
"We do also have some assurances that there won't be any issues with our players and staff while they are competing in China. And hopefully we have received some respect for the stance we took," he continued.
"We haven't seen anyone else take a stance such as we did. There hasn't been any other sporting leagues or any business that have - we took that strong stance, we stand behind it."
The men's Association of Tennis Professionals (ATP) Tour committed itself to 2023 events in Chengdu, Zhuhai, Shanghai and Beijing once China's Covid regulations eased, and the International Tennis Federation (ITF) said this month it is looking forward to bringing the World Tennis Tour back to China.
"We didn't go into this with expectations that anybody would [follow suit]," Simon added.
"I would have liked to have seen that, for sure, but we didn't expect it and we're not pointing fingers at anyone else."
Simon denies that by returning to China, the WTA has removed a crucial pillar of support for Peng.
"We are hoping by the return more progress will be made," he said. "We are very proud of the position we took.
"We're not going to let Peng be forgotten at this point in time."
Kai Ong, a China researcher at Amnesty International, said: "There's no independently-verifiable evidence that can prove Peng Shuai is truly safe and free.
"We're reminding the WTA of the structural hurdles many survivors of sexual violence in China face when seeking justice and remedy.
"Returning to China without continuing to push for an independent investigation into Peng's accusations risks perpetuating the systemic injustice faced by sexual violence survivors in the country."
'A welcome return from a tennis perspective'
The move was described as "very important" by French world number five Caroline Garcia, who said she understood the decision to return to China.
"The ATP and the ITF was already going back, and women's tennis is following," she told BBC Sport.
"In the past we have had some huge tournaments over there and I think it is an important swing for us in our calendar and I'm looking forward to it."
Former British number one Anne Keothavong, who captains the nation's Billie Jean King Cup team, and current British player Katie Boulter both stressed Peng's safety was their main concern.
But they added the future health of the WTA Tour - and the staging of more tournaments - had to be considered.
"From a tennis perspective, hopefully it will be a welcome return," said Keothavong.
"I don't know whether they have been able to investigate in the way that they would have liked, but tennis is a business. The WTA need to generate commercial revenue and the players need a circuit to compete."
Boulter added: "I think ultimately there's two things. One is that we hope Peng Shuai is OK and secondly it's just an excitement to have tournaments on the calendar.
"Sometimes I think we don't have enough tournaments and I really hope that we can get out there and enjoy it."
by ti-amieAryna Sabalenka says comments from Belarus president Alexander Lukashenko 'not helping'
Belarus president Alexander Lukashenko has publicly praised Arnya Sabalenka’s achievements in a speech; Sabalenka has previously spoken out about "hate" received in the locker room since Russia's invasion of Ukraine
Wednesday 19 April 2023 09:16, UK
Aryna Sabalenka fears comments from Belarus president Alexander Lukashenko may make her even more unpopular on the WTA Tour and insists she would "stop the war" in Ukraine if she could.
The world No 2 spoke last month about the "hate" she encountered in the locker room amid strained relations between some players following Russia's invasion of Ukraine, which was supported by its ally Belarus.
Lukashenko celebrated Sabalenka's Australian Open victory in January and said more recently that people knew which country she hailed from even if she was playing under a neutral flag.
In March 2022, tennis' governing bodies barred players from Russia and Belarus from competing under the name or flag of either country following the war, requiring them to play under neutral flags.
"I'm pretty sure that it's not helping," Sabalenka told reporters in Stuttgart on Tuesday when asked about Lukashenko's comments. "I don't know what to say because he can comment [on] my game, he can comment whatever he wants to.
"I have nothing to do with politics...If Ukrainians will hate me more after his speech, then what can I do? If they feel better by hating me, I'm happy to help them with that. They can do that.
"But the rest, if I could stop the war, I would do that, but unfortunately it's not in my hands and it's not under my control."
The 24-year-old said she keeps away from the internet as much as possible to avoid reading negative comments.
"I'll be able to focus on myself and on my game and not get too depressed about this situation," she added.
Sabalenka is playing at the Stuttgart Open this week after withdrawing from the Charleston Open with a minor injury. She will face Barbora Krejcikova in the second round of the clay-court event after receiving a bye in the opener.
by ti-amie This has been rumored for a couple of years now. Sad if it's true.
22/04/2023 16:30
MAJOR CHANGES INCOMING FOR WTA 250 TOURNAMENTS WITH TOP 30 NOT ABLE TO PLAY
Some major changes are coming for WTA 250 tournaments in the future as the tournament director of the Ostrava Open revealed in a recent interview.
According to Tomáš Petera who is the tournament director of the WTA 500 event in Ostrava, the lower level of WTA events won't be able to feature the top 30 ranked players starting next year which will create a lot of chaos in the sport. According to Petera multiple events are now fighting in the background for a chance to be upgraded to a WTA 500 event in order to retain the ability to attract the best players.
It's unclear why the change is being made because WTA events struggle to attract huge crowds as it is and this will make things worse for plenty of them. Plenty of them might be done all together as Petera noted that the upgrade costs a lot of money which some of them can't be afforded. We will provide more info when we have them.
Bitch from Brno
@broken_necklace Tomáš Petera head organizator of WTA 500 in Ostrava just said that in 2024 there will be major change in tournaments. He said that top 30 will not be able to play WTA 250! And those tournaments will have to upgrade their licence which is super expensive so we may lost them.
6:46 AM · Apr 21, 2023
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125.3K
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Apr 21
About Ostrava. There is a chance they will get licence for Moscow Kremlin cup. In autumn. If they will not. They will try to get upgrade of licence(not sure why since It’s already 500v, But he said that) and tournament will take a place in February. Their fighting with Linz.
Again this is all rumor at this point.
by ponchi101 But it seems to make no sense. I don't understand it.
by ti-amie I first heard this maybe 3-5 years ago and nothing came of it. I can't imagine anyone other than Steve Simon has worked so hard to destroy the WTA tour.
by mmmm8 Are they just going to let them all upgrade to 500 if they can afford to (within reason for the calendar), or are they still aiming to maintain more 250s than 500s. Because if it's the first one, then it's just a money grab, but at least it makes logical sense
by ti-amie David Law is arguing for the merger of the tours here. The WTA is poorly managed, has little to no visibility in sport despite it being the best sport for women in terms of money which is saying a lot given the difference between what Iga and Carlitos were paid, and a merger would reward the incompetence of WTA management. JMHO
DG
@Bestof5forever
Apr 23
Surrendering that women’s tennis cannot be equal and they must rely on the men.
And the men must hold a weight around their ankles as they try to gain parity with other professional sports
by ponchi101 The Bogota ATP tournament folded. It was unsustainable, and therefore the ATP stopped it. The WTA tourney remains.
I really don't know how the economics for either tour work.
by ti-amie Some are arguing that the WTA is presenting an inferior product. I left out all of the comparisons between the WNBA and the WTA. If I recall correctly the WNBA is hugely subsidized by the NBA. There is more publicity around the WNBA and women's basketball in general right now so at least they're trying. Also one of the top retired WNBA stars works with the TNT crew during the regular season.
That said I don't think the pay levels are remotely equal. Someone posted that the minimum pay level in the WNBA is $125k? No NBA player would even get out of bed for that amount of money. And yet Iga, who pretty much romped through her tournament the way Carltos did, made $373k less in prize money.
There is only one resolution that I see, and right now the ATP can do like this guy.
by ponchi101 The average salary for a WNBA player is $147K. Remember that the reason Brittney Griner was playing in Russia was because that salary is not enough.
Devil's advocate. Suppose the WTA becomes unviable. Prize money drops and tournaments start to fold. Does joining the ATP really solves the problem? And if so, how much will the men be willing to put down? One thing is to subsidize; let's say, the WTA section of the tournaments will get an increase (a 500's winner gets at least $250K). Another thing would be for the prize money to be the same, because I really doubt that the men will take that much of a cut from their prize money to subsidize the women (the subsidy will come from their pockets).
Last. The NBA has far deeper pockets than the ATP. Subsidizing the WNBA is a good thing because it is the Association that does it, not the players.
by ti-amie I was curious if they consider the price of the car as part of the total payout. I looked up the model given in the tournament post and found this (US dollars)
How much is the Porsche Taycan GTS in the US?
The 2023 Porsche Taycan starts at $86,700, which is in the middle of the luxury electric car class. Above the base model, trims rise in price all the way up to the $190,000 Taycan Turbo S Cross Turismo.Dec 20, 2022
by meganfernandez
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 8:23 pm
The average salary for a WNBA player is $147K. Remember that the reason Brittney Griner was playing in Russia was because that salary is not enough.
Devil's advocate. Suppose the WTA becomes unviable. Prize money drops and tournaments start to fold. Does joining the ATP really solves the problem? And if so, how much will the men be willing to put down? One thing is to subsidize; let's say, the WTA section of the tournaments will get an increase (a 500's winner gets at least $250K). Another thing would be for the prize money to be the same, because I really doubt that the men will take that much of a cut from their prize money to subsidize the women (the subsidy will come from their pockets).
Last. The NBA has far deeper pockets than the ATP. Subsidizing the WNBA is a good thing because it is the Association that does it, not the players.
Dang, I'd be more than happy to make $150k for half the year! I know that's why a lot of WNBA players also play overseas in their off-season, but I'd just find a part-time gig here. Guessing Russia will have a recruitment problem after Greiner's arrest. Who in their right mind would go play there now?
by meganfernandez
ti-amie wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 7:40 pm
David Law is arguing for the merger of the tours here. The WTA is poorly managed, has little to no visibility in sport despite it being the best sport for women in terms of money which is saying a lot given the difference between what Iga and Carlitos were paid, and a merger would reward the incompetence of WTA management. JMHO
DG
@Bestof5forever
Apr 23
Surrendering that women’s tennis cannot be equal and they must rely on the men.
And the men must hold a weight around their ankles as they try to gain parity with other professional sports
Wonder why it's so hard to find good management for the WTA. Salary for the C-suite?
Dang, I'd be more than happy to make $150k for half the year! I know that's why a lot of WNBA players also play overseas in their off-season, but I'd just find a part-time gig here. Guessing Russia will have a recruitment problem after Greiner's arrest. Who in their right mind would go play there now?
Non-Americans in the region. But any American, athlete or not, going to Russia at the moment is nuts.
Wonder why it's so hard to find good management for the WTA. Salary for the C-suite?
I wonder why the WTA cannot find a good woman-manager. Just about the optics: not a good look to have a man running the show.
Remember Stacy who got rid of all the small European tournaments and moved the WTA to Asia after the US Open? She couldn't foresee the pandemic, no one could, but those small tournaments usually had good attendance. Instead we get cavernous empty stands.
The money is going somewhere and it sure isn't to the players.
by Suliso
meganfernandez wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2023 12:33 am
Dang, I'd be more than happy to make $150k for half the year! I know that's why a lot of WNBA players also play overseas in their off-season, but I'd just find a part-time gig here. Guessing Russia will have a recruitment problem after Greiner's arrest. Who in their right mind would go play there now?
Sure, but there are other places to go to in Europe for extra cash during the off season. Turkey, Italy and Germany all have strong leagues.
by ti-amieFarewell Mubadala Silicon Valley Classic?
April 25, 2023
Is elite WTA tennis finished in the Bay Area? It sure looks that way.
According to multiple sources, the Mubadala Silicon Valley Classic (MSVC) will not be played this year at San Jose State.
Inside Tennis got word of the move over two months ago. And recently there have been additional confirmations. But there still has not been any official notice of the move.
The WTA event was first staged in 1971 in San Francisco. If it leaves the Bay Area, it would be the first time in 134 years that the region lacked a truly elite level tennis tournament.
In February, reliable industry sources informed Inside Tennis that the tourney had been sold to venture capitalist Mark Ein, who owns Washington DC’s Citi Open. Analysts suggested that Ein, who had also owned the Washington Kastles, would fold the San Jose event into his own Washington tourney.
On February 20, we tweeted: “Mubadala Silicon Valley Classic Sold: Sources indicate San Jose WTA tourney…has been sold to businessman Mark Ein & #MubadalaSiliconValleyClassic…will be folded into his Citibank Open.” No one contradicted our tweet.
In fact, additional sources confirmed it, and it became clear that the tourney would not be returning to its San Jose State site. And apparently Mubadala will no longer be a sponsor. The investment company did not respond to our inquiries.
Inside Tennis then posted a second tweet, saying we had additional confirmation that the tourney would be leaving. Again, no one disputed our tweet. Eventually we got through to Ein, who said he hadn’t purchased the MSVC. But when we asked him other questions, such as are you trying to buy it, are others trying to buy it or is it going to be held somewhere else this year, Ein refused to comment.
Mark Ein has done tremendous good for tennis, yet it was a curious conversation. The WTA’s well-respected CEO, Steve Simon, twice told Inside Tennis that his group hadn’t been notified of any change. Most recently, on April 19, he wrote us: “As of this date we have not received a request for the event to move. We are aware that there have been discussions surrounding a potential move of the event, but, again, nothing has been submitted for the WTA’s review and consideration.”
The tourney is still listed on the WTA schedule, but there is no ticket information. The tourney’s communication director has not returned our emails. For the first time in 41 years, the tourney hasn’t been in contact with Inside Tennis’s marketing department.
Co-founded 52 years ago by Billie Jean King, the Bay Area tourney played a critical role in women’s sports and was the longest running all-women tennis tourney in the world. The Bay Area’s premier men’s event, San Jose’s SAP Open, that traced its origins back to 1889, departed in 2013.
In 1971 Billie Jean beat Rosie Casals to win the first title at the San Francisco Civic Auditorium. Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova soon became staples. Venus’s 1994 emergence was the most ballyhooed debut in tennis history. Seles, Graf, Clijsters, Davenport and Sharapova all shined. Players of color – from Rosie Casals to the Williams sisters, Madison Keys, Naomi Osaka and Coco Gauff – were featured.
When it was the Bank of the West Classic, it thrived for 20 years at Stanford. The tourney seemed pitch perfect. Spectators took in the beauty of the breathtaking campus and the fan-friendly Taube Family Tennis Center. Willie Mays, Barry Bonds and Richard Williams all appeared. The press room sizzled. But as Indian Wells, the Canadian Open, DC and Cincinnati got bigger, the Bay Area tourney seemed to lose its luster.
Then a big Stanford donor didn’t want a commercial tourney on campus and the Bank of the West ended its sponsorship. In 2018 the tourney moved to San Jose State. Writer Bruce Jenkins soon noted, “Attendance was bleak, the atmosphere was largely tepid and the element of star power had vanished…People were wondering whether it had a future.”
Tournament owner IMG did their best – the site improved greatly. But going up against the Olympics was tough, and the tourney had bad luck – for example, Serena lost in the first round in 2018. But last year there was an extraordinary draw. Seven of the world’s top 15 players were on hand, including Coco Gauff. Crowds were good, the energy was high. Russian Daria Kasatkina, who’d just announced she was gay and who’d come out against the Ukrainian war, won the title, in the tradition of a tournament that for six decades was often on the cutting edge.
But now the trailblazing event seems to be departing. If so, there won’t be a big tennis event west of Ohio during the key summer months. And all we’ll have is memories, and the hope that someday the Bay Area will again stage a truly elite event.
by ponchi101 A lot of tradition going out the window.
by ti-amieAsh Barty: ‘What I miss the most is the thrill of the fight’
Courtney Walsh
The former tennis No 1 on never having been busier since retiring, attempts to slow down with her first child on the way – and some worrisome form on the golf course
Thu 11 May 2023 07.43 BST
Fifteen months since deciding to step away from professional tennis, Ash Barty cuts a relaxed figure in the back yard of her Brisbane home as her beloved dogs play in the background and the former world No 1 contemplates the next chapter of her life. A recent dip in temperature in south-east Queensland has brought some relief to the expectant mother who, after a whirlwind year that has belied her expectations of retirement, will “shut up shop” after completing a final ambassadorial role on Monday.
The three-time grand slam champion, who is pregnant with her first child, has found the 15 months since she decided to step away from professional tennis both exciting and challenging. From publishing her autobiography My Dream Time to mentoring young players such as the rising star Olivia Gadecki, from competing in a golf exhibition in the United States to her coming role as the face of the Australian Made Week campaign, Barty has been busier than she could ever have imagined.
“There were periods where I felt like I had no idea what I was doing and then there were other periods where I felt like there weren’t enough hours in the day,” she says. “The book tour … was a big project that took a lot of time and took a lot of energy. We wanted to do it well, but emotionally and mentally, it probably sapped more out of me than I realised.
“But it was awesome. I think it was a really nice way to kind of have that line in the sand, to literally close the chapter and look to what’s next. Then a few months ago, our world and our future was tipped on its head [with the pregnancy]. It’s been challenging. But it’s also been unique and, probably, everything I could have asked for.”
The 27-year-old has travelled extensively across Australia and internationally since her retirement in March 2022, for endeavours related to her work and foundation, but also for pleasure. Highlights included her first visit to Uluru, where she coached kids in the shadows of the famous sandstone monolith, and cheering on compatriot Cam Smith at St Andrews in the 150th Open. She also headed to New Zealand on a honeymoon with husband Garry Kissick, but the couple of have “put the passport” and their “suitcases away” ahead of parenthood.
Something that has surprised Barty over the past year is the amount of tennis she has watched, which was never a habit when she was a world-beater on the tour. She is satisfying her competitive urges on the golf course but not being able to strategise with her former coach Craig Tyzzer is among the joys she is missing in retirement.
“Probably what I miss the most is the thrill of the fight with Tyzz, sitting down together and working out a way to completely unravel our opponent,” she says. “That’s what I loved the most, the tactical side of the game and being able to make your opponent feel very uncomfortable and do that with my skills and my weapons. I do miss spending time with … all of my team. But our relationship hasn’t changed. The contact is just not as frequent and not as high octane, I will say. But the team footy tipping account is still alive and well, so the banter is still flying.”
Barty has partnered with Tyzzer and Jason Stoltenberg, who also coached Lleyton Hewitt to win Wimbledon, to form a consultancy mentoring promising Australian players. They “have different methods and philosophies” but share the common goal of “wanting to turn good people into great athletes [with] a genuine chance to do something special”.
“I think as an athlete, you become quite self-absorbed and very selfish, though in a good way,” she says. “It’s been really nice to kind of take the blinkers off and look at things with a broader view. It’s been really nice over the last 12 months to do some work with them. It is a different skill. I was very lucky to have them as part of my journey. To be able to do it together with them now and pick their brain, I’m really enjoying it.”
The growing rivalry between the world’s top two women, Iga Swiatek and Australian Open champion Aryna Sabalenka, has caught her eye in the lead-in to Roland Garros. Swiatek and Barty bonded over their love of reading and the Polish champion caught up with her predecessor as the world No 1 while in Brisbane in January.
The plight of another close friend in Simona Halep, who has been provisionally suspended since October after recording a positive drug test, has also snared Barty’s attention. Halep, 31, recently pleaded with authorities to hasten a hearing into the circumstances surrounding the dual-major winner’s positive for Roxadustat at the US Open in September.
“I love Simo and I respect Simo. I’ve spoken to her a little bit over the last 12 months or so, just checking in to see how she is going. She is an exceptional person,” Barty says. “I really sincerely hope that she has an opportunity to have her say and to explain her side, because there are always two sides to every story. I think you’d be struggling to find anyone who wouldn’t want to see her back out there doing what she absolutely loves, which is competing on a big stage against the best in the world.”
by ti-amieWomen’s tour only has itself to blame for tennis’ equal pay furore
Damning details show the women’s tennis tour needs to look itself in the mirror with the sport’s biggest gamble blowing up in its face.
John Millman
Let’s be clear. Equal prizemoney between men and women in tennis can be put to bed. It won’t be happening. Principles and tennis equality have been thrown out the window thanks to some poor decision making by the WTA.
It’s a contentious issue, equal prizemoney. Tennis, by a country mile, is leading the way in what its female athletes get paid. In 2022, seven of the top ten highest paid females in both endorsements and prizemoney were tennis players. But should the sport just be satisfied comparing itself to other female athletes or should they be in the conversation with their male counterparts?
The WTA’s last win happened back in 2007 when they secured equal pay at Grand Slams, however, they have been treading water ever since.
Unfortunately for the women, Grand Slams occupy only eight weeks of the tennis calendar each year. Outside of the Slams prizemoney in the men’s and women’s game is not equal and the pay gap is widening.
How is this even possible? How can the tour outside of the slams carry on favouring the male players in what they earn? It’s a shocking look and that shouldn’t sit well with the consumer. That is until you dive a little deeper and start to understand how the business of professional tennis is run.
The professional tour operates with two separate corporations, WTA (Women’s Tennis Association) and ATP (Association of Tennis Professionals), looking after their players’ interests. Their models and strategies are independent of one another, and their revenue is quite different. The cries from leading female players like Iga Swiatek and Viktoria Azarenka are getting louder as they seek prizemoney equal to that of the men for the whole year.
In 2021, the ATP recorded a revenue of $USD 176.8 million for the year against the WTA’s $87.8 million. While the ATP were kicking goals, through sponsorships, licensing and their flagship World Tour Finals, the WTA have blundered with own goals.
With the lack of a long-term strategy and revenue stagnating, the WTA went looking for a quick fix by selling nearly a quarter of their tour’s schedule to China. Even in the best of times it is difficult to get people through the gates in China and it is a bad look playing to empty stadiums, but it was when Covid hit and the country closed its borders that we saw the consequences of being over leveraged in one place on a “global tour.”
The WTA’s lack of strategy once again came to the fore with their principled stand on the disappearance of Chinese player, Peng Shuai. Principles didn’t last very long and were soon cast aside as the WTA lifted their ban on the Chinese tournaments despite Shuai’s whereabouts still being unknown.
The ATP governing body continually outperforms its WTA counterpart. Where the ATP send their flagship season ending World Tour Finals to packed out stadiums in tennis loving cities like London and Milan, the WTA attempt to build their game to the empty stadiums of Shenzhen and Fort Worth.
The women have had equal pay in Grand Slam tennis for 25 years and it is time for them to receive equal pay right across the board. The WTA have had more than enough time to achieve that goal. Our female tennis players are some of the best athletes in the world and deserve to be paid equally but unfortunately, they are represented by an underperforming body.
Tennis can be the envy of all sports when it finally achieves true equality, but I feel for that to happen it needs to be under one umbrella and based on track record that is with the ATP. Until then equal pay is a pipe dream and won’t happen.
John Millman is an Aussie tennis veteran, with one ATP Tour title to his name and a victory over Roger Federer in the fourth round of the 2018 US Open.
by ponchi101 The guys at ESPN L. America are saying that Halep has been hit with a further doping charge.
Not looking good for her.
by ti-amie
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Fri May 19, 2023 7:21 pm
The guys at ESPN L. America are saying that Halep has been hit with a further doping charge.
Not looking good for her.
This is the drug she tested positive for back in August.
Roxadustat
Medication
Roxadustat, sold under the brand name Evrenzo, is an anti-anemia medication. Roxadustat is a HIF prolyl-hydroxylase inhibitor that increases endogenous production of erythropoietin and stimulates production of hemoglobin and red blood cells.
Why did the FDA reject roxadustat?
Data at the FDA Advisory Committee meeting showed that roxadustat was clearly efficacious for treating anemia, but roxadustat had numerous safety signals including increased thromboses, seizures, major infections, and even higher mortality.
The new charge.
19 May 2023 Simona Halep receives additional Tennis Anti-Doping Charge
The International Tennis Integrity Agency (ITIA) confirms that Romanian tennis player Simona Halep has been charged with a further and separate breach of the Tennis Anti-Doping Programme (TADP), relating to irregularities in her Athlete Biological Passport (ABP). Ms Halep has been provisionally suspended since October 2022, as a result of testing positive for prohibited substance Roxadustat at the US Open in August of last year.
The ABP programme, developed by the World Anti-Doping Agency and incorporated into the TADP under the World Anti-Doping Code (WADC), is a method by which anti-doping organisations monitor various blood parameters over time, to identify potential Anti-Doping Rule Violations (ADRVs).
The additional charge of an Adverse Passport Finding was based on an assessment of Ms. Halep's ABP profile by an independent ABP Expert Panel. That charge is separate and in addition to the existing Roxadustat charge from August 2022 which triggered Ms. Halep’s original provisional suspension.
Nicole Sapstead, Senior Director for Anti-Doping at the ITIA, said: “We understand that today’s announcement adds complexity to an already high-profile situation. From the outset of this process – and indeed any other at the ITIA – we have remained committed to engaging with Ms. Halep in an empathetic, efficient, and timely manner.
“We do, of course, appreciate there is a great deal of media interest in these cases. It would be inappropriate for us to comment on specifics until the conclusion of the process, but we will continue to engage with the Sport Resolutions independent tribunal and Ms. Halep’s representatives as expeditiously as possible.”
The ITIA is the delegated third party, under the World Anti-Doping Code of the International Tennis Federation, the international governing body for the sport of tennis and signatory of the Code. The ITIA is responsible for the management and administration of anti-doping across professional tennis in accordance with the TADP.
Ends
Notes for editors
In accordance with the WADC, the ITIA operates the International Registered Testing Pool (IRTP), which subjects just under 300 tennis players to regular ABP testing as part of its in-competition and out-of-competition testing program. In general terms, the top 100 ranked singles players from both the ATP and WTA are mainstays of the IRTP. As one of the world’s highest-ranked players, Ms. Halep is included in the IRTP.
The statement for Ms. Halep’s first charge – which triggered her provisional suspension - can be read here:
by ti-amie Very bad news for women's tennis. The drug is, in my non medical opinion, a way to blood dope without using Djokovic's not a hyperbaric machine.
Anomalies in her ABP just make it worse.
Now, unless somehow her mother cooked her favorite Romanian dish and somehow the mother's medication got mixed in the sauce her career is over.
Since they didn't take Sharapova's titles away from her after she admitted to doping for ten years despite all the rantings I'm seeing on that WTA fan site I don't see how they can take Halep's away.
by ti-amie Also Cahill had better be issuing a "I had no idea" statement in 5, 4, 3, 2...
by ti-amie
by ponchi101 Remember Cahill hedged his statement. He said there was no way Simona had taken any PED KNOWINGLY. The possibility for a mistake was there.
About Simona. The idea that any tribunal would be partial against her is ridiculous; she is a beloved champion, and somebody in good stature with the tour. So the "they are after me" card has to be examined further.
I am still on her side. I say Cahill's word is an asset, but if she still took something by accident, the guidelines are clear.
I hope that will be the case and she can come back, if she feels so, after a shorter suspension.
by ti-amie
by patrick Look like the media darlings that won multiple Slams have been "skirting around" the rules.
by JazzNU
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Fri May 19, 2023 7:21 pm
The guys at ESPN L. America are saying that Halep has been hit with a further doping charge.
Not looking good for her.
It was never looking good for her. People want to be so damn optimistic about her case, but substitute her for a player in the top 50 that most don't care about and this wouldn't be the response. Also, remove likable Darren Cahill, a man that was not her coach anywhere near the period she tested positive and couldn't possibly know what she was putting into her body day in and day out, coming to her defense and that somehow being enough for most to determine, this must be mistake, and the response is also different. Case in point, Patrick has been just as forcefully defending her the entire time and no one puts forth that as proof of her innocence and instead blame him for the doping, positive he's the one who put the substance in her system, even though he has a tennis academy and oversees many tour players' coaching and Simona's the only one we know of testing positive in his group of players.
Reminder - the cycling community is the one that provided the most information about the drug that she tested positive for. This isn't mild doping and it being accidental the way she's claiming that it is is very tough to prove where this substance is concerned. And triggering that biological passport is particularly damning and likely means this is it. The tale she's been attempting to spin in the past several months is highly likely just that, a tale. Her PR has been excellent though because people stay defending her and making her out to be a victim. Watching people today realize maybe likability isn't the best test for determining if someone is positive of a doping charge has been interesting to say the least.
by JazzNU For those that don't remember about what the drug class is for the first offense and also more info on the biological passport.
by ashkor87 These hairsplitting issues are getting too complicated..maybe we need to a world where either 'nothing is permitted' or 'everything is permitted' - the current rules benefit mostly lawyers and test labs ...
by JazzNU
ti-amie wrote: ↑Fri May 19, 2023 8:21 pm
Very bad news for women's tennis. The drug is, in my non medical opinion, a way to blood dope without using Djokovic's not a hyperbaric machine.
Anomalies in her ABP just make it worse.
Now, unless somehow her mother cooked her favorite Romanian dish and somehow the mother's medication got mixed in the sauce her career is over.
Since they didn't take Sharapova's titles away from her after she admitted to doping for ten years despite all the rantings I'm seeing on that WTA fan site I don't see how they can take Halep's away.
Someone on Reddit mentioned Petr Korda keeping his Aussie Open title and how soon after winning he tested positive. I think the question is whether or not the rules have been changed since he was able to keep his title. I think Sharapova is a separate case since the drug she took wasn't on the banned list at the time of her titles.
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Fri May 19, 2023 7:21 pm
The guys at ESPN L. America are saying that Halep has been hit with a further doping charge.
Not looking good for her.
It was never looking good for her. People want to be so damn optimistic about her case, but substitute her for a player in the top 50 that most don't care about and this wouldn't be the response. Also, remove likable Darren Cahill, a man that was not her coach anywhere near the period she tested positive and couldn't possibly know what she was putting into her body day in and day out, coming to her defense and that somehow being enough for most to determine, this must be mistake, and the response is also different. Case in point, Patrick has been just as forcefully defending her the entire time and no one puts forth that as proof of her innocence and instead blame him for the doping, positive he's the one who put the substance in her system, even though he has a tennis academy and oversees many tour players' coaching and Simona's the only one we know of testing positive in his group of players.
Reminder - the cycling community is the one that provided the most information about the drug that she tested positive for. This isn't mild doping and it being accidental the way she's claiming that it is is very tough to prove where this substance is concerned. And triggering that biological passport is particularly damning and likely means this is it. The tale she's been attempting to spin in the past several months is highly likely just that, a tale. Her PR has been excellent though because people stay defending her and making her out to be a victim. Watching people today realize maybe likability isn't the best test for determining if someone is positive of a doping charge has been interesting to say the least.
I don't know if you visit the big WTA fansite but some of the responses over there have been off the hook.
As you say they're going after Patrick Mouratoglou because for reasons I've never understood he's hated by some. As for Cahill we don't really know what the time period is regarding the ABP (blood passport) but people are jumping to really wild conclusions. I think that at some point he will have to say something but he will probably wait until after the timeline of the ABP is released to the public. The ABP protocol was started in 2013 after the Lance Armstrong fiasco. When I first read about the drug involved I said here (I think) that the charge was serious and involved blood doping.
She's spinning conspiracy theories faster than TFG or Ghouliani in her defense. An independent tribunal of who? Family, those indebted one way or the other to her family, friends?
It doesn't look good for her at all.
by JazzNU
ti-amie wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 12:50 am
I don't know if you visit the big WTA fansite but some of the responses over there have been off the hook.
She's spinning conspiracy theories faster than TFG or Ghouliani in her defense. An independent tribunal of who? Family, those indebted one way or the other to her family, friends?
It doesn't look good for her at all.
No, not on it, not even sure I know it. I've been reading people's thoughts on Tennis Reddit more than anywhere else on this one since they can be more full fledged thoughts.
The conspiracies I've seen since the start against Patrick have been wild. They've been completely nonsensical.
And the independent tribunal is hilarious. She's also been acting like she got ahold of the US Open sample and that's what the people she hired tested. Girl stop. You've known all this was coming and were trying to turn the public in your favor even more so before this blow hit.
And yes exactly about the passport. They wanted another way to monitor because the cheaters are always a step ahead of them on the actual drugs but anomalies can jump out through the passport that aren't caught with the individual doping tests. No matter the accidental reasons she has been putting forth, people who know much more about the drug have said that "accidental" is incredibly unlikely to occur with this. I won't be surprised if she's hit with the customary blood doping ban.
by ponchi101 You all are more informed than I am.
What about her claim that the sample was contaminated? I understand that you always have two samples, precisely because if one is tainted, the second assists in the process.
Is that a possibility?
by skatingfan
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 3:03 am
You all are more informed than I am.
What about her claim that the sample was contaminated? I understand that you always have two samples, precisely because if one is tainted, the second assists in the process.
Is that a possibility?
Was it the sample that she asserts was contaminated, or was it the supplement she took?
ti-amie wrote: ↑Fri May 19, 2023 8:21 pm
Very bad news for women's tennis. The drug is, in my non medical opinion, a way to blood dope without using Djokovic's not a hyperbaric machine.
Anomalies in her ABP just make it worse.
Now, unless somehow her mother cooked her favorite Romanian dish and somehow the mother's medication got mixed in the sauce her career is over.
Since they didn't take Sharapova's titles away from her after she admitted to doping for ten years despite all the rantings I'm seeing on that WTA fan site I don't see how they can take Halep's away.
Someone on Reddit mentioned Petr Korda keeping his Aussie Open title and how soon after winning he tested positive. I think the question is whether or not the rules have been changed since he was able to keep his title. I think Sharapova is a separate case since the drug she took wasn't on the banned list at the time of her titles.
And Sharapova never denied that she took it shortly after it was banned or that she had been using it for years.
by ti-amie Someone I never agree with made the point that Halep may have been pressing the "contamination" story and complaining about the delay and "harassment" because she knew the ABP results were coming. If she were cleared before the ABP results came in I don't know if they would've been able to continue gathering information on her from her blood samples.
JazzNU wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 12:40 am
Someone on Reddit mentioned Petr Korda keeping his Aussie Open title and how soon after winning he tested positive. I think the question is whether or not the rules have been changed since he was able to keep his title. I think Sharapova is a separate case since the drug she took wasn't on the banned list at the time of her titles.
And Sharapova never denied that she took it shortly after it was banned or that she had been using it for years.
Yes, and also, since weren't talking about Maria, it should be mentioned here since it's been pointed out many times on social media that Halep was not exactly supportive of Sharapova when she tested positive for doping. To me, what she said wasn't all that bad, but it can't be denied that she was one of the ones on record speaking about her and it wasn't a, no big deal all is forgiven type of statement.
by JazzNU
ti-amie wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 4:40 pm
Someone I never agree with made the point that Halep may have been pressing the "contamination" story and complaining about the delay and "harassment" because she knew the ABP results were coming. If she were cleared before the ABP results came in I don't know if they would've been able to continue gathering information on her from her blood samples.
Definitely agree that she knew this was coming out soon, she's ramped up her PR campaign in recent weeks and it just seems highly unlikely that it's a coincidence. Her appeal date was set and postponed twice I believe with the new date coming soon and it just is hard to believe she wasn't told a bit why there was a postponement or at the very least told why there typically are postponements and they decided on the slick campaign to try to gain public favor.
BUT, I don't think the timing matters on the second result. ITIA used clear legal terminology in their announcement of the second charge, it can stand on it's own, doesn't need to be tied to the first in any way.
by JazzNU
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 3:03 am
You all are more informed than I am.
What about her claim that the sample was contaminated? I understand that you always have two samples, precisely because if one is tainted, the second assists in the process.
Is that a possibility?
The contamination thing is strictly her own narrative right now. She's drummed up her own experts that are saying she's clean and it was a contaminated supplement and that she's provided evidence proving this. None of that evidence has been judged by WADA or another body as valid at this point. That's what will be determined in her appeal.
Both of her samples were tested, both of them tested positive for the the banned drug.
We've seen people get many of these bans reduced based on accident and mistake or something that means it was unintentional. In those cases, almost always, they have been something similar to a steroid found commonly in other food or substances. So as ridiculous as some of the excuses that players have come up with, they are talking about something a bit more like a common, like for instance, the ones that have popped up in many South American athletes cases related to meat contamination.
Halep's case is different because it's a different class of drug, one that is uncommon in other products and uses. Going by what those in the cycling community had to say, accidentally taking it in some way or another is very rare. So Halep is going to need some blockbuster evidence to prove her case. Going off of just a guess, if she's claiming this is evidence that would clear her, I would hope that at a minimum, the supplement she's saying was contaminated was made by a manufacturer who makes the banned drug along with the supplement in the same facility. That would be the starting point for me, if she can't prove at least that, I'm thinking full ban because the contamination will make little sense if at least that isn't true.
by ti-amie I keep reading that no one has ever been able to overturn an ABP violation.
by ponchi101
ashkor87 wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 12:26 am
These hairsplitting issues are getting too complicated..maybe we need to a world where either 'nothing is permitted' or 'everything is permitted' - the current rules benefit mostly lawyers and test labs ...
I forgot to comment on this post.
if we go back to a NOTHING IS PERMITTED, then you run into some problems immediately. Define NOTHING. Aspirin, paracetamol, OTC pain killers. They would be voided, and any athlete using something as simple as Tylenol would be banned. NOTHING is permitted is impractical.
How about EVERYTHING is permitted? It would benefit athletes from countries where such practice would be state sanctioned (the USSR in the past, Russia and China today) and the athletes from those countries would have the regime's apparatus behind them, or athletes that would be wealthy enough to hire the best chemists to provide the best PED's. We already see a discrepancy in wealthy athletes being able to train at better places, have better access to better doctors/physicians, and such.
Sometimes, simple is no possible. I think this is one of those cases.
by ashkor87 Well, today's rules benefit players who can afford the lawyers...
by ponchi101 That too. Being wealthy will give you an advantage on every aspect of life.
But Simona certainly can afford the lawyers and yet, there she is.
by ti-amie
by ti-amie
by ashkor87 I certainly would prefer 'everything is permitted' - 'nothing is permitted' would still require testing and all the rest of the ringamarole..if players want to damage their own bodies, let them! Or they can follow the example of that much reviled champion- Djokovic.
by JTContinental I kinda think someone on her team should change Simona's Twitter password
The first comment I read under this statement said "switch to pickleball."
by ponchi101
ashkor87 wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 3:56 am
I certainly would prefer 'everything is permitted' - 'nothing is permitted' would still require testing and all the rest of the ringamarole..if players want to damage their own bodies, let them! Or they can follow the example of that much reviled champion- Djokovic.
It is not only about damaging your body. Lendl said so in the 80's, but he was referring to marihuana and cocaine. Those things could be open for discussion.
But the science of PED's is well developed. You truly gain an advantage, as can be seen from Lance Armstrong's case, or the outstanding performances of state sanctioned athletes (the USSR/East Germany/China programs at the Olympic games of the past, the Sochi Olympics debacle). If that were to be allowed, then all fairness would go out the window.
Why only Djokovic? Was Federer ever involved in any sort of speculation of PED's? Sampras? Lendl? Most champions have been clean throughout their career; the ones that were found out to have been using PED's are actually a minority.
by ashkor87 Djokovic because I don't think he takes anything at all....most tennis players do not, in fact, take any PEDs..but yes, it is a tricky question..these days, tennis players are almost superhuman physically ...as are all professional athletes,..when someone can afford the best trainers and some cannot, fairness has left the room long ago..
by ponchi101 Well, absolute fairness is indeed difficult because you would have to start by defining it. Is it fair that somebody needs to get from Monte Carlo to Barcelona by driving, while the wealthy fly private? Well, would seem like one is certainly more convenient, but is it "unfair"? Is it fair that some people can rent a full house at Wimbledon Village for the fortnight, while others are extending the three-star hotel reservation on a daily basis (if they are lucky)?
Heck, Lendl used to have specially built courts at home, identical to the next slam's courts. Privileged? Sure. Unfair? I would not go that far.
by ti-amie
ashkor87 wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 3:49 pm
Djokovic because I don't think he takes anything at all....most tennis players do not, in fact, take any PEDs..but yes, it is a tricky question..these days, tennis players are almost superhuman physically ...as are all professional athletes,..when someone can afford the best trainers and some cannot, fairness has left the room long ago..
He still uses that hyperbaric/nonhyperbaric chamber doesn't he? That's why what happens with Halep will be interesting. She was allegedly blood doping with medication while the ATP tour has pretended he doesn't use that chamber which is another form of blood doping.
by ti-amie
Jannik Schneider
@schnejan
I was quiet a few days to review the case and watch the reactions (and I continue to work on it and will publish more when im sure) but so far I agree to Nick regarding the Halep case. It amazes me how pro active she is communicating and how unreflected some push this 1/
Halep tested positive for roxadustat, an anti-anaemia drug which stimulates the production of red blood cells. Experts regarded this as the first !public! positive blood doping case ever. Experts told me its very difficult to prove that this case could be solved by contamination
A small reminder that in 2021 only !2! of all normal in-competition tests in pro Tennis have been blood tests. The rest urine only. You cant catch potential dopers during tournaments that want to dope with EPO, own blood doping or similar things to increase the red blood cells
So if you have enough money to hire a good doctor (that tells you when exactly to take epo or when to change your blood and when to stop) you could safely blooddope in Tennis (generally speaking) specially in a second week of a slam when you need that extra 1 or 2% endurance
Yes, there are more blood tests since the start of the biological blood passport in Tennis. But in a research 2022 for Mail on Sunday we found the ITIA invited players to secure time slots for blood-doping tests before this 22 Miami Open, the US Open 21 and in Paris 19
So it is even more amazing that Halep was charged with a second doping offence last week over "irregularities" in her biological passport. Which normally means in general that development of bloodtests showed not natural blood data that only could be explained by blood doping
Generally speaking its said but very likely that there will be players competiting in Paris that are knowingly blooddoping. We have a problem in Tennis as long as there are not more bloodtests without prior notice that scares potential dopers. And I didnt even start with Tue's
Jannik Schneider
@schnejan
Freelance Journalist
Focus mainly on Tennis, Football, Doping, Sportpolitics, Mental Health and Taboos in Sports. contact: jannik.schneider@mailbox.org
by ti-amie Fan comment including some tea on the South American's who were caught.
Jannik Schneider is literally the only journalist covering this story with any sense of credibility or knowledge.
He's a truly great resource, I remember this podcast episode he did with Edmund Willison (a doping expert), and that's where the tea was spilled that in the South American contamination cases of BHM, Jarry, and more, the ITF did not even bother contacting the pharmacies these players claimed contaminated their supplements. That's when I knew anti-doping tennis was really hopeless (which is fine, other leagues/sports like association football, NBA, NFL, MLB, and more do not care about doping either), but the tennis community lives in this weird limbo where if someone they don't like is caught, they're a dirty cheater and should die, but if it's another person, then it's all a mistake and will be resolved soon.
Ever since the ITIA took over it does seem a lot more serious which makes sense cause it's led by people with actual experience of anti-doping in other organizations, that may in fact be why Halep and Ratoglou are running around and trying to pressure the hearing to happen NOW so that these people who actually know what they're doing don't find more evidence to build their case, or something.
In a way I feel bad for Simona cause if this was still in the ITF days, she could have said her ex-husband's sister-in law's best friend was a CKD patient and she went into her vitamin cupboard thinking the roxadustat was Vitamin C, and lo and behold she'd be getting ready to play RG in a week.
via @strong-era
by JTContinental Sloane Stephens talking about dealing with racism on social media, and how she feels that it has actually gotten worse for athletes in recent years despite the creation of software set to deter those comments, since they are easy to work around.
by ponchi101 Can't thank you for that link, Jt, but let's say it is appreciated.
Could the WTA have its own platform for SM? Could be easier to control that way (I mean the abuse).
by ti-amie
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Mon May 29, 2023 8:01 pm
Can't thank you for that link, Jt, but let's say it is appreciated.
Could the WTA have its own platform for SM? Could be easier to control that way (I mean the abuse).
The WTA have it's own what?! Have you seen their website? And let's not forget the fiasco that is WTA TV that's not available in the States because of shenanigans on their part?
When a fan site is posting better and more information on your tour than you are you have a big problem.
by ponchi101 Ok, but I was only at the COULD; I did not even reach the SHOULD...
by JTContinental I didn't see this posted anywhere, but feel free to delete if it has. Djokovic embroiled in controversy again about something he wrote on the camera after his 1st round win.
by ponchi101 I wish I knew more about the history of that entire region to have a proper opinion.
by ti-amie There was a lot of unrest over the weekend about Albanian mayors in majority Serbian areas.
by mmmm8
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2023 11:47 pm
I wish I knew more about the history of that entire region to have a proper opinion.
Kosovo is 90% Albanians but the North where unrest is happening is majority Serbian. Serbia (and Russia) never recognized Kosovo's independence. The EU (or UN?) directed Kosovo to provide more autonomy to the Northern regions some years ago, Kosovo hasn't and now ethnic Albanian mayors were elected because Serbs boycotted the elections. The unrest was triggered by the mayors taking office.
Djokovic's father is from Northern Kosovo.
Part of the reason Djokovic made controversy, I think, is his past lunch with an ethnic cleanser.
by Suliso In my opinion this is the case were exchange of territories would make sense. Few parts of northern Kosovo to Serbia and few remaining municipalities in Southern Serbia with Albanian majority to Kosovo. It was actually seriously proposed few years ago, but blocked by hardliners. It's silly to expect these two nationalities to live together happily ever after now. As the saying goes good fences make good neighbors.
I would rarely propose such a thing, but sometimes there is no better choice.
by skatingfan Have we had a discussion about the domestic violence allegations against Thiago Seyboth Wild?
Wild’s joy was evident as he celebrated his moment of glory, but he faced an uncomfortable question in his post match press conference as he was asked about domestic abuse claims made against him.
Former partner Thayane Lima is reported to have accused him of physical and psychological violence and he was asked about the incident in his post-match press conference.
When the subject was raised, Wild was quick to offer a dismissive response as he said: “I don’t think it’s a subject we should talk about it right here.
“I don’t think it’s a question you should be making to anybody. I don’t think it comes to you to decide whether it’s a place to be spoken of or not.”
by ponchi101 Busy days yesterday/day before yesterday at the press room.
Novak's Kosovo comments.
Sabalenka asked about the war.
Thiago SW asked about the domestic abuse allegations.
Of course, Sabalenka and SW did not bring the subject up. Novak did, when writing the message on the camera glass. I would have thought that he was inviting, at least, a little conversations on the subject, and perhaps even make a statement on his position. He has the platform, after all.
by mmmm8 Yes, Djokovic was for sure using his platform. If some are right about his potential political ambitions, it was also a bit strategic.
I'd say the question to Seybouth Wild is warranted and in public interest (whether he is guilty or innocent) and although he didn't bring it up, the situation invites him as it concerns him directly.
by ponchi101 I have said it before. Novak will be president of Serbia one day. Stating his position here would be a step in that direction.
My point was that all three seemed to be annoyed at the line of questions, but Novak was the one that invited it. Aryna and Thiago did not write anything on a camera glass; Novak did.
by ti-amie
THIAGO SEYBOTH WILD, THE BOMBSHELL TENNIS DOESN’T KNOW HOW TO DEFUSE: “MY GRANDFATHER TAUGHT HITLER LIFE”
by SEBASTIÁN FEST 3 June, 2023
PARIS – In the tournament of his life, Thiago Seyboth Wild missed the opportunity of a lifetime. First, because he had dominated the Japanese Yoshihito Nishioka for much of the match on Saturday and had a real chance to move into the round of 16 at Roland Garros. But, above all, because his time in Paris was marked by accusations of violence against his former partner, a subject that many international media will not let him pass: he managed to avoid talking about it this time, but in the next tournaments the question will come back, come back and come back. Because he doesn’t talk about it and because the accusations are getting worse and worse.
One sentence, quoted by the Brazilian newspaper “O Globo“, which has a high prestige and readership, is enough to give the dimension of the issue: “My family on my mother’s side is Nazi”.
During the match at the Simone Mathieu Stadium, perhaps the most beautiful stadium of the tournament, set in the middle of a greenhouse, Seyboth Wild took the breath away from the spectators: the dry power of his forehand is of boundless beauty, the offensive arrogance of his game is impressive.
This tennis player, several onlookers commented, cannot be ranked 172nd in the world. That “gillette” that he threw in a moment – the ball bounces and returns to his side of the net – brought back the memory of the great Spaniard Manolo Santana…. The list of praise for the Brazilian’s game is long, very long: there is talent, power, there is a lot of tennis. Although in the final set it was diluted: Nishioka won the match.
There is also an angry, very angry tennis player. The number of times Seyboth shouted at himself, the number of protests he initiated, the number of times he raised his arms, the number of times he scowled. That racquet thrown to the floor and smashed, deformed….
What is wrong with Seyboth Wild, why is he so angry at 23 years of age and with a career that is clearly taking off?
Questions that nobody was able to ask the Brazilian, because after winning in the second round and after losing in the third round he did not give the press conference that is customary in tennis. Journalists took it for granted that one of the revelations of the tournament, the man who eliminated world number two Daniil Medvedev, would be promoted by the ATP, would have a moment to express himself to the media, even to apologise for his very bad manners in the only press conference he gave.
Nicola Arzani, ATP communications director, explained to CLAY the reasons for Seyboth Wild’s no-show at a press conference: “For the second consecutive round, Thiago did all the interviews he was requested for. The meeting with the international print media did not take place just because there were no requests”.
Seyboth Wild only spoke to television. He told the Brazilian sports channel “Sportv” that he literally died physically, that he paid the toll of the three matches in the qualifying round and the five sets in the first round. And before the interview he made it clear that he does not want to talk about the accusations against him for domestic violence.
That is probably why the meeting with the international print media did not take place. The ATP understood that it was better for him not to open his mouth and Seyboth Wild left Paris without talking about his tennis or the allegations that were reported in detail in “O Globo” this week. If his idea is to continue being a tennis player, sooner or later those press conferences and the questions he doesn’t want to answer will come.
And they will be worse questions, because what “O Globo” published was amplified this weekend by “TV Globo”, the big Brazilian TV station.
The revelations, based on WhatsApp messages Seyboth Wild exchanged with Thayane Lima, with whom he cohabited under civil union for a year and a half, are shocking.
“Your mother doesn’t like gays, blacks and Jews, is that it?” asks Lima. The tennis player, tersely, replies “yes”.
In that exchange, Seyboth Wild comes clean: “My family on my mother’s side is Nazi. Literally.
He adds: “My great-grandfather, my mother’s father’s father’s father… was Hitler’s predecessor…. He was the one who brought him over from Austria and taught Hitler the life”.
In the messages revealed by “O Globo”, Seyboth Wild includes photos of his great-grandfather standing next to the leader of the Nazi genocide and highlights how Hitler stands “in a firm position” before him.
After learning of the publication of “O Globo”, the tennis player’s family made it known that they “vehemently repudiate” his comments, which include insults of all kinds to his partner and allusions to “poor and black (expletive)”.
Lima told the Brazilian newspaper that when she met him, she took it upon herself to help the tennis player regain his confidence, to make him realise what he was capable of (“I encouraged him to train even on Sundays”).
And in those whatsapps that went back and forth between the two, the player confesses to his partner that he spent thousands and thousands of dollars on alcohol and parties. And he thanks her: “Do you know what you did to me? You showed me that I deserved better than that. You did something for me that money can’t pay for.”
Despite these thanks, Seyboth Wild was extremely violent with his partner, to the point of twisting her finger under the table during a dinner with her parents. The influencer now lives in the United States and has no intention of returning to Brazil.
In view of the way the information about him has been going, the player sent a statement to “O Globo”.
“Faced with some articles and posts published this week about me, I want to clarify that the processes underway in Brazil, as well as a criminal proceeding in which I appear as a victim, are under secrecy. This means that I cannot make statements, comments or expose conversations, which should also apply to the other party,” he says, referring to his ex-partner.
“But above all I want to remember and reinforce that there was no trial, so I cannot be considered guilty. I have not yet received the summons issued by the Public Prosecutor’s Office in Rio de Janeiro because I no longer have a fixed residence in Brazil. I have spent the last few months training in Argentina or competing in other countries. The same goes for the other party, who was also not summoned because he does not live in Brazil. Anyway, my lawyers have already notified the courts of my parents’ address in Parana. At the moment I am totally focused on my career, back to my best level of play, and confident that my innocence will be proven in due time.”
via Amazonas Atual
by ponchi101 w.o.w.
by Owendonovan I just don't get being violent outside of self defense. No one likes it.
by meganfernandez
Owendonovan wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 4:19 am
I just don't get being violent outside of self defense. No one likes it.
Deep rage and other psychological problems that people don't know how to channel any other way. That behavior is learned from an early age.
by meganfernandez
mmmm8 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 2:35 pm
Yes, Djokovic was for sure using his platform. If some are right about his potential political ambitions, it was also a bit strategic.
I'd say the question to Seybouth Wild is warranted and in public interest (whether he is guilty or innocent) and although he didn't bring it up, the situation invites him as it concerns him directly.
I think nearly any question in the press room is warranted, beyond personally invasive questions and ones in clearly poor taste. Definitely questions about public accusations of this nature, absolutely. Wertheim disclosed that Wild's agent bullied the journalist afterward, trying to get a photo of his credential. Just awful.
In general, journalists should have a wide berth to pursue whatever stories they want. A player can always decline to answer. They have very little access to tennis players. They have to take advantage of the opportunity in press conferences.
I think nearly any question in the press room is warranted, beyond personally invasive questions and ones in clearly poor taste. Definitely questions about public accusations of this nature, absolutely. Wertheim disclosed that Wild's agent bullied the journalist afterward, trying to get a photo of his credential. Just awful.
In general, journalists should have a wide berth to pursue whatever stories they want. A player can always decline to answer. They have very little access to tennis players. They have to take advantage of the opportunity in press conferences.
A little off the subject.
What do you think of players/athletes that stonewall the interview? Marshall Lynch's famous "I am only here so I will not get fined" routine. Is that also fair game?
Serious question.
mmmm8 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 2:35 pm
Yes, Djokovic was for sure using his platform. If some are right about his potential political ambitions, it was also a bit strategic.
I'd say the question to Seybouth Wild is warranted and in public interest (whether he is guilty or innocent) and although he didn't bring it up, the situation invites him as it concerns him directly.
I think nearly any question in the press room is warranted, beyond personally invasive questions and ones in clearly poor taste. Definitely questions about public accusations of this nature, absolutely. Wertheim disclosed that Wild's agent bullied the journalist afterward, trying to get a photo of his credential. Just awful.
In general, journalists should have a wide berth to pursue whatever stories they want. A player can always decline to answer. They have very little access to tennis players. They have to take advantage of the opportunity in press conferences.
The story was already broken in a reputable (to my knowledge) Brazilian newspaper. The influencer/ex girlfriend made the texts where he admitted being a descendant of a "boy from brazil" so what was his agent going to get from bullying a tennis journalist doing what a journalist should do? Does he think his client will avoid the questions about these things going forward? Maybe Mr. Wild should go back to the Challenger circuit because as like Sabalenka will find out you can't duck out on these things.
by ti-amie
I put this here because it's a topic that goes beyond Roland Garros.
Matt “Pickleball Mcnasty” Manasse
@Matt_Manasse
·
10h
So what do we do? Besides making sure we add pickleball to the Grand Slam docket…
Kyrgios out hurts . Not sure where the talent is these days. men are actually doing well but historically struggle at RG. I LOVE Asia representing. It’s a 2 man race regardless…
by ponchi101 All I see is: a sport that was damn successful at reaching global audiences.
If we had not wanted that years ago, not tournaments outside the USA/GB/FR/AUS would have ever been started.
Look at is positively, and it is a raging success.
I think nearly any question in the press room is warranted, beyond personally invasive questions and ones in clearly poor taste. Definitely questions about public accusations of this nature, absolutely. Wertheim disclosed that Wild's agent bullied the journalist afterward, trying to get a photo of his credential. Just awful.
In general, journalists should have a wide berth to pursue whatever stories they want. A player can always decline to answer. They have very little access to tennis players. They have to take advantage of the opportunity in press conferences.
A little off the subject.
What do you think of players/athletes that stonewall the interview? Marshall Lynch's famous "I am only here so I will not get fined" routine. Is that also fair game?
Serious question.
I think so, occasionally. It's probably understandable at times, right? Haven't we all phoned something in at work now and then? But as a common practice, it's bad for the sport, bad for fans, bad for everyone.
I guess it also depends on what the topic is. If something big happened that the fans would benefit from hearing about, then it's worse. I'd rather they take some time to gather themselves and prepare for a press conference if they need to, rather than tank it or skip it.
mmmm8 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 2:35 pm
Yes, Djokovic was for sure using his platform. If some are right about his potential political ambitions, it was also a bit strategic.
I'd say the question to Seybouth Wild is warranted and in public interest (whether he is guilty or innocent) and although he didn't bring it up, the situation invites him as it concerns him directly.
I think nearly any question in the press room is warranted, beyond personally invasive questions and ones in clearly poor taste. Definitely questions about public accusations of this nature, absolutely. Wertheim disclosed that Wild's agent bullied the journalist afterward, trying to get a photo of his credential. Just awful.
In general, journalists should have a wide berth to pursue whatever stories they want. A player can always decline to answer. They have very little access to tennis players. They have to take advantage of the opportunity in press conferences.
The story was already broken in a reputable (to my knowledge) Brazilian newspaper. The influencer/ex girlfriend made the texts where he admitted being a descendant of a "boy from brazil" so what was his agent going to get from bullying a tennis journalist doing what a journalist should do? Does he think his client will avoid the questions about these things going forward? Maybe Mr. Wild should go back to the Challenger circuit because as like Sabalenka will find out you can't duck out on these things.
The agent accomplished nothing except maybe showing his client he has his back (or will take orders). But he would have served his client better by helping him understand the role of the media and that the journalist's question was totally fair.
by meganfernandez
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 11:11 pm
All I see is: a sport that was damn successful at reaching global audiences.
If we had not wanted that years ago, not tournaments outside the USA/GB/FR/AUS would have ever been started.
Look at is positively, and it is a raging success.
Right. Love the widespread representation.
by mick1303 I find the coincidence quite odd: Halep goes public with frustration that her doping case is stalled and she is not getting any answers. And then right after this the 2nd doping allegation appears. Are these doping people accountable in any way? Is there any authority which oversees them, other than them themselves?
by skatingfan
mick1303 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:58 pm
I find the coincidence quite odd: Halep goes public with frustration that her doping case is stalled and she is not getting any answers. And then right after this the 2nd doping allegation appears. Are these doping people accountable in any way? Is there any authority which oversees them, other than them themselves?
Court for Arbitration for Sport.
Halep's public statements, after months of silence, followed by a set of new allegations make it seem likely that she knew what was coming, and made the statements to sway opinions in her favour. This is good public relations messaging, but doesn't change the facts of the doping allegation.
by Fastbackss Lucas Pouille, the Frenchman who had a feel-good stretch up to and through beginning of French Open, returned home to find it had been robbed to tune of over 600K euro
by meganfernandez
Fastbackss wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:44 am
Lucas Pouille, the Frenchman who had a feel-good stretch up to and through beginning of French Open, returned home to find it had been robbed to tune of over 600K euro
That is awful. Does SST have an alibi? Too soon?
by ponchi101 And Pouille's story, as of late, has been rather dramatic. Bouts with depression and alcoholism, a very dark stretch of his life.
Feel sorry for the guy.
@Megan. Nah. Not too soon. Actually,
Fastbackss wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:44 am
Lucas Pouille, the Frenchman who had a feel-good stretch up to and through beginning of French Open, returned home to find it had been robbed to tune of over 600K euro
That is awful. Does SST have an alibi? Too soon?
Bouzkova swears she wasn't there but that she definitely saw someone pull a u-haul up to the house...
by ponchi101
by Fastbackss There's a veiled joke here that is totally over my head
Fastbackss wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:44 am
Lucas Pouille, the Frenchman who had a feel-good stretch up to and through beginning of French Open, returned home to find it had been robbed to tune of over 600K euro
That is awful. Does SST have an alibi? Too soon?
Bouzkova swears she wasn't there but that she definitely saw someone pull a u-haul up to the house...
She didn't have any agenda when she told the police.
by meganfernandez
Fastbackss wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 11:10 am
There's a veiled joke here that is totally over my head
STT and Bouzkova robbed Kato of her prize money and points in the infamous defaulted doubles match this week.
His arm was covered in scars, so he was shooting heroin? Yeesh. It was always obvious that he struggled with something serious. I'm not sure he's completely recovered - his behavior last year on court was also atrocious. But I hope the best for him. I've always thought he was poised for an Agassi-like second chapter - beats his demons, emerges as a kind, wise, beloved elder, and lets his talent fly.
I would be surprised if he is ready to make a run at Wimbledon this year. He just lost to Yibing Wu in straights and I think Djokovic is laser-focused on the Grand Slam. But Kyrgios could have won the final last year if he hadn't imploded. We'll see.
by ponchi101 Serious question for the ATP/WADA group. If he was doing drugs, how was this not detected by any of the testing? Gasquet was caught for cocaine; how were Kyrgios' problems not noticed?
by skatingfan
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 3:32 pm
Serious question for the ATP/WADA group. If he was doing drugs, how was this not detected by any of the testing? Gasquet was caught for cocaine; how were Kyrgios' problems not noticed?
Speaking hypothetically it would depend on when he did drugs, and how often he was tested out of competition. He has often taken breaks from the tour, and if he wasn't in Australia he would be unlikely to be tested out of competition.
by ponchi101 Ok. I thought that even if you were on breaks, the WADA regulations were still in place.
His arm was covered in scars, so he was shooting heroin? Yeesh. It was always obvious that he struggled with something serious. I'm not sure he's completely recovered - his behavior last year on court was also atrocious. But I hope the best for him. I've always thought he was poised for an Agassi-like second chapter - beats his demons, emerges as a kind, wise, beloved elder, and lets his talent fly.
I would be surprised if he is ready to make a run at Wimbledon this year. He just lost to Yibing Wu in straights and I think Djokovic is laser-focused on the Grand Slam. But Kyrgios could have won the final last year if he hadn't imploded. We'll see.
His arm was covered in scars, so he was shooting heroin? Yeesh. It was always obvious that he struggled with something serious. I'm not sure he's completely recovered - his behavior last year on court was also atrocious. But I hope the best for him. I've always thought he was poised for an Agassi-like second chapter - beats his demons, emerges as a kind, wise, beloved elder, and lets his talent fly.
I would be surprised if he is ready to make a run at Wimbledon this year. He just lost to Yibing Wu in straights and I think Djokovic is laser-focused on the Grand Slam. But Kyrgios could have won the final last year if he hadn't imploded. We'll see.
I read that as he was self-harming (cutting).
Okay... the drug usage context made me think heroin.
by skatingfan
mmmm8 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 4:52 pm
I read that as he was self-harming (cutting).
This makes more sense than intravenous drug use.
by skatingfan
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 4:33 pm
Ok. I thought that even if you were on breaks, the WADA regulations were still in place.
The regulations are, but you have to get caught. Out of competition tests are performed by the national anti-doping agency in which the athlete trains, and they tend to focus more on their own athletes than foreign athletes.
by texasniteowl
mmmm8 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 4:52 pm
I read that as he was self-harming (cutting).
That was how I read it too.
by ti-amie I read it as self harm as well. IV drug use would render him totally useless on a tennis court. My guess is he's on some powerful antipsychotic meds right now and I wonder how well he'll be able to play while using them.
mmmm8 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 4:52 pm
I read that as he was self-harming (cutting).
That was how I read it too.
Co-sign - cutting was my first thought when I read it.
by ashkor87 Not sure this firs here but..
apropos no russian players at Queens - I remember players like Nadal never played Queens either but for a tax reason - apparently, UK taxes them on their worldwide earnings, applying a percentage based on how many weeks they spent in the UK...
by ponchi101
ashkor87 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 18, 2023 4:24 am
Not sure this firs here but..
apropos no russian players at Queens - I remember players like Nadal never played Queens either but for a tax reason - apparently, UK taxes them on their worldwide earnings, applying a percentage based on how many weeks they spent in the UK...
No. That was a plan by the British Government and it was scrapped before being implemented because almost all sports would suffer from no-shows due to the tax issue. The F1 GP, several track meets, lots of cricket events, and the entire UK tennis and golf tournaments circuit was going to be avoided by foreign athletes.
And about Nadal and Queens: remember that Queens moved its dates by one week, and before that, Rafa was usually busy on the Sunday before the start of the tournament
by ashkor87 still no word on Russian and Belarusians being given visas ot not.. I would not put it past the tournament officials to have told the government not to give them visas, they dont want their precious princess to be handing out a trophy to one of 'them'. but still hide behind the fig leaf of a government decision.. let us see what happens.
by ponchi101 But, where are you reading that the UK government will withhold visas to Russians or Belarusians? Is there any news about that?
BTW, I once tried to apply for a UK visa (since Venezuela has become a nation of migrants, we are required such). It takes, for regular people like me, about a full month to get a visa because you have to hand over the passport and it has to be sent PHYSICALLY to the UK for the visa to be stamped. And, the application form is something straight out of BRAZIL (THE MOVIE). For example: they ask you to list ALL THE COUNTRIES, with the dates, that you have visited IN YOUR LIFE. Imagine that for a player like Medvedev or Sabalenka. How do you even start?
by ti-amie
ashkor87 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 19, 2023 3:00 pm
still no word on Russian and Belarusians being given visas ot not.. I would not put it past the tournament officials to have told the government not to give them visas, they dont want their precious princess to be handing out a trophy to one of 'them'. but still hide behind the fig leaf of a government decision.. let us see what happens.
I find the Brits being selective regarding Russian nationals a bit "ironic" when Russian nationals own sizable chunks of very expensive London real estate and Boris made the son of an oligarch a peer.
As you say we'll see.
by ti-amie
Here's the blacked out statement.
Anyone know what Gasanova said?
by ponchi101 That is very petty, from Simon.
I just don't like the guy.
by ti-amie
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 21, 2023 11:54 pm
That is very petty, from Simon.
I just don't like the guy.
Get in line bub. He's just about disappeared the WTA and that is so not cool.
ashkor87 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 19, 2023 3:00 pm
still no word on Russian and Belarusians being given visas ot not.. I would not put it past the tournament officials to have told the government not to give them visas, they dont want their precious princess to be handing out a trophy to one of 'them'. but still hide behind the fig leaf of a government decision.. let us see what happens.
I find the Brits being selective regarding Russian nationals a bit "ironic" when Russian nationals own sizable chunks of very expensive London real estate and Boris made the son of an oligarch a peer.
As you say we'll see.
British governments have always cared a lot about being 'seemly'... how things look.
by patrick Simon was missing as usual when the WTA doubles had incidents from Madrid (Speechgate) and Roland Garros (Bloodgate)
by mmmm8
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 21, 2023 11:54 pm
That is very petty, from Simon.
I just don't like the guy.
I just don't understand what is gained, besides bad PR.
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 21, 2023 11:54 pm
That is very petty, from Simon.
I just don't like the guy.
I just don't understand what is gained, besides bad PR.
good point
by JTContinental A delusional Simona Halep has been spotted training on hardcourts with Marta Kostyuk
by ti-amie
JTContinental wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:20 pm
A delusional Simona Halep has been spotted training on hardcourts with Marta Kostyuk
by tenniswizard Just moved ahead with a great article on mental issues handled by tennis pros as well as junior players: https://shorturl.at/dorD3
by ti-amieVarvara Gracheva: Russian-born tennis player wins first match as French citizen
Last updated on 26 June 2023
From the section Tennis
Russian-born Varvara Gracheva has won the first match she played since becoming a French citizen.
Gracheva, 22, was born in Moscow but has lived and trained in France for six years.
She beat Romanian Jacqueline Cristian 6-2 6-2 at the Bad Homburg Open in Germany on Monday.
World number 43 Gracheva becomes the French women's number two and will represent her new country when Wimbledon starts on 3 July.
She played at the French Open in May but was not listed as French as she had not yet received her French passport.
Russian and Belarusian players will be allowed to compete at this year's Wimbledon, but players must abide by strict rules set out by the All England Club.
In 2022, Russian doubles player Natela Dzalamidze competed at Wimbledon after changing her nationality to represent Georgia.
Gracheva told the Daily Mail in March that her application to switch nationalities was made before Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
In the same month, Gracheva was beaten in the final of the ATX Open by Ukrainian Marta Kostyuk, who refused to shake her hand.
by skatingfan WTA reveals ‘pathway to equal prize money’ with ATP for top-tier events
Women’s tour wants full parity with men’s ATP by 2033
Katie Boulter and Heather Watson out of Eastbourne
The Women’s Tennis Association has revealed plans to restructure its professional tour in order to introduce equal prize money at its top-tier events.
On Tuesday, the WTA announced that it will be revising its calendar, with WTA 1000 events set on a “pathway to equal prize money” as it gradually increases before becoming equal with the ATP’s prize money. Combined WTA events are set to offer equal prize money in 2027 while separate WTA 1000 and 500 events will offer the same money as their equivalent ATP events in 2033.
While the four grand slam tournaments have offered equal prize money at their events for years, starting with the US Open in 1973, most of the top level ATP and WTA joint events have had significant prize money gaps.
Over the past few years, particularly since the pandemic, the pay gap between the two tours has actually widened significantly. At the recent Italian Open, a joint event, the men’s event boasted a total purse of $8,637,966 (roughly £6.75m) while the women’s event was $3,572,618 (roughly £2.75m).
The restructuring of the WTA tour is a result of significant changes at the organisation, with it forming a new partnership with CVC Capital Partners, a private equity firm that bought a 20% stake in the WTA for $150m (£125m).
The new revised WTA calendar will also see the number of WTA 1000 events increased by one to 10 events, and the majority of those events will expand to two-week tournaments in line with the ATP. Four new WTA 500 events will also be added to the calendar, with tournaments in Monterrey, Seoul and Strasbourg being expanded.
Along with the restructuring of the tournaments, the WTA will initiate new scheduling rules for the top players in order to increase the chances of top players facing each other regularly. Changes to the WTA’s scheduling mandates will likely attract criticism from some top players who would rather have greater freedom to compete in lower-level events.
Meanwhile, Ons Jabeur picked up her first win of the grass-court season at the Eastbourne International, overcoming tough windy conditions to defeat Italy’s Jasmine Paolini 6-3, 6-2. She was followed later by Coco Gauff, who eased past Bernarda Pera 6-3, 6-2 to set up a second-round clash with Britain’s Jodie Burrage.
The second day of action in Eastbourne proved a difficult day for British players as Katie Boulter and Heather Watson lost in straight sets. Boulter, the new British No 1, was ousted by world No 30 Petra Martic, a lucky loser, 6-4 7-5. Watson, herself a lucky loser, fell 6-3, 6-4 to Camila Giorgi.
“I’m going to work hard these next few days, and I don’t think I have lost any confidence these past couple of weeks just because I lost to higher-ranked players. I really don’t feel that at all,” said Boulter, who lost in the first round of Birmingham and Eastbourne to top-50 opponents after winning her first WTA title in Nottingham.
On Tuesday morning, defending champion Petra Kvitova withdrew from the tournament before her first-round match against Jelena Ostapenko. After returning to the top 10 earlier this year by winning the Miami Open and then winning in Berlin on Sunday on grass, the two-time Wimbledon champion is one of the tournament favourites next week. At 33, opting to manage her body by not competing in Eastbourne was a smart decision.
In the men’s draw, Liam Broady moved into the second round with a solid 6-3, 6-4 over fellow Briton, Jan Choinski.
by JTContinental Marion Bartoli detailing her battle with anorexia, including Wimbledon telling her they wouldn't let her play because they were worried for her health (did we know this already and I just don't remember?) and spending 6 months in the hospital on a feeding tube.
by ponchi101 I remember the photos of her in the hospital, and I remember shots of her in which she looked completely emaciated. Dark days for that woman.
by meganfernandez
JTContinental wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 7:50 am
Marion Bartoli detailing her battle with anorexia, including Wimbledon telling her they wouldn't let her play because they were worried for her health (did we know this already and I just don't remember?) and spending 6 months in the hospital on a feeding tube.
Bitter rivals. Beloved friends. Survivors.
After 50 years, Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova understand each other like no one else can. When cancer came, they knew where to turn.
By Sally Jenkins
July 2 at 6:00 a.m.
There is an audible rhythm to a Grand Slam tennis tournament, a thwock-tock, tock-thwock of strokes, like beats per minute, that steadily grows fainter as the field diminishes. At first the locker room is a hive of 128 competitors, milling and chattering, but each day their numbers ebb, until just two people are left in that confrontational hush known as the final. For so many years, Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova were almost invariably the last two, left alone in a room so empty yet intimate that they could practically hear what was inside the other’s chest. Thwock-tock.
They dressed side by side. They waited together, sometimes ate together and entered the arena together. Then they would play a match that seemed like a personal cross-examination, running each other headlong into emotional confessions, concessions. And afterward they would return to that small room of two, where they showered and changed, observing with sidelong glances the other’s triumphalism or tears, states beyond mere bare skin. No one else could possibly understand it.
Except for the other.
“She knew me better than I knew me,” Navratilova says.
They have known each other for 50 years now, outlasting most marriages. Aside from blood kin, Navratilova points out, “I’ve known Chris longer than anybody else in my life, and so it is for her.” Lately, they have never been closer — a fact they refuse to cheapen with sentimentality. “It’s been up and down, the friendship,” Evert says. At the ages of 68 and 66, respectively, Evert and Navratilova have found themselves more intertwined than ever, by an unwelcome factor. You want to meet an opponent who draws you nearer in mutual understanding? Try having cancer at the same time.
“It was like, are you kidding me?” Evert says.
The shape of the relationship is an hourglass. They first met as teenagers in 1973, became friends and then split apart as each rose to No. 1 in the world at the direct expense of the other. They contested 80 matches — 60 of them finals — riveting for their contrasts in tactics and temperament. After a 15-year rivalry, they somehow reached a perfect equipoise of 18 Grand Slam victories each.
On some slow or rainy day, when the tennis at Wimbledon is banging and artless as a metronome or suspended by weather, do yourself a favor. Call up highlights of Evert and Navratilova’s match at the 1981 U.S. Open. They are 26 and 24 years old, respectively, honed to fine edges. It’s as if they were purposely constructed to test each other — and to whip up intense reactions from their audiences, the adorable blond American middle-class heroine with the frictionless grace against the flurrying Eastern European with sculpted muscles who played like a sword fighter.
Evert played from a restrained conventional demeanor, with ribbons in her hair, earrings in her ears. Yet she was utterly new. Audiences had never seen anything quite like the compressed lethality of this two-fisted young woman, who knocked off the legendary Margaret Court at the age of just 15 in 1970. She was a squinteyed, firm-chinned executioner who delivered strokes like milled steel.
She had mystique. And she refused to be hemmed in. As she held the No. 1 ranking for five straight years, she reserved the right to court romantic danger with a bewildering array of famous men, not all of them suitable for a nice Catholic girl, from the surly Jimmy Connors to superstar actor Burt Reynolds — and to put them second to her career. Her composure cloaked one of the toughest minds in the annals of sport, and her .900 winning percentage remains virtually unrivaled in tennis history.
Navratilova was her inverse, a gustily emotional left-handed serve-and-volleyer who challenged every traditional definition of heroine with an edgy militancy. Her game had an acrobatic suppleness that was also entirely novel — never had a female athlete moved with such airborne ease. Or acted so honestly. Navratilova was as overtly political as Evert was popular. Her defection from communist Czechoslovakia in 1975 was an act of unimaginable bravery, and her struggle to win acceptance from Western crowds was compounded by her defiant inability to censor herself or mask her homosexuality. Advised to put a man in her box at Wimbledon, she refused. Once, when asked whether she was “openly” gay, she shot back, “As opposed to closedly?”
More prideful generations can’t comprehend how in the vanguard Navratilova was when she came out in 1981 or the price she paid in lost endorsements. The New York Times that year announced that homosexuality was “the most sensitive issue in the sports marketplace, more delicate than drugs, more controversial than violence.” Male sportswriters fixated on the veins in her arms. Newsweek veered out of its way to accuse her of “accentuating some lifestyle manifesto.” She repaid them all by becoming the first female athlete to win a million dollars in prize money in a single year.
Small wonder Evert and Navratilova’s matches seemed like such colossal encounters. As they competed, the TV cameras zeroed in on their faces and found mother-of-dragons expressions, a willingness to play to ashes. That too was new.
It once had been considered “unnatural” for a woman to contend with such unembarrassed intensity. As Evert’s own agent said in 1981, female sports stars were expected to be “ladylike” and not too “greedy” in their negotiations, while their male counterparts could win “every nickel and feel quite comfortable about it.” Not anymore. Evert and Navratilova had established their common right “to go to the ends of the earth, the absolute ends of the earth, to achieve something,” Evert says.
By the time Evert and Navratilova retired from singles play, in 1989 and 1994, respectively, they had reached a mutual understanding. Not only were they level with an equal number of major titles, but the rivalry was so transcendent, it had become a kind of joint accomplishment.
After their retirements, they followed strangely similar courses. They were neighbors in Aspen, Colo., and Florida, at times living just minutes from each other. Evert’s longtime base is Boca Raton, while Navratilova has a home in Miami Beach as well as a small farm just up the road in Evert’s birthplace of Fort Lauderdale, where she keeps a multitude of chickens. “She brings me eggs,” Evert says. Each eventually went into tennis broadcasting, which meant they continued to meet at Grand Slam fortnights. “Our lives are so parallel, it’s eerie when you think about it,” Navratilova says.
They became the kind of friends who talked and texted weekly, sometimes exchanging black-box confidences deep in the night. And who could tease each other with a mischief they wouldn’t tolerate from anyone else. On Navratilova’s 60th birthday, she received a Cartier box from Evert. Inside was a necklace with three rings of white gold, signifying the two and their long friendship. “I guess I’m kind of the guy in our relationship, giving her jewelry,” Evert cracks.
The parallels were funny, until they weren’t.
In January 2022, Evert learned that she had Stage 1C ovarian cancer. As Evert embarked on a grueling six cycles of chemotherapy, Navratilova pulled the Cartier necklace from her jewelry box and put it on, a talisman. “I wore it all the time when I wanted her to get well,” Navratilova says. For months, she never took it off.
Only one thing made her remove it: radiation. In December 2022, Navratilova received her own diagnosis: She had not one but two early-stage cancers, in her throat and breast.
“I finally had to take it off when I got zapped,” Navratilova says.
On a late spring day, Evert and Navratilova sat together in an elegant Miami hotel, both finally cancer-free at the end of long dual sieges. Evert was just a few weeks removed from her fourth surgery in 16 months, a reconstruction following a mastectomy she underwent in late January. Navratilova had just finished the last session of a scorching protocol of radiation and chemo, during which she lost 29 pounds. She toyed with a plate of gluten-free pasta, happy to be able to swallow without pain.
They were finally ready to look over their shoulders and tell some stories. New stories but also some old ones that felt fresh again or came with a new frankness.
Evert recalled the day she phoned Navratilova to tell her she had cancer.
“She was one of the very first people I told,” she says.
Wait a second.
Is Evert saying that the rival who dealt her the deepest professional cuts of her life, whose mere body language on the court once made her seethe, was among the very first people she wanted to talk to when she got cancer? It’s one thing to share a rich history and be neighbors and swap gifts and teasing, but they are those kinds of confidantes?
And is the same true for Navratilova, that Evert — whose mere existence meant that no matter how much she won, she could never really win, who at one point dominated her with an infuriating superciliousness — was among the first people she called when she got cancer? Is that what they are saying?
Indeed, it is.
“When I called her, it was a feeling of, like, coming home,” Evert says.
Hang on, you say.
Go back.
Guts and glory, together and apart
They met Feb. 25, 1973, in the player lounge of a Florida tour stop. Evert, 18, was playing backgammon with a tournament official at a table by a wall. Though she had been a top player for two years by then, she was by nature shy and felt isolated by her fame and the circumscribing stereotype that came with it. Sports Illustrated would paint her as a “composite of Sandra Dee, the Carpenters, and yes, apple pie,” which she dealt with by cultivating a clamped, sardonic purse of the mouth.
Evert glanced up and saw a new girl approaching, pale and plump as a dumpling, with a guileless face beneath a mop of hair. “Hi, Chris!” she recalls Navratilova blurting.
From the 16-year-old Navratilova’s point of view, it was Evert who spoke first, giving her a sweet murmured “Hi” and a small wave. Oh, my God, Chris Evert said hello to me, Navratilova thought. Navratilova recognized Evert from the pictures she pored over in World Tennis magazine, one of the few subscriptions she could get in her home village of Revnice, outside of Prague.
Let’s stipulate that the greetings were simultaneous, the reflexive reactions of two girls who were the antithetical of mean, more sensitive than their other competitors ever realized, “both always underestimated in our empathy,” as Navratilova says. And who had the mutual desire to break the “taboo” of competition, as Evert once called it, that inhibited so many girls.
Later in the tournament, Evert spotted Navratilova again. “Picture this,” Evert says. Navratilova was walking straight through the grounds in a one-piece bathing suit and flip flops, oblivious to stares at her crisscrossing tan lines. It was Navratilova’s first trip to the United States; she was granted an eight-week leave by the communist Czechoslovakian government to try her game against the Western elites’, and she was determined to luxuriate in it. She’s got guts, Evert thought.
Their first match a month later, in Akron, Ohio, on March 22, 1973, is crystal to them both a half-century later. Though Evert won in straight sets, Navratilova pushed her to 7-6 in the first. “Five-four in the tiebreaker,” Navratilova says instantly, as soon as it’s mentioned, bristling, “And I actually had a set point.”
Evert had never faced anything like it. The curving lefty serve caromed away from her, and so did the charging volleys. “She had weapons that I hadn’t seen in a young player — ever,” Evert says. Two things gave Evert relief: Navratilova’s lack of fitness — she had put on 20 pounds in four weeks on American pancakes — and her emotionalism. “She was almost crying on the court in the match, you know, just moaning,” Evert says. Nevertheless, Evert had never felt such a formidableness from a new opponent and never would again. “Overwhelming” is the word Evert searches for — and finds. “More than any player coming up in the last 40 years.”
To Navratilova, it was equally memorable, for the simple reason that she had nearly taken a set off Evert. “For me, that was unforgettable. But, yeah, I made an impression. … I was pretty confident that I would beat her one day. I just didn’t know how long it would take.”
Friendship was easy enough at first — so long as Evert was winning. She won 16 of their first 20 matches. In their first Grand Slam final, at the 1975 French Open, she smoked Navratilova 6-2, 6-1 in the second and third sets after casually sharing a lunch of roasted chicken with her.
Evert was so utterly regnant and aloof in those days she seemed to Navratilova like a castle with a moat. She had a forbidding self-containment, a stony demeanor that one competitor from the 1970s, Lesley Hunt, likened in Sports Illustrated to “playing a blank wall.”
Navratilova could not fathom how Evert cast such a huge projection with such an unprepossessing figure. “I was like, ‘Holy s---, how does she do it?’ ” Navratilova remembers. Evert stood just 5-foot-6 and weighed a slim-shouldered 125 pounds. But she had a superb economy of motion — and something else. One day Navratilova watched fascinated as Evert practiced against her younger sister Jeanne Evert, who also played on the tour. Both Everts had two-handed backhands, and they wore skirts with no pockets. Which meant that to hit a backhand, someone had to drop the ball she carried in her left hand and it would bounce distractingly around her feet. As Navratilova watched, she realized with growing amusement that Chris was engaged in a subtle contest of will.
“It was kind of a mental fight,” Navratilova recalls. “Who was going to hit the first ball? Because whoever didn’t hit first would have to drop their ball.” Chris never missed the chance to hit first. “It was a small thing, but it took a steely determination,” Navratilova says. “And she never missed.” It registered. By the end of the session Navratilova understood that Evert’s greatest weapon was “her brain.”
Navratilova herself was so mentally distractible that she would follow the flight of a bird across the stadium sky. Her thoughts and feelings seemed to blow straight through her, unfiltered. Evert could not help but be disarmed by this openhearted, unconstrained young woman who seemed hungry to experience … everything. Pancakes. Pool time. Freedom. Friendship. Fast cars.
Evert’s urge to befriend Navratilova won out over her reserve. Evert invited her to be her doubles partner and even took her on a double date, with Dean Martin Jr., son of the entertainer, and Desi Arnaz Jr., Martin’s actor friend and pop-band collaborator. The teen idols squired Evert and Navratilova to a drive-in movie.
Evert and Navratilova traveled together, practiced together, even brunched before they met in finals. “I was a tough nut to crack,” Evert observes. “But she was so innocent and almost vulnerable when she was young, I trusted being safe with her.”
Over dinners and glasses of wine, Navratilova discovered the mutinous side of Evert, which expressed itself with an unsuspected saltiness. Evert delighted in telling Navratilova scandalously dirty jokes. The outward banality of the girl hurling herself off the pedestal compounded Navratilova’s outbursts of laughter. “The curtain would fall,” Navratilova says, “and the funny Chris came out. The filter was gone. The walls were gone. And that’s when I realized she just kept the cards close to her chest. But she was soooo mischievous underneath it all.”
By 1976, however, Navratilova began to score more victories over Evert. In that year’s Wimbledon semifinals, it was all Evert could do to hold her off, 6-3, 4-6, 6-4. “I was nipping at her heels,” Navratilova says. “I was becoming a threat.”
Which is when all the trouble started and they entered the narrowest part of the hourglass. Evert believed she had gotten too close to Navratilova. She broke up their doubles partnership. “She ditched me,” Navratilova says.
Evert did it politely, telling Navratilova she would have to find another partner because she wanted to focus on her singles. But it stung. And Navratilova knew the real reason. “Chris, by her own admission, could only be close friends with people who never had a chance of beating her,” Navratilova says.
Evert hated to play someone she cared about — hated it. “I thought, ‘God, I can’t be emotional towards these people,’ ” Evert says now. “… It was easier not to even know them.”
Evert’s on-court demeanor was a facade, developed to please her father and coach, Jimmy Evert, a renowned teaching pro at the public Holiday Park in Fort Lauderdale. Jimmy was a man of such rigor and unbending rectitude that he refused to raise his $6 hourly fee for lessons because of his daughter’s success. But he was not right about everything. He demanded that Chris commit to tennis to the exclusion of all else — friends were incompatible with rivals, he told her. “I was raised in a house that did not encourage relationships,” she says. And he brooked no dissent. “It was a fearful sort of upbringing,” she adds. The result was a young woman who beneath her stoicism roiled with insecurity and anxiety.
Navratilova observes that, in its way, Evert’s childhood was as stifling as her own had been in Czechoslovakia. “We are much more the same than different, really,” she says. “So much of it was imposed on both of us, one way or the other, with her Catholic, proper girl upbringing and me being suppressed by communism.”
Evert convinced herself that she and Navratilova had become too familiar with each other and that it cost her an edge.
So “I separated myself from her,” Evert says.
It was bad timing for Navratilova, who was feeling doubly cut off. A year earlier, she had defected. Czech authorities had increasingly expressed the ominous sentiment that Navratilova was getting too Americanized — partly thanks to her budding friendship with Evert — and she feared they were about to choke off her career.
Navratilova struggled with homesickness; concern for her family, whom she would not see for almost five years; mastering a new language (she studied English by watching “I Love Lucy” reruns); and the stresses of hiding her homosexuality. As she related in her autobiography, by the time Evert ditched her at the U.S. Open, “I was a walking candidate for a nervous breakdown.” She lost in the opening round to a grossly inferior player, Janet Newberry, and dissolved into sobs on national television.
But Navratilova emerged from the catharsis a firmer character. She watched with a mounting, gnawing dissatisfaction as Evert dominated the Grand Slams, challenged only by Evonne Goolagong. At one point, Navratilova heard Evert talk in an interview about how her rivalry with Goolagong was “defining” her.
Navratilova bridled at the statement. “I remember thinking, what about me?” Navratilova recalls.
When it finally came, Navratilova’s breakthrough — and the role reversal — was breath-snatching. By 1981 she had developed some armor. Training with Nancy Lieberman, the former basketball great, she dropped her body fat to 8 percent. Lieberman told her she had to get “mean” about Evert and showed what she meant by being intentionally rude to Evert in player lounges. Evert would start to greet them, and Lieberman would turn her back or say frostily, “Are you talking to me?” It quietly infuriated Evert. “They weren’t very nice to me,” Evert says. “I mean, Nancy taught her to hate me.”
From 1982 to 1984, it was Navratilova’s turn to be cold. She reached 10 Grand Slam finals — and won eight of them. In that stretch, she beat Evert 14 straight times, with an abbreviating serve-and-volley power that seemed almost dismissive. “She was in the way of me getting to No. 1,” Navratilova says. “So I kind of created that distance. She was my carrot when I was training. You know, I would imagine beating Chris. She became the villain, even though she really wasn’t.”
Evert struggled not to lose heart, especially when Navratilova beat her by 6-1, 6-3 in the 1983 U.S. Open. “It was not a good feeling to know that I wasn’t even in the game,” Evert says. About to turn 30, she had fallen behind in a variety of ways, from her fitness to the fact that Navratilova was using a graphite racket while she still used wood. She was also trying to sort her personal life and separated from her husband of five years, British player John Lloyd.
Navratilova paraded her triumph by whipping around in a white Rolls-Royce convertible, one of six cars in her garage. She won so much that by 1984 it made her generous again. She now trained with a more amiable tennis tactician named Mike Estep, and her partner, Judy Nelson, a former Texas beauty contestant, liked Evert and worked to repair the relationship. At Wimbledon that July, after beating Evert, 7-6 (7-5), 6-2, to even their all-time match record at 30-30, Navratilova was sensitive to Evert’s quiet devastation. Navratilova said sweetly into the victor’s microphone, “I wish we could just quit right now and never play each other again because it’s not right for one of us to say we’re better.”
“So does that mean she’s retiring now?” Evert said in a news conference afterward, wisecrackery intact.
Navratilova’s dominance of Evert that summer made her more of an antiheroine than she had ever been — and resulted in one of the most wounding days of her career. On the afternoon of the 1984 U.S. Open final, they had an interminably tense wait as Pat Cash and Ivan Lendl engaged in a five-set men’s semifinal that went to two tiebreakers and lasted nearly four hours. There was nothing to do but stare into space or chat. Evert became starving. Navratilova, who had a bagel, split it and handed her half.
When they finally took the court, they needed a while to find their form — and then they suddenly went into full classic mode. When Evert began to lace the court with passing shots as if she was running out clotheslines, taking the opening set 6-4, the crowd leaped to its feet and roared like jet engines.
But when Navratilova took the second set 6-4, there came a smattering of boos. As Navratilova turned the match in her favor, some grew surly. They began to applaud her errors and cheered when she double-faulted. When she won it with a knifing volley, 4-6, 6-4, 6-4, there was a barely polite ovation.
Navratilova was unstrung by the rejection. As Estep gave her a congratulatory hug, she burst into tears in his arms. “Why were they so against me?” she asked Estep. The answer: Because she had won too much against Evert. It was Navratilova’s sixth straight Grand Slam victory — and the most ambivalent feeling she ever had. She buried her head in a towel, shoulders quivering.
One person knew how Navratilova felt that day: Evert. For years she had lived with the “ice maiden” label and frigidness from crowds that considered her too impassive. Goolagong, the wispy, ethereal Australian, had always been more favored by fans, to the point that on one occasion Evert came back into the locker room after a loss and flung her rackets to the floor and spat bitterly, “Now I hope they’re happy.”
Evert and Navratilova wanted to be appreciated for who they were. But it felt impossible with all the media caricatures of them as princesses, robots, “Chris America” vs. the foreigner, the delicate sweetheart vs. the bulging lesbian. “All that stuff hurt,” Navratilova says.
Evert refused to play into any of the tropes that day — or any other day. For which Navratilova felt deeply grateful. “Chris never did anything to make it worse, you know?” Navratilova says.
At some point in the wake of that difficult year, they struck a private agreement: They would not respond to the stereotypes or any egging on from the media or their own audiences. If either had a question about something, she would speak directly to the other, “so that we knew where we stand,” Navratilova says.
Early in 1985, Evert beat Navratilova for the first time in over two years, at the Virginia Slims of Florida. “Nobody beats Chris Evert 15 times in a row,” she deadpanned.
The renewal set up another masterpiece, the 1985 French Open final. The match is a fascinating revisit — and reveal. After they took the court, what’s striking is how they had borrowed from each other, forced the other to adapt. It’s Navratilova who wins some of the longest baseline rallies and Evert who presses the net first on some points. Navratilova has fully appropriated imperiousness, blond and bejeweled, diamonds in her ears, gold bracelets and rings. Evert is the one who is stripped down — her hair is shorn short, and there is nothing on her wrist but a sweatband. It’s clear she had gone back to work, developed ropes of muscle in her arms and stealthily broadened her game over those two seasons of losses.
Right hand against left, they went at each other like flashing sabers.
As their rallies wore on, they played with apparent curiosity. “There had been so many matches. How do you surprise one another?” Navratilova says. “How do you find something new or different? When you know everything already?” Sometimes, as the ball flew, one of them would just nod before it landed and acknowledge that it was too good with a “Yep.”
Evert would never be better; she found ways to wrong-foot the charging, slashing Navratilova. She always had been irritated by the shoulder swagger Navratilova could show after a great point, but she was fully capable of her own show of supremacy, and she showed it here, with the head tossing of an empress and a mincy little walk that could only be called a sashay.
A point-blank volley exchange at the net, won by Evert, had broadcaster Bud Collins screaming: “OHHHHHH! Eyeball to eyeball!” On one exchange, the force of Evert’s shot knocked the racket from Navratilova’s hand and sent her sprawling to the red clay. On match point, she lured Navratilova to the net with a short forehand, then pivoted to deliver an unfurling backhand winner up the line past a diving Navratilova, through an opening as narrow as one of her old hair ribbons. And it was over. Evert had won, 6-3, 6-7 (7-4), 7-5.
The embrace at the net is one of their enduringly favorite pictures. They threw their arms over each other’s shoulders, mutually exhausted yet beaming over the quality of the tennis they had just played. “You can’t tell who won,” Navratilova says.
It seemed as if they no longer were playing against each other so much as with each other. And that’s how it stayed. From then on, their locker room atmosphere became more than just companionable. It was … consoling. Someone would win and someone would lose, and the loser would sit on a bench, head dangling, and the other, unable to look away, would drift over and sit down. Sometimes, hours afterward, one of them would open her tennis bag and find a sweet note in it.
“We were the last two left standing,” Evert says. “… I saw her at her highest and at her lowest. And I think because we saw each other that way, the vulnerable part, that’s another level of friendship.”
In 1986, Navratilova was scheduled to return to Czechoslovakia for the first time since her defection to play a match for the U.S. Federation Cup team. “Will you come?” she asked Evert. “I don’t know how they’ll treat me.” Evert was nursing a knee injury, but she went. Navratilova was overjoyed to be teammates for a change. “We could be happy at the same time for once,” she says. Evert was rewarded with an extraordinary experience: She watched her friend get a standing ovation from crowds standing three deep while Czech officials stared at their shoes.
At Evert’s final Wimbledon in 1989, one more remarkable scene played out between them. Evert by then was flagging, her intensity worn thin. In the quarterfinals she was in danger of an undignified loss to unseeded, 87th-ranked Laura Golarsa. She trailed 5-2 in the third set, just two points from defeat. This isn’t how I want to go out, she thought grimly. Navratilova, watching on TV in the player lounge, stood up and dashed out to courtside. She took a seat in the grandstand.
“Come on, Chrissie!” Navratilova’s voice rang out.
Evert had just a moment to feel moved. Touched. Just then Golarsa delivered a volley. On a dead run, Evert chased it. Stretched out, pulled nearly into the stands, her backhand fully extended, Evert drove a screaming pass down the alley that curled around the net post and checked the opposite corner, a clean winner. Navratilova shrieked with the thrill of it like a little girl. Evert swept the rest of the set and won it 7-5, arguably the most astonishing comeback of her life.
“She’s got my back,” Evert says now. “I’ve got hers.”
‘Cancer makes you feel alone’
Friendship is arguably the most wholly voluntary relationship. It reflects a mutual decision to keep pasting something back together, no matter how far it gets pulled apart, even when there is no obligatory reason, no justice-of-the-peace vow or chromosomal tie.
Evert and Navratilova just kept finding reasons to hang on to the relationship. To the point that they became hilariously entangled in each other’s personal affairs. It’s a fact that Navratilova set up Evert with the man who remains the most important one in her life, Andy Mill. Toward the close of Evert’s playing career, Navratilova knew Evert was lonely and depressed after her divorce from Lloyd, which caused Jimmy Evert to briefly stop speaking to his daughter. Navratilova invited Evert to spend Christmas with her in Aspen. She took her skiing and to a New Year’s party at the Hotel Jerome, where she knew there would be good-looking men in droves. That night Evert met the impossibly handsome Mill, who the next day gallantly coached Evert down a steep slope, skiing backward and holding her hands.
At the end of the week, as Navratilova packed to leave for the Australian Open, Evert appeared in her doorway. “Do you mind if I stay on for a few days?” Evert asked. Navratilova arched an eyebrow and smiled. “Sure.” With the house to herself, Evert had her first tryst with Mill, causing the gentleman to exclaim the next morning, “My God, I’m with Chris Evert in Martina Navratilova’s bed.” Evert’s 1988 wedding to Mill marked the rare occasion when Navratilova wore a skirt. Years later, Navratilova was still teasing Evert. “I should have put that bed on eBay.”
In 2014, when Navratilova wed longtime partner Julia Lemigova, she did not have to debate whom to choose as maid of honor. Evert was by her side. “But of course,” Navratilova says.
Navratilova had never properly told Evert how much her unwavering support against homophobia had meant. Especially in crucial moments such as 1990, when Australian champion Margaret Court called Navratilova a “bad role model” for being gay. “Martina is a role model to me,” Evert snapped back publicly. As Navratilova put it, Evert was “gay-friendly before it was okay to be.” It made Navratilova’s public life incalculably more bearable. “It was more than nice,” Navratilova says now of Evert’s stance. “It was huge.” On matters of character, Navratilova says, Evert “underrates herself.”
Here’s where they stood when the cancers came. Evert had just finished rearing three adored sons to adulthood and was resolutely single again, after a psychological reckoning. Her long emotional containment finally imploded in 2006: She left Mill for former pro golfer Greg Norman; a terrible mistake, the union lasted just 15 months. Determined to know herself better, she went into counseling “to figure out what makes me tick and how I’m wired, why I’m wired the way I am and why I have made mistakes the way I have” and emerged with a piercing self-honesty. She reestablished a closeness with Mill and reinvested herself in her second calling as a mentor to young prodigies at the developmental tennis camp she founded, the Evert Tennis Academy. At over 60, she could still go for two hours on a court with women a third her age.
Just down the freeway from her, Navratilova had found her “anchor” with Lemigova, with whom she step-mothered two daughters and cared for an assortment of animals: donkeys, goats, dogs and exotic birds, including a talkative parrot named Pushkin. One of the most broadly read great athletes who ever lived, she absorbed tomes such as Timothy Snyder’s account of encroaching fascism, “The Road to Unfreedom,” with a lightning intelligence that could light up a hillside.
In February 2020, a funeral notice appeared in the Fort Lauderdale papers: Mass for Jeanne Evert Dubin would be said at 10 a.m. at St. Anthony’s Church. Evert had watched with mounting grief as her precious younger sister fought ovarian cancer until her arms were bruised by needles and ports and she wasted to less than 80 pounds.
Sitting in a pew was Navratilova, who would spend the next 12 hours by Evert’s side. She attended the graveside services, then sat with Evert and her family at home until 10 that night.
Nearly two years after Jeanne’s death, in November 2021, Evert got a call out of the blue from the Cleveland Clinic. Genetic testing that Jeanne had undergone during her illness had been reappraised with new study, and she had a BRCA1 variant that was pathogenic. The doctor recommended that Evert get tested immediately. The very next day Evert got a test — and she, too, was positive for the BRCA1 mutation. Her doctor, Joe Cardenas, recommended an immediate hysterectomy.
Evert called Navratilova and told her about the test and that she was scheduled for surgery and further testing. “It’s preventive,” Evert told her reassuringly. On the other end of the phone, she heard Navratilova exhale, “Ohhhhhhhhh,” a long sigh of inarticulate dismay. In 2010, Navratilova had been diagnosed with a noninvasive breast cancer after making the mistake of going four years without a mammogram. Her cancer was contained — but still. Navratilova wouldn’t feel comfortable for Evert until all the tests had come back.
“The first thing, the very first thing I thought of was, if I’m going to go through these trenches with anybody, Martina would be the person I’d want to go through them with,” Evert says. “Because she’s … strong. She doesn’t take any nonsense from people. She just gets the job done. And I think that’s the mentality I had.”
When Evert’s pathology report came back after the surgery, however, she felt anything but strong: Surgery revealed high-grade malignancy in her fallopian tubes. Evert would have to undergo a second surgery, to harvest lymph nodes and test fluid in her stomach cavity, to determine what stage she was. Jeanne’s cancer had not been discovered until she was Stage 3; “I knew that anything Stage 3 or 4, you don’t have a good chance,” Evert says.
For three days, Evert waited for the results with the understanding that they were life-or-death. “Humble moment,” Evert says. “You know, just because I was No. 1 in the world, it doesn’t — I’m just like everyone else.”
Evert got unfathomably lucky. The cancer hadn’t progressed. Had she waited even three more months to be tested, it probably would have spread. As soon as she was able, Evert would go public with her diagnosis to encourage testing. An estimated 25 million people carry a BRCA mutation, and like her, 90 percent of them have no idea. “I had felt fine, I was working out, and I had cancer in my body,” she says.
Evert still had a hard road ahead, with six cycles of chemo, but her chances of recovery were 90 percent. Her eldest son, Alex, moved in to support her daily care and even designed a workout regimen so she could sweat out the poisons. Mill took her to every chemo treatment and held her hand. Her good friend Christiane Amanpour, also diagnosed with ovarian cancer, sent her healing ointments from Paris. Her youngest sister, Clare, flew in monthly to nurse her through the sickish aftereffects, even climbing into bed with her.
But nothing can really make cancer a collective experience; it’s an experiential impasse. Everyone responds differently to the treatment and the accompanying dread. Late at night, Evert would be sleepless from the queasiness and a strange sense of small electric shocks biting into her bones. She would have to slip out of bed and walk around the house, by herself with it. “Cancer makes you feel alone,” Evert says. “Because it’s like, nobody can take that pain from you.”
Compounding Evert’s sense of aloneness was the abruptness with which she had toppled from a sense of supreme athletic command to feebleness. There was one person who could understand that. “What can I do for you?” Navratilova asked. They were in a room of just two, all over again. “I can tell her my fears,” Evert says. “I can be 100 percent honest with her.”
Navratilova came by the house and called regularly, but she also knew how to “lay back.” Sometimes she would call and Evert would answer right away. And sometimes it would take three or four days before she answered. It felt, in a way, like the old locker room days when she knew Evert was laboring with a loss. “I think because we were there for each other before, we kind of knew what to do or what not to do, instinctively, even though this was a first,” Navratilova says.
In the middle of Evert’s treatments, a gift arrived from Navratilova. It was a large piece of art. The canvas was lacquered with Evert’s favorite playing surface, red clay, and painted with white tennis lines, on which a series of ball marks were embedded, including one that had ticked the white line. The piece was by Navratilova herself, who in retirement took up art. The canvas was really a portrait — of Evert, of the exquisite, measured precision of her game. A tribute. Evert immediately hung it in a primary place in her living room.
After every cycle of treatment, Evert would rebound with a tenacity that astounded Navratilova. She would plead with her doctors, “Can I get on a treadmill?” Just days removed from an IV, she would start power walking again or riding her beloved Peloton bike until she was slick with sweat. She even did light CrossFit workouts with weights. “She’s an animal,” Navratilova observes admiringly.
By the summer 2022, Evert was healthy enough to go back to work as a broadcaster (although with a wig), and in November she joined Navratilova in a public appearance at the season-ending WTA Finals in Fort Worth. The pair went shopping together for cowboy boots and hats, strolling through the Fort Worth Stockyards historic district. And that’s when Evert delivered a piece of news that undid Navratilova. “I’m having a double mastectomy,” Evert said. She explained that her BRCA mutation meant she was at high risk of developing breast cancer on top of the ovarian.
Navratilova was so affected, she burst into tears. “It was such a shock to me because I thought she was done,” she says, and as she retells the story, she weeps again. She had watched Evert go public with her diagnosis and slug her way through chemo, and she hoped she was past it. Now she would face more months of convalescence. “I knew what she was going through publicly and privately,” Navratilova says, “and it just knocked me on my ass.”
Navratilova was still grappling with Evert’s news when she was floored by her own cancer diagnosis. During the Fort Worth trip, Navratilova felt a sore lump in her neck. She wasn’t taking any chances and underwent a biopsy when she got home. Evert got a text from Navratilova. Can you call me as soon as possible? I need to talk to you. Evert checked her phone and saw that Navratilova had also tried to call her. Evert thought, Oh, s--t. That’s not good.
Navratilova’s sore lump proved to be a cancerous lymph node. Like Evert, she had to undergo multiple lumpectomies and further tests, with a frightening three days waiting for the results, worried that it had advanced into her organs. “I’m thinking, ‘I could be dead in a year,’ ” she says. She distracted herself by thinking about her favorite subject, beautiful cars, and browsing them online.
Which car am I going drive in the last year of my life, she asked herself. A Bentley? A Ferrari?
The verdict when the testing came back was a combination of relief and gut punch. The throat cancer was a highly curable Stage 1, but the follow-up screening also revealed she had an early-stage breast cancer, unrelated to her previous bout. She was so stunned she had a hard time even driving herself home. But by the time Evert reached her by phone, Navratilova was in an incredulous, fear-fueled rage. “I sensed that it really pissed her off more than anything,” Evert says. “She was mad about it.”
“Can you believe it!” Navratilova stormed. “It’s in my throat. And then they found something in my breast.”
For a minute, the two of them considered the bizarreness of both fighting cancer at the same time. Navratilova had always chased Evert, but she didn’t want to chase her in this pursuit. “Jesus. I guess we’re taking this to a whole new level,” Navratilova said.
And then they both started giggling.
“Because it was just so ironic,” Evert says.
But then Navratilova grew serious again. She admitted to Evert, “I’m scared.”
It was the same sudden whiff of mortality, the same you’re not so special after all jolt that Evert had gotten. “As a top-level athlete, you think you’re going to live to a hundred and that you can rehab it all,” Navratilova says. “And then you realize, ‘I can’t rehab this.’ So sharing that fear was easy — easier with her than anybody else.”
Navratilova’s cancer was not as dangerous as Evert’s, but it was more arduous. It required three cycles of chemo, 15 sessions of targeted proton therapy on her throat, 35 more proton treatments on the lymph nodes in her neck and five sessions of conventional radiation on her breast. Navratilova arranged to do it at Memorial Sloan Kettering hospital in New York, hunkering down at a friend’s vacant apartment.
Unbelievably, Navratilova chose to undergo most of it alone. She wanted to protect her family from worry over her. “You just keep it in because you don’t want to affect the people around you.” She also wanted to cultivate her former big-match mentality, to focus on the fight. “Even just answering the question when somebody says, ‘Can I get you anything?’ it takes energy,” Navratilova says now. “And it’s just easier to not have to think what you’re going to say or to deny help 10 times.”
The proton treatments were a series of slow singes. Her sense of taste turned to ashes, and swallowing felt like an acid rinse. As her weight plunged, she shivered on the cold medical tables, unable to get warm, to the point that she wore a ski vest to the hospital. She developed deep circles under her eyes from insomnia.
As the poisons mounted in her, it was as if she aged 50 years overnight. “Everything felt just wrong,” she says. This was a woman who had trekked up Mount Kilimanjaro at the age of 54, reaching 14,000 feet before she was felled with a case of pulmonary edema. At 65, she could still do 30 push-ups in a row. Now she needed two hands to drink a glass of water.
Evert had an almost intuitive sense of when to check up on Navratilova. Just when she would be near despair, not trusting herself to drink from a glass with one quivering hand, the phone would buzz, and it would be Evert. “What stands out is the timing,” Navratilova says. “It was always spot on. Like she knew I was at a low point. I don’t know how she knew, but she did. It was like some kind of cosmic connection. Because it was uncanny.”
Evert would be briskly sympathetic and to the point. “Don’t tough it out,” she would say, then just listen. There was no need for question or explanation. There was just understanding. “It was always there,” Navratilova says. “So we didn’t have to, like, try to find it.”
Sometimes the only sound on the line would be two people breathing, wordless with mutual comprehension.
Evert says, “With all the experiences we had, winning and losing and comforting each other, I think we ended up having more compassion for each other than anybody in the world could have.”
“I think we ended up having more compassion for each other than anybody in the world could have,” Evert said. (Marvin Joseph/The Washington Post)
Their finest rally
As Evert and Navratilova finish picking over lunch salads, their senses of renewal in the Miami sunshine make them seem almost radiant. Life feels clearer, “uncluttered,” Evert says. From a distance, they cut the figures of teenagers. Evert is as neatly trim as ever, an impression enhanced by her newly grown pixie-length platinum hair. Navratilova, too, is slender as a youth. Only up close do you see lingering creases of fatigue around their eyes and sense the scars beneath their clothes and the tentativeness of their confidence.
Evert admits she is “hesitant” to say her cancer is really gone. “It could come back. Look, it could come back. It’s cancer, right? It’s always peripheral.” Navratilova agrees. She compares it to waking up on the morning of an important match, a Wimbledon final, with the reverse of anticipation. For the first few seconds of semiconsciousness after opening her eyes she feels peace, and then the awareness of something important and pending seeps in. And then it hits her: cancer. “It’s always hovering,” Navratilova says. “You just put it out of sight. You go on with what you’re doing.”
The way they go on is as follows. They go public with their diagnoses and accounts of treatment because all those years that they were clashing over trophies, they also had a sense of a larger public responsibility, to “the game or women athletes or women,” as Navratilova says. A sense that it wasn’t enough just to be great; they also had to be good for something. “To help,” Evert says.
They work out as much as the doctors allow, maybe even a little more than they advise, at first provisionally and then with growing defiance, even though each of their bodies is “still fighting the crap that’s inside it,” as Navratilova says, in her case doing just two push-ups and going skiing before her radiation was done. (“Skiing! During radiation!” Evert crows in disbelief.) They lift weights above their shoulders though the sore scars in their chests aren’t entirely healed, and they hit on the tennis court, though in Navratilova’s case, the effort to chase a ball even two steps leaves her winded, and in Evert’s, it makes her feel clumsy-footed and angry, until she reminds herself, Chrissie, who do you think are? And then she calls Navratilova, and they both laugh at themselves in this companionable frailty.
There are statues of Arthur Ashe at the U.S. Open, Fred Perry at Wimbledon, Rod Laver at the Australian Open and Rafael Nadal at the French Open. The blazers who run the major championships have not yet commissioned sculptures of these two women, who so unbound their sport and gave the gift of professional aspiration to so many. Yet who exemplify, perhaps more than any champions in the annals of their sport, the deep internal mutual grace called sportsmanship.
But then, they don’t need bronzing. They have something much warmer than that. Each other.
by nelslus It is rare that an article makes me cry. I selfishly want all of my back-in-the-day favorites to be immortals.
by nelslus Albeit, I also thought it was deeply unkind to refer to Janet Newberry- a very good player back in the day- as a "grossly inferior player". That was IMO completely unnecessary in an otherwise beautifully written article.
by texasniteowl Wow. That was a great read. Like nelslus...tears in my eyes.
by ponchi101 The un-answerable question. Had they not had each other, had the one existing reached 25+ slams? Or would that person simply have been satisfied with the level she had and not pushed herself to the excellency they both achieved?
by meganfernandez Such parallels with Roger and Rafa (except they never didn't like each other). This line fits: "It’s as if they were purposely constructed to test each other — and to whip up intense reactions from their audiences." I've always thought Roger was the perfect carrot for Rafa to chase and motivate him to greatness, and their stylistic differences were much like Chris and Martina's. One right and one lefty, too.
Hate this construction, though: "The parallels were funny, until they weren’t." One of my pet peeves. It doesn't say anything. Everything is the way it is until it's not.
by ponchi101
meganfernandez wrote: ↑Mon Jul 03, 2023 5:25 pm
Such parallels with Roger and Rafa (except they never didn't like each other). This line fits: "It’s as if they were purposely constructed to test each other — and to whip up intense reactions from their audiences." I've always thought Roger was the perfect carrot for Rafa to chase and motivate him to greatness, and their stylistic differences were much like Chris and Martina's. One right and one lefty, too.
Hate this construction, though: "The parallels were funny, until they weren’t." One of my pet peeves. It doesn't say anything. Everything is the way it is until it's not.
Exactly.
by ti-amieExclusive: WTA investigating multiple player-coach relationships
Work to combat power imbalances between coaches and players risks being ‘deprofessionalised and deligitimised’ by ongoing relationships
By
Simon Briggs,
TENNIS CORRESPONDENT
26 June 2022 • 5:57pm
Two high-profile coaches are under investigation by the WTA Tour for engaging in unprofessional, potentially abusive relationships with their players, Telegraph Sport understands.
Affairs between players and coaches are alarmingly common on the women’s tour, leading one top coach to suggest that the situation “deprofessionalises and deligitimises” the whole sport. But the WTA leadership – spurred on by recent revelations from 1980s champion Pam Shriver in these pages – are at least showing signs of addressing this long-standing problem.
A new post – “director of safeguarding” – has been advertised by the WTA. Behind the scenes, meanwhile, some coaches have noticed a more open and interested attitude from the tour's leadership towards reports of concerning behaviour.
There are still critics, however, who believe that the lack of an anonymous hotline for such reporting is a sign of a deeper lack of commitment.
Two leading coaches have spoken to Telegraph Sport about the need for action in a world where other sports do more to police such boundaries. “I have never seen so many boyfriends who are also coaches in women’s tennis than now,” said Vladimir Platenik, an experienced Slovakian coach who has worked with the recent French Open semi-finalist Daria Kasatkina among many other well-known names.
“There were cases before, but right now it’s a little bit too much for my taste. The problem is here are some coaches, they are hitting on every player they coach. It’s something very weird, because actually the prize money went up, the girls do earn enough money to pay the good coaches. But it’s like a trend.”
The point was echoed by Marc Lucero, who is at Wimbledon this week with his latest client Steve Johnson, but has also worked with a number of successful American women including Shelby Rogers and Alison Riske.
“When this happens, it deprofessionalises and delegitimises our whole sport,” said Lucero. “There are clearly some bad actors who abuse the power dynamic between them and the players, either through undermining them mentally or entering into relationships that cross acceptable boundaries.
“It’s something that’s always there, and it just creates an environment that is not great for anyone – though it obviously does a particular disservice to the player. The players are invariably younger: some of them are in their teens and still maturing. It starts from a place where the power dynamic is very imbalanced. This can create psychological and emotional impact and trauma that is felt for years.”
A third coach, who works with a grand-slam champion, told Telegraph Sport anonymously that “It’s clear such behaviour is absolutely wrong and these coaches should be banned from the tour.”
Expelling coaches can be technically challenging in an individual sport that involves independent contractors, rather than the more top-down structures we see in team sports. But there have been examples of coaches having their credentials cancelled in the past.
An alternative solution might be to create a new system of licensing for all team members – because it is not only coaches who often cross the boundary into personal relationships with their players, but sometimes also fitness trainers or other support staff.
Asked whether the WTA are investigating the behaviour of any specific coaches at the moment, a spokesperson replied “In the case that any investigations may have or are taking place, we would not be at liberty to comment. Player safety is of the utmost importance to the WTA and our commitment to that remains resolute.”
by mmmm8 Good direction but really the first and primary focus should be from ITF on grooming and sexual abuse against juniors and not being more "open" to reports.
The fact that they were motivated by Shriver's allegations when it's less than an open secret that this happens all the time is a little sad.
by meganfernandez
by mmmm8 Quite the story. Andy is a class act.
by meganfernandez
mmmm8 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 05, 2023 3:36 pm
Quite the story. Andy is a class act.
Gobsmacked. How cool. Glad she is okay.
by ti-amie Jon Wertheim with the latest on the WTA. It ain't pretty.
Sorry to say that the women's game has descended again into "who's this? vs. who's this?" Can anyone name the top 3 players? Anonymity has returned.
Dominic Ciafardini
• This, sadly, is a sentiment you hear too often, especially among casual fans and non-fans. I’d say it’s too harsh by an order of magnitude. There is a player who is barely 22 and has already won four Majors. Since 2022: Serena Williams retired; a reigning No.1 (Ash Barty) retired; Naomi Osaka is pregnant; as is another multi-Major winner, Angie Kerber; a surprise, multi-ethnic star (Emma Raducanu) can’t stay healthy; Garbine Muguruza is a on a mental health hiatus; another multi-Major winner, Simona Halep, is facing a doping ban. That is a lot of lost star wattage.
Still, my concern for women’s tennis as a product is minimal. My concern for the WTA as a business is broad. It’s a far less sexy topic than Tsitsi-dosa or who wears what attire or even scheduling gripes … and yes, this is deep inside baseball, but the WTA—and I would love to be wrong here—appears to be headed for crisis:
This CVC deal is baffling. Earlier this year, for $150 million on a $750 valuation—less than the Ottawa Senators, by the way—CVC got 20% equity in the WTA. Two-thirds of the $150 million equity stake (loan?) is going to fund equal prize money. Sidestepping the semantic question (is it really equal prize money if it is so artificially created?), one wonders: really? You take on venture capital largely to fund more prize money? This is great for the players (and their agents) and for optics, but is this really a long-term strategic growth plan? This is really going to build the business? This is really going to shore up the tour’s balance sheets? How exactly? And what happens when the ATP avail themselves the funding dangled by the Saudi Private Investment Fund. Their purses will skyrocket. How then will the WTA shortfall be covered to ensure this “equality" remains?
The WTA is actively shopping for a home for the Year-End Finals, historically the tour’s single biggest source of revenue. Wait, wait, wait … what? Wasn’t this the entire reason the WTA reversed course, capitulated morally and returned to China after its much-publicized stance? You’re going back to China, but not holding your lucrative year-end event there? You didn’t lock that in before your announcement? This is like someone separating from their spouse, disparaging (justifiably, in this case) the spouse publicly to the world, demanding an independent investigation into their spouse’s alleged infelicities … and then deciding to reunite and move back in … but failing to first consult with their partner and, you know, make sure reconciliation was still on the table as an option. The WTA lost face and crawled back to China bouquet in hand—“Here honey, I bought you these”—only to realize the locks had been changed and honey had moved on.
How do you spurn China on the grounds “its values don’t comport with ours” only to engage with Saudi Arabia, where homosexuality is criminalized, men can access wife-tracking apps, democracy is non-existent and the brave soul who successfully spearheaded the women-should-be-able-to-drive campaign was arrested and is currently forbidden from leaving the country? Is Saudi Arabia progressing culturally? Probably. Is the presence of the WTA a force of good and progress and Westernization? Yes. Is the Saudi Federation led by a woman? It is. But is this a curious landing space for the WTA after such vocal and unified moral condemnation of China barely a year ago? 100%.
When a universally-adored broadcaster noted that “Rybakina is Russian, came from Russia, and moved to Kasatkina,” everyone had a good chuckle. But there was something revealing there. With zero disrespect for the players or their homelands, we are not in an era of well-known stars, nor of players from commercially ideal countries. In the last 18 months (with Williams, Barty, Raducanu, and Osaka retired or missing) the WTA lost anchors in the U.S., Australia, Japan and U.K. The current “Big Three” represent Poland, Belarus and Kazakhstan. Commercially—I stress: commercially; this is no way a dig at the players, who are awesome, or their nations of origin—the top of the sport is not ideally positioned right now for a business heading into the global marketplace.
Credible sources tell me that Wimbledon would have been interested in making the $150 million investment in the WTA. And would have done so with terms favorable to those offered by CVC. Saudi Arabia would have done a similar deal as well. This is just a series of misplayed hands, and the WTA’s own hand weakens.
Private equity is the financial equivalent of the honey badger. It don’t care. For all the flowery press releases, and positioning as a “strategic partnership,” this CVC investment was not made for reasons of altruism or nobility or for a belief in Title IX and the spirit of Billie Jean King. CVC saw a distressed enterprise and went into predator mode. Assuming this is set up like most private equity deals, CVC, in addition to its equity stake, gets a guaranteed annual return on its investment. Where’s that return coming from? Not the $100 million devoted to equal prize money. Not the WTA Finals, which in mid-July, still lack a home. When CVC doesn’t get its premium, it will simply dig in its talons.
John Adams: “There are two ways to conquer and enslave a nation: One is by the sword. The other is by debt.”
Maybe Saudi Arabia saves the day, and it (over)bids to host the year-end event. Or it buys off CVC at a multiple, and takes over that 20% equity stake. Or comes up with a new entity, LIV-golf style. But if you care about women’s tennis and want to see it succeed (we plead guilty) I don’t know how you could look at this fact pattern objectively, and not come away deeply concerned.
by ti-amieWTA, CVC launch partnership to increase women's tennis revenues
Associated Press
Mar 7, 2023, 09:15 AM ET
The women's professional tennis tour launched a commercial enterprise with CVC Capital Partners on Tuesday to increase revenues for the sport, with the investment manager contributing $150 million for a 20% stake in what will be known as WTA Ventures LLC.
"Obviously, the ambition is to materially grow women's professional tennis. Grow our profile, its value, the prize money," WTA Chairman and CEO Steve Simon said. "This arrangement is certainly going to provide for us to create more investment opportunity to our players and our tournaments."
He said the new entity is completely separate from St. Petersburg, Florida-based WTA Inc., which oversees the tour itself, and will manage all of the sport's commercial activities, including rights for broadcast, data, gaming, sponsorship, licensing and NFTs.
"We can begin, hopefully, gaining more audience and more engaged fans," Simon said. "That will then drive the asset value of each of those properties through the growth of the audience."
In late 2021, Simon announced that the WTA would be suspending all of its tournaments -- including the season-ending WTA Finals -- that were held in China because of concerns over the safety of former player Peng Shuai, costing the tour millions of dollars. That ban on competition in China remains in place; Simon said there will be a decision about where to hold this season's WTA Finals by the end of March.
He called the CVC investment "completely unattached from any of those issues."
Simon also said the agreement announced Tuesday "doesn't prohibit, in any way, from us continuing to have discussions with the ATP (men's tennis tour) and potentially doing a bigger deal with the ATP involved."
CVC says on its website that it is a "global alternative investment manager" with more than 137 billion euros ($145 billion) in assets under management.
It has worked with Formula One, European soccer leagues, rugby, volleyball and other sports.
The WTA-CVC partnership has been in the works for a while, from the initial concept to the work to complete the deal over the past 12 months.
by ponchi101 As you say. It isn't pretty.
But what if the product simply does not sell? Yes, I know; us here at TAT2.0 do watch women's, and they have delivered Slams finals (this year) that have been way more compelling that the ATP. But I am also sure that if I go and ask any Colombian to name me 3 of the top 10 players in the WTA, they will not be able.
by Suliso Maybe an unpopular opinion, but I think WTA should quietly abandon this artificial drive for an equal prize money. They'll just bankrupt themselves by trying. At Slams and Miami/IW yes, but otherwise it's financially impossible. It's like NHL players asking to be paid as much as NBA. Deservedly so perhaps, but the interest for their product is more limited...
by meganfernandez
Suliso wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 10:25 am
Maybe an unpopular opinion, but I think WTA should quietly abandon this artificial drive for an equal prize money. They'll just bankrupt themselves by trying. At Slams and Miami/IW yes, but otherwise it's financially impossible. It's like NHL players asking to be paid as much as NBA. Deservedly so perhaps, but the interest for their product is more limited...
I think it's reasonable at combined events. Will the WTA's costs (its portion of the purse) go way up, or is the tournament putting up most of the difference?
It's an interesting point.
by ponchi101 Or is the ATP subsidizing the WTA? If that were the economics' truth, should they?
(I say yes, but that is me).
by meganfernandez
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 3:55 pm
Or is the ATP subsidizing the WTA? If that were the economics' truth, should they?
(I say yes, but that is me).
That's the question. Do the tours kick in more, or just the WTA, or the tournaments/sponsors, or all three?
If the answer is the tours, then we can also say the top players are subsidizing the nobodies. Their involvement carries the tournaments.
by ti-amie
What people forget is that tennis fans have long memories. People want to forget that it was his behavior, and that of his family, that turned many people off. I don't think it's fair to make this into an anti Eastern European bias situation.
by ponchi101 Us oldies with long memories.
Goran never had this problem; he was respected and liked. And he did say a few things that were not perfect (I never minded them).
Marat never had this problem either. He was also well liked.
Let's not even bring up Sharapova, who was beloved by everybody (and I was completely aghast of that, as she was really not a nice person. I give her credit for her helping Monica Puig in Puerto Rico; my hat off there).
Lendl had a bit of issues in the USA; he was very respected out of there (many people really liked him in S. America).
The Russian brigade of women players never had such issues. Some were not that popular (Kutnezova, for example) but there is a difference between that and being disliked.
Kafelnikov was disliked because he simply refused to please anybody. And the extent of that was that he basically had no endorsements because of that image, but nothing else.
Popular eastern europeans: Mario Ancic, Coric, Cilic, Hurkacz, Iga, Radwanska. A brief list.
by patrick
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2023 9:04 pm
Us oldies with long memories.
Goran never had this problem; he was respected and liked. And he did say a few things that were not perfect (I never minded them).
Marat never had this problem either. He was also well liked. Let's not even bring up Sharapova, who was beloved by everybody (and I was completely aghast of that, as she was really not a nice person. I give her credit for her helping Monica Puig in Puerto Rico; my hat off there).
Lendl had a bit of issues in the USA; he was very respected out of there (many people really liked him in S. America).
The Russian brigade of women players never had such issues. Some were not that popular (Kutnezova, for example) but there is a difference between that and being disliked.
Kafelnikov was disliked because he simply refused to please anybody. And the extent of that was that he basically had no endorsements because of that image, but nothing else.
Popular eastern europeans: Mario Ancic, Coric, Cilic, Hurkacz, Iga, Radwanska. A brief list.
Agree on Sharapova as she had that look of being not a nice person. Defeating Serena at Wimbledon jumpstarted her life especially after hearing that her parents came to US with very little money when she was wrong.
by nelslus
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2023 9:04 pm
Us oldies with long memories.
Goran never had this problem; he was respected and liked. And he did say a few things that were not perfect (I never minded them).
Truly, I am exhausted to have to call this out. So- if "good naturedly" or whatever, Goran had used the "n' word multiple times during press interviews, would you not have minded this? Would you call this as his being "not perfect"?
I also get that Goran is not the only player to have used the "f***ot" term multiple times- Agassi, etc. As a tennis fan- I was happy in some ways that Goran managed to finally win Wimbledon. But, this happiness was diluted.
Heterosexual men among us here, I beg you not to make any argument to dismiss this- that it's a cultural thing, no real harm meant, or whatever. It's offensive- and, with the amount of LGBTQ+ members who have been in this site- I wish this point were fully understood, once and for all.
by ponchi101 And you are one of the oldies with a good memory.
My point was: Goran was not disliked. Right or wrong, he never got to that state. So, if people are saying that Novak is not appreciated BECAUSE he is Eastern European, there are plenty of examples that that is not the case.
Should Goran have been disliked for the comments he made? Different conversation.
by nelslus
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 15, 2023 5:33 pm
And you are one of the oldies with a good memory.
My point was: Goran was not disliked. Right or wrong, he never got to that state. So, if people are saying that Novak is not appreciated BECAUSE he is Eastern European, there are plenty of examples that that is not the case.
Should Goran have been disliked for the comments he made? Different conversation.
About Novak, I can agree. But, when you make the statement "And he did say a few things that were not perfect (I never minded them)", you made this part of the entire conversation. Which IMO merits being called out. As for Goran- a majority of the LGBTQ+ community is going to remember multiple uses of derogatory terms made by any public figure.
by ponchi101 Ok. I will yield.
by JTContinental The pandemic was the death knell for Novak’s already shaky public image
by Suliso Fully agree. Without covid his reputation would be far better. Number of GS won higher too.
by JTContinental Alexander Zverev is facing another assault charge, this time by Brenda Patea, the mother of his child.
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 15, 2023 5:33 pm
And you are one of the oldies with a good memory.
My point was: Goran was not disliked. Right or wrong, he never got to that state. So, if people are saying that Novak is not appreciated BECAUSE he is Eastern European, there are plenty of examples that that is not the case.
Should Goran have been disliked for the comments he made? Different conversation.
About Novak, I can agree. But, when you make the statement "And he did say a few things that were not perfect (I never minded them)", you made this part of the entire conversation. Which IMO merits being called out. As for Goran- a majority of the LGBTQ+ community is going to remember multiple uses of derogatory terms made by any public figure.
Goran is that guy who casually and publicly used the word f@@got, that's how I think of Goran, not as a slam champion.
by mmmm8
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 10:51 pm
It is getting hard to stand by this guy.
If true: let the full penalty of law fall on him.
are you saying you still are standing by him?
This time it's not even the woman only that's accusing him. The police have gathered sufficient evidence. How can people still believe his quite inept defense attempts over quite a lot of evidence that he's an awful person? Yes, innocent unless proven guilty is the concept, but it's applicable for punishment, not fandom.
by mmmm8
ti-amie wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2023 8:49 pm
is fans have long memories. People want to forget that it was his behavior, and that of his family, that turned many people off. I don't think it's fair to make this into an anti Eastern European bias situation.
I think she, specifically, is not saying the double standard for Djokovic is because he's Eastern European. Those were two separate thoughts. One, that she thinks he's representative of a certain Eastern European work ethic and two, that he's been judged more harshly than Rafa and Roger. But I don't think she was connecting those two thoughts. (I know others have)
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 10:51 pm
It is getting hard to stand by this guy.
If true: let the full penalty of law fall on him.
are you saying you still are standing by him?
This time it's not even the woman only that's accusing him. The police have gathered sufficient evidence. How can people still believe his quite inept defense attempts over quite a lot of evidence that he's an awful person? Yes, innocent unless proven guilty is the concept, but it's applicable for punishment, not fandom.
My position has been that leagues and tours should not get involved in issues that, to me, should be handled by the legal systems of countries. Switching sports, I do not agree with the NBA's position over the Ja Morant incident when no crime has been committed. And, in the NFL, the league drove Ricky WIlliams out of the sport for smoking pot (sure, against the league's rules) but when Aaron Rodgers spends the summer doing ayawaska and boasting about it, you got crickets. The leagues are too inconsistent.
I stood with Zverev in his previous issue because no charges were ever filed and therefore no crimes were stated. It was a "he said/she said" issue, and I don't like the court of public opinion to make those calls. We saw in the Kyrgios case that the situation had more nuances, and Nick was not the monster that some were too quick to paint. Now, this case seems different; as you say (and thanks for informing me), the police this time has sufficient evidence. So, throw the book at him. But let it be the German Legal System, not the ATP.
And I stood by him because I really like his game; the BH is a thing of beauty. But, as I said above, I don't think I will be able to do that anymore. He is off the list.
by Suliso I've been off Zverev fan train for a long time now (was I ever on?). It's also easier to forget about him now that his game and results have declined.
Having said that any punishment is indeed for courts and law enforcement not tennis players union.
by skatingfan Professional organizations, leagues, and companies can have standards of behaviour and code of conduct that can result in professional sanctions when violated.
by ashkor87 Zvonareva was not allowed to enter Poland...
Getting sickening..is she a Russian spy or something?!
by skatingfan
ashkor87 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 3:07 am
Zvonareva was not allowed to enter Poland...
Getting sickening..is she a Russian spy or something?!
Well, it wouldn't be the first time that an athlete has been used as a state agent. According to the statement from the Polish government Zvonareva is on a list of Russians whose entry to Poland is blocked for security reasons. I don't think we'll ever know the reason for that, but I would think it should have been communicated to Zvonareva at some point before she entered the tournament, or certainly before she got on a flight.
by ashkor87 the larger question is - should a country that bars someone from entering, for a purely political reason, be allowed to host a WTA/ATP event? If it is allowed, it is a Pandora's box, it will destroy the game (in my opinion) - tomorrow, Turkey will stop Swedes from entering, Greece will stop Turks, and, as for Americans, there is no shortage of USA's enemies, is there?
if someone can show me that Zvonereva is an actual Russian agent - even if she has advocated the invasion of Ukraine, that is permitted speech, isnt it?
by Suliso Is it ok for Pakistanis to come to India for sporting events and vice versa?
by ashkor87 Yes..recent difficulties have mostly been around safety concerns in Pakistan
But to be fair, I don't defend/support the misguided policies of ANY government..
by ponchi101 This is a government decision, not a decision by the tournament. The tournament is not run by the government, so these are two separate entities.
And, what is a government there for if not to make decisions like this one? If the Polish government believes that Zvonareva poses a risk for the country (admittedly, a bit of a stretch) then they have to act on their assessment.
by mmmm8
ashkor87 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 12:03 pm
the larger question is - should a country that bars someone from entering, for a purely political reason, be allowed to host a WTA/ATP event? If it is allowed, it is a Pandora's box, it will destroy the game (in my opinion) - tomorrow, Turkey will stop Swedes from entering, Greece will stop Turks, and, as for Americans, there is no shortage of USA's enemies, is there?
if someone can show me that Zvonereva is an actual Russian agent - even if she has advocated the invasion of Ukraine, that is permitted speech, isnt it?
It doesn't seem like Poland is banning all Russian people (although I don't think they're issuing many new visas to Russians), she must have gotten on a sanctioned list for a reason - the speculation is it's because she has an honorary military rank. That said, other Russian athletes do too. Could also have to do with her off-court activities, I think she interned or did some work at the Russian foreign ministry as part of her master's degree.
by ponchi101 Serious question here. Although this sounds like something from a spy novel. IF the Russian government/FSB were to ask a private citizen to do something on their behalf, could such a citizen refuse? Or would such citizen meet an inconveniently placed banana peel while walking along an 8th floor balcony?
by mmmm8
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 24, 2023 3:37 pm
Serious question here. Although this sounds like something from a spy novel. IF the Russian government/FSB were to ask a private citizen to do something on their behalf, could such a citizen refuse? Or would such citizen meet an inconveniently placed banana peel while walking along an 8th floor balcony?
I don't know if that question is specific to the Russian government, it might be for any government with a developed internal/external security service.
I think the threat in this situation is always publicity, so I don't think those type of services ask random citizens that without getting leverage first. (but I may have read/watched too many spy books/films)
by skatingfan If this got posted already I apologize because I missed it, and couldn't find anything.
American tennis player Jenson Brooksby accepted a provisional suspension from the International Tennis Integrity Agency on Wednesday after being accused of missing three doping tests in a 12-month period, he told The Associated Press.
“Taking the provisional suspension is the best decision that we have to make right now,” Brooksby, a 22-year-old from Sacramento, California, said in a telephone interview. “I’ve never failed a drug test. I’ve never taken any bad substances.”
He plans to go to arbitration with the ITIA, which oversees doping cases in tennis.
Under antidoping rules, athletes can be penalized without a positive test if they have three “whereabout failures” within a year’s span.
“‘Whereabouts’ is a pretty tough requirement for them, with how much they’re traveling,” said Howard Jacobs, a lawyer working with Brooksby. “There’s no allegations he took any banned substances and we’re confident about” the case’s outcome.
Jacobs said he expects there to be an arbitration hearing for Brooksby in the next few months.
Jacobs also represents Simona Halep, the two-time Grand Slam champion who recently had a hearing related to charges the ITIA brought against her after she failed a drug test at last year’s U.S. Open.
Brooksby has been ranked as high as No. 33 and is currently at No. 101 after going nearly six months without competing because he needed two operations for dislocated wrist tendons: on his left arm in March, and on his right in May.
He has not played on tour since January, when he upset three-time Grand Slam runner-up Casper Ruud in the second round of the Australian Open before losing to eventual semifinalist Tommy Paul in the third.
Shortly after that tournament, Brooksby split from his longtime coach, Joseph Gilbert.
“Since Australia, it’s, for sure, been the toughest part of my life, having to deal with so many different issues. The wrists were a struggle. Then at the same time, leaving my coach who I had been with since I was 7 years old. But professionally and personally, that was the right thing to do,” he said. “And there is also the doping thing, all within this period. Personal issues, too. I’m really just looking forward to being back on the court and the tour and putting all of it behind me.”
The best run for Brooksby at a major tournament was getting to the fourth round at the 2021 U.S. Open. That’s when he went up against Novak Djokovic — and took a set off of him — but bowed out 1-6, 6-3, 6-2, 6-2.
“The provisional suspension is not an admission that I have done anything wrong; to the contrary, I have denied this charge and am waiting for an arbitration with an independent tribunal. The protocols of the anti-doping program are in place to protect the integrity of our sport, and I respect and support these protocols,” Brooksby wrote in a press release sent to the AP by his advisor, Amrit Narasimhan.
The statement adds that “one of the alleged missed tests” happened in June 2022 two days before the start of an ATP tournament in the Netherlands, and Brooksby writes that he “was at the official tournament hotel where I said I would be, and in my hotel room, and the time that I had said I would be there.”
“It’s frustrating,” Brooksby said in the interview with the AP. “I’m looking forward to giving them all of the evidence.”
Narasimhan said Brooksby received a letter on June 7 from the ITIA notifying him of a potential rule violation.
“We knew all along that we would probably have to go to arbitration to get this dismissed,” Narasimhan said. “Brooksby has not had a soda in five years. ... That’s how clean this guy is.”
by ponchi101 Isn't this the second ATP player suspended for missing tests?
by ti-amie
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 7:57 pm
Isn't this the second ATP player suspended for missing tests?
Yes. Mikael Ymer (the younger) got suspended for 18 months for the same reason.
by ashkor87 Brooksby story seems very sad. I think officialdom has become too powerful..time to rein it in (yes, that is the spelling)..my own preference would be to dismantle the entire structure of testing and let players do whatever they want...in the end, we can hope the example of Djokovic snd Brooksby will prevail. There are simply too many ways to game the system, any system.
by Oploskoffie
ashkor87 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 12:39 am
Brooksby story seems very sad. I think officialdom has become too powerful..time to rein it in (yes, that is the spelling)..my own preference would be to dismantle the entire structure of testing and let players do whatever they want...in the end, we can hope the example of Djokovic snd Brooksby will prevail. There are simply too many ways to game the system, any system.
Just so we're clear about things: what do you mean by "do whatever they want"?
by mick1303
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 15, 2023 5:33 pm
And you are one of the oldies with a good memory.
My point was: Goran was not disliked. Right or wrong, he never got to that state. So, if people are saying that Novak is not appreciated BECAUSE he is Eastern European, there are plenty of examples that that is not the case.
Should Goran have been disliked for the comments he made? Different conversation.
The level of dislike by fans is not necessarily linked only to player's actions on and off the court. Let's be honest - to a very high degree it is influenced by how much said player beaten the favorites of fans in question and taken the glory and achievements from these favorite players. Lendl was "disliked" because Connors and McEnroe had large and influencial fanbases that despised the fact that in the 2nd part of his career Ivan pretty much owned those two.
Goran on the other hand lost all pivotal matches to Sampras/Agassi. So this reason for disliking him is out of the window.
Now imagine how much suffering Novak caused to Nadal and Federer fans... If we combine him being "an outsider" (Eastern European) with that - we might have the real reason for dislike.
by mmmm8
ashkor87 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 12:39 am
Brooksby story seems very sad. I think officialdom has become too powerful..time to rein it in (yes, that is the spelling)..my own preference would be to dismantle the entire structure of testing and let players do whatever they want...in the end, we can hope the example of Djokovic snd Brooksby will prevail. There are simply too many ways to game the system, any system.
Leaving aside the question of fairness, I think this would also endanger the health of many players. Many of these athletes start competing seriously as pre-teens or early teens, and are fully in the hands of coaches, overbearing parents and/or sponsors. Imagine allowing doping at that age. As an argument, meldonium, when it was legal, was given to most athletes in post-Soviet countries starting from their teens, according to many players. But meldomium is not harmful (for vast majority). Imagine HGH. Young people would die.
by ponchi101 Plus, imagine the differences in availability of PED's depending on your country. The USSR, China and East Germany had full fledged, government backed labs for their athletes in the 70's and 80's. Or imagine the rich athletes, being able to find the best chemist to prepare the best cocktails.
Or, as you say. Imagine a slightly smaller than average junior players in the hands of one of those psycho parents, with dad deciding that he would need a large, regular dose of HGH.
There is a reason most players are in agreement with these regulations.
by Suliso This idea of let's allow everything might sound attractive for few minutes but when you think about consequences a bit longer you realize that it's just not going to work. Same goes for heroin and cocaine legally over the counter. It will never be possible to completely eradicate rape or murder either, but from that doesn't follow that we should not do all we can to suppress them.
by meganfernandez
Suliso wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 2:56 pm
This idea of let's allow everything might sound attractive for few minutes but when you think about consequences a bit longer you realize that it's just not going to work. Same goes for heroin and cocaine legally over the counter. It will never be possible to completely eradicate rape or murder either, but from that doesn't follow that we should not do all we can to suppress them.
It might sound naive, but there's something to allowing everything based on individual choice. Rape and murder involve victims; me choosing to do a drug doesn't, if I understand the potential for addiction and abuse. Who gets to decide what's a safe drug and what's an illicit drug? Those who profit off them, right?
by ponchi101 I agree that hard drugs over the counter should not be allowed. But, they should also be de-criminalized. The Portugal experiment has gone well. No need to also impose criminal penalties for something that is a personal choice. Make sure that treatment is readily available, though.
by Suliso
meganfernandez wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 4:20 pm
It might sound naive, but there's something to allowing everything based on individual choice. Rape and murder involve victims; me choosing to do a drug doesn't, if I understand the potential for addiction and abuse. Who gets to decide what's a safe drug and what's an illicit drug? Those who profit off them, right?
What if taking drug X not only makes you high, but also makes you 10x more likely to commit rape and murder? It is an exaggerated example to show that it's not black or white.
Another example, you might understand potential for abuse and addiction but the bill for treating you will still fall on tax payers (even in US to some extent).
by Suliso Also "regular" women will have little chance in women's sport. Only the ones pumped full with male hormones (see East Germany). Would we really want that?
meganfernandez wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 4:20 pm
It might sound naive, but there's something to allowing everything based on individual choice. Rape and murder involve victims; me choosing to do a drug doesn't, if I understand the potential for addiction and abuse. Who gets to decide what's a safe drug and what's an illicit drug? Those who profit off them, right?
What if taking drug X not only makes you high, but also makes you 10x more likely to commit rape and murder? It is an exaggerated example to show that it's not black or white.
Another example, you might understand potential for abuse and addiction but the bill for treating you will still fall on tax payers (even in US to some extent).
None of these things are black and white. I lean more toward individual liberty, although certainly there needs to be some regulation for public health. But right now, let's be honest, I can get Adderall from a doctor but can't get cocaine, and I don't think that's for the sake of public health or anyone's security. Alcoholism takes a heavy toll, too.
I don't take either, by the way. One toke of a joint is the extent of my lifetime drug use. Food is my drug, unfortunately. We wouldn't dream of regulating food, but it causes public health crises and creates a burden on the healthcare system, too. If we really wanted to stem crime like rape and murder, we'd focus more on prevention, education, etc. - proactive stuff instead of control and reactions. Idealistic? Maybe but not science fiction.
by skatingfan My concern about free use of performance enhancing drugs in sports is that these substances would be pushed on very young athletes before they are old enough to make the decision for themselves.
by ashkor87 very complex issue, I agree.. it is just that, everywhere we turn, we see officials, government and otherwise, telling us what we should and should not do. Individual liberties dont matter to them - just their vision of a perfect world..
by Suliso There are some areas of the World where government power doesn't reach. They tend to be awful places to live...
by ponchi101 I am beginning to live in one. Both the general government of Colombia and the government of Bogota are being unable to control crime, and there is a clear spike of it.
My GF is a bit afraid of going out at night; I told her we will not be locked in because of that (we are locked in due to other reasons). But sure, there is a reason why governments exists.
However, about controlling substances. It is an old question. Do you accept tobacco? I can't recall any country that does not, despite the obvious health issues. Alcohol? We know Muslim countries don't, but countries like Pakistan and Afghanistan are far from peaceful. How about cannabis? We can see that in the USA, which is the sole country in which some states do and others don't, the states with legalization are more peaceful than those that have not. Portugal decriminalized ALL drugs (not legalized) and they have not seen increases in crime or health issues.
Difficult to find a balance.
by skatingfan
ashkor87 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 27, 2023 7:06 am
Individual liberties dont matter to them - just their vision of a perfect world..
This is nonsense. These officials are still just people trying to do the task that they have been assigned, and they certainly don't have a broader vision for a perfect world. When it comes to sports, athletes, and the officials that regulate the sport everyone says that they want a fair field of play, and I think the public does to, and that means having a system of testing and accountability for violations.
ashkor87 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 27, 2023 7:06 am
Individual liberties dont matter to them - just their vision of a perfect world..
This is nonsense. These officials are still just people trying to do the task that they have been assigned, and they certainly don't have a broader vision for a perfect world. When it comes to sports, athletes, and the officials that regulate the sport everyone says that they want a fair field of play, and I think the public does to, and that means having a system of testing and accountability for violations.
I agree with what I highlighted. If everyone is doping then why should anyone but cookers/chemists watch sports? There's nothing for an average Joe or Jane to see since they're not seeing a competition between athletes but a competition between drug companies/makers.
by ti-amie
by ponchi101 Sorry. Agree with the WTA in this one. You cannot punish somebody for liking some social media post. As atrocious as that can be.
And Andreeva is only 16. One must wonder if she understands the entire scope of this war, or is taking in Russia's propaganda.
by skatingfan
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 27, 2023 8:53 pm
Sorry. Agree with the WTA in this one. You cannot punish somebody for liking some social media post. As atrocious as that can be.
And Andreeva is only 16. One must wonder if she understands the entire scope of this war, or is taking in Russia's propaganda.
At the same time I hope someone at the WTA is talking to Andreeva, and her team about this sort of thing. The WTA may not be able to sanction her for this behaviour, but the fans, and the media can.
by Owendonovan She's proving herself to be quite the charmer.
by JTContinental I can't help but wonder why Yastremska was trolling Andreeva's social media after a crushing loss earlier in the week.
by Owendonovan
JTContinental wrote: ↑Fri Jul 28, 2023 12:04 am
I can't help but wonder why Yastremska was trolling Andreeva's social media after a crushing loss earlier in the week.
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 27, 2023 8:53 pm
Sorry. Agree with the WTA in this one. You cannot punish somebody for liking some social media post. As atrocious as that can be.
And Andreeva is only 16. One must wonder if she understands the entire scope of this war, or is taking in Russia's propaganda.
At the same time I hope someone at the WTA is talking to Andreeva, and her team about this sort of thing. The WTA may not be able to sanction her for this behaviour, but the fans, and the media can.
This made me wonder.
What is a Russian player were to come out openly in favor of Russia in this war? I know, I know, we are in agreement of which side is the one doing the aggression. But what if there is somebody that is a Russian patriot and believes Russia is right?
Could anything be done by the governing bodies?
by skatingfan
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 28, 2023 3:47 pm
This made me wonder.
What is a Russian player were to come out openly in favor of Russia in this war? I know, I know, we are in agreement of which side is the one doing the aggression. But what if there is somebody that is a Russian patriot and believes Russia is right?
Could anything be done by the governing bodies?
I don't see that either tour would take steps to sanction such behaviour. Sabalenka came closest to crossing the line with some of her statements, though that was before the war. All of the players are reliant on Western companies for their clothing, shoe, and racquet deals so doing such a thing would come with a serious financial risk.
by ti-amie wta
@WTA
WTA statement pertaining to athletes denied entry into Czech Republic:
The WTA emphatically condemns the war in Ukraine and the reprehensible actions of the Russian government. The WTA also continues to support the Tour’s Ukrainian athletes – as well as all WTA athletes – who face immense challenges as professional athletes while many of their loved ones and their country face attacks from Russia.
Individual WTA players whose nationality is Russian/Belarusian continue to compete on the Tour on a neutral basis. Despite their neutrality, some WTA players are being denied by Czech government authorities the ability to compete at the WTA 250 event scheduled to be held in Prague next week.
WTA rules state that all players must be allowed to compete on the WTA based solely on merit, without discrimination. We will continue to review the situation as we factor important considerations around these complex geopolitical issues
by ponchi101 And what can the WTA? It already tried to boycott China over another moral issue, and we saw how that went.
Gonna take tournaments out of Czechia and Poland? Uhm...
by skatingfan
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 29, 2023 1:53 am
And what can the WTA? It already tried to boycott China over another moral issue, and we saw how that went.
Gonna take tournaments out of Czechia and Poland? Uhm...
There was never any consequences for the tournament (Qatar?) that didn't let Israeli Sharhar Pe'er compete.
by Owendonovan I'm fine denying publicly pro-war Russians and Belarussians anything and everything. Ef em.
by ashkor87https://www.tennis.com/news/articles/ru ... -in-prague
Note that they are stopping ALL Russisns not just those they think pose a security risk. The tours should cancel those tournaments...they did sanction Wimbledon, why not these?
by ponchi101 Wimbledon was the one that made the decision NOT to allow Russian and Belarusian players to play (in '22). These stops for Russian and Belarusian citizens come from the governments.
It is the sole difference, but a considerable one.
by ashkor87
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 12:18 am
Wimbledon was the one that made the decision NOT to allow Russian and Belarusian players to play (in '22). These stops for Russian and Belarusian citizens come from the governments.
It is the sole difference, but a considerable one.
I suspect the UK government pressured Wimbledon..and the entire Tory upper class..
Anyway, what is the difference? If it was the tournament's decision, the tournament should be de-recogmized, as it was..if it was the country's decision, they should not be awarded a tournament..same result!
by Suliso All of Eastern Europe except Hungary are strongly anti Russia. So no surprise here.
by ashkor87 No surprise.. but is it fair? To kasatkina for instance?
by Owendonovan Ultimately, the Russian population allowed Putin to run the show his way a long time ago. Sometimes, you have to pay a price for the poor choice your parents generation made. That's just life.
by Suliso Life is not always fair. In many sports Russians are banned outright.
by ponchi101 The alternative is not so nice, either. Just play tournaments and allow Russians and Belarusians play as if nothing is happening is not a high moral ground.
by skatingfan
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 4:13 pm
The alternative is not so nice, either. Just play tournaments and allow Russians and Belarusians play as if nothing is happening is not a high moral ground.
Maybe ideally there would be no mention of nationality tied to the players careers, but between the Olympics, other team competitions, and funding that is tied to national sporting bodies that is probably an impractical solution.
by tenniswizard The content discusses how eating has become mindless in our busy lives. Mindful eating is presented as a transformative approach to reconnect with the eating experience by being aware, grateful, and enjoying every bite. The article explores the practice of mindful eating and its potential benefits for overall well-being.
by ti-amie Making time for a quiet meal is very difficult especially for people with children who also have hectic schedules. I'm at the point now where I can carve out an hour twice a day to enjoy a meal.
by meganfernandez
ti-amie wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 6:04 pm
Making time for a quiet meal is very difficult especially for people with children who also have hectic schedules. I'm at the point now where I can carve out an hour twice a day to enjoy a meal.
It strikes me as an extreme luxury and kind of idealizing this notion, as if all the generations before us were mindful eaters and we've let it go. They weren't. I doubt early humans were mindful eaters - they wolfed food to survive. The family dinner was more common in the past, but it doesn't mean they were eating mindfully. The ideal is somewhere in the middle.
I get the point - people, including myself, gobble bad food in our cars. But the answer isn't to find hours to make a spiritual connection to all the produce on my plate. If you can and want to, great. I don't want to spend my precious time that way. For me, mindful eating is planning and making smart decisions and enjoying the food and occasionally using food to gather people together. I tend to spend a lot more time cooking (on occasion, not daily) than eating. That connects me to it a little more.
Portions are out of control in the US. They have become spectacles totally unrelated to what we need or want.
by Suliso I don't believe in any spiritual connection to food. However, I do believe in eating well if at all possible. We make time to cook 5-6 times per week.
by ponchi101 Until very recently, the vast majority of humans ATE TO SURVIVE.
There is a very good, evolutionary reason why we are omnivores. As small and weak and slow as we are (compared to other mammals), being able to eat anything and everything was a superb evolutionary advantage. Just think about how few species actually share that trait.
by ti-amie It's not so much a spiritual connection with food. It's taking time to savor the process of eating itself. Paying attention to what you eat is part of it but it is a luxury and everyone can't indulge it.
The family dinner was a time for everyone to sit down and talk about their day, what's on their minds, and check in with each other. With parents working late hours and if they live in the burbs having an hour or more to commute home, with kids having sports practice or academic studies that are more and more computer based the idea of having time to sit around the table to just talk does sound odd. Some cultures manage to do it and others struggle with it.
by mmmm8 I don't really follow college sports... There are 317 Division 1 teams? Isn't that supposed to be the more elite division? why so so many?
by tenniswizard Certainly! Here's some more information to help you navigate the NCAA Eligibility Center as a tennis athlete:
Consider NCAA Division I or Division II: The NCAA consists of three divisions, but Division I and Division II are the two divisions where tennis programs are most prevalent. Division I tends to have larger and more competitive programs, while Division II offers a balance between academics and athletics. Choose the division that aligns with your athletic and academic goals.
Maintain Contact with Coaches: Throughout your high school career, it's crucial to stay in touch with college coaches. Attending tennis tournaments, showcasing your skills, and sending highlight videos can all help coaches evaluate your potential to contribute to their team.
Meet the Amateurism Requirements: The NCAA has strict rules regarding amateurism, which means you must not receive any payment or benefits for playing tennis. Be cautious about accepting prize money or sponsorships that could jeopardize your eligibility.
Seek Academic Support: Balancing academics and athletics can be challenging, especially as you prepare for college. Consider seeking academic support, such as tutoring or time management assistance, to ensure you meet the eligibility requirements.
Complete the NCAA Amateurism Certification: As part of the eligibility process, you'll need to complete the NCAA Amateurism Certification. This involves answering questions about your amateur status and potential involvement in professional sports.
Apply for Eligibility: Once you've completed your junior year of high school and have gathered all the required information, submit your transcripts, test scores, and amateurism certification to the NCAA Eligibility Center. They will review your information and determine your eligibility status.
Stay Committed to Academics in College: After you become a college athlete, academic performance remains crucial. NCAA student-athletes must meet specific academic progress requirements to remain eligible throughout their college career.
Explore Other Eligibility Pathways: If you don't meet the initial eligibility requirements for Division I or Division II, there are other options to consider, such as attending a junior college, where you can compete in sports while working on your academics to become eligible for a transfer to a four-year institution.
Be Proactive and Prepared: Navigating the NCAA Eligibility Center can be a complex process, so it's essential to be proactive and prepared.
by ti-amie The rumor is that Cincy will be moved to Charlotte. And yes that's Emma Navarro's dad.
$400M tennis campus proposed for west Charlotte to host ‘prestigious’ tennis tournament
By Alexandria Sands | May 22, 2023
Views: 11,650
Editor’s note: This story was updated on May 22, 2023 with the latest information.
A Charleston firm is asking the public to invest in a $400-million, four-stadium tennis campus at the River District in west Charlotte.
What’s happening: Beemok Sports is looking for a new home for the Western & Southern Open. The rights to the tournament, held in the Cincinnati area, were acquired by Beemok from the United States Tennis Association in September.
Why it matters: This could be the biggest economic development win for the city of Charlotte in years.
The project would put the Masters 1000 tournament, one of the “most prestigious trophies in all of tennis,” close to the Charlotte Douglas International Airport and in the heart of the River District, a 1,400-acre mixed-use development underway.
Details: Beemok has dubbed its plan “Project Break Point.” It’s asking the City of Charlotte and Mecklenburg County to help cover one-third of the price tag, around $130 million. The City of Charlotte is looking at contributing $60 million to $70 million in hospitality funds. The State of North Carolina could also partner.
Plus, the airport could provide 100 acres for parking, which the city could use for other large-scale tourism events it hosts, assistant city manager Tracy Dodson says.
The campus would host 200 events a year, including collegiate and junior championships, pickleball matches, festivals and concerts, Beemok’s Ford Perry said during a joint city and county economic development committee meeting Wednesday.
Residents would be able to play on the courts at a cost. The company charges a $10 hourly rate at its Charleston location. There would be free hours for school children and need-based residents.
By the numbers: The Western & Southern Open would be a two-week event each August. Proponents say it would have an annual economic impact of around $265 million, drawing approximately 350,000 attendees. That’s more than the 2022 President’s Cup and Wells Fargo Championship.
The TV audience reaches 62.7 million viewers, per Beemok’s presentation.
The campus itself would draw 650,000-plus attendees a year.
The intrigue: Beemok Capital is owned by Charleston billionaire Ben Navarro, who tried to buy the Carolina Panthers in 2018 before David Tepper ultimately did.
Beemok operates Credit One Stadium in Charleston, which will host a slate of musical acts, including Dave Matthews Band, and hosts the Charleston Open.
What’s next: Beemok hopes to relocate the tournament by 2026. It is considering other locations — it hasn’t mentioned which ones, besides Cincinnati where the tournament is currently held — so the city must act fast to stay in the running.
To meet the tight timeline, city council and county commissioners would need to make a decision about public funding soon — possibly within the next two months. Perry said they want to decide on a long-term location for the tournament by summer.
“Charlotte has always been top of our list with respect to what the opportunity could be for this tournament,” Perry said.
Catch up quick: The River District, once complete, will span 1,400 acres. It’s set to reshape west Charlotte with more than 5,000 residences, offices and retail, and 1,000 hotel rooms.
Developer Crescent Communities is conserving 550 acres as open space, including 30 parks and 30 miles of trails that could intersect with the tennis complex.
Construction is underway at the River District. The first homes will be finished in 2024.
Of note: Nonprofit Carolina Serves has also proposed a Charlotte racquet complex at the old Eastland Mall site in east Charlotte. But the city is entertaining another pitch for an athletics, events and esports center called QC East and has floated the idea of building a publicly owned sports tourism venue.
by skatingfan Charlotte does sound nicer than Mason, Ohio, but I feel badly for the people of Mason who have supported this tournament for so many years.
by meganfernandez
skatingfan wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 2:01 am
Charlotte does sound nicer than Mason, Ohio, but I feel badly for the people of Mason who have supported this tournament for so many years.
Mason is Cincinnati, and Cincy and Charlotte are pretty comparable. Mason is a suburb but plenty of players and fans shoot downtown if they want to. Traffic isn't bad.
One thing I love about the Cincy tournament is that the city isn't a distraction. At every other big tournament, you're constantly choosing between the tennis and the world-class location. When I go to the US Open, I'm torn between spending time in the city or at the tournament, especially at night. Never in Cincy. You can geek out on tennis all day and evening with no regrets, but like any city, it has interesting neighborhoods and restaurants and bars if you feel like exploring or doing something else. I'd say the same about Charlotte, too. It's not like being in Paris and feeling guilty about spending all your time at the tournament.
by JTContinental Anisimova is going to college in the fall somewhere in Florida
by meganfernandez
JTContinental wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 3:33 am
Anisimova is going to college in the fall somewhere in Florida
Wow. She could be taking classes this semester and planning to return to tour next season. I doubt she is eligible to play NCAA. Nova is a top D2 tennis program anyway, not D1. They were national runner-up last year. The university down the street from me is also a top D2 program and plays Nova sometimes, so I'd heard of it.
by ti-amieGender pay gap questioned again at Cincinnati tennis tournament
Despite playing at the same venue and three-set format, the prize money for the men was $6.6 million, while the women competed for $2.8 million.
By Gilbert Ngabo Sports Reporter
Monday, August 21, 2023
The gender pay gap issue in tennis was once again front and centre at last weekend’s Western & Southern Open.
Despite playing at the same venue and in the same three-set format, the total prize money at the Cincinnati tournament for the men was $6.6 million (all figures in U.S.), while the women competed for just under $2.8 million.
That meant Novak Djokovic took home $1,019,335 after beating Carlos Alcaraz in Sunday’s epic four-hour showdown, while 19-year-old Coco Gauff received $454,500 in a straight sets win over Karolina Muchova.
As a runner-up on the men’s side, Alcaraz took home $556,630 —more than Gauff received as a champion which angered some tennis fans.
“This is shameful,” Robin Bradford wrote on the X platform, formerly known as Twitter. “The total prize money for the women isn’t even equal to what the men had ... in 2012.”
Critics of the pay gap point out that some women tennis players such as the now-retired Serena Williams and Victoria Azarenka attract bigger crowds than some of their male counterparts at these high-profile tournaments, yet still get paid significantly less.
“These are independent women who surely don’t need the men from the ATP to top up/subsidize the women’s prize fund. If they pull the same crowds, then where is the money going?” questioned Dustin Gorski.
Among other reasons, tennis officials say the pay difference is primarily driven by the value of the broadcast and sponsorship deals.
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The gender pay gap issue in tennis was once again front and centre at last weekend’s Western & Southern Open.
Despite playing at the same venue and in the same three-set format, the total prize money at the Cincinnati tournament for the men was $6.6 million (all figures in U.S.), while the women competed for just under $2.8 million.
That meant Novak Djokovic took home $1,019,335 after beating Carlos Alcaraz in Sunday’s epic four-hour showdown, while 19-year-old Coco Gauff received $454,500 in a straight sets win over Karolina Muchova.
ARTICLE CONTINUES BELOW
As a runner-up on the men’s side, Alcaraz took home $556,630 —more than Gauff received as a champion which angered some tennis fans.
“This is shameful,” Robin Bradford wrote on the X platform, formerly known as Twitter. “The total prize money for the women isn’t even equal to what the men had ... in 2012.”
Critics of the pay gap point out that some women tennis players such as the now-retired Serena Williams and Victoria Azarenka attract bigger crowds than some of their male counterparts at these high-profile tournaments, yet still get paid significantly less.
“These are independent women who surely don’t need the men from the ATP to top up/subsidize the women’s prize fund. If they pull the same crowds, then where is the money going?” questioned Dustin Gorski.
Among other reasons, tennis officials say the pay difference is primarily driven by the value of the broadcast and sponsorship deals.
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Prior to the start of the Cincinnati tournament, former world No. 1 Andy Murray suggested the ATP and the WTA should work together.
“I always felt like when we’re competing at the same event on the same courts, that we should be playing for the same prize money,” Murray said, according to tennis365.com
“I don’t think it’s that straightforward just now, that both tours have different sponsors, different TV deals and all of that stuff too.”
The same pay disparity exists in the doubles, with winners Máximo González and Andrés Molteni getting $312,740, while Taylor Townsend and Alycia Parks got $133,840 for taking the women’s title.
The four major Grand Slam competitions — U.S. Open, Wimbledon, French Open and Australian Open — have for years offered equal pay, despite the men competing in the best-of-five sets while women play a best-of-three. Several other marquee tennis tournaments also offer equal prize money, but a number of others continue to face criticism including the Italian Open.
At the 2023 National Bank Open in Canada, the men’s purse is $6.6 million while the women split just under $2.8 million.
But the Canadian competition, which alternates its men’s and women’s site between Toronto and Montreal, has started the process to equally distribute the prize money between men and women by 2027. The plan is to gradually reshape the commercial model with an extended competition schedule as new means to generate more revenues.
Canadian tennis star Denis Shapovalov published an article last March in the Players’ Tribune critical of the pay gap, pointing that it highlights the existing problem of gender inequality in general.
“Maybe I’m being cynical, but I think some people might think of gender equality as mere political correctness. Deep down they don’t feel that women deserve as much, you know? And that’s terrible,” Shapovalov wrote.
“So let’s give everyone the same chance. Let’s pay out the same prize money. Let’s stop talking about reducing the gender gap. If we want tennis to be fair, it should not exist at all.”
by ti-amie The Craig Shapiro Tennis Podcast
@Shaptennispod
Sources telling me announcement next week that WTA Finals will be played in Riyadh. saudi arabia The Bin Salmon Tour is imminent. Newport ATP license is up for sale, Saudis will buy it, and Gaudenzi will move to more advantageous date.induction will remain, just no tournament
by ponchi101 I doubt they will show the WTA finals here. But, if they do, I will not watch them. No way I am going to patronize a Saudi Arabian tournament.
by ashkor87 One more reason to cut back on oil!
by Suliso Oil is still absolutely everything you do. Hard to cut back on...
by ponchi101 Cutting back on Saudi Arabia is not the same as cutting back on oil.
by Suliso
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 3:01 pm
Cutting back on Saudi Arabia is not the same as cutting back on oil.
That's for sure, but I was answering to ashkor87
by Owendonovan
ti-amie wrote: ↑Wed Aug 23, 2023 11:13 pm
The Craig Shapiro Tennis Podcast
@Shaptennispod
Sources telling me announcement next week that WTA Finals will be played in Riyadh. saudi arabia The Bin Salmon Tour is imminent. Newport ATP license is up for sale, Saudis will buy it, and Gaudenzi will move to more advantageous date.induction will remain, just no tournament
Gross.
Will the winner have to wear a Hijab to receive her trophy or will it just be given to her male coach?
Should we prepare a thread on how Bin Salman has decided he's going to "LVI" the ATP and WTA, because it feels like it's coming. He's done it to golf, and is doing it to soccer now.
by ti-amie WWE rcently did a show there and the women had to wear outfits that didn't reveal much skin.
The two female stars shared a teary embrace after the match Credit: WWE
by Owendonovan If women would only stop being temptresses, men wouldn't be so tempted.
Follow-up - tennis doesn't need the money? Does the WTA have another big source of investment coming, or do you see the potential for some sources that haven't been found?
by Owendonovan They don't need Saudi money.
by meganfernandez
Owendonovan wrote: ↑Mon Aug 28, 2023 2:42 am
They don't need Saudi money.
I'm saying the reporter should have gotten to Mac elaborate, if possible. Maybe s/h/they did and those comments are elsewhere. I want to know why he thinks the sport can do without $X billion, or whatever the Saudis are going to invest. Is there other untapped potential? Is the sport doing okay as-is? How would Saudi involvement hurt more than it would help?
by skatingfan
Owendonovan wrote: ↑Mon Aug 28, 2023 2:42 am
They don't need Saudi money.
If they want to pay the same as the ATP, they probably do.
Owendonovan wrote: ↑Mon Aug 28, 2023 2:42 am
They don't need Saudi money.
If they want to pay the same as the ATP, they probably do.
I suppose, if they prefer money to dignity.
Many people do.
by ponchi101 Look at the golfers. The PGA is a far more profitable tour than the WTA. Their career lifespan is much longer. All those players are loaded.
LIV tour? Sure, no problem.
I have never been offered a million dollars to do anything. I will give the WTA and everybody else the benefit of the doubt because I don't know how low I would stoop.
And anyway, this is not illegal.
Having said that, I will not watch the WTA YEC, and if there is a petition to sign against it, I will.
by meganfernandez
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 28, 2023 4:23 pm
Look at the golfers. The PGA is a far more profitable tour than the WTA. Their career lifespan is much longer. All those players are loaded.
LIV tour? Sure, no problem.
I have never been offered a million dollars to do anything. I will give the WTA and everybody else the benefit of the doubt because I don't know how low I would stoop.
And anyway, this is not illegal.
Having said that, I will not watch the WTA YEC, and if there is a petition to sign against it, I will.
You know, I'd watch it. I hope this doesn't happen but if the players are okay with it, I am. I guess I don't grasp the worst complexities or potentials of the situation. My outrage button isn't going crazy.
by ti-amie I'm with ponchi. The ME can hardly be called woman friendly but SA is the worst of the bunch.
by ti-amieVerdict: Ymer gave false information - blamed his brother
Updated yesterday 08:29 Published yesterday at 07:46
This is paywalled so I will post the translation done by a fan.
MoozeRiver
OP
Newcomer
·
16 hr. ago
"A sick brother was the reason Mikael Ymer missed a doping test in August. At least that's what the tennis star claimed, who has now retired.
According to Ymer, he stayed up all night and accidentally fell asleep shortly before the test.
The problem? Ymer's younger brother was in Finland at the time.
The Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) wrote in its judgment, which has now been made public:
'The ITF (International Tennis Federation) has presented evidence that the player's younger brother was at a tournament in Finland at the time, which means that the player's description cannot be true. The player then withdrew his objection,' writes CAS.
On another occasion, Ymer had said that he stayed in Spain after being knocked out of the Barcelona Open. In fact, he had traveled to Ethiopia, writes CAS.
Ymer missed another test and was banned from professional tennis for 18 months for violations of doping rules. At the time, he was Sweden's highest-ranked tennis player.
Shortly thereafter, he chose to end his career, claiming the suspension was 'unfair.'"
No wonder they came down so hard on him.
by ponchi101 Did he think we still live in the 1920's? It is not as if Google does not know where you are all the time.
by ti-amieMen's and women's tennis tours to discuss game-changing merger
Exclusive: A meeting has been arranged for later this month, in an attempt to stave off a potential Saudi takeover of the sport
By
Simon Briggs, TENNIS CORRESPONDENT, IN NEW YORK
3 September 2023 • 12:13pm
The men’s and women’s tennis tours have taken the first steps towards a historic merger, by inviting executives and tournament representatives to a two-day summit in London at the end of this month.
Three years after Roger Federer called for the Association of Tennis Professionals (ATP) and the Women’s Tennis Association (WTA) to unite, the bosses of the two organisations – respectively Andrea Gaudenzi and Steve Simon – are finally looking to align the tours and pool their assets.
If the initiative goes to plan – and that is a big “if” – it will be a game-changer. Tennis has long been hamstrung by its disunited governance, and although the four grand slams would remain separate from any unified tour, this would still be a transformational move.
The summit comes after months of speculation about Saudi Arabia’s interest in tennis. It seems that the spectre of LIV golf, and the fear of a tennis equivalent, has prompted the tours to act with some urgency.
Another concern is the challenge from the rival player union founded by 23-times major champion Novak Djokovic – the PTPA – which has been gradually expanding its influence since its establishment four years ago.
All these moving parts have contributed to a febrile atmosphere among tennis administrators, who held non-stop meetings in New York throughout the first week of the US Open.
Men’s players may be protective over prize money
Gaudenzi and Simon called the London summit a few days ago, and still have many hurdles to clear before they can say that any merger is official. Each body has its own commercial partners and its own deals for TV rights and data rights, while some tournaments may be impractical to run as combined events.
The very word “merger” is open to many different interpretations. But as long as Gaudenzi and Simon remain committed to the idea – and can convince their respective boards of its merits – then they should be able to draw the ATP and the WTA closer and closer together, step by incremental step.
The least enthusiastic stakeholders will probably be the male players. Despite the provision of equal prize money at the majors, they earn about 75 per cent more than their female equivalents. Were the tours to become one, they would fear a financial redistribution.
Yet Gaudenzi and Simon would surely argue that, if tennis were able to act in a more cohesive manner, the size of the whole pie would soon expand.
Saudis want to host more tennis events
While the Saudi issue has been the source of much angst over the past week, Gaudenzi and Simon may also see such tensions as an opportunity, helping them to bounce tennis’s stakeholders towards a long-awaited union.
Even so, both organisations must still work out a strategy for dealing with the Middle East. Until late last week, the WTA were leaning towards staging their finals event in Riyadh in seven weeks’ time. But public opposition from the likes of Martina Navratilova and Chris Evert – who have both highlighted Saudi Arabia’s regressive stance on women – appears to have changed the mood. The tournament is now expected to be held in the Czech Republic, although there is also a Mexican bid in play.
As for the ATP, they have discussed Saudi Arabia’s desire to become part of the tennis establishment – and specifically to add a 10th Masters 1000 event in Riyadh to the nine which already make up the main pegs of the men’s tour.
But when would the new Masters tournament be played? There is hardly any space in the calendar, however much the ATP would like to bring the Saudis inside the tent. Admittedly, the Next Gen ATP Finals were recently awarded to Jeddah, Saudi Arabia’s second city, but that may not be enough to satisfy them.
Potential scheduling options for a 10th Masters include October, December and early January, but all three have drawbacks. The first would involve squeezing Riyadh between two existing Masters in Shanghai and Paris, while the second would extend a season that is already seen as overlong. The third would be a direct challenge to Tennis Australia’s new United Cup event.
Another issue is the ATP’s long history with Qatar, which has staged a 250-point tournament in Doha for the past 30 years. Nasser Al-Khelaifi – the former Futures-level player who now runs the Qatar Tennis Federation as well as the Paris Saint-Germain football club – could potentially cause trouble if a new event in Riyadh were to overshadow his.
‘One voice, women and men together’
These are turbulent times in the world of tennis, but potentially promising ones as well. Any progress on a unified tour would no doubt please Federer, who published a tweet in April 2020 asking: “Am I the only one thinking that now is the time for men’s and women’s tennis to be united and come together as one?”
His question did not impress Nick Kyrgios, who reflected the overall feeling of the men’s locker room when he immediately responded with the answer: “Yes”.
But Billie Jean King, who originally founded the WTA 50 years ago, was more receptive. “I agree,” she wrote, “and have been saying so since the early 1970s. One voice, women and men together, has long been my vision for tennis. The WTA on its own was always Plan B. I’m glad we are on the same page. Let’s make it happen.”
by ashkor87 Looks like the wta is surrendering the battle BJK started 50 years ago..it can only be bad for the women..they will become second-class citizens again. We already know the media behaves as if only men's matches matter...if it is left to the media market, the women may as well take up pickleball..I still don't get why the WTA is headed by a man. Let us hope his ego will prevent this deal from happening!!
by FredX
ashkor87 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 10:54 am
Looks like the wta is surrendering the battle BJK started 50 years ago..it can only be bad for the women..they will become second-class citizens again. We already know the media behaves as if only men's matches matter...if it is left to the media market, the women may as well take up pickleball..I still don't get why the WTA is headed by a man. Let us hope his ego will prevent this deal from happening!!
Though it would seem BJK disagrees.
Men's tennis is more popular and profitable than women's tennis, so if the goal is to equalize pay, the money has to come from somewhere. If it doesn't come from repressive regimes looking for a PR overhaul, then where does it come from except the larger overall tennis industry? - i.e. redistributing the revenue from the more profitable men's tour to expand the sport overall. I assume the idea is that everyone stands to make more money in the long run, but it could mean the men will have to give up their oversized share of the pie now in the short term - which seems to be where the resistance is coming from.
While there is a pay disparity between men and women tennis players, there is less of it than in other sports that have an independent professional women's league, and I can only think that's because of high profile major tournaments that showcase both men and women players and have made people like the Williams sisters into stars. Yesterday ESPN featured Coco instead of Tiafoe , and Saturday they featured women's doubles on the third largest court. Obviously this is because of Coco's star power, but that's where it begins, and seems to happen less often when say the Tennis Channel is showing smaller men's and women's tournaments happening at the same time. I can only think a move to make more high profile combined events - starting with the Masters - will only help the profile of the women's game and create more leeway to redistribute the profits of the whole industry, as long as some sort of pay guarantees are met in the negotiations, which I can't imagine not happening if the WTA agrees to it.
A separate tour was absolutely necessary in the days of Jack Kramer, and was obviously an important step for professional women's tennis, but I'm not sure it makes the most sense today.
by meganfernandez Would this be the second sports league to combine men and women after the NBA? If that even counts.
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by ponchi101 Name me one time in history in which one group of people took a pay cut so that another, different group of people, would get more? Meaning, direcly, that the men of the ATP would subsidize the women of the WTA.
Which I don't think is the concept of equality people are looking for.
by nelslus I mean- I wish, every now and then, people would agree to do the right thing. Because- you know- it's the right thing.
In any case, at the very least, it is beyond insulting that at the combined events (Cincinnati, Montreal, etc.) there is such a disparity in the pay. That should be fixed immediately.
I've always felt that, with a combined tour, and really great management teams, PR teams (etc), all players would benefit.
But, with capitalism, sexism, and all that- it just ain't likely to happen. Profoundly sad to me. All of this has been going on for so long.
by FredX
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 5:00 pm
Name me one time in history in which one group of people took a pay cut so that another, different group of people, would get more? Meaning, direcly, that the men of the ATP would subsidize the women of the WTA.
Which I don't think is the concept of equality people are looking for.
Ideally, not necessarily a pay cut long term, but certainly a pay percentage reduction. That's essentially what equal prize money at the US Open is, right? I would guess the answer is convincing the men that this will be good for the sport, and that even if they are getting a smaller proportion, everyone will end up making more money in the end because of increased revenue all around. That's the carrot. The stick is making it more and more untenable for your personal brand to be against equal pay, which of course effects endorsements etc.
by ponchi101 Serious question, I am not putting anyone on.
Should the two tours merge and all prize money be set to be the same by decree? Without any analysis of the economics?
by nelslus
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 5:18 pm
Serious question, I am not putting anyone on.
Should the two tours merge and all prize money be set to be the same by decree? Without any analysis of the economics?
I mean, you know my answer- yes. But, LOL, not like my opinion (or, obviously, any of our opinions) makes any difference in such matters.
by meganfernandez
ponchi101 wrote:Name me one time in history in which one group of people took a pay cut so that another, different group of people, would get more? Meaning, direcly, that the men of the ATP would subsidize the women of the WTA.
Which I don't think is the concept of equality people are looking for.
Then pay the stars more money, regardless of gender. Pay Coco a lot more than Rune, Ruud, Rublev or Fritz.
Sexism is the main reason fans and sponsors devalue women’s sports. It’s the long tail from a time whose values and attitude toward women
we now disavow in theory, but not fully in practice. So yes, please compensate for the lingering injustice.
And we won’t complain when Ruud gets more than his share based on popularity.
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by skatingfan
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 5:18 pm
Serious question, I am not putting anyone on.
Should the two tours merge and all prize money be set to be the same by decree? Without any analysis of the economics?
Based on stats like this, yes because the economics already support paying the athletes more.
ponchi101 wrote:Name me one time in history in which one group of people took a pay cut so that another, different group of people, would get more? Meaning, direcly, that the men of the ATP would subsidize the women of the WTA.
Which I don't think is the concept of equality people are looking for.
Then pay the stars more money, regardless of gender. Pay Coco a lot more than Rune, Ruud, Rublev or Fritz.
Sexism is the main reason fans and sponsors devalue women’s sports. It’s the long tail from a time whose values and attitude toward women
we now disavow in theory, but not fully in practice. So yes, please compensate for the lingering injustice.
And we won’t complain when Ruud gets more than his share based on popularity.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Totally agree
by meganfernandez
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 5:18 pm
Serious question, I am not putting anyone on.
Should the two tours merge and all prize money be set to be the same by decree? Without any analysis of the economics?
I'd say they should merge with the primary goals of:
establishing maximum value for their constituents - players, fans, host sites, and sponsors;
modeling equality among and respect for all athletes;
growing the sport worldwide;
something about being devoted to fairness in competition.
Then everything flows from there. Establish a mission/vision and values and do whatever economic analysis serves the purpose.
It's a great opportunity to demonstrate to the world that tennis can lead the way in equality, is dedicated to the highest human values, and is visionary and bold. There's something about tennis that lends itself to this ambition. There's no clock in tennis - you don't stop until the job is done, the last point earned. The same can be said for the fight for equality. I think tennis is a game of mutual respect and maybe even honor - you don't steal the ball or a base, for instance. Is breaking someone's serve the same thing? Maybe I am being too grandiose or mawkish about this, but in a way tennis is the perfect game, and from it can some a model of perfection for how to treat each other. Kind of riffing here.
by ashkor87 I totally endorse your view, @meganfernandez..you are not riffing..
by skatingfan
by JTContinental Genie Bouchard has announced that she will join the pickleball tour full time in 2024
by ponchi101 How the mighty have fallen.
If she were 35+, sure, go for it. At her age, what an admission that she can't play anymore. Sorry for her.
by meganfernandez
ponchi101 wrote:How the mighty have fallen.
If she were 35+, sure, go for it. At her age, what an admission that she can't play anymore. Sorry for her.
Kinda sad.
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by ashkor87 Well,maybe pickleball becomes bigger than tennis and Genie will be a pioneer..who knows!
by meganfernandez
ashkor87 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2023 12:51 am
Well,maybe pickleball becomes bigger than tennis and Genie will be a pioneer..who knows!
Maybe the protestors should go to pickleball.
by nelslus
JTContinental wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 10:43 pm
Genie Bouchard has announced that she will join the pickleball tour full time in 2024
ashkor87 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2023 12:51 am
Well,maybe pickleball becomes bigger than tennis and Genie will be a pioneer..who knows!
Maybe the protestors should go to pickleball.
.....Protesting "surrounded" by 50 sad little pickleball audience members might not be as effective.
by ponchi101 I wonder how effective this brand of protest is, anyway. Interrupting a tennis match, even if there is 20,000+ people in the stands, is as effective as throwing tomato paste at an invaluable piece of art.
I'm not quite sure what to think of this just yet. Four years, that's a potentially/probably career ending (and for many defining) punishment.
by ti-amie This drug is not something that can accidentally be found in your system. I think that they wanted to be fair to her and that is why they went to her blood passport where they found incontrovertible evidence of doping.
I can say I liked Halep and it's sad to have it confirmed that she was doping.
I also don't think Mouratoglou or Cahill knew what was going on as both men have too much to lose to know and then look away.
From the BBC link upthread:
Roxadustat is an anti-anaemia drug which stimulates the production of red blood cells in the body.
by ti-amie
This is blue checked although it means nothing on Xitter. This could be a random "fan"
by Oploskoffie
ti-amie wrote: ↑Tue Sep 12, 2023 7:03 pm
This drug is not something that can accidentally be found in your system. I think that they wanted to be fair to her and that is why they went to her blood passport where they found incontrovertible evidence of doping.
I can say I liked Halep and it's sad to have it confirmed that she was doping.
Indeed and, sadly, agreed. My doubts about what to think of all this were not so much about the actual ruling, but the process for both tennis professionals and other atheletes who, guilty or not, have to deal with an often very lengthy period of uncertainty while further research is carried out and/or reports are written. Understandably and obviously, reaching the right conclusion is essential, but at what cost to the possibly innocent? Loss of earnings? Miss a chance to compete at an olympic games? And, of course, the public remembering the fact that at some point in time you were suspected of cheating, regardless of it possibly having been proven otherwise. Mention the name Rusedski and almost twenty years on one of the first words that comes to my mind is nandrolone. Or what about the case of Peter Bol: https://www.smh.com.au/sport/athletics/ ... 5dsv6.html
No solutions from me at this time, though it'd be great if doping authorities could speed things up. Pun intended.
by Owendonovan Will Simona have to give back any titles and prize money? I'm curious if the doping is only considered from the time you test positive and forward.
by meganfernandez
Owendonovan wrote: ↑Tue Sep 12, 2023 11:08 pm
Will Simona have to give back any titles and prize money? I'm curious if the doping is only considered from the time you test positive and forward.
Maria didn't, right? She had one positive test, and I don't know if they can pinpoint which matches it affected. If they can't, it would be unfair to make her relinquish titles she might have legitimately won.
by Oploskoffie To the best of my knowledge, and also going by results from a couple of other sports, points, titles and prize money are only lost if attained on or after the date the sample determined to contain the forbidden substance(s) was taken from the athlete's body.
There is, nowadays anyway, the possibility of retesting at a future date to look for any kind of doping that would not yet have been detectable at the time of the initial test. There's a couple of olympic athletes who have lost their medals years later. Not sure if that is going to be done by/for the ATP/WTA and what the consequences would be for the player's results between those points in time if they did.
by ti-amie If I'm Halep instead of trying to drag everyone down I'd be screaming from the rooftops about the Pova precedent regarding my titles.
by JTContinental "People refused to admit it but I always knew I was the rightful winner of Indian Wells 2015. Simona's ban today proves it. Shoutout to my fans for keeping #JankovicWonIW15 relevant." --Jelena Jankovic
by ponchi101
Oploskoffie wrote: ↑Wed Sep 13, 2023 7:52 pm
To the best of my knowledge, and also going by results from a couple of other sports, points, titles and prize money are only lost if attained on or after the date the sample determined to contain the forbidden substance(s) was taken from the athlete's body.
There is, nowadays anyway, the possibility of retesting at a future date to look for any kind of doping that would not yet have been detectable at the time of the initial test. There's a couple of olympic athletes who have lost their medals years later. Not sure if that is going to be done by/for the ATP/WTA and what the consequences would be for the player's results between those points in time if they did.
Usain Bolt got stripped of one of his Olympic golds when one of HIS TEAM MATES IN A RELAY tested positive, years after the race.
by skatingfan There's an 8 year statute of limitations on the redistribution of awards.
by Oploskoffie And then there's this...
The expert who looked at a hair sample says Simona Halep is innocent of the charges for which she has been banned for four years
This is off-topic, but it's gross that websites can steal others' work and sell ads around it. (In this case, it's a Mouratoglou ad, which is laughable.) This blog or article or whatever only quotes a L'Equipe article, and significantly. If they had framed their story as "L'Equipe finds expert to support Halep's claim," that's news and then they can summarize and quote lightly. But they just reuse L'Equipe's hard work. It passes the plagarism "heart-of-the-matter" test only because L'Equipe doesn't care to fight it. But there's no reason to click through and read the L'Equipe article. It's pure theft.
Oploskoffie wrote: ↑Wed Sep 13, 2023 7:52 pm
To the best of my knowledge, and also going by results from a couple of other sports, points, titles and prize money are only lost if attained on or after the date the sample determined to contain the forbidden substance(s) was taken from the athlete's body.
There is, nowadays anyway, the possibility of retesting at a future date to look for any kind of doping that would not yet have been detectable at the time of the initial test. There's a couple of olympic athletes who have lost their medals years later. Not sure if that is going to be done by/for the ATP/WTA and what the consequences would be for the player's results between those points in time if they did.
Usain Bolt got stripped of one of his Olympic golds when one of HIS TEAM MATES IN A RELAY tested positive, years after the race.
Well, it was a relay so of course he was Have to take it away from the whole team.
by meganfernandez There are two discussions going on about Halep, one here and one in Off-Court Shenanigans. Should we choose just one? I posted some highlights of the report in the other one after reading 50 pages.
by skatingfan
meganfernandez wrote: ↑Thu Sep 14, 2023 4:40 pm
There are two discussions going on about Halep, one here and one in Off-Court Shenanigans. Should we choose just one? I posted some highlights of the report in the other one after reading 50 pages.
It should be in this thread. The other thread is for social media, and other off-court stuff that tennis players are involved with.
by ti-amie The full report has been released and it is damning to say the least. I'm going to make a separate thread for it because WOW
Count me as a fan from now on. HUGE fan. Finally, somebody that put stuff in perspective.
When she's older, she'll realize that pain, disappointment, pressure, depression, etc. aren't relative to anyone else's misery or misfortune. I like her and she is mature beyond her years, that's for sure.
by ponchi101 But she is keeping some perspective. I like that she understands that within that range of emotions you describe, keeping the perspective that pressure to win a tennis match is not the same as the pressure to pay for your kids' food is important.
Ages ago, when Becker was at the top, he was asked about how he dealt with defeats. He replied along the lines that "I just tell myself that the worst thing that can happen to me is that I lose a tennis match on a Sunday afternoon". I thought that was a healthy approach.
DEPRESSION, in upper case, is not the same as sadness; that is what I disagree with some people about. Being sad is not fun, but it is not the same as being depressed. The way I read her statement is that sure, nobody is expecting for you to be elated after losing a big match. Of course you can be sad (and most probably will be). But keep a little perspective and remind yourself of how well you are doing, and that may help avoid depresion.
by ti-amie Tumaini Carayol
@tumcarayol@sportsbots.xyz
During the past four years, the ITF transformed the Davis Cup with Kosmos, ploughed on with Kosmos even as people wondered whether the £ added up, ended its $3b partnership with Kosmos 21 years early and ended up in court with Kosmos. And yet:
by ponchi101 And the Laver Cup experiment seems to be stalling.
So there is a real need for a country-based event. The Laver Cup is not it, and this silly DC format does nothing for people and players. How this man was re-elected is beyond me.
by ti-amie
Since everyone is now issuing statements I thought it might be best to move the discussion here.
I think what has pissed Rybakina off is this: If you made the semis in Rome you were given a "bye" in Madrid. That meant that you played almost to the end or to the end of the tournament. In this situation it does seem that the WTA is backhanding Rybakina for not playing Guadalajara and they have a point. You opted not to play so you're rested and you don't need the "bye". I've seen this situation described as both a trial and a part of the rules.
Either way I think both sides have valid arguments.
by ponchi101 Simplest solution: GET RID OF BYES. The rest of the world does not get BYES in their jobs. I does not matter how highly ranked or lowly ranked you are, if the draw is 5 rounds, EVERYBODY plays five rounds.
But if you make the finals of last week, you get to play the last shift of the first round of the next.
I said it already: it is becoming a bit too prima donna.
by ti-amie Juan Ignacio
@juanignacio_ac
By the official rules, the WTA was forced to pay last week $350,000 to the Guadalajara organization because of the number of Top 10 players that skipped the event
The scheduling mess they pulled off having a direct impact on their finances, who would've thought
It actually might be even more, because rules don't even include the case in which only 3 Top 10 players attend a non-mandatory 1000
by meganfernandez
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 11:45 pm
Simplest solution: GET RID OF BYES. The rest of the world does not get BYES in their jobs. I does not matter how highly ranked or lowly ranked you are, if the draw is 5 rounds, EVERYBODY plays five rounds.
But if you make the finals of last week, you get to play the last shift of the first round of the next.
I said it already: it is becoming a bit too prima donna.
It's tough. Eliminating byes and performance byes will result in withdrawals or top players not entering those tournaments. Have to balance those things.
by Owendonovan U.S. Tennis accused of downplaying sexual abuse and trying to silence Pam Shriver
Matthew Futterman
Oct 5, 2023
If you’d like to follow our new tennis coverage, please click here. This article is appearing on feeds of other sports so interested fans know it exists and how to follow it. This will only be the case on rare occasions.
The United States Tennis Association is defending itself against allegations that one of its top lawyers has repeatedly tried to cover up sexual abuse, including warning the 22-time Grand Slam champion and abuse survivor Pam Shriver to show caution when she discussed the issue.
On Monday, Stevie Gould, a former college player, who successfully sued the USTA in 2020 over its failure to protect young players in California from a known sexual predator now serving a 255-year prison sentence, filed a complaint with the U.S. Center for Safesport seeking punishment for Staciellen Mischel, the USTA’s deputy chief legal officer and the top lawyer for the USTA Foundation, for her actions in both his case and another involving a predatory tennis coach.
Safesport is tasked with investigating sexual and physical abuse and harassment claims in sports.
The Safesport complaint mentions an incident in the spring of 2022, when Mischel walked Shriver, a member of the International Tennis Hall of Fame, to her car following a fundraising dinner and told her to “be careful” about her public statements on sexual abuse in tennis.
Shriver has said she interpreted the message of the conversation to be to not “say too much”.
Gould said in his complaint that Mischel used a similar approach nine years ago, before he was abused by his coach. In a 2014 email to the leader of the Northern California section of the USTA, Mischel stated that information about a police investigation of a prominent coach named Normandie Burgos and his suspension from USTA activities should remain confidential. Burgos started abusing Gould the following year, and was convicted of numerous counts of molestation.
In his complaint to Safesport, Gould said Mischel was “morally unfit to continue to serve in her current capacity for a national governing body.” He wrote that she “poses a grave danger to children as long as she continues in that role. Simply stated, children are not safe in tennis as long as this person is able to make decisions about their welfare.”
Chris Widmaier, the chief spokesman for the USTA, said last month the organization would never stifle anyone from telling their story of abuse, and certainly not Shriver. The organization has declined to make Mischel available for an interview.
In a deposition, Mischel testified that since Shriver had previously done fundraising work on behalf of the USTA, she was acting in her capacity as a lawyer for the organization and privately warning Shriver to keep her distance from Robert Allard, a top lawyer for plaintiffs in cases of sexual abuse in sports, whom Mischel described as not “a nice person.”
In a statement Wednesday, Widmaier said police investigating Burgos in 2014 requested “that this sensitive matter be treated confidentially to protect minors, avoid re-victimization, and to not interfere with an on-going investigation by law enforcement. We properly and promptly reported information to law enforcement and cooperated in the investigation. We are confident Ms. Mischel, in all matters, acted properly and in accordance with the law.”
Shriver has become an ally of sexual abuse survivors in tennis since going public with her own story of abuse last year. In a pre-trial deposition in the case between the USTA and Kylie McKenzie, a once-promising junior, Shriver testified that Mischel approached her following a USTA fundraising dinner in California last year, to speak with her about her participation in the case.
When a lawyer representing the USTA in the McKenzie case asked Shriver whether anyone at the USTA had discouraged her from speaking out about sexual abuse, she responded: “Depends how you interpret the conversation from Staciellen. Part of my interpretation was that I needed to be careful. And in that interpretation, meaning don’t say too much.”
Shriver says she was asked to keep quiet.
That interchange between Mischel and Shriver has set off an awkward conflict between the USTA and one of the most decorated players in American tennis history, a prominent television commentator on ESPN and the Tennis Channel, and a figure who has served as a high-profile volunteer for the organization.
After Shriver testified on McKenzie’s behalf, with only limited time for cross-examination, lawyers for the USTA tried to serve her with a subpoena for further questioning in the days following the U.S. Open. Not wanting to submit to further adversarial questioning, Shriver spent most of her time inside and near her home until the deadline for additional testimony passed.
McKenzie, a 24-year-old from Arizona, sued the USTA last year, and was represented by Allard. She claimed the USTA had failed to protect her from a coach who inappropriately touched her after a practice in 2018, when she was 19 and he was 34. That coach had previously touched a USTA employee years before the interaction with McKenzie, though the employee did not report her experience to anyone until McKenzie’s allegations were under investigation.
Gould, a 23-year-old from California who played tennis for the University of San Francisco, reached a lucrative settlement with the USTA in 2021 over its failure to protect him and other players from Burgos, a prominent coach known for training working-class, immigrant children at half the cost of other top coaches.
Burgos had previously been accused of sexually assaulting young players at Tamalpais High School in Marin County, just north of San Francisco. Jurors could not reach a verdict in the 2010 case against him involving players from the school and a mistrial was declared.
The USTA took no action against Burgos, and he set up a private training base in the East Bay city of Richmond, where he trained young players at his condominium complex. The USTA even provided travel grants that allowed his teams to represent Northern California in national tournaments.
Then in 2014, a player told police that Burgos had demanded sex acts, and when the boy refused, Burgos withheld gear or practice time and threatened to derail his college recruitment. After learning of the police investigation, the USTA suspended Burgos from participating in any USTA tournaments, events or programs.
However, in the same email in which she informed Steve Leube, the leader of the USTA’s Northern California section, of the Burgos suspension, Mischel also requested that Leube remain as quiet as possible about the allegations.
“All information regarding this matter should be handled with care and treated as confidential,” Mischel wrote.
Burgos then abused Gould, who did not become aware of the email Mischel sent until years later, an experience he described as “mind-blowing.”
“If my parents had known about this there is no way they would have let me spend countless hours practicing at this man’s private complex,” said Gould, who has been coaching junior players in Marin County in recent months. He said the decision to delve once more into the issue, two years after he settled his case was not an easy one, but ultimately it was something he couldn’t pass up on.
Is the thinking that you have to protect a sexual abuser to protect your business?
by ti-amie
Owendonovan wrote: ↑Fri Oct 06, 2023 12:20 am
U.S. Tennis accused of downplaying sexual abuse and trying to silence Pam Shriver
Matthew Futterman
Oct 5, 2023
If you’d like to follow our new tennis coverage, please click here. This article is appearing on feeds of other sports so interested fans know it exists and how to follow it. This will only be the case on rare occasions.
The United States Tennis Association is defending itself against allegations that one of its top lawyers has repeatedly tried to cover up sexual abuse, including warning the 22-time Grand Slam champion and abuse survivor Pam Shriver to show caution when she discussed the issue.
On Monday, Stevie Gould, a former college player, who successfully sued the USTA in 2020 over its failure to protect young players in California from a known sexual predator now serving a 255-year prison sentence, filed a complaint with the U.S. Center for Safesport seeking punishment for Staciellen Mischel, the USTA’s deputy chief legal officer and the top lawyer for the USTA Foundation, for her actions in both his case and another involving a predatory tennis coach.
Safesport is tasked with investigating sexual and physical abuse and harassment claims in sports.
The Safesport complaint mentions an incident in the spring of 2022, when Mischel walked Shriver, a member of the International Tennis Hall of Fame, to her car following a fundraising dinner and told her to “be careful” about her public statements on sexual abuse in tennis.
Shriver has said she interpreted the message of the conversation to be to not “say too much”.
Gould said in his complaint that Mischel used a similar approach nine years ago, before he was abused by his coach. In a 2014 email to the leader of the Northern California section of the USTA, Mischel stated that information about a police investigation of a prominent coach named Normandie Burgos and his suspension from USTA activities should remain confidential. Burgos started abusing Gould the following year, and was convicted of numerous counts of molestation.
In his complaint to Safesport, Gould said Mischel was “morally unfit to continue to serve in her current capacity for a national governing body.” He wrote that she “poses a grave danger to children as long as she continues in that role. Simply stated, children are not safe in tennis as long as this person is able to make decisions about their welfare.”
Chris Widmaier, the chief spokesman for the USTA, said last month the organization would never stifle anyone from telling their story of abuse, and certainly not Shriver. The organization has declined to make Mischel available for an interview.
In a deposition, Mischel testified that since Shriver had previously done fundraising work on behalf of the USTA, she was acting in her capacity as a lawyer for the organization and privately warning Shriver to keep her distance from Robert Allard, a top lawyer for plaintiffs in cases of sexual abuse in sports, whom Mischel described as not “a nice person.”
In a statement Wednesday, Widmaier said police investigating Burgos in 2014 requested “that this sensitive matter be treated confidentially to protect minors, avoid re-victimization, and to not interfere with an on-going investigation by law enforcement. We properly and promptly reported information to law enforcement and cooperated in the investigation. We are confident Ms. Mischel, in all matters, acted properly and in accordance with the law.”
Shriver has become an ally of sexual abuse survivors in tennis since going public with her own story of abuse last year. In a pre-trial deposition in the case between the USTA and Kylie McKenzie, a once-promising junior, Shriver testified that Mischel approached her following a USTA fundraising dinner in California last year, to speak with her about her participation in the case.
When a lawyer representing the USTA in the McKenzie case asked Shriver whether anyone at the USTA had discouraged her from speaking out about sexual abuse, she responded: “Depends how you interpret the conversation from Staciellen. Part of my interpretation was that I needed to be careful. And in that interpretation, meaning don’t say too much.”
Shriver says she was asked to keep quiet.
That interchange between Mischel and Shriver has set off an awkward conflict between the USTA and one of the most decorated players in American tennis history, a prominent television commentator on ESPN and the Tennis Channel, and a figure who has served as a high-profile volunteer for the organization.
After Shriver testified on McKenzie’s behalf, with only limited time for cross-examination, lawyers for the USTA tried to serve her with a subpoena for further questioning in the days following the U.S. Open. Not wanting to submit to further adversarial questioning, Shriver spent most of her time inside and near her home until the deadline for additional testimony passed.
McKenzie, a 24-year-old from Arizona, sued the USTA last year, and was represented by Allard. She claimed the USTA had failed to protect her from a coach who inappropriately touched her after a practice in 2018, when she was 19 and he was 34. That coach had previously touched a USTA employee years before the interaction with McKenzie, though the employee did not report her experience to anyone until McKenzie’s allegations were under investigation.
Gould, a 23-year-old from California who played tennis for the University of San Francisco, reached a lucrative settlement with the USTA in 2021 over its failure to protect him and other players from Burgos, a prominent coach known for training working-class, immigrant children at half the cost of other top coaches.
Burgos had previously been accused of sexually assaulting young players at Tamalpais High School in Marin County, just north of San Francisco. Jurors could not reach a verdict in the 2010 case against him involving players from the school and a mistrial was declared.
The USTA took no action against Burgos, and he set up a private training base in the East Bay city of Richmond, where he trained young players at his condominium complex. The USTA even provided travel grants that allowed his teams to represent Northern California in national tournaments.
Then in 2014, a player told police that Burgos had demanded sex acts, and when the boy refused, Burgos withheld gear or practice time and threatened to derail his college recruitment. After learning of the police investigation, the USTA suspended Burgos from participating in any USTA tournaments, events or programs.
However, in the same email in which she informed Steve Leube, the leader of the USTA’s Northern California section, of the Burgos suspension, Mischel also requested that Leube remain as quiet as possible about the allegations.
“All information regarding this matter should be handled with care and treated as confidential,” Mischel wrote.
Burgos then abused Gould, who did not become aware of the email Mischel sent until years later, an experience he described as “mind-blowing.”
“If my parents had known about this there is no way they would have let me spend countless hours practicing at this man’s private complex,” said Gould, who has been coaching junior players in Marin County in recent months. He said the decision to delve once more into the issue, two years after he settled his case was not an easy one, but ultimately it was something he couldn’t pass up on.
Is the thinking that you have to protect a sexual abuser to protect your business?
by mmmm8 UGH
by ponchi101 They (and I mean the big THEY) will never learn that trying to silence people does not work.
by ti-amie Jon Wertheim
@jon_wertheim
Story to follow: Majority of top 20 (no Americans) send @WTA demand letter …”tour is becoming incredibly demanding on us, creating physical and mental stresses not sustainable in the long run.” list of asks include wage guarantee
Top 100 = $500k
101 to 175 =$200k
176-250 = $100k
by ponchi101 Just in guaranteed prize money, that would mean the tour would need to dish out $75MM.
But what happens when the top 5 players corner $10MM? Do they relinquish some of their prize money to assist the lower players?
Another point: the tour is too demanding, which is code for playing and traveling too much. But if the top players play less and less, how can the tour generate the necessary revenue?
This is truly a complicated issue.
by ti-amie I think these might be negotiating figures since they're higher than what the ATP guarantees its players.
We'll see.
by Fastbackss Most of the top 100 would eclipse 500K by playing the four slams and the 1000 series tournaments.
I don't think this would be as much out of pocket
by meganfernandez
Fastbackss wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 1:36 pm
Most of the top 100 would eclipse 500K by playing the four slams and the 1000 series tournaments.
I don't think this would be as much out of pocket
Right now, the WTA would pay out around $2 million to the Top 100 players who haven't cleared $500K yet this year. The highest-ranked player who hasn't made $500k is, ironically, #47 Emma Navarro at $496k, and then #51 Aranxta Rus at $434k. Most of the Top 80 clears $500k. Doubles helps if they can win a few rounds at the Slams.
by Fastbackss That's something I hadn't considered. How many players who currently dabble in doubles would bypass it knowing they were guaranteed money. It would figure into their scheduling I have to believe
by meganfernandez
Fastbackss wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 1:17 pm
That's something I hadn't considered. How many players who currently dabble in doubles would bypass it knowing they were guaranteed money. It would figure into their scheduling I have to believe
It would be a huge part of player scheduling, especially toward the end of the year when non-Asian players would weigh traveling to Asia versus staying home and making the same money. But they wouldn't get the points. And this just affects the players ranked lower than 60 or so, entering ITFs and 125s. Everyone else clears the threshold easily and won't need to factor it in.
On the flip side, players 100-150 might work their tails off to squeak into the top 100 by the end of the year to cross the threshold. It's extra incentive on top of making the Top 100 to get direct entry into the AO and that fat R1 Slam prize money.
I imagine there might be guardrails to keep players from abusing the system, skipping tournaments where they might earn the money honestly in order to stay home and take the freebie. Maybe you have to enter X number of events that you're eligible for in order to qualify for the guaranteed income, or you have to choose to enter WTA events rather than ITF when you're ranked high enough to qualify for both (because you stand to earn more at the WTA event, thus giving yourself a better chance to earn $500k).
The big winner in this scenario would be Yafan Wang, the lowest earner - by far - in the top 100 right now. She is #94 and has made $189k, mostly at ITF events and WTA 125s (plus a R1 win at the US Open, after qualifying). Her ranking had fallen to 700 this summer, I'm guessing from an injury, and she went 57/11 to get back into the top 100 in September. Playing ITFs wasn't lucrative, but she got to stay close to home for many months and get some relatively easier wins and build confidence. She had to play a ton of matches, but it worked and she would stand to get a $300k bonus. I could see someone using this strategy of dropping down to play ITFs and WTA 125s in some scenarios when they need confidence and the points, knowing the WTA will supplement their prize money.
Another potential big winner - Emina Bektas (who lives in Indy, by the way - i see you're in Michigan). She came on strong this fall and is up to #104 and $130k. She is 16 points outside the top 100 with one week left to go. That's one round at a 250 event, and there are three of them this week. She is entered in Tunisia and plays Claire Liu in R1 - Liu is ranked #92. That's incredible pressure.
Humor me on this, too - that R1 in Tunisia match is worth $4,000. The title winner only gets $32,000. Claire Liu has already cleared $500k. Emina Bektas stands to make another $370 if she wins that match. Any scenario in which she tells Liu that she will give her $50k to lose? You don't think this will cross someone's mind at some point? It introduces a new incentive opportunity that someone will take advantage of. Maybe not most players, but someone will.
It will really suck for the players who drop out of the Top 100 at the end of the year.
So yes, a guaranteed salary might change a lot for lower-ranked players, frequent doubles players, and those dealing with injuries.
by Fastbackss Glad I am not tasked with going through the scenarios. You've gone through many already.
Ps - I likely will see Ms. Bektas at the Midland tournament in a few weeks
IMG_20231016_120656.jpg
Interesting story but...
I'm sorry - there is a level of degenerateness involved betting $28 on a ten leg parlay. (Unless bankroll is big enough I guess).
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by Fastbackss
IMG_20231016_120656.jpg
Interesting story but...
I'm sorry - there is a level of degenerateness involved betting $28 on a ten leg parlay. (Unless bankroll is big enough I guess).
by meganfernandez
Fastbackss wrote:Glad I am not tasked with going through the scenarios. You've gone through many already.
Ps - I likely will see Ms. Bektas at the Midland tournament in a few weeks
Oh cool. She played at Michigan, I think. I’m just now making the connection between Midland the cool architecture destination and the Midland tennis tournaments. I’ve wanted to check out the Dow sites and the canopy walk. I assume the tournament is inside?
by ti-amieJenson Brooksby given 18 months sanction for whereabouts failures
The International Tennis Integrity Agency (ITIA) can confirm that an independent tribunal has suspended American tennis player Jenson Brooksby for 18 months after it found the player had committed three whereabouts failures in a twelve-month period.
The independent tribunal, established by Sport Resolutions, met on 10 October 2023, hearing from the player and several witnesses including the Doping Control Officer (DCO) who was involved in the disputed second missed test. Brooksby accepted that the first and third missed tests were valid so only the second missed test was in dispute before the tribunal.
Having considered the evidence, the tribunal found that Brooksby’s degree of fault for the missed test was high. The tribunal found that the DCO “took all reasonable steps to locate the player” in the disputed test and the player was negligent by not making themself available for testing during the identified time slot.
Brooksby, who has a career-high ATP singles ranking of 33, elected to take a voluntary provisional suspension shortly after being notified of the charge and as such, the sanction will be backdated to 5 July 2023 and end on 4 January 2025. During this time, the player is prohibited from playing in, coaching at, or attending any tennis event authorised or sanctioned by the tennis members of the ITIA: ATP, ITF, WTA, Australian Open, Roland Garros, Wimbledon and US Open.
ITIA CEO Karen Moorhouse commented, “The whereabouts programme is a vital tool in maintaining a clean sport. No-one wants players to fall foul of the rules in this way. We offer regular support and education to all players who are part of the whereabouts programme and make ourselves available to answer any questions. We urge all players to take the necessary steps to ensure that they are meticulous with their whereabouts filings.”
Three Whereabouts Failures – which can include missed tests or filing failures – within a rolling 12-month period can result in an Anti-Doping Rule Violation under article 2.4 of the TADP, which can carry a maximum sanction of a two-year suspension. In Brooksby’s case, three missed tests were registered within a 12-month period from April 2022.
The player has 21 days to appeal the decision to the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) and the full decision will be published on the ITIA website in due course.
The ITIA is an independent body established by its tennis members to promote, encourage, enhance and safeguard the integrity of professional tennis worldwide.
by ti-amie For reference Mikael Ymer's suspension was reduced to 18 months.
by ti-amie ATP Tour @atptour
A message from Pete
by ponchi101 Still my favorite player of all times, especially because, yes, he was always private and quiet.
Wish her (and her family) the best. Tough think to go through, at such young age.
by ptmcmahon Likewise...although she'll always be Veronica Vaughn to me!
by ti-amie
Can someone explain to me why he would opt to go to court/trial on this?
by ti-amieWTA facing rebellion from numerous top players over pay and conditions on women’s tour
Aryna Sabalenka had had enough.
After nearly a month of unsatisfying contact with leaders of the WTA Tour, the world No 1 finally cut loose Sunday night in Cancun, Mexico, following her opening-night victory over Maria Sakkari, complaining about her safety on a tennis court that she had barely had time to practice on before her match.
Sabalenka (pictured above) said she felt “disrespected by the WTA” following weeks of tense and angry communications between the top female tennis players in the world and the leaders of their sport. The confrontations have been brewing for months but began to boil over in text messages and a series of player meetings at the China Open during the first days of October, people with knowledge of the meetings said Monday.
The discussions in China culminated with a three-page, single-spaced letter sent on October 5 and signed by Sabalenka and 20 other leading players, including Elena Rybakina and Marketa Vondrousova, the last two Wimbledon champions, and Ons Jabeur, a three-time Grand Slam finalist.
The players requested immediate consideration of their needs for higher pay, a more flexible schedule that is more physically and mentally sustainable, expanded childcare and official representation on the WTA Players Council from their own, independent player organization, the nascent Professional Tennis Players Association (PTPA), which Novak Djokovic co-founded in 2020.
The letter, which The Athletic has seen, ended with a request for “a written, substantive response to this letter and each requested improvement with a clear commitment by the WTA to address the issues stated above by Friday, October 13th.”
The players are still waiting for that written response.
Paula Wolecka, a spokesperson for Iga Swiatek, the world No 2, and four-time Grand Slam champion, confirmed Monday that Swiatek had sent her own letter to the WTA leadership, and was part of a “united front here in wishing for a real change.”
A spokesman for the WTA said “players have always been equal decision-makers to ensure a strong direction for women’s tennis,” noting recent efforts that will help increase player compensation by $400million ($329m) over the next 10 years. “We’re proud of these efforts and look forward to continuing to have these very important conversations with players and tournaments to keep building a strong future for women’s tennis.”
Instead of the formal response they requested, players received offers for two meetings with Steve Simon, chief executive of the WTA Tour, and other leaders of the organization on October 16, and then last Thursday in Cancun.
In addition, those who are participating in the elite WTA Tour Finals received a series of talking points which players could consider stating should they face questions on those topics. These included the WTA’s position on those meetings with WTA leadership, as well as the war in Israel and Gaza, and the possibility that the WTA Tour Finals or other tournaments might take place in Saudi Arabia next year.
On Saudi Arabia, where players who are gay may feel uncomfortable in a country which criminalizes homosexuality, the WTA advised players to consider saying: “I’m happy to play wherever the WTA Finals is hosted, it’s a prestigious event.”
On the meetings with WTA leaders, players were advised to consider expressing pride in the WTA’s efforts to increase player compensation and stating that they, too, look forward to continued conversations to “keep building a strong future for women’s tennis.”
According to people with knowledge of the meetings between the players and WTA leadership — who spoke on the condition of anonymity to protect their positions — players left unsatisfied with the WTA’s response to their requests. Two top players were so frustrated they left last Thursday’s meeting before its conclusion.
Part of that involved the WTA’s refusal to allow a representative of the PTPA to participate in either meeting. Ahmad Nassar, the executive director of the PTPA, expressed that sentiment in a letter he sent to Simon one week ago, which The Athletic has also seen.
In that letter, Nassar noted Simon had told him the WTA leaders wanted to speak directly with its athletes, without their agents, coaches or other outside influences.
“The reality is that the tour and tournaments are, in fact, outside influences having interests opposed to the players,” wrote Nassar, a former top executive with the National Football League Players Association. “The PTPA represents the playing group, and them alone.” Nassar also reiterated the players’ requests for a written response to their initial letter, noting that the failure to respond “reinforces the perceived lack of willingness to meaningfully engage and innovate.”
The latest requests in the October 5 letter included guaranteed pay of $500,000 for players in the top 100, $200,000 for players ranked 101-175, and $100,000 for players ranked 175-250. The men’s tour, the ATP, recently announced a plan to provide a similar guaranteed pay scale.
Also, the players want to receive compensation if they are injured and cannot play or if they take a break from the tour to have a child. The players also requested the right to audit the financial records of their tournaments, which they do not currently have.
The heightened tension of the past month follows a series of incidents in which many players have emerged frustrated with how tennis officials have treated women.
In Madrid in May, the women’s doubles finalists — Coco Gauff, Jessica Pegula, Victoria Azarenka and Beatriz Haddad Maia — were not allowed to address the crowd during the awards ceremony. The move came after Azarenka and other women criticized tournament officials for giving women’s matches unfavorable start times, and even providing a far smaller birthday cake to Sabalenka than Carlos Alcaraz.
Later that month, Rybakina had to wait until nearly midnight to play the Italian Open singles final, following a rain-filled day during which organizers decided not to move the women’s match to the next day and pair it with the men’s final.
In June, the WTA announced an agreement with tournament directors that will guarantee pay equity for men and women, but not until 2027 for the largest tournaments, and 2033 for smaller ones. Several top players said they did not understand why they had to wait, especially for tournaments that include women doing the same “work” as men but for less prize money.
WTA officials said tournament organizers needed time for a series of new business initiatives to produce enough revenue to support the higher prize money.
Through the summer, players expressed frustration over not knowing the location of the WTA Tour Finals for the third consecutive year, before the WTA settled for a one-year deal in Cancun, which rushed to construct a 4,000-seat temporary stadium.
Late last week, players still had not had a chance to practice in the stadium in Cancun, which has caused many of the players to complain about conditions at what is supposed to be the WTA’s signature event.
Anton Dubrov, Sabalenka’s coach, said Monday the court feels as though there are holes beneath the surface in some spots. The inconsistent surface has left some players with little idea of how the ball will bounce and unable to move freely or without fear of injury. The court is also a short walk from both the sea and a bay, making it prone to high winds in the final weeks of hurricane season in the Caribbean.
“It should be a celebration of the end of the year, but right now you feel like you have no control anywhere,” Dubrov said of the court.
In a statement Monday, the WTA said it had worked hard to complete the stadium “on an expedited timeline amid weather challenges to ensure the stadium and court meet our strict performance standards.”
Wolecka, Swiatek’s spokesperson, said Monday that Swiatek had found the stadium conditions “far from ideal” and much faster than on the practice courts.
“The situation is challenging,” Wolecka said. “She’s willing to discuss it with the WTA, but at the moment she needs to be focused on her performance and her job to make the best of these demanding circumstances.”
Thanks to the fan who posted the article on another fansite.
by Oploskoffie
ti-amie wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2023 8:01 pm
Can someone explain to me why he would opt to go to court/trial on this?
From The Guardian: In German law, a penalty order is utilised by a public prosecutor’s office when it does not consider a trial to be necessary, such as when the case is relatively simple and there is compelling evidence in favour of the accusation. The defendant has a right to contest the penalty order, leading to a public trial.
Now, his legal team have called the fine "scandalous" and are very, very confident they'll get him aquitted via the only option now available, the trial.
Personally, I can't shake the feeling that he is, indeed, guilty as charged. The fact that "insufficient" evidence was not found in earlier the Sharypova case did not and does not prove much more than just that to me. Abuse, psychological and physical, can be extremely hard to prove if it's happening behind closed doors with no witnesses and/or physical evidence of any kind. "Smarter" abusers know how to twist and distort stories, leave no marks, choose their moments, those kinds of things; we had one or two in my family and it took (way too) many years for them to be found out.
Even if Zverev's legal team succeeds, don't be surprised if some similar story surfaces in the future, be it domestic violence or altercations of another kind elsewhere.
by Owendonovan I'd say Madrid is more likely to go. There's just too much tennis in Florida to have it's only tournament taken away.
by skatingfan
Owendonovan wrote: ↑Fri Nov 03, 2023 12:11 am
I'd say Madrid is more likely to go. There's just too much tennis in Florida to have it's only tournament taken away.
I don't think they want to move the tournament to Saudi Arabia, they just want to buy the tournament.
by Owendonovan Sportswash in as many countries as possible.
by skatingfan
Owendonovan wrote: ↑Fri Nov 03, 2023 3:44 am
Sportswash in as many countries as possible.
Yes, and also the Saudi Royal Family recognizes that the money they make from oil is not going to be around forever, and they need to find new sources of revenue. Sports is also a very good place to launder money which will buffer them against any future sanctions regimes that might happen in the future.
Owendonovan wrote: ↑Fri Nov 03, 2023 3:44 am
Sportswash in as many countries as possible.
Yes, and also the Saudi Royal Family recognizes that the money they make from oil is not going to be around forever, and they need to find new sources of revenue. Sports is also a very good place to launder money which will buffer them against any future sanctions regimes that might happen in the future.
The money they make from oil will certainly last their lifetime. And as long as the US is a partner, no sanctions will take place.
Certainly not for human rights abuses.
by skatingfan
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 03, 2023 12:58 pm
The money they make from oil will certainly last their lifetime. And as long as the US is a partner, no sanctions will take place.
Certainly not for human rights abuses.
Yes, the money is just a representation of power, and relevance. If in the next few decades oil dependence ends (big if) there won't be any need for the US to protect Saudi Arabia.
by ti-amie A fan on another site was asking if Simon is trying to devalue the worth of the WTA so the Saudi's can buy it cheap and he can "earn" a nice commission.
by ti-amie
Translation
by ti-amie
Interesting. This was the post by Wertheim on Zverev. It can still be found on Xitter.
Jon Wertheim
@jon_wertheim
Zverev gets to keep playing/earning$. But at what price?...At best,
@atptour looks jay-vee. In the face multiple DV allegations-and one adjudication-you still let a guy compete?...Players and tournaments are put in a bad spot...There are close calls. This ain't one. Bad look all around....
Michael Rod Taylor
@nyrealestateman
·
Nov 9
Replying to @jon_wertheim and @josh_levin
So let’s keep the allegations front & center since no charges were filed. How should Zverev respond in the court of public opinion? Should tennis journalists ask him about it at every presser? Should he be chased out of the sport?
by ti-amieWimbledon expansion plans rejected by Wandsworth council
Planning committee votes unanimously against All England Club’s proposals to triple size on to listed park
The All England Lawn Tennis Club as it now stands. The club’s proposals would have almost tripled its grounds from 17 to 46 hectares. Photograph: Thomas Lovelock/AP
Rupert Neate Wealth correspondent
@RupertNeate
Tue 21 Nov 2023 23.03 GMT
A London council has rejected plans to build a new 8,000-seat stadium and 38 further tennis courts on a Grade II*-listed park in Wimbledon.
Wandsworth council’s planning committee on Tuesday night voted unanimously to reject the All England Lawn Tennis Club’s plans to almost triple the size of the tennis championship grounds from 17 hectares (42 acres) to 46 hectares.
The councillors agreed with Wandsworth’s planning officers’ recommendation that the proposal be refused as it would “cause substantial harm to the openness of metropolitan open land”.
Applause broke out in the public gallery when councillors voted 7-0 to reject the All England Club’s plans after more than two and a half hours of debate. Campaigners have described the club’s proposals – which include a nine-storey stadium, more than 9km [5.5 miles] of roads, 10 maintenance hubs and 38 new grass courts on Wimbledon Park – as creating an “industrial tennis complex”.
Guy Humphries, a Conservative councillor for the Southfields ward, said he could not recall any other “planning application that has upset so many people for so many reasons”.
Humphries said the All England Club “fails desperately” in its claim that there are “very special circumstances” that should allow it to build on Wimbledon Park, which is designated as metropolitan open land and was first designed by Capability Brown in the 18th century.
The All England Club had argued that it desperately needs to expand and increase its facilities to ensure that the Wimbledon grand slam “remains the world’s premier tennis tournament”.
Ravi Govindia, a councillor for East Putney and former leader of Wandsworth council, said the All England prides itself on the serenity of its grounds but the plans “are going away from tennis in English country garden”. “As much as I would like to see this investment in the area this is not the way to do it,” he added.
The 155-year-old All England Club succeeded last month in winning the approval of the planning committee of the neighbouring authority, Merton, but a small triangle of the park lies within Wandsworth’s boundaries. The All England requires the permission of both councils and the mayor of London (and possibly Michael Gove, the secretary of state for levelling up, housing and communities) in order to go ahead with the project.
Sally Bolton, chief executive of the All England Club, said: “Naturally, we are disappointed by the London Borough of Wandsworth’s decision. Our proposals will deliver one of the greatest sporting transformations for London since 2012, alongside substantial benefits for the local community.
“We firmly believe the AELTC Wimbledon Park Project offers significant social, economic and environmental improvements, including turning 23 acres of previously private land into a new public park, alongside hundreds of jobs and tens of millions of pounds in economic benefits for our neighbours in Wandsworth, Merton and across London.
“Given the split council decision, with the London Borough of Merton resolving to approve our application last month, our planning application will now be referred to the mayor of London’s office for consideration.”
by ti-amieAccused by an ex. Former tennis player David Nalbandian, reported for alleged harassment and harassment
The woman - a young model from Rosario - found a camera installed in a vent in the apartment they shared when they were dating, between February and September of this year; Justice began an investigation based on an audio message from him
November 22, 2023
16:01
Gabriela Origlia
FOR THE NATION
David Nalbandian acknowledged installing the camera, but said he never saw anything.
Fabian Marelli - LA NACION
CÓRDOBA.- Former Córdoba tennis player David Nalbandian was reported for alleged harassment and harassment. It was done by his ex-partner, who stated that he placed a camera in the windlight of an apartment they shared when they were still together, so that he could control her and see what she was doing.The case, due to lack of evidence, was filed in the first and second instance.
Araceli Torrado is a model from Rosario with whom Nalbandian had a relationship for several months. He acknowledged, in an audio message, having installed the camera, but claimed that he had “never” seen anything because the device did not work.
The relationship between the two became public last February, when they were seen at the theater in the City of Buenos Aires; They finished in June.
The couple shared an apartment in Palermo, where she continued to live for a while longer after the separation. It was there that one day she discovered, while with her brother, a security camera installed behind a central ventilation outlet.
According to the complaint, Torrado's brother removed the cover with a screwdriver and discovered the security camera connected with several cables to be monitored live. He then presented the complaint to the Court, which, at first, filed it due to lack of evidence.
With audios and messages from Nalbandian admitting what happened, Torrado appealed the decision. The young woman's lawyer, Martín Olari Ugrotte , stated that, in this way, the investigation was reopened.
Nalbandian retired from professional tennis a decade ago, in October 2013, when he was 31 years old. He became number 3 in the world ranking and won eleven titles on the ATP circuit. He was a three-time finalist in the Davis Cup with the national team. Although he always liked cars, it was not until 2014 that he debuted as a driver in the Argentine Rally. He was married for 22 years until he separated last year. He has two children.
Jon Wertheim @jon_wertheim
FWIW, hearing more chatter about the Slams joining to acquire 10 biggest events, forming a super tour (with Saudi Arabia getting 10th event)…leaving @atp and @WTA to run 500s and year-end finals…lot of hurdles to clear but this would be the proverbial game-changer…stay tuned
So goodbye to 250's and WTA 1000's?
I read this as implying that the ATP M1000's will become joint ATP/WTA events since no mention is made of them in this rumor.
They're trying to sneak KSA event in the back door.
by meganfernandez
ti-amie wrote:
Jon Wertheim @jon_wertheim
FWIW, hearing more chatter about the Slams joining to acquire 10 biggest events, forming a super tour (with Saudi Arabia getting 10th event)…leaving @atp and @WTA to run 500s and year-end finals…lot of hurdles to clear but this would be the proverbial game-changer…stay tuned
So goodbye to 250's and WTA 1000's?
I read this as implying that the ATP M1000's will become joint ATP/WTA events since no mention is made of them in this rumor.
They're trying to sneak KSA event in the back door.
Yes that’s what I assume. I HOPE they would all become dual-gender events.
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by ti-amie
by ti-amieATP chairman Andrea Gaudenzi: We're all on the same side – that's team tennis
Gaudenzi speaks to The National about plans to expand in Saudi Arabia, his 'OneVision' strategy, and the threat of a possible civil war in tennis
Reem Abulleil
Dec 07, 2023
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Professional tennis’ first foray into Saudi Arabia saw Hamad Medjedovic clinch the Next Gen ATP Finals title in front of a capacity crowd in Jeddah.
Andrea Gaudenzi, the chairman of the ATP, attended the final day of action at King Abdullah Sports City's indoor arena and says the tour’s first experience in the Kingdom was generally positive, despite the teething issues that are expected with any first-year event.
“I think I've heard very, very good feedback, both from the players and from my team, in terms of execution, the infrastructure here is impressive. The amount of work, investment and passion into the details has been amazing. I also looked at it on TV and it looked very nice. So yeah, I’m very, very, very pleased,” Gaudenzi told The National on the sidelines of the tournament now in its sixth edition following a five-year stint in Milan.
The Next Gen ATP Finals features eight of the world’s best players aged 21 and under. It was that criteria that attracted the Saudi Tennis Federation to host the event as a way to engage with the Kingdom’s predominantly young population.
But as has been the trend with other sports, Saudi Arabia is keen to expand its involvement in tennis by staging bigger events across both the men’s and women’s tours.
“We are exploring a number of different opportunities" with Saudi Arabia, said Gaudenzi.
“And we are here obviously, so we want to work with Saudi. I think we had very good relations the last couple of years, very interesting discussions.
“They have expressed the willingness and the desire to do more in sport and in tennis. I think the biggest challenge on our side is the calendar. In all honesty, it's very tight, it's very jammed.
“But the desire for us to actually be here and be in the region, because we value the Middle East a lot, is there.
“I think we're going to have to work it out together in phases or we're looking at all opportunities. We don't have the solutions at the moment, but we're definitely going to keep discussing with all the parties.”
An announcement regarding the WTA Finals signing a multi-year deal with Saudi Arabia is said to be in the works, but Gaudenzi hopes the Next Gen ATP Finals will become a combined event that unites the best young players on the men’s and women’s tours in Jeddah – an idea that was floated for this year’s edition but never materialised.
“We did already try to push it forward. I definitely would like the idea to have Next Gen being combined and to see the top eight [21-and-under] men and women together, I really liked that concept a lot. And hopefully it can come to reality ... Obviously, this is beyond my control,” added Gaudenzi.
Threat of a spin-off tour?
The 50-year-old Italian was re-elected for a second term earlier this year that will see him serve as ATP chairman through 2026. A former top-20 player, Gaudenzi’s chairmanship has centred around his ‘OneVision’ strategy, which is based on three core principles: driving unity, enhancing the fan experience, and leveraging scalable growth opportunities in media, data, content and technology.
Tennis’ fragmented structure is one of the main reasons the sport has been unable to maximise its financial potential with its seven stakeholders – ATP, WTA, ITF, and the four Grand Slams – rarely aligned.
As Gaudenzi’s OneVision strategy enters its second phase, which is meant to foster unity among the various stakeholders and among players and tournaments, a recent report in The Athletic suggested that the four Grand Slams are plotting to form a partnership between themselves and the nine ATP Masters 1000 events to create "a premium tour that resembles a tennis version of Formula One”.
According to the report, a 10th Masters tournament would be added, to be staged in Saudi Arabia.
Is there a real danger that the tour’s biggest events, the Masters 1000s, would leave the ATP’s umbrella and join forces with the Grand Slams?
“No, in my opinion, absolutely not,” replied Gaudenzi.
“I think that generally there is a lot of noise in that regard. I think what I've been extremely vocal about the last four years with OneVision is that we need to figure out a way to work together, right?
“Because ultimately, whatever was written in that article, it's definitely the concept of focusing on a premium product, which will mean the Slams and the Masters and the premium product, all together combined, is a very powerful proposition for the consumers. That I agree with 100 per cent. That's what we are trying to do with OneVision.
“Obviously, I don't know, different people probably come up with different ideas on how to get there.”
‘Having civil war doesn’t help’
Gaudenzi believes tennis should not compete with itself and instead unite to compete with other sports and entertainment organisations.
He feels division, like the one suggested in The Athletic report “will only destroy value, not create value.
“And there is also another problem: in some cases it’s difficult to come back. Because then you hinder the relationship and it becomes even more difficult.
“Ultimately, I think you can get there by building on top of the value that we have today rather than destroying and creating disruption, which I think ultimately, it's always more expensive, it’s time and energy and money-consuming, it’s not necessary.”
Gaudenzi doesn’t believe the Grand Slams have any interest in purchasing other tournaments or running their own tour and says they actually prefer to “simplify the narrative”.
“I'm 100 per cent pro unity and pro finding solutions through conversations in a room. I strongly believe we can agree a lot more than we actually believe, when you're together,” said Gaudenzi.
“Because ultimately we are aligned. We are all pushing for tennis to be stronger and growing, vis-à-vis the other sports and vis-à-vis the other entertainment properties. So we're on the same side, we're on the same team – that's team tennis. Having civil war doesn't help.”
Gaudenzi has also warned that a spin-off tour could further confuse fans. “So it would be a massive mistake to go down that direction,” he added.
Transparency, profit-sharing and guaranteed base earnings
While many challenges lie ahead, there are significant accomplishments that have been achieved during Gaudenzi’s tenure through his strategic plan.
The ATP is a membership organisation of tournaments and players but historically players had no access to the financials of the tournaments they were participating in. But in 2022, a game-changing 50-50 profit-sharing initiative was introduced which gave players full transparency on the economics of tournaments, via auditors, and gave them access to half of the profits made by these events, based on a specific formula.
The first profit-sharing payout for the 2022 season – announced last month – resulted in an additional $12.2 million Bonus Pool distribution to players, which increased the total player compensation this year by a record $50 million.
Gaudenzi says the profit-sharing initiative has fostered trust between players and tournaments and has changed the dynamic among their representatives in board meetings.
“It’s like we are on the same boat and it's a lot easier to make decisions and there is a feeling of, we're a team rather than before, you could see players and tournaments sitting on the opposite side of the table, it was almost like a tennis game,” he explained. “You know, I serve faster, I have to return faster but now it's a team. And that is the mindset that I'm trying to change also at the higher level with WTA and the Grand Slams.
“I think we are in a very, very good place with WTA. We are discussing WTA Ventures which is a merger of all the commercial entities – ATP Media, TDI [Tennis Data Innovations] and WTA Ventures.
“And I'm also not shy in saying that the progress with Grand Slams in the last few years has been slower than I would have wished. But I'm still optimistic.”
The ATP also announced an unprecedented Baseline programme which will guarantee base earnings for players ranked in the top 250, provide injury protection compensation, and offer newcomer investment funding for players who have broken into the top 125 for the first time.
Since player earnings have always been directly related to performance, the Baseline programme offers a degree of financial security to the players, irrespective of their results.
Currently, the ATP is the sole contributor to the baseline programme but Gaudenzi believes the benefit can be much greater if the Grand Slams contributed as well.
“I think we can make player welfare a lot better if the wider group would also contribute. But giving that feeling to them of security I think is very, very important for their career and their mental health,” he said.
Undervalued media rights
As Gaudenzi puts it, phase one of OneVision strategy was about “getting our house in order” and phase two is about achieving goals that involve collaborating with other stakeholders.
A key challenge has been how undervalued tennis’ media rights have been. While broadcast deals are usually one of the biggest sources of revenue in other sports, that is not the case in tennis, once again due to its fragmented structure.
“It's probably the biggest untapped opportunity in our sport. And the solution to that is one word: aggregation,” said Gaudenzi.
“If we were able to go to market with the Grand Slams, ATP, WTA package, premium product, to market, especially today, where big global streamers, the Apples, the Netflix, or the Amazon, are coming into sport, it will be a very, very, very compelling package.
“Two-hundred days of premium product, lots of volume; if you compare that to Formula One which is two, three hours per race, 23 races per year ... I think we can be a very, very compelling proposition.
“The problem is that we all go to market separately, market by market. That's very inefficient and it also creates pain points for the fans.
“You need three, four, five subscriptions per market to actually follow tennis [on TV]. We make it difficult for fans to follow the story rather than say, ‘hey, free aperitivo, come and have dinner in our restaurant. Here is a plate of pasta’.
“So aggregation basically means again a deal with a Grand Slams and the WTA. It's OneVision. One of the goals of OneVision is aggregating the commercial rights.”
Does he see it happening though?
“Is it moving as fast as I wish? No. And that's going to be the number one priority my next three years. So I don't know, I'm an optimist. Will it be easy? No. Is it impossible? No. It's doable, but we'll see!”
by ti-amie I like Reem and have followed her for years before I began limiting my visits to Xitter. She's a great reporter.
I never thought about what it would mean if the Slams and M1000's became it's own tour. Wouldn't that leave KSA out of the picture? I wish she had explored that angle more.
by ponchi101 A tenth masters. In S. Arabia.
If I remember well, how about the incessant claim that the calendar is too long?
by Owendonovan I would love to be a very out, flamboyant, top ranked tennis player queening out on court at my win and during the award ceremony at a Saudi Arabian masters 1000.
by ti-amie I don't want to denigrate Reem. She's covered tennis for years and she's based in Cairo. That said any other reporter would've brought up the issues surrounding KSA and that is the major problem I have with the interview.
by ti-amie
by texasniteowl Wasn't sure whether to put this here or in Injury and Illness, but since she's retired I went with here...
reports are that Chris Evert's cancer has recurred
"While this is a diagnosis I never wanted to hear, I once again feel fortunate that it was caught early," she said in the statement. "Based on a PET CT scan, I underwent another robotic surgery this past week. Doctors found cancer cells in the same pelvic region. All cells were removed, and I have begun another round of chemotherapy."
by ponchi101 Not going to "like" that post, but thanks for that, Ti. Hope Chris will make it through, again.
by meganfernandez
texasniteowl wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 7:04 am
Wasn't sure whether to put this here or in Injury and Illness, but since she's retired I went with here...
reports are that Chris Evert's cancer has recurred
"While this is a diagnosis I never wanted to hear, I once again feel fortunate that it was caught early," she said in the statement. "Based on a PET CT scan, I underwent another robotic surgery this past week. Doctors found cancer cells in the same pelvic region. All cells were removed, and I have begun another round of chemotherapy."
So sad. But she's a fighter and will have the best care.
by meganfernandez The outfit is a little Hunger Games
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by ti-amie
by Fastbackss As much as I wanted to hate the interview - overall it wasn't terrible. Yes, I couldn't help but think he had some scripted (like normal) but there were some insights
by meganfernandez
Fastbackss wrote:As much as I wanted to hate the interview - overall it wasn't terrible. Yes, I couldn't help but think he had some scripted (like normal) but there were some insights
It was just okay to me. I wanted a lot more … Wertheim spent three days in Belgrade and that’s what he got? I didn’t see the part where he says he isn’t friends with Rafa and Roger. Was that just used to promote the show and cut from the actual show?
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by Fastbackss I can see that but still wasn't as much of a stroke job as I anticipated
by ti-amie
by ti-amie
by ti-amie
by ti-amieSimona Halep fears loss of doping appeal will end her career
ESPN News Services
Dec 15, 2023, 03:44 PM ET
PARIS -- Two-time Grand Slam champion Simona Halep fears a loss in the appeal of her four-year doping suspension could lead to the end of her playing career.
A three-day hearing with the Court of Arbitration for Sport is scheduled for Feb. 7-9 in her appeal against the International Tennis Integrity Agency, which ruled that Halep "committed intentional anti-doping rule violations."
"Four years is going to be a lot for my age," Halep, a 32-year-old from Romania who has been No. 1 in the WTA rankings, said in an interview with euronews posted online Friday.
"It's catastrophic if it's going to be four years," she said. "And I don't know how I will handle it. Probably it's going to be [the] end of [my] career, yes."
Halep tested positive for the drug Roxadustat at the 2022 US Open and also was cited for irregularities in her biological passport. Roxadustat stimulates the body to produce more of the natural hormone erythropoietin, or EPO, which has long been a doping product favored by cyclists and distance runners.
Halep said in Friday's interview that she is no longer working with coach Patrick Mouratoglou's academy and hasn't spoken with him in a "few months."
In a video Mouratoglou posted on Instagram in November, he took blame for providing a tainted substance to Halep.
"We brought her collagen from a company. This collagen happened to be contaminated," Mouratoglou said. "There was no way to know it. But I feel responsible for what happened because it's my team -- so me, basically -- who brought her this collagen."
Halep won the French Open in 2018 by beating Sloane Stephens in the final, and Wimbledon in 2019 by defeating Serena Williams in the title match.
Speaking with euronews in Paris. Halep said she hopes she wins her appeal and will be eligible to compete in next year's Summer Olympics in that city.
"I know I didn't do anything wrong and I know I'm clean," Halep said.
Information from the Associated Press was used in this report.
As I would have suspected. I feel she's aware she's set for life, which is a nice position to be in at a very uninherited young age. Makes moral decisions much easier to dig your hells in on.
by meganfernandez Was this posted somewhere? Three days ago, Mari Osaka accused her dad of severe abuse on Instagram and then deleted her account. She hasn't made a denial, which you'd think she would do if her account had been hacked and she didn't post it.
Sounds like she and her mom never called the police on him because they were afraid the police might kill him. What a hell of a choice for a kid to have to make. Anyway, I'm reading Ben's Osaka biography and it sounds plausible based on some of his reporting. The guy sounds pretty bad. He is never around Naomi's matches, right?
This was the post, per Women's Tennis Blog:
I want you to know how disappointed and disgusted I am in you, as a father and human being in general. You have failed in every way imaginable. You have abused me since I was young and continue to harass my mother. You continue to emotionally abuse her and trespass into our home when you have your own. I’m making this public knowledge because you are a coward who hides behind his physical ability to beat me down and our refusal to call to cops on you. This is it, I’m really done with you and the next time I see your face I am calling the police. Consider this a threat. The way you have hurt me and our family honestly I won’t regret it if they kill you so yea come back to the house and threaten to beat me up again. I will fight back and I will fight for both of us. I will kill you unless you kill me first by bringing a gun like the coward you are. So go ahead let’s see what type of man you really are even though I’ve already known since birth I’m the daughter to the devil. God help me when he comes again.
Fastbackss wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2024 10:24 pm
Thanks Megan, I can't view Ti-Amie's post, so that helped
Did Ti-Amie post about this earlier and I'm not finding it? Hate to double-post.
Oops. Ti's post from Reddit wasn't showing; I presumed you were in response to it.
I just looked and it's there now. It's the one about iga and sponsorship deals
by mmmm8 oof, that's rough. Puts some things into perspective and I hope it gets an investigation.
by Suliso Sadly this is fairly common. In particular with female players coming from modest background.
by mmmm8
Suliso wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2024 5:21 pm
Sadly this is fairly common. In particular with female players coming from modest background.
I think it's quite common with boys too, unfortunately (Agassi, Tomic are two top of mind examples).
by ponchi101 I am not sure. Just from the top of my head, in the WTA:
Capriati, Graf (at a different and lower level), Pierce, Lucic, Dokic, Sharapova (Juri's behavior was appalling at times), Arantxa (different type of abuse, for sure).
I am missing a few, I know.
by Suliso It does happen with boys too, but significantly less at least by the time they're on the tour already. The unifying theme is parents (fathers mostly) trying to live via their kids.
I wish cases like Rodger's would be more standard. Parents saw that the kid is athletic, sent him to tennis club (football too), he turned out to be very good and highly competitive and that's it. I've never read anywhere of them plotting to become rich via him.
by mmmm8
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 4:20 pm
I am not sure. Just from the top of my head, in the WTA:
Capriati, Graf (at a different and lower level), Pierce, Lucic, Dokic, Sharapova (Juri's behavior was appalling at times), Arantxa (different type of abuse, for sure).
I am missing a few, I know.
I'm not sure I would put Yuri Sharapov in this category. He was obnoxious against some others and probably tried to own her coaching too much, but I think it's a big stretch to say he was abusive towards Maria (beyond "accepted" levels of parental mistakes). I think he's more leaning towards the Srdjan Djokovic direction of not shutting your mouth when you should than abuse.
Aravane Rezai is another one that comes to mind. I also still think there's a lot left unsaid about Richard Williams.
I think the abuse against boys often gets underreported/unnoticed.
by Suliso
mmmm8 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 5:19 pm
I think the abuse against boys often gets underreported/unnoticed.
You're probably right about this. Also men are older when they start earning serious money. That must have some effect too.
by ti-amie
Sigh
by ponchi101 Been a fan of him for a long time.
But this is, to me, one of the cardinal sins. It is not too hard to see that anything related to Saudi Arabia is just dipping your hands into blood money.
Sorry, Rafa. You're a hoe.
by ti-amieGermany's top tennis player to go on trial for abuse in May
Jonathan Crane
14 hours ago
The German tennis player Alexander Zverev is contesting allegations he physically abused ex-girlfriend, Brenda Patea. He is contesting a penalty order and fine from October last year.
Alexander Zverev, Germany's No. 1 tennis player, will go on trial for physical abuse in May, the Berlin criminal court has confirmed to DW.
Zverev, the Olympic champion in Tokyo in 2021, is accused of "physically abusing a woman and damaging her health during an argument." The woman, named by Zverev's lawyers, is his ex-girlfriend, Brenda Patea. The 26-year-old Zverev "rejects" the allegations.
In a statement to DW, Lisa Jani, a spokesperson for the court, wrote: "The main hearing in the case will begin in May 2024. We will announce the details in due course."
In October last year, Zverev was given a penalty order by the court and fined €450,000 ($492,700). For lesser crimes in Germany, a penalty order can be issued when a judge believes the case is straightforward and doesn't warrant a trial. The accused can contest the order, maintaining the presumption of innocence, which is why Zverev will now face a public hearing.
Jani said that Zverev wouldn't necessarily have to appear in person, but that he could be ordered to testify by the judge. The charge carries a maximum sentence of five years in jail, although a prison term for Zverev would be "highly unlikely" given the nature of the penalty order.
Refuting the penalty order at the time, Zverev's lawyers, Schertz Bergmann, called the proceedings "scandalous," adding that "there can be no question of a fair trial." The law firm questioned the forensic evidence used by the court.
Schertz Bergmann has also sought to quash media reports of the case and its details. In December, German newspaper Süddeutsche Zeitung was forced to take down an article featuring an interview with Patea, because the article went beyond "the limits of permissible suspicious reporting," according to a statement from the law firm.
Trial could coincide with French Open
Zverev himself has occasionally spoken out against the allegations, giving reporters short shrift for asking about them. At a press conference in November, he described the penalty order as "complete (expletive)."
"Anybody that has semi-standard IQ levels knows what this is all about," Zverev said.
The ATP Tour, which runs men's tennis, had previously investigated Zverev over claims he assaulted another ex-girlfriend, Olya Sharypova. The ATP closed that investigation in January last year, citing "insufficient evidence."
In the absence of any domestic abuse policy at the ATP, Zverev has been allowed to continue competing despite the latest allegations. He is currently in Melbourne for the Australian Open, the year's first Grand Slam tournament, and is set to play his first-round match against a fellow German, Dominik Koepfer, on Tuesday.
It is unclear how the trial will impact his tennis schedule. The French Open, the year's second Grand Slam, starts on May 26.
Zverev's lawyers told DW they wouldn't be adding to their statement released in October.
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 15, 2024 10:27 pm
Been a fan of him for a long time.
But this is, to me, one of the cardinal sins. It is not too hard to see that anything related to Saudi Arabia is just dipping your hands into blood money.
Sorry, Rafa. You're a hoe.
It's puzzling when you consider how much he has put into his own academy. It's clearly a passion, but...
by ti-amie
by ti-amie The Zverev issue isn't going away. Apparently a reporter, not one assigned to the tennis beat, has been asking individual players during their post match pressers to give an opinion on the situation.
Here is Iga's response
Here is Ruud's response
This is what Zverev had to say.
I really had no idea he is on the Player's Council. Talk about bad optics. (In my opinion)
by ti-amie
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 15, 2024 10:27 pm
Been a fan of him for a long time.
But this is, to me, one of the cardinal sins. It is not too hard to see that anything related to Saudi Arabia is just dipping your hands into blood money.
Sorry, Rafa. You're a hoe.
The internet remains undefeated. Sorry Rafa but you deserve this.
by Owendonovan I'm surprised by Nadal wading into that human rights cesspool of a country. I guess he's a bit of a sucker.
by meganfernandez
Owendonovan wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 1:43 am
I'm surprised by Nadal wading into that human rights cesspool of a country. I guess he's a bit of a sucker.
Owendonovan wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 1:43 am
I'm surprised by Nadal wading into that human rights cesspool of a country. I guess he's a bit of a sucker.
He has played exos there before.
An exo is quick easy money with a one day commitment. The scale of what he's doing doesn't really compare to an exo. Especially considering he doesn't need another penny.
Owendonovan wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 1:43 am
I'm surprised by Nadal wading into that human rights cesspool of a country. I guess he's a bit of a sucker.
He has played exos there before.
An exo is quick easy money with a one day commitment. The scale of what he's doing doesn't really compare to an exo. Especially considering he doesn't need another penny.
i'm just saying he clearly doesn't have a problem with SA or he wouldn't set foot there, even for a day. I don't think Murray ever plays there, Has't he always turned down exos in SA?
by meganfernandez
nelslus wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 2:09 am
Ons....I mean- huh?!?!
Bad day, still low on confidence, red-lining opponent?? I think she still has hope on clay and grass. Or maybe she never regains that top form. Who knows.
by ponchi101 I don't think she will recover that level of 2022.
An exo is quick easy money with a one day commitment. The scale of what he's doing doesn't really compare to an exo. Especially considering he doesn't need another penny.
i'm just saying he clearly doesn't have a problem with SA or he wouldn't set foot there, even for a day. I don't think Murray ever plays there, Has't he always turned down exos in SA?
by ponchi101 Using that article to claim they are not progressive is not accurate. That was from when Gala Leon was named DC captain, and Nadal stayed clear from that controversy.
If I remember well, both his mother and sister are professionals; I believe the sister is a lawyer?
And the issue about S. Arabia is not solely related to the treatment of women in a Muslim country; that is a macro issue (the same could be said of almost all Muslim countries). It goes deeper into human rights.
I would say that that is the reason Rafa joining this mafia (?) is so strange.
by ti-amie
by ti-amie This may be the reason ATP players are keeping quiet about Zverev.
The nom de jour is DVerev. Seems Abuserev is no longer in vogue.
by JTContinental That Sabalenka respinse is wholly unsurprising
by Fastbackss
JTContinental wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 9:35 pm
That Sabalenka respinse is wholly unsurprising
And uninspiring
by Fastbackss Arantxa Sanchez Vicario was handed a two-year suspended jail sentence for fraud (trying to avoid paying back a bank).
It will be suspended for the next two years and is subject to her not committing any further criminal acts
by ashkor87 Shades of Becker!! My word, these European banks are merciless!
by ti-amie
The comments are worth reading.
by Owendonovan Well, if he misses the French, he misses the French. The band will play on.
by ti-amieAlexander Zverev’s Australian Open run is nightmare for tennis
With domestic abuse allegations hanging over Australian Open semi-finalist, time has come for tennis to properly address issue
Molly McElwee
26 January 2024 • 9:39am
Under the lights in front of a packed Rod Laver Arena, domestic violence was finally brought to the forefront of the conversation at the Australian Open.
No, Alexander Zverev, who is due to face trial in May, was not on court. Instead player-turned-broadcaster Jelena Dokic, herself a survivor of domestic abuse, conducted the post-match interview with Aryna Sabalenka. She took matters into her own hands and asked Sabalenka to sign a towel, adding: “We will auction it off for kids and women affected by domestic violence.”
It was a brief but powerful moment from a woman who revealed in 2017 her experience of physical violence and abuse by her father, as a cloud continues to hang over this tournament.
On Friday, Olympic champion Zverev will compete for a place in the Australian Open final. His progress at this event has brought to life the nightmare scenario that tennis executives have been dreading.
Last week news broke that world No 6 will face a public trial in Germany on allegations of domestic violence. It is the latest in a series of claims laid against Zverev, all of which he has consistently denied.
In the event he goes on to win the title on Sunday, his off-court situation will escalate into a full-blown PR disaster for the ATP and Tennis Australia. Regardless, his run in Melbourne has brought tennis’s lack of a domestic-violence policy into sharp focus.
Dokic’s decision to knuckle down on the issue on Thursday was completely of her own initiative. It served as a message that be the sport has dragged its feet, instead of finalising a code that would deal with this Zverev situation.
When news of his upcoming trial was made public, the ATP told Telegraph Sport: “We are aware of the upcoming legal trial involving Alexander Zverev, and will not be commenting until that process is complete.” From a legal standpoint they are in a sticky situation, as they have failed to introduce any guidelines which would give them power to ban a player from competing on such grounds.
Allegations of domestic abuse have followed Zverev for nearly four years. First Olya Sharypova, a former Russian player and girlfriend of his, alleged that Zverev physically and emotionally abused her during their relationship, including claims he punched her in the face at the 2019 ATP Masters in Shanghai. Her allegations were published by Russian media in 2020 and later by Slate magazine, though she did not pursue any legal avenues against Zverev who called her allegations ‘untrue’.
At the time Andy Murray, among others, called on the ATP to implement a domestic abuse policy. The ATP have repeatedly said they are in the process of delivering one but, more than three years on, that is yet to materialise.
Sport is not known for being proactive in dealing with issues of gendered violence, yet the ATP need not look too far to find domestic violence policies that do exist across various leagues. The NFL’s is the most high profile, after a number of players were accused of assault or violent conduct off the field. Their policy now allows for the league to put players on paid leave if formally charged with a felony offence or crime of violence. Players can also still be disciplined even if they are not legally convicted of any crime, as the evidence found by the NFL’s internal investigations can be enough to prove their policy was broken.
The men’s tennis tour still has no such rules. It took nearly a year after Sharypova first made her allegations public for the ATP to commission an investigation, in late 2021. That took 15 months and in January 2023 found “insufficient evidence to substantiate published allegations of abuse”. Zverev cooperated fully with the investigation – even handing over phone records – but, crucially, was free to play throughout.
During that time he failed to reach the final of a major, but has played in four semi-finals over the past three seasons. It is unsurprising that he is now in his fifth, and two wins away from clinching the biggest title of his career.
He will do so while contending with formal legal proceedings, pertaining to a second batch of allegations from Brenda Patea, his former girlfriend and mother to his daughter. She alleges he choked her during an argument in 2020. She reported the event to police in October 2021, and a German judge found sufficient evidence to issue Zverev with a penalty order in November 2023 to the tune of a €450,000 fine.
Zverev called the penalty order “complete bull----” and the upcoming trial is a result of him appealing that decision. It will see his case played out over 10 days in court, beginning in May and overlapping with both the French Open and Wimbledon. Though he is not required to be present in Berlin for the trial, it is possible that Zverev may enter the next two majors while a court case rages on in the background.
Of course nothing, but the article was about tennis image and public relations...
Plus this thing about guilty until proven innocent (public court of opinion's sense of how the law works).
Sure, innocent before proven guilty. He'll get his day in court. But, IMO, in this case, this feels tone-deaf.
I am a lot more concerned about actual punishments for horrendous abusers of women. So far, two ex-girlfriends have accused him of domestic abuse.
This is the report by Racquet magazine. The original news report has been taken down due to the legal proceedings in Germany. This includes screenshots of text messages in Russian.
by Owendonovan I find her 100% believable and his PR statement remarkably weak and frankly this, " Mr. Zverev regrets that Mrs. Sharypova continues to feed the public without having spoken to him. We are still working towards achieving the reasonable and respectful dialogue Alexander mentioned in his original statement.” is him trying to perpetuate the abuse as it fits right into how he treated Olga. That he hasn't been dropped by anyone yet is a shameful commentary on the treatment of women, celebrity worship, capitalism at all costs, and tennis, amongst others.
by meganfernandez
Owendonovan wrote: ↑Tue Jan 30, 2024 1:11 am
I find her 100% believable and his PR statement remarkably weak and frankly this, " Mr. Zverev regrets that Mrs. Sharypova continues to feed the public without having spoken to him. We are still working towards achieving the reasonable and respectful dialogue Alexander mentioned in his original statement.” is him trying to perpetuate the abuse as it fits right into how he treated Olga. That he hasn't been dropped by anyone yet is a shameful commentary on the treatment of women, celebrity worship, capitalism at all costs, and tennis, amongst others.
Why does he think she would speak to him about this, anyway? And agree that it's sad no one had dropped him. We don't know everything that happened between them, but these things usually don't come out of nowhere. IE, most people are NOT accused of beating up their significant others.
by ti-amie The headline says it all but it's always good to read an entire article to see how deep the poop is.
Martina Navratilova and Chris Evert accused of 'turning backs on women' by Saudi ambassador
Reuters
Princess Reema bint Bandar al-Saud is also a member of Saudi Arabia's Olympic Committee and an International Olympic Committee board member
Tennis greats Martina Navratilova and Chris Evert have "turned their backs on women" by opposing plans to stage women's events in Saudi Arabia, the kingdom's ambassador to the United States has claimed.
Last week, the pair wrote an opinion piece outlining their opposition to hosting the WTA Finals in Saudi Arabia.
The WTA is considering moving the season-ending tournament to Riyadh.
Princess Reema bint Bandar al-Saud said their view was "beyond disappointing".
Navratilova, 67, and Evert, 69, each won 18 Grand Slam singles titles between 1974 and 1991.
Their opinion column in The Washington Post last week was headlined: 'We did not help build women's tennis for it to be exploited by Saudi Arabia'.
In it they said moving the "crown jewel" women's event to Saudi Arabia was "incompatible with the spirit and purpose of women's tennis and the WTA itself" and was a "significant regression".
"Not only is this a country where women are not seen as equal, it is a country where the current landscape includes a male guardianship law that essentially makes women the property of men. A country which criminalises the LGBTQ community to the point of possible death sentences. A country whose long-term record on human rights and basic freedoms has been a matter of international concern for decades," they wrote.
But in a statement issued on Tuesday, Princess Reema - who is also a member of Saudi Arabia's Olympic Committee and an International Olympic Committee board member - said they had "turned their back on the very same women they have inspired and it is beyond disappointing".
She did not address the pair's criticism of laws which criminalise the LGBTQ community.
Al-Saud said the pair should "get your facts straight" on matters of Saudi law affecting women and said their arguments were "based on outdated stereotypes and western-centric views of our culture".
She added: "Failing to acknowledge the great progress women have made in Saudi Arabia denigrates our remarkable journey. This not only undermines the progress of women in sports, it sadly undermines women, progress as a whole.
"Sports should not be used as a weapon to advance personal bias or agendas or punish a society that is eager to embrace tennis and help celebrate and grow the sport."
Tunisia's Ons Jabeur - an icon in the Arab world, and the runner-up at Wimbledon for each of the past two years - said in August she would be "very excited" if the WTA Finals were to be held in Saudi Arabia.
But critics of Saudi Arabia have accused the oil-rich kingdom of using its wealth to invest in sports in a bid to improve its image - known as 'sportswashing'.
It follows recent heavy investment in golf, Formula 1, football and boxing in particular.
Campaigning organisations remain critical of Saudi Arabia's record on human rights and equality.
ti-amie wrote: ↑Tue Jan 30, 2024 8:40 pm
The headline says it all but it's always good to read an entire article to see how deep the poop is.
Martina Navratilova and Chris Evert accused of 'turning backs on women' by Saudi ambassador
Reuters
Princess Reema bint Bandar al-Saud is also a member of Saudi Arabia's Olympic Committee and an International Olympic Committee board member
That takes a lot of nerve given her position, and the privileges the House of Saud enjoys.
by Fastbackss I tried to read it as objectively as possible.
With true objectivity, it would be reasonably convincing.
With even a modicum of knowledge, you end up covered in poop (to quote Ti-Amie)
by ashkor87 I suppose, to a Saudi princess, the notion that women should be equal to men, and free to live the way they want to, is indeed a stereotypical western view..but caling it names, as she is doing, doesn't make it less universally true?!
by ashkor87 The interesting question, which I don't know the answer to..is it more useful and effective to engage with the evildoer or to boycott them?
there is also the principle that it is not always possible to calculate the consequences of one's actions, but it is always possible to do what is right..so 'useful and effective' may not be a good way to think about it?
by JTContinental “We hardly persecute and kill anyone these days!”
by Owendonovan "She did not address the pair's criticism of laws which criminalise the LGBTQ community."
If she did, she would either have to tell the truth or lie, neither of which falls into the PR message they're trying to get out. The western ideas of how women are treated in SA are only formed by the way women are treated in SA.
by ti-amie
Owendonovan wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 12:59 am
"She did not address the pair's criticism of laws which criminalise the LGBTQ community."
If she did, she would either have to tell the truth or lie, neither of which falls into the PR message they're trying to get out. The western ideas of how women are treated in SA are only formed by the way women are treated in SA.
I guess she probably has a driver or two so she doesn't get why women are annoyed about having to have a male relative take them everywhere.
She also has quite a bit of hair showing in that picture.
by ti-amie So they're going after Sinner in Italy...
rockardy
edited 13 hr. ago
Doesn’t Federer also live in some elite Swiss town instead of Basel because it’s a tax haven?
Do any of the top tennis players pay tax?
Edit: apparently nearly everyone but Rafa (who lives and pays tax in Mallorca), lives in Monte Carlo, Switzerland, Dubai or the Bahamas tax havens
That's depressing. Not because it's her specifically, but because this is yet another example of what goes on online. And, for the record, I'm all for the naming-and-shaming of people who do this. Shame on them.
by Owendonovan I bet a few of those folks lost the bets they wagered not even knowing who Linda Noskova is. I work with a gambler who has discovered the myriad wagers you can place, so I get asked about players often from him.
by ponchi101 Get.
Off.
Social.
Media.
Linda.
(Come join TAT2.0. We will love you)
by meganfernandez
Owendonovan wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 12:25 am
I bet a few of those folks lost the bets they wagered not even knowing who Linda Noskova is. I work with a gambler who has discovered the myriad wagers you can place, so I get asked about players often from him.
Right, and then for the tour to let betting companies sponsor tournaments but players must feel like a slap in the face.
by ti-amie Rafa speaks about his deal with KSA
by JTContinental He should have just kept quiet, IMO, because this makes him seem like a simp for Saudi Arabia tourism
by Owendonovan I often marvel at how relationships can go from marriage to jail in a short amount of time.
Former Wimbledon champion Amelie Mauresmo has won a legal battle against her ex-partner, who has been found guilty of harassing her.
Mauresmo, who is tournament director of the French Open and won Wimbledon and the Australian Open in 2006, filed a complaint against ex-wife Marie-Benedicte Hurel in June.
The 44-year-old alleged that she had faced a campaign of blackmail and harassment, including via text messages. Hurel, 60, denied the allegations during the trial, but after being found guilty by a Bayonne court she will now face four months in prison. She has also been ordered to pay €1 in damages.
She was cleared of harassment charges against a second woman, Mauresmo’s current partner.
As well as the four-month jail sentence Hurel has been banned from contacting Mauresmo for two years or going near her or her current partner’s home.
Her legal team has 10 days to lodge an appeal against the verdict. Mauresmo’s lawyers had pushed for a 10-month suspended prison sentence for Hurel.
The pair, who began a relationship in 2014, were married in 2021. Mauresmo filed for divorce last year and lodged the harassment suit shortly after opening divorce proceedings. She has publicly spoken about “going through hell” since the relationship broke down and alleged that Hurel sent a stream of insulting text messages to her, which took an extreme mental toll on the former world number one.
The 2004 Olympic silver medallist was prescribed a total incapacity for work (ITT) certificate for ten days as a result of the strain caused by the divorce and harassment case. She did not attend the trial decision.
by ponchi101 Interesting items from Rafa. Mixed bag. If he is wrong, he will admit it. But in 15 years.
And about SA having opened to the world... what does that mean?
by ti-amie
by ti-amie This explains the awkward exchange between Aljona and Vika yesterday.
From yesterday:
by JTContinental Simona Halep is suing a supplement company in Canada for $10 million for cross contaminating her Keto supplement with Roxadustat. I'm not sure if she's just getting crazy advice from people around her, or if she's just unable to stop herself from digging into a deeper hole and further tarnishing her reputation. If she ever does get back on court, perhaps she'll use a tinfoil hat to block the sun.
by ti-amie
by ponchi101 On the one hand.
Agree. Suspending somebody over smoking marihuana is dumb. It will give you no advantage at all when playing.
On the other.
This guy is saying that a lot of players are taking amphetamines. That is a serious accusation, so somebody has to go and talk to him. Because if it is true, that is a major blow to the sports reputation.
by Fastbackss A lot of people of consequence have said amphetamines are rampant...
by jazzyg Halep's suspension is over.
She can return to the tour immediately if she wants.
by meganfernandez
jazzyg wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2024 3:57 pm
Halep's suspension is over.
She can return to the tour immediately if she wants.
Let's see if she sues. I doubt she will have good results again. She was out for a year and a half.
by ti-amie This person said it better than I could.
Fact: Halep is proved to have had the substance in her system. Fact: this is a reduced ban not proof of innocence.
I've seen too much over the years to know anti-doping is a mess. Athletes dope. Big time, wealthy athletes have the means to do it in sophisticated ways and then have the resources to fight potential bans.
There is an inherent unfairness built into the system because of financial, legal, state power and International Federation political imbalances. If Halep is allowed to return to the sport for actual doping, inadvertent or otherwise, then why is Mikel Ymer still on the sidelines for a whereabouts violation and not actual doping? Why has Jenson Brooksby been given the green light to return for the same violation but not Ymer?
I've long been of the opinion that doping cases should be sent to actual courts where standards of proof are much higher and human rights protections are in play. If this means doped athletes get off scott free, then fine but the current system is a farce and unsustainable #tennis
So, the question I have is this. CAS has made a judgement of contamination but what happens if she loses her lawsuit against the company whose product she alleges was the source? What happens if the courts call (expletive) on the claim? What does antidoping and CAS do then? #tennis
jazzyg wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2024 3:57 pm
Halep's suspension is over.
She can return to the tour immediately if she wants.
Let's see if she sues. I doubt she will have good results again. She was out for a year and a half.
Plus, she won’t be doping anymore, so we’ll see how her stamina holds up on court
And she might be self-conscious about it, which will create a lot of pressure.
It isn't an exoneration, it's a reduced sentence, which is more of a comment on ITIA's fairness and strictness than Halep's guilt or innocence.
by ponchi101 She has been too long off the tour. And with her style of game, it will be hard to come back.
by ashkor87 Halep's suspension was always excessive and arbitrary. I note that they threw out the entire biological passport issue, as lacking evidence. All this is pseudo-science, based on statistics, not any real understanding of how the body works. I wouldn't hang a dog on such evidence..not, it seems, would the CAS. Good for them.
by ashkor87
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2024 11:50 pm
She has been too long off the tour. And with her style of game, it will be hard to come back.
Yes, thry may as well have banned her for life. The tennis World has a lot to answer for.
by ti-amie
by ponchi101 A missed opportunity. Why? Because we don't have Kardasians in the sport, or any other ridiculous characters? What were they going to show? Roger singing with Tommy Haas and Grigor (I don't even remember if it was them)? Mirca raising 4 normal kids? Cisca raising one?
Hey, the sport is like that. You want TV audience? Do wrestling.
by skatingfan I watched the first couple episodes of the first season, was bored, and never went back. Talking about the results of the 2022 Australian Open on the eve of the 2023 Australian Open wasn't very interesting.
by jazzyg Halep is an exceptional athlete.
If she is motivated enough, I see no reason she can't get at least close to her previous level.
by JTContinental Well, she's playing next week, so I guess we'll find out. I don't think she'll be a factor this year, but we'll see how she adjusts to the tour when she's not doping.
by meganfernandez
JTContinental wrote:Well, she's playing next week, so I guess we'll find out. I don't think she'll be a factor this year, but we'll see how she adjusts to the tour when she's not doping.
Can she qualify for the Olympics? I imagine that would be a big goal since it could be her last at her age.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
by ti-amie
by ti-amieSaudi Arabia launch tennis takeover with $2bn take-it-or-leave-it offer
Exclusive: Saudi offer to merge men’s and women’s tours is apparently time-sensitive, with a 90-day expiration period if it is not accepted
Simon Briggs,
TENNIS CORRESPONDENT
12 March 2024 • 5:04pm
Saudi Arabia has made its move for tennis, Telegraph Sport can reveal, with a $2 billion take-it-or-leave-it offer to merge the men’s and women’s tours.
Sources say that after the Premium Tour discussions in Indian Wells last Saturday, ATP chairman Andrea Gaudenzi asked the Masters tournaments to stay behind once the four grand slams had left the room. Gaudenzi then briefed them on an offer from Saudi Arabia’s Public Investment Fund (PIF). The deal is said to be time-sensitive, with a 90-day expiration period if it is not accepted. As things stand, the four grand slams would not be part of this PIF offer.
The biggest upside for PIF would be a Masters 1000 tournament in the first week of the season – which was what the Saudis have wanted all along – and is something Gaudenzi has been pushing for since last summer. However, this idea was strongly opposed by Tennis Australia boss Craig Tiley, who has established the United Cup team event in the same slot in the calendar. The resulting animosity between Tiley and Gaudenzi started the slams down the road to their so-called Premium Tour model last year.
It now seems all the more significant that Gaudenzi did not attend January’s Australian Open along with all the other tennis stakeholders, but instead travelled to Riyadh to negotiate with PIF. A small sponsorship deal was announced last month, putting PIF branding on the ATP rankings, but that was clearly only a starting point.
This development has the potential to cause further tension between the two tours and the four slams, especially as United States Tennis Association chief revenue officer Lew Sherr insisted the ATP and WTA chairmen should be invited to Saturday’s Premium Tour meetings as a point of courtesy.
Now it emerges that Gaudenzi had his own unifying model up his sleeve, in which he would ascend to become a tennis commissioner for the two tours.
The ATP had already put their annual tournament meetings back from Miami next week to Madrid in early May, which is where the decision on the PIF offer is likely to be taken.
In a proposed new model, a Saudi Masters event would kickstart the year, and it is an open secret the WTA have already been planning to run their finals in Riyadh in early November. The new-look tennis calendar – rebranded as the PIF Tour – would now be topped and tailed by visits to the Kingdom.
More combined events would surely be a priority, while the next lot of TV and data rights would also be a unified offering, leaving only the slams to one side. Part of the reason why this has not happened to date is that the WTA are considerably less commercially successful than the ATP, with their last known annual revenues standing at just under £90million in 2022 to the ATP’s £238million.
An equal-parts merger is a hard sell to male players, as they would fear the dilution of their own market value. But a huge cash sweetener from PIF can solve that awkward dilemma.
Gaudenzi has certainly come up with a dramatic response to the Premium Tour model, which threatens to downgrade the status of the ATP and WTA Tours. It is a characteristic move from a man with a reputation for pulling off audacious deals.
Gaudenzi is a 50-year-old Italian with a strong sporting background, having reached the ATP Tour’s top 20 in the mid-1990s. His relations with the slams have grown somewhat frosty since the ATP voted to strip rankings points from Wimbledon in 2022 over its exclusion of Russian and Belarusian players. Last year’s run-in with Tiley over the season’s first week only worsened matters.
As for the PIF, this bid continues the trend of Saudi involvement in sport, which has already ripped apart the golf establishment through the creation of the LIV Tour, while also attracting the biggest boxing bouts to Riyadh. In the UK, the sovereign wealth fund effectively owns Newcastle United.
The rival Premium Tour model has not yet shown any signs of involvement with Saudi Arabia. In the parallel discussions held earlier on Saturday in Indian Wells, 10 tournaments were identified as the framework surrounding the four slams, and none of them were to be staged there.
It’s also worth noting that, as part of last month’s ATP sponsorship deal, Queen’s was offered a significant sum to promote PIF in its courtside branding, but turned the offer down. Although the decision was taken by the Lawn Tennis Association, most insiders suspect the All England Club were consulted. In other words, Wimbledon seems to be rather more squeamish about getting into bed with the Saudis than the ATP.
In effect, the tournaments and players who make up the tours now have two different models to choose from. The Gaudenzi gambit offers immediate Saudi cash, while the Premium Tour model requires stakeholders to believe that a streamlined, slam-led calendar would be more profitable than the status quo.
It seems likely, in the long term, the Premium Tour might be a better solution. Yet there is also a strong chance the PIF bid will win out for reasons of expediency.
by ti-amie From r/tennis posted by Available-Gap8489
I think the majors would still be on the calendar, seperate to ATP/WTA as they are now
This is Gaudenzi’s way of trying to avoid the “super tour” which essentially would axe all non-masters events and limit the field to 96 players
The super tour has backing from AO (it’s Tiley’s idea) and Wimbledon has now given support too.
by ponchi101 how many jokes can we make about the PIF Tour?
Prostitutes Incessantly (expletive) Tour?
Purchasable In - Fidels Tour?
They will do it. The money is too much. As i said before, I have never been offered any money in my life so I will not judge anybody that succumbs to the temptation.
by dave g I think the group that is most likely to decline are the WTA players.
As for "PIF", there is a chance that it will become the "PFFT" tour. (PFFT being a sign of disgust in several cultures.)
by Suliso
dave g wrote: ↑Wed Mar 13, 2024 2:51 pm
I think the group that is most likely to decline are the WTA players.
No way they'll decline a chance to double or more their incomes outside Slams.
JTContinental wrote:Well, she's playing next week, so I guess we'll find out. I don't think she'll be a factor this year, but we'll see how she adjusts to the tour when she's not doping.
Can she qualify for the Olympics? I imagine that would be a big goal since it could be her last at her age.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Apparently she can and there is a small chance that she can mathematically, but she has “aspirational hopes.”
by patrick Olympics will probably give Halep a W/C
by ti-amie Christopher Clarey
@christophclarey@sportsbots.xyz
Stan Wawrinka criticizes the Grand Slam's Premium Tour project in @lequipe@twitter.com. Says they are not interested in the greater good of the game and are not transparent about their revenues. Stan offers support for the Saudi investment project that would potentially merge the ATP & WTA https://x.com/QuentinMoynet/…
by ti-amie Belarushockey.com
@Belarushockey
According to unconfirmed information, former #LetsGoPens player Konstantin Koltsov passed away at the age of 42.
Koltsov was in the United States (Miami)
Koltsov is the boyfriend of the star tennis player Aryna Sabalenka.
by meganfernandez
ti-amie wrote:Belarushockey.com
@Belarushockey
According to unconfirmed information, former #LetsGoPens player Konstantin Koltsov passed away at the age of 42.
Koltsov was in the United States (Miami)
Koltsov is the boyfriend of the star tennis player Aryna Sabalenka.
Omg devastating. How? We might not see her for awhile.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
by 3mlm
patrick wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 12:14 pm
Olympics will probably give Halep a W/C
As a Slam champion, she might be eligible for one of two slots in each singles' draw reserved for Slam or Olympic champions ranked in the top 400 the Monday after the French Open who are otherwise not eligible but only if she can gain enough points (about 200) by the end of the French Open.
But there's plenty of competition. Osaka, Wozniacki, Bencic (the current Olympic champion), Kenin, Kvitova, Kerber, Radacanu and even Venus could potentially end up competing for those spots as well by the end of the French Open.
For the men, the competition is more limited; only Murray, Wawrinka, Thiem, Nadal and Cilic may be eligible though Cilic is definitely a long shot and who knows about Nadal's injury problems.
patrick wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 12:14 pm
Olympics will probably give Halep a W/C
As a Slam champion, she might be eligible for one of two slots in each singles' draw reserved for Slam or Olympic champions ranked in the top 400 the Monday after the French Open who are otherwise not eligible but only if she can gain enough points (about 200) by the end of the French Open.
But there's plenty of competition. Osaka, Wozniacki, Bencic (the current Olympic champion), Kenin, Kvitova, Kerber, Radacanu and even Venus could potentially end up competing for those spots as well by the end of the French Open.
For the men, the competition is more limited; only Murray, Wawrinka, Thiem, Nadal and Cilic may be eligible though Cilic is definitely a long shot and who knows about Nadal's injury problems.
Keep in mind there's a country quota that applies so players like Nadal, and Venus are unlikely to get wildcards unless a lot of players ranked ahead of them from their respective countries bow out.
by Suliso I'm afraid anytime you hear someone under 50 has died suddenly suicide is high on the list of potential causes. Probably only below heart disease of some kind.
by ashkor87
Suliso wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2024 5:16 am
I'm afraid anytime you hear someone under 50 has died suddenly suicide is high on the list of potential causes. Probably only below heart disease of some kind.
Or drug overdose..but yes, my mind immediately jumped to suicide or accident
by mick1303 Belorussian hockey and tennis people are historically close to their dictator Lukashenko. For example, Sergey Teterin (former Soviet tennis player) is his personal friend. Being close to such political figures bears the heightened risk...
Suliso wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2024 5:16 am
I'm afraid anytime you hear someone under 50 has died suddenly suicide is high on the list of potential causes. Probably only below heart disease of some kind.
Or drug overdose..but yes, my mind immediately jumped to suicide or accident
Yes, but that's kind of a suicide too.
by Owendonovan
mick1303 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2024 7:34 am
Belorussian hockey and tennis people are historically close to their dictator Lukashenko. For example, Sergey Teterin (former Soviet tennis player) is his personal friend. Being close to such political figures bears the heightened risk...
Apparently he jumped off the balcony of the hotel. Weird how many Russian/Belorussians of note throw themselves off balconies.
mick1303 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2024 7:34 am
Belorussian hockey and tennis people are historically close to their dictator Lukashenko. For example, Sergey Teterin (former Soviet tennis player) is his personal friend. Being close to such political figures bears the heightened risk...
Apparently he jumped off the balcony of the hotel. Weird how many Russian/Belorussians of note throw themselves off balconies.
interesting point! I know what you mean.. did they jump? or were they pushed? probably not relevant in this case, of course..
by ti-amie
Whatever lets you sleep at night Simona.
by ti-amie
Women's Tennis Blog
@womenstennis
Ex-wife of Aryna Sabalenka's boyfriend Konstantin Koltsov thinks he didn't commit suicide, rather that he got very drunk and accidentally fell. Empty alcohol bottles were found in his room.
by ti-amie
by ti-amie
Spinopsys
@spinopsys@aus.social
Everything said by Craig Tiley and Lew Sherr in this paywalled piece is probably a lie #tennis
RybotCalbearo
@calbearo@convo.casa
@spinopsys this is one of those where you get a quick chance to scroll and skim before the paywall comes down. From what I was able to read it does seem laughable. It does seem like there are definitely competing parties and proposals. Tennis Australia seems to have the most to lose here with the lead up to the Australian Open potentially getting swallowed up by a Saudi event. A problem for that group is that ATP has already moved forward with partnering with PIF and Gaudenzi seems all in on that plan.
If you've been watching Miami the PIF logo is everywhere.
by ti-amie Spinopsys
@spinopsys@aus.social
@savannahstennis @calbearo this response on Gaudenzi is BS
“Asked directly whom of the slam CEOs would be the face of the Premier Tour, Sherr said they had not “spent one minute” discussing that possibility, and it was “not [for] the grand slams to run”.
“We want to be attached to it, we want to be a part of it, we want to contribute, but we’re not looking to run it or direct it,” the US Open boss said.”
you have a guy leading one arm of the sport selling it to KSA and running an agenda counter to yours and you haven’t discussed leadership? LOL
If you've been watching Miami the PIF logo is everywhere.
I seem to remember it being at Indian Wells too.
Wertheim said on Roddick podcast this week that he expects a "middle ground" where they take the money, Saudi gets a tourney but won't be in January.
by ponchi101 The WTA will hold its Finals in Riyadh from 2024 through 2026.
That is the same thing as holding the awards ceremonies for a journalism prize in Pyongyang. Or Havana.
by ashkor87
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2024 1:41 pm
The WTA will hold its Finals in Riyadh from 2024 through 2026.
That is the same thing as holding the awards ceremonies for a journalism prize in Pyongyang. Or Havana.
agree.. this is beyond disappointing but I expected nothing else from Steve Simon..
by ti-amie
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2024 1:41 pm
The WTA will hold its Finals in Riyadh from 2024 through 2026.
That is the same thing as holding the awards ceremonies for a journalism prize in Pyongyang. Or Havana.
by ti-amieSame-sex couples can share rooms at WTA Finals in Saudi Arabia
The WTA has confirmed that Riyadh will host the Finals for the next three years
Simon Briggs,
TENNIS CORRESPONDENT
4 April 2024 • 1:00pm
Same-sex couples will be allowed to share rooms when the WTA Finals move to Saudi Arabia at the end of this season, according to a representative of the tour.
In an announcement that underlined the Middle East’s growing influence within tennis, the WTA confirmed today that Riyadh will host the Finals for the next three years. The prize money will begin at $15.25 million, matching the expected payout for the men’s finals in Turin, and setting a new record for an event on the women’s tour.
One of the issues surrounding this decision is that homosexuality of any kind is forbidden under Sharia law. “Tough to talk about,” said Daria Kasatkina, the tour’s most visible gay player, when the subject came up last summer. “For me, I don’t think that everything is about the money.”
But Marina Storti, chief executive of WTA Ventures, told Telegraph Sport that “we have been assured that everybody will be welcome in Saudi Arabia, regardless of sexual orientation or religion. If there are same-sex couples travelling to Riyadh and they want to share rooms in the hotel, that will be accommodated”.
Storti was also asked about the vocal opposition to Saudi Arabia that was expressed in January by tennis legends Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova. In a joint column published by the Washington Post, Evert and Navratilova said: “Taking a tournament there would represent a significant step backward, to the detriment not just of women’s sport, but women.”
In reply, Storti said: “We have been in discussions with Chris and Martina, I have huge respect for the legends of the game. We had conversations, listened to their concerns, shared everything with the players, read the letters they have sent us. We continue to have a really good relationship with them but we had to make the right decision for the players, the fans and the tour.”
The decision has been taken against the background of a turbulent few weeks within tennis politics, as the four grand slams try to develop a streamlined “Premium Tour” consisting of 15 high-level events.
Meanwhile, Andrea Gaudenzi – who runs the ATP Tour – is auctioning off a tenth Masters 1000 event, with most insiders expecting Riyadh to be the winner of that contest as well.
According to the terms of the deal, the WTA Finals will take place from Nov 2 to Nov 9 and remain in Riyadh for at least another two seasons. The top eight singles players and doubles teams will qualify, and the prize money pool is expected to grow in line with the ATP Finals over the remainder of the contract.
by Suliso Saudi government wishes to rebrand the country as a major tourism and investment destination and they have lots of money. So...
by meganfernandez Serious and possibly stupid question - are there likely Middle East investments in the average IRA, 401K or mutual fund? How many people know what they are really invested in?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
by skatingfan
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2024 1:41 pm
The WTA will hold its Finals in Riyadh from 2024 through 2026.
That is the same thing as holding the awards ceremonies for a journalism prize in Pyongyang. Or Havana.
Every year at the WTA Finals the players pose for a series of photos in gowns that would be against the law for people to wear in public in Saudi Arabia. Will the players be arrested? Will they be forced to cover up when the take the court? Will they be required to cover their hair, and faces while outside of the tournament area like at the hotel, or the airport? What about the women on their team, or the officials for the tournament? Will women be allowed to attend the matches, and walk around freely, and will they be required to cover up as well? What about players from the queer community? I know this is all about the money that the Saudis can pay, but this just doesn't make any sense.
by nelslus
meganfernandez wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 12:04 am
Serious and possibly stupid question - are there likely Middle East investments in the average IRA, 401K or mutual fund? How many people know what they are really invested in?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I do. And, no way in hell would I invest in anything immoral. I might be willing to sell myself on the streets (or, frankly, any of you) for a good sandwich. BUT, I still have my standards.
by ashkor87 I for one am going to boycott this event...won't even look it up or comment on it
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2024 1:41 pm
The WTA will hold its Finals in Riyadh from 2024 through 2026.
That is the same thing as holding the awards ceremonies for a journalism prize in Pyongyang. Or Havana.
Every year at the WTA Finals the players pose for a series of photos in gowns that would be against the law for people to wear in public in Saudi Arabia. Will the players be arrested? Will they be forced to cover up when the take the court? Will they be required to cover their hair, and faces while outside of the tournament area like at the hotel, or the airport? What about the women on their team, or the officials for the tournament? Will women be allowed to attend the matches, and walk around freely, and will they be required to cover up as well? What about players from the queer community? I know this is all about the money that the Saudis can pay, but this just doesn't make any sense.
Yes to most of that I think. One rule for Saudis, another for privileged foreigners. Like in Dubai or Qatar.
Players will live in their bubbles and will hardly notice anything is different. Unless they choose to.
by Owendonovan The flexibility of their religion to benefit the government makes me think the religion isn't actually important to the government, just the application of its rules when it benefits them. There's always exceptions to benefit those on top in religion. What a load.
by ashkor87
Owendonovan wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 1:19 pm
The flexibility of their religion to benefit the government makes me think the religion isn't actually important to the government, just the application of its rules when it benefits them. There's always exceptions to benefit those on top in religion. What a load.
acually,my understanding is they use religion to keep the flock in line..
Owendonovan wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 1:19 pm
The flexibility of their religion to benefit the government makes me think the religion isn't actually important to the government, just the application of its rules when it benefits them. There's always exceptions to benefit those on top in religion. What a load.
acually,my understanding is they use religion to keep the flock in line..
Yes, only the general public needs to follow the religion to a T, those in government don't.
by skatingfan
Owendonovan wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 2:03 pm
Yes, only the general public needs to follow the religion to a T, those in government don't.
We also have to be clear that the 'government' is the House of Saud, and the House of Saud has had many members who have not followed the rules that the population is required to over the years. If they get too out of line they just have them killed. It's really War of the Roses type stuff from time to time when it suits those in line for the throne.
by ti-amie I will have to keep track of this event because of TAT but other than posting about it I will not watch one second of it.
by ponchi101 Worked enough in the Middle East to attest to the hypocrisy of the region.
No alcohol? Sure, until you walk into any of the fancy international hotels. And many more examples that at the moment I am too tired to list.
by ti-amie
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 06, 2024 12:52 am
Worked enough in the Middle East to attest to the hypocrisy of the region.
No alcohol? Sure, until you walk into any of the fancy international hotels. And many more examples that at the moment I am too tired to list.
I read about this "compound" in either Qatar or UAE that is walled (IIRC) and patrolled by armed guards 24/7. Within its walls foreigners would never know they weren't in some exclusive tropical paradise (And yeah I know about those too. They work the same as this one.)
by Suliso My mom and sister have been to a beach resort in UAE. These are rather popular with Europeans and no they don't need to be guarded like that. Let's not exaggerate folks.
In Saudi maybe...
by Fastbackss
Suliso wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2024 4:42 am
My mom and sister have been to a beach resort in UAE. These are rather popular with Europeans and no they don't need to be guarded like that. Let's not exaggerate folks.
In Saudi maybe...
This is part of the point I heard raised on a podcast.
Saudi late to the party in trying to add some elements of faux equality.
(Also talked about how the other countries that have been investing in tennis for 20+ years must not be happy at all that Saudi jumps to the front of the line)
by Suliso In the grand scheme tennis is small potatoes. I imagine UAE are worried that Saudis are trying to steel their position as Arab world's financial and transportation center.
by ashkor87 seriously, though, I hav always wondered - is it better to engage with the wrongdoer or to ostracize them? My instinct says engage but I also remember the case of South Africa and apartheid - change came only after the whole world systematically boycotted them. what do people here think?
by Suliso I think it depends how "wrong". If you take it too far you'd have to ostracize 50%+ of all countries. Where the line is drawn is subjective I'm afraid
by ponchi101 Agree that the lines are blurry. For example: do you ostracize Venezuela? Certainly there are human rights violations and the GOVT is not democratic, but although it is a dictatorship it is not in the same level of N. Korea, for example.
But the issue here is that the WTA is (or course) a women's organization and S. Arabia is one country where women are blatantly and systematically oppressed to the point in which they are objects owned by a male (father or husband). This case is different in that the WTA would not be allowed to be founded in S. Arabia.
That is the reason this is so shocking.
Last. There is also a difference between ostracizing and not-engaging. In this case, the WTA does not have to ostracize S. Arabia; for example, imagine that a good player would come from there. She obviously should be allowed to play in the tour. But from there to granting them the Finals there is a stretch.
by meganfernandez
ashkor87 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 08, 2024 7:42 am
seriously, though, I hav always wondered - is it better to engage with the wrongdoer or to ostracize them? My instinct says engage but I also remember the case of South Africa and apartheid - change came only after the whole world systematically boycotted them. what do people here think?
I think most leaders and changemakers would choose engage in some way, within limits.
WTA going to Saudi Arabia is a gray area for me. They need the money. It will benefit the players. A financially healthy WTA will benefit the sport and women's sports the world over. It's a way of using Saudi Arabia's money for the good of women and creating an opportunity for progress, while likely not inflicting any harm. (I understand sportswashing, but that burden shouldn't fall so heavily on the WTA.) It's similar to effective altruism. Is that naive? Maybe. It's also naive to think that moral victories can sustain the WTA. And I agree with the argument that the WTA shouldn't have to fight this kind of battle alone. If the ATP can cash in, so can they. If it's wrong for the women to cash in, it''s wrong for everyone.
I think I lean toward, if most players are OK with it, I'm OK with it.
by ti-amie
Suliso wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2024 4:42 am
My mom and sister have been to a beach resort in UAE. These are rather popular with Europeans and no they don't need to be guarded like that. Let's not exaggerate folks.
In Saudi maybe...
I wish I could find the original post. I don't think the person was making the situation up.
by Owendonovan I don't trust religious countries, they've never given me reason to.
by ponchi101 Like.... Texas?
by ti-amieJabeur wants 'more respect' for women after reaching Madrid quarters
Madrid (AFP) – Tunisian tennis star Ons Jabeur on Monday called out organisers of European tournaments for failing to "respect" women players by giving preferential treatment to men at combined events after she swept into the quarter-finals of the Madrid Open.
Jabeur dismissed ninth-seeded Jelena Ostapenko 6-0, 6-4 to reach the last eight along with top seed Iga Swiatek who eased past home favourite Sara Sorribes Tormo 6-1, 6-0.
But Jabeur, the 2022 Madrid champion, later took a swipe at tournament organisers, telling reporters she believes tennis still has a way to go to achieve gender equality, despite it being the leader in women's sport.
"Definitely tennis is a sport that I'm proud to play in as a woman," said the world number nine, who next plays either Coco Gauff or Madison Keys for a place in the semi-finals.
"But I feel like we have a long way, especially here in Madrid and in Rome, in Europe in general. I feel like they need to respect women more and they need to respect how we are playing."
Sharing examples from her personal experiences at events, Jabeur said women players were not given the same access to practice courts as the men, and noted how WTA matches were not shown on TV as frequently as ATP matches.
"The way they treat women here and men, they're completely different. Maybe people from outside, they don't see it. I'm definitely one of the people that I want to speak up," she added.
"Here in Spain, I would love to go to the hotel and open the TV and see a woman's tennis match.
"I haven't seen once one tennis match of a woman. Obviously, I understand there are a lot of Spanish (male players) playing, but asking for one match? Even the female Spanish (players) they are not even showing.
"For me it's really frustrating to see that. How can you inspire young girls without showing any match in that?"
Meanwhile, Swiatek dropped her opening game before sweeping the next 12 against her Spanish opponent to book a quarter-final meeting with Brazilian left-hander Beatriz Haddad Maia.
"We played many tough matches against each other so it's not going to be easy," said the Polish world number one of her upcoming opponent.
"She's always a very intense player and knows how to play on clay."
In the men's competition, American Ben Shelton saw his unbeaten 5-0 start to the clay season come to an end at the hands of Kazakhstan's Alexander Bublik, who won 3-6, 7-6 (7/2), 6-4 to reach the fourth round, where he awaits Daniil Medvedev or Sebastian Korda.
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2024 11:45 pm
From a government that hacked a journalist to pieces?
Sure...
The WTA was always going to get its ducks in a row and suppress any opposition to the move. The only thing that surprised me about Kasatkina is that she caved so soon.
Camila Giorgi & her dad allegedly ran away from a villa where they were staying without paying 6 months rent and also took antique furniture worth close to 100,000 euros.
The owner of the villa says he wrote to Camila’s dad & told him to at least return the antique items.
Her father responded by saying that the items were ‘of little value.’
The owner went on to say: “I can’t know how much truth there is or how much Camila owes the state, but I know she owes us. Those objects are part of my mother’s and my life. I want them back.” https://www.corriere.it/sport/tennis/24 ... 2xlk.shtml
by ponchi101 Seems to be their M.O. Get money and then don't pay.
Very odd. I gather she is not broke, so why this sort of dumb, petty theft?
by ashkor87 Zverev's trial begins May 31 and lasts 8 days. He is not required to attend..
by ponchi101 That is wrong. It is not a trivial thing; this is not a parking ticket. He should attend and should testify. RG be damned.
by ashkor87 German Justice system !
by Owendonovan I'd like the German police to come in and drag him off the clay at RG mid match and haul him into a jail cell if he's found guilty.
by ashkor87 I just can't make out his calculations...if he is found guilty, he may end up in jail..and forego millions in prize money..why not quietly pay up the half million euro? What are the chances he will be found innocent? Given that the court has already ruled against him?
by ponchi101 The court didn't rule against him. It was one judge. That was the way I read that news (somewhere in here).
And yes, if he is found guilty, let the law be applied in full force.
The sole reason why he is going this way must be that he truly feels he is not guilty. Otherwise, the calculations are as you say: paying the fine would have been much easier.
The DOJ suing Live Nation, and now Sinclair selling assets - who says the news is never good.
by ti-amieAlexander Zverev pushed and strangled partner, German court told
Tennis star’s defence tells Berlin court claims are ‘unfounded’
Trial begins after Zverev contested fine for domestic assault
Kate Connolly in Berlin
Fri 31 May 2024 16.38 CEST
A Berlin court has begun hearing an appeal by the German tennis player Alexander Zverev against a fine imposed on him for allegedly assaulting his girlfriend, an accusation which he denies.
As the world No 4 competes at the French Open in Paris, his lawyers are fighting his case in court, after he was fined €450,000 (£384,000, $489,000) in October for allegedly trying to strangle Brenda Patea, his then partner and the mother of his three-year-old daughter, Mayla.
The court heard from the prosecutor how, “after a heated argument” at a Berlin flat in May 2020, Zverev allegedly pushed Patea against a wall and strangled her with both hands. Patea had difficulty swallowing and breathing and had suffered from throat pain for several days afterwards, the court was told.
Zverev’s lead defence lawyer, Alfred Dierlamm, told the court the accusations were “unfounded and contradictory”. He said the court would hear evidence from eyewitnesses and would see chat messages, which would give “an objective view of the events”.
Alfred Dierlamm (centre-left) stands across from the plaintiff representatives (right) in the district court room in Berlin. Photograph: Odd Andersen/AFP/Getty Images
The case was quickly adjourned on Friday after Zverev’s legal team lodged a request for the rest of the trial to be held behind closed doors, in order to protect his privacy and the wellbeing of Mayla. The judges are now considering the request.
The trial, for which 10 non-consecutive days have been scheduled, will resume on Monday when a decision on the request for an in camera hearing is expected to be made.
Patea, a former model, appeared in court dressed in a black suit and seemed calm. She was not required to speak. She is due to give evidence close to the start of the trial, according to the court.
Zverev is not required to appear in court at this stage. The trial opening coincides with the French Open which started on 26 May and will continue until 9 June.
The trial is set to run into the dates of the Wimbledon championships and to conclude just before the start of the Paris Olympics. Zverev, a former Olympic champion, is expected to participate in both events. It is unclear if he will be required to attend the court at any point. Before the trial, the 27-year-old said he would not let himself get distracted by the proceedings, and would “keep a clear head”. He said he was confident he would be found innocent.
Brenda Patea is due to give evidence close to the start of the trial, according to the court. Photograph: Odd Andersen/AFP/Getty Images
“I believe in the German system. I do believe in the truth, as well. I do know what I did, I do know what I didn’t do. That’s – at the end of the day – what’s going to come out, and I have to trust in that,” he said last week.
“I do believe that I’m not going to lose this procedure. There’s absolutely no chance I am. That’s why I can play calmly.”
Zverev had previously faced allegations of domestic abuse against a female fellow tennis player, his former girlfriend Olya Sharypova. But the Association of Tennis Professionals, the organisation responsible for the men’s tour, halted its own investigation into the claims in January 2023, after more than two years, due to insufficient evidence.
Zverev defeated Rafael Nadal in the first round of the French Open on Monday, thereby possibly bringing an end to the Spaniard’s years-long domination of the tournament. On Thursday Zverev beat the Belgian David Goffin, securing him a placed in the third round.
He is seeking his first grand slam title, having just won the Italian Open in Rome, and is considered among the favourites. But his legal problems have thrown a shadow over his sporting achievements and he has been questioned frequently over the allegations rather than about his tennis.
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2024 12:24 pm
The court didn't rule against him. It was one judge. That was the way I read that news (somewhere in here).
And yes, if he is found guilty, let the law be applied in full force.
The sole reason why he is going this way must be that he truly feels he is not guilty. Otherwise, the calculations are as you say: paying the fine would have been much easier.
Not only that the truly believes he is innocent, but that he can prove it. Big difference.
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2024 12:24 pm
The court didn't rule against him. It was one judge. That was the way I read that news (somewhere in here).
And yes, if he is found guilty, let the law be applied in full force.
The sole reason why he is going this way must be that he truly feels he is not guilty. Otherwise, the calculations are as you say: paying the fine would have been much easier.
Not only that the truly believes he is innocent, but that he can prove it. Big difference.
This sounds very backwards. Since when the person has a burden to prove his innocence? The general knowledge always was that it is the burden of prosecution to prove the quilt. When did this change?
by ti-amie I found this re the German penal code:
Neither the German Penal Code, nor the German Code of Criminal Procedure contain a clear articulation of a presumption of innocence or of a presumption of guilt. An arrest and certain other pre-trial remedies are allowed when someone is "seriously suspected" of a crime, and a judge may dismiss charged if they are without sufficient legal basis on their face.
As explained here:
If there are indications of a crime, the district attorney or the police department must initiate an official investigation. If the matter comes to a trial, it is the court's duty to pursue further official investigations. The court is obliged to look for evidence, whether or not defence counsel or the district attorney ask that evidence is heard. . . .
In criminal proceedings, all evidence must be presented during the trial. Only the results of the main (oral) hearing may serve as a basis for the sentence (sections 261 and 264, Code of Criminal Procedure). Written evidence, such as documents, must be read out and witnesses must be interrogated in the presence of the court and the public. . . .
Juries are not used in criminal proceedings. Minor cases are tried by one career judge, and other matters are tried by a court consisting of one career judge and two lay judges (section 29, Court Constitution Act). In certain very serious matters (for example, cases involving the death of the victim), the court consists of three career judges and two lay judges (section 74, Court Constitution Act), Lay judges in criminal proceedings are meant to ensure the approval of a criminal verdict by the public. . . .
In civil law cases, the burden of proof generally lies with the party asserting the claim. They must prove their case beyond reasonable doubt.
The burden of proof can be shifted, for example in claims for damages due to breach of contractual obligations. The defendant's responsibility for the contractual breach is presumed by the law, and the defendant bears the burden of proving otherwise (section 280 subsection 1 second sentence, German Code of Civil Law (Bürgerliches Gesetzbuch)).
As there are no disclosure-like proceedings, the party with the burden of proof may need to demonstrate a fact that they have had no chance to obtain knowledge of, while the other party can present this information easily (for example, information regarding the opposing party's assets or tax burden). In this case, the burden of proof does not shift, but the other party has a duty to provide sufficient information for the first party to substantiate their submission. This is known as the "secondary burden of proof". . . .
As criminal proceedings in Germany are not adversarial, but apply the principle of official investigation (see Question 18), it is the court and the prosecutor that have to provide evidence both against and in favour of the accused.
(...)
In what follows, I will not even begin to discuss the various meanings that the presumption of innocence has acquired in different legal systems. I will rather concentrate on the German system and will try to demonstrate the (useful but) limited reach of the presumption of innocence in the German context.
In a legal system such as the German system that is solidly built on codes and statutes, one would expect that a principle as important as the presumption of innocence is enshrined in the Constitution, or at least in one of the first paragraphs of the Code of Criminal Procedure. But the presumption of innocence has not been given a prominent place in the cathedral of German law; in fact, the presumption does not appear anywhere in indigenous German legislation. It has become part of German statutory law only by the wholesale transformation, in 1952, of the European Convention on Human Rights into domestic German law.2
In spite of that less than spectacular genealogy, the presumption of innocence enjoys as high a status in German legal discourse as in any other legal system. In a 1987 decision, the Federal Constitutional Court, Germany’s highest judicial authority, declared that ‘‘the presumption of innocence is a special feature of the principle of Rechtsstaat (a state built on the rule of law) and thus has the rank of a constitutional norm.’’3 The Constitutional Court linked the presumption of innocence to other high-ranking Constitutional concepts, such as the principle of culpability as a requirement for punishment, and human dignity, which is the supreme value protected by Article 1 of the German Constitution.4
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2024 12:24 pm
The court didn't rule against him. It was one judge. That was the way I read that news (somewhere in here).
And yes, if he is found guilty, let the law be applied in full force.
The sole reason why he is going this way must be that he truly feels he is not guilty. Otherwise, the calculations are as you say: paying the fine would have been much easier.
Not only that the truly believes he is innocent, but that he can prove it. Big difference.
This sounds very backwards. Since when the person has a burden to prove his innocence? The general knowledge always was that it is the burden of prosecution to prove the quilt. When did this change?
Since the court of public opinion began being the new societal norm, and people are judged a priori.
Remember how many were sure that Kyrgios was going to be found guilty. And then... we know.
by skatingfan
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 01, 2024 9:38 pm
Since the court of public opinion began being the new societal norm, and people are judged a priori.
Remember how many were sure that Kyrgios was going to be found guilty. And then... we know.
Just because someone is guilty doesn't mean they will be found guilty - justice is elusive.
by ponchi101 Reminds me of a post at the entrance of Tuol Sleng, the prison where the Khmer Rouge "processed" its detainees (before sending them to a killing field).
"It is better to kill ten innocent than let one guilty go free".
Yes. Some guilty people go free. O.J. did. But Zverev has been judged guilty before the trial even started. And it is not as if Germany's justice system is suspect. It is not Venezuela (or Russia).
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2024 12:24 pm
The court didn't rule against him. It was one judge. That was the way I read that news (somewhere in here).
And yes, if he is found guilty, let the law be applied in full force.
The sole reason why he is going this way must be that he truly feels he is not guilty. Otherwise, the calculations are as you say: paying the fine would have been much easier.
Not only that the truly believes he is innocent, but that he can prove it. Big difference.
This sounds very backwards. Since when the person has a burden to prove his innocence? The general knowledge always was that it is the burden of prosecution to prove the quilt. When did this change?
I didn't say he has the burden of proving his innocence. The burden is on the prosecuction in a trial. But everyone presumed innocent still has to mount a defense against the prosecution, and one way to do that is proactively proving your innocence, not just relying on the prosecution to fall short of proving it or be unconvincing to a jury. It sounds like Zverev thinks his evidence proves he didn't do what he is accused of doing.
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 01, 2024 9:38 pm
Since the court of public opinion began being the new societal norm, and people are judged a priori.
Remember how many were sure that Kyrgios was going to be found guilty. And then... we know.
Just because someone is guilty doesn't mean they will be found guilty - justice is elusive.
Yes because as I've always said when we talk about journalism, full truth is elusive. It follows, then, that justice is elusive.
by ti-amie I came across this discussion earlier today on Tennis Xitter. Because it goes into more that a 40m match at a Grand Slam (Is/was Potapova injured?) I posted the comments here. I don't think that there should be double bagels and extremely short matches at a Slam.
I also think that Iga/Naomi could've been a bloodbath as well. You never know with tennis. If the WTA did a better job at promoting its players I won't say the stadium would've been full but attendance would've been better. How many know that Naomi has won four slams besides tennis nerds?
I was watching the matches on Lenglen and went away for a few minutes during a woman's match (Danilovic vs Vondrousova) and came back to see their match was over. The camera panned to the courtside seats which were now almost full and my first reaction was "Oh there must be a men's match up next. It was Dimitrov vs Hurkacz.
Hannah Wilks
@newballsplease
The French Open really does see its women's event as at best a mildly diverting support act and at worst a necessary evil to be hurried through as fast as possible, doesn't it.
I mean, it's not new, but also, for the record, absolutely (expletive) you.
Joanne
@Joeyo1990
Iga/ Osaka would have been an amazing night match
nik fawcett
@nik_f79
· Even when it’s not the support act (Swiatek v Osaka) the stadium was half full for the two players that hold the most GS titles in the draw. Despite being sold out. Despite only one other match being played at the same time. Is this a cultural thing, or is it a WTA thing?
Jack
@Ajackb_
·
8h
"a necessary devil (sic) to be hurried through" it's not the French Open dictating the length of games, it's the sheer lack of quality outside the top 10 in the WTA that causes that
Nick Blake
@nblake22
·
1m
I don’t think you can blame the FO. There’s a big gap between the top 5 or 6 women & the rest of the field. Yes, sometimes the top players lose early on but usually they’ll be there at the end. Without depth in the game it’s inevitable that matches will get hurried through.
Kirit Mookerjee
@Karaokemookie
·
1h
100% right…it’s more than the night session…yesterday they skipped interview and rushed a women’s winner off Lenglen while she was still signing items for fans.
george
@fuzzball222
·
8h
Why would I want to watch an inferior product. The men are much better athletes, they hit the ball much harder. I want to see the top level.
JD
@Hogierolls
·
6h
Then separate the men's and women's tournaments at different parts of the year.
Oh yea. The women needs the men's draw to make the money
by ti-amie
by ponchi101 That is a swell idea. Let a NON POLITICAL organization sanction people for their political views.
What could go wrong?
by Owendonovan Not many Russian/Belarussians are allowed to compete in the upcoming Olympics, because of Russia's warmongering and doping. Russian athletics clubs are closely aligned with or sponsored by the military, so separating them is difficult.
by meganfernandez
Owendonovan wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2024 4:20 pm
Not many Russian/Belarussians are allowed to compete in the upcoming Olympics, because of Russia's warmongering and doping. Russian athletics clubs are closely aligned with or sponsored by the military, so separating them is difficult.
Interesting... The main effect on tennis is Sabalenka's absence. Maybe Rublev. Not really Medvedev since he isn't his best on clay. He'll have a nice long vacation and get some extra prep on hard court. Wonder if that will give him an edge at the US Open, being rested.
Owendonovan wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2024 4:20 pm
Not many Russian/Belarussians are allowed to compete in the upcoming Olympics, because of Russia's warmongering and doping. Russian athletics clubs are closely aligned with or sponsored by the military, so separating them is difficult.
Interesting... The main effect on tennis is Sabalenka's absence. Maybe Rublev. Not really Medvedev since he isn't his best on clay. He'll have a nice long vacation and get some extra prep on hard court. Wonder if that will give him an edge at the US Open, being rested.
The Russian doping sanction is no longer in effect for Russia but a warmongering ban is in effect for Russian/Belarusian athletes associated with state or military organizations, usually in team sports (all Russian/Belarusian team sports are banned). It is likely that most Russian/Belarusian tennis players who otherwise qualify will be allowed to play (although Dayana Yastremska might object).
From the ITF:
The International Tennis Federation (ITF) has published the following statement regarding the Paris 2024 Olympic Tennis Event and Paralympic Tennis Event:
“The International Olympic Committee and International Paralympic Committee will allow qualified and eligible athletes with Russian and Belarusian passports to compete in the Paris 2024 Olympic Games as Individual Neutral Athletes (“AIN”) and Paralympic Games as Neutral Paralympic Athletes (“NPA”). The ITF confirms that tennis players from these nations will be allowed to enter the Olympic and Paralympic tennis competitions in an individual and neutral capacity if they comply with the IOC’s AIN and the IPC’s NPA principles. Neutral athletes will need to meet the selection and eligibility requirements as set out in the applicable ITF Regulations.
“The ITF decision aligns with the majority of International Federations (IFs) regarding individual competition and athletes participating in the Paris 2024 Games this summer. The ITF’s position is also in accordance with tennis’ existing international policy which was adopted in March 2022.
“As part of the Qualification System for the Olympic Tennis Event, provisions in the ITF regulations allow nations to apply to the ITF Olympic Committee for an exemption from the minimum Davis Cup and Billie Jean King Cup participation requirements when these have not been met by individual players. As the Russian and Belarusian national tennis federations are currently suspended from ITF membership, there will be a revised process for these two nations. For Individual Neutral Athletes (AIN) with a Russian passport, the ITF will liaise with the IOC. For Individual Neutral Athletes (AIN) with a Belarusian passport, the ITF will liaise with the Belarus Olympic Committee (BOC).
“As per the IOC’s Principles of Participation for Individual Neutral Athletes (AIN), in the case of athletes with Russian and Belarusian passports, the ITF will propose a final list to the IOC, together with the criteria and reasoning used to confirm eligibility. The IOC AIN Eligibility Review Panel will review these lists for a final decision on entry.
“The process for the Paralympic Wheelchair Tennis Event will be confirmed in due course.”
by Oploskoffie And then, just like that, the Zverev case concludes with an out of court settlement:
by ti-amie What is interesting is that this particular trial came about because he didn't want to pay the original fine he was assessed. If he'd paid the fine this wouldn't have been hanging over his head.
From the BBC link posted above:
The Tiergarten District Court in Berlin said: “There has been a settlement between the defendant and the complainant. This settlement is not part of this trial though and the court is not part of this settlement.”
The world number four was given a penalty order last October and fined 450,000 euros (£390,000) after being accused of physically abusing his ex-partner.
Zverev, 27, denied the claims and lodged an objection against the order, which resulted in a public trial.
The money he's paid publicly is for wasting the court's time.
by mick1303 Apparently Mirra Andreeva has pro-Putin views. Quite disappointing. Now I will never root for her...
by Owendonovan
mick1303 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2024 2:15 pm
Apparently Mirra Andreeva has pro-Putin views. Quite disappointing. Now I will never root for her...
You can't compete internationally in gymnastics if you have expressed any kind of support for Putin or the war. I wish that was across the board.......
Neutrality will be evaluated through the following criteria:
1) No link with the Russian or Belarusian military or with any other national security agency
Gymnasts/athletes and support personnel who are or become contracted or are or become in any way connected to the Russian
or Belarusian military, including any affiliated entities, or with national security agencies since the beginning of the conflict (24
February 2022) cannot participate in FIG sanctioned events.
2) No communication associated with Russia or Belarus
Gymnasts/athletes and support personnel must refrain from any activity or communication, either verbal, non-verbal or written,
associated with the national flag, anthem, emblem or any other symbol of the Russian Federation, the Republic of Belarus, their
NFs or NOCs, or from any support for the military conflict in Ukraine in any official venue or in the media (including interviews,
social media, retweets and reposted messages on Twitter, forwarded messages, etc.) at any time since the beginning of the
military aggression in Ukraine by the Russian Federation and the Republic of Belarus.
Gymnasts/athletes and support personnel must not make any public statements or comments or take any action or behave in
any way that may prejudice the interests of the competition, its integrity or the participant's neutrality required as a condition for
participation.
3) No support for the military conflict in Ukraine
Only gymnasts/athletes and support personnel who have not supported nor are supporting the military conflict in Ukraine may
participate in FIG sanctioned events.
AD HOC RULES - CONDITIONS OF PARTICIPATION FOR INDIVIDUAL NEUTRAL ATHLETES/GYMNASTS OF RUSSIAN AND BELARUSIAN SPORTING NATIONALITY
AND THEIR SUPPORT PERSONNEL
3
2023.12.12_Ad-hoc Rules_V2.0
Gymnasts/athletes and support personnel employed by or contracted to the Russian and Belarusian military or national security
agencies are considered as supporting the military conflict.
Any other form of verbal, non-verbal or written expression, explicit or implicit, at any time since the beginning of the military
conflict in Ukraine, in particular public statements, including those made in social media, participation in pro- military conflict
demonstrations or events, and the wearing of any symbol in support of the military conflict in Ukraine, for example the "Z"
symbol, are considered to be acts of support for the military conflict in Ukraine.
by ti-amieFrench Open Heading to TNT On 10-Year, $650-Million Deal: Report
Adam Zagoria
Contributor
I'm a basketball and tennis insider
The French Open will have a new television home in the United States beginning in 2025.
The Grand Slam tournament is leaving NBC/Peacock and the Tennis Channel — which has a sublicensing deal with NBC — and will air on TNT, TBS and truTV as part of a 10-year, $650 million deal with Warner Bros. Discovery, according to The Athletic. The year’s second major tournament will also air on the Max streaming service and Bleacher Report digital platforms, as first reported by Variety.
As Variety noted, Warner Bros. Discovery has broadcast the French Open in Europe since 1989 as part of its massive Eurosport pay-TV networks.
The news comes as WBD could lose the rights to broadcast NBA games on TNT next year, putting the future of the popular “Inside The NBA” in jeopardy.
Tennis Channel is currently in its 18th — and final year — broadcasting the French Open and offered close to 2,500 hours of live matches this year on its platforms. NBC will air its final women’s final on Saturday at 9 a.m. featuring two-time defending champion Iga Swiatek, and the men’s final on Sunday between Carlos Alcaraz and Alexander Zverev.
The U.S. Open men’s final on Sept. 8 will air on ABC.
A Tennis Channel spokesman declined comment on the new deal Friday night via email.
Tennis Channel’s talent lineup includes Hall of Famers Martina Navratilova, Jim Courier and Lindsay Davenport, while the NBC/Peacock stable of talent includes John McEnroe and Mary Carillo.
It’s unclear what talent will be featured under the new WBD deal.
by skatingfan Interview with Noah Eagle (son of Ian Eagle) who was doing the play-by-play commentary on NBC. Both Eagle, and Gill Gross, the host, did commentary for Tennis Channel during the French Open. This covers some of the behind the scenes with the commentary team from a different perspective, and I think Noah had some good thoughts on the dynamics, and differences between Tennis Channel, and NBC coverage.
by ponchi101 The Zverev case made no sense to me. He said he wanted his name cleared of charges. So, he did not pay the original fine because that would have been like admitting he was guilty.
Now the court says "nothing to see here".
And, the accuser agrees to the solution and will get no money.
Only thing I can say is that it seems it was not about money, from either side. But now we really won't know what happened; only both of them know.
by skatingfan
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 09, 2024 10:29 pm
The Zverev case made no sense to me. He said he wanted his name cleared of charges. So, he did not pay the original fine because that would have been like admitting he was guilty.
Now the court says "nothing to see here".
And, the accuser agrees to the solution and will get no money.
Only thing I can say is that it seems it was not about money, from either side. But now we really won't know what happened; only both of them know.
We have her side of events, and we have his denials. I don't think we were ever going to have more.
by jazzyg Thank goodness that Tennis Channel has lost the French Open. This has nothing to do with the quality of coverage and everything to do with me frequently traveling this time of year and Tennis Channel being available at zero hotels.
by skatingfan
jazzyg wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 1:14 am
Thank goodness that Tennis Channel has lost the French Open. This has nothing to do with the quality of coverage and everything to do with me frequently traveling this time of year and Tennis Channel being available at zero hotels.
Is TNT generally more available at US hotels?
by jazzyg First off I put this in the wrong thread.
Second,TNT is available in just about every U.S. hotel and basic cable system. Would not have helped this year because I am in Mexico, but most years it would.
by Fastbackss My fear is that a small amount will be available on TNT and that the "lesser" matches will not be available on cable and will instead be on their app.
(Fun sidebar though - I have delayed changing cable providers - was going to change to YouTube tv - but TC isn't offered - have to go to a sports tier. The cost for that isn't all that much cheaper than cable and I feel like will be adding aggravation for nothing)
by meganfernandez
Fastbackss wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 10:32 am
My fear is that a small amount will be available on TNT and that the "lesser" matches will not be available on cable and will instead be on their app.
Isn't that how it has been with ESPN and TC?
by Fastbackss To a degree, but I get TC
by ti-amie
by skatingfan This episode opens with a conversation of Max Eisenbud about how young players, and their parents get the money to fund the sport in the early years before the success. Eisenbud claims that 70% of the players in the French Open draw had agreements with a private wealthy individual to provide funds to get the early career going.
by ponchi101 Considering how well French tennis is doing, might be a recipe NOT to follow.
Maybe keeping you a bit "hungry" might be more encouraging.
by ti-amie Maybe it's changed now but I remember the LTA takes the place of the wealthy French individuals in England. They pay/paid players stipends for necessities.
by skatingfan
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 18, 2024 5:28 pm
Considering how well French tennis is doing, might be a recipe NOT to follow.
Maybe keeping you a bit "hungry" might be more encouraging.
ti-amie wrote: ↑Tue Jun 18, 2024 8:10 pm
Maybe it's changed now but I remember the LTA takes the place of the wealthy French individuals in England. They pay/paid players stipends for necessities.
As I understood what was being said that it applied to 70% of the players in the draw of the singles events at Roland Garros, and not just to French players, though there was a reference to a French player - I assumed it was Mladenovic - who had a wealthy clothing deal that hasn't paid off.
by JTContinental Ben Rothenberg reading Martina for filth. Her comeback is weak and she is quickly slipping on my list of respected elders.
by Owendonovan Some unresolved issue she has with Renee Richards?
by ponchi101 Martina has been the most vocal. But Chris is on her side too. And they are not alone.
by dave g
JTContinental wrote: ↑Sat Jun 22, 2024 7:01 pm
Ben Rothenberg reading Martina for filth. Her comeback is weak and she is quickly slipping on my list of respected elders.
I don't think that Ben Rothenberg understands what he is taking about. Martina is not taking part in an "anti-trans crusade". She is talking about the effect of X chromozones on muscle production. Changing your gender does not change your chromozones. Getting hormone replacement therapy does not change the amount of muscle mass accumulated before the hormone replacement therapy. In the same manner that men have an advantage over women in muscle mass accumulation, men who have changed their gender to female will still have a residual advange in muscle mass accumulation over genetic women. It is just biology. End of Rant.
by skatingfan
dave g wrote: ↑Sat Jun 22, 2024 10:20 pm
I don't think that Ben Rothenberg understands what he is taking about. Martina is not taking part in an "anti-trans crusade". She is talking about the effect of X chromozones on muscle production. Changing your gender does not change your chromozones. Getting hormone replacement therapy does not change the amount of muscle mass accumulated before the hormone replacement therapy. In the same manner that men have an advantage over women in muscle mass accumulation, men who have changed their gender to female will still have a residual advange in muscle mass accumulation over genetic women. It is just biology. End of Rant.
But it's not that simple, and the biology is not that simple. Muscle mass can be lost very easily - ask anyone whose spent any time in hospital - and taking estrogen hormones greatly reduces muscle mass in a similar way. If it's just a matter of chromosomes than what about people born XY that never undergo male puberty because of androgen insensitivity syndrome? People with that condition seem to have some advantages in athletic competition compared to people born XX who undergo female puberty. It's a complicated issue, and probably one that has to be dealt with on a sport by sport basis, but one of the issues is that there isn't enough high level athletes in most sports to even study what advantage may exist.
dave g wrote: ↑Sat Jun 22, 2024 10:20 pm
I don't think that Ben Rothenberg understands what he is taking about. Martina is not taking part in an "anti-trans crusade". She is talking about the effect of X chromozones on muscle production. Changing your gender does not change your chromozones. Getting hormone replacement therapy does not change the amount of muscle mass accumulated before the hormone replacement therapy. In the same manner that men have an advantage over women in muscle mass accumulation, men who have changed their gender to female will still have a residual advange in muscle mass accumulation over genetic women. It is just biology. End of Rant.
But it's not that simple, and the biology is not that simple. Muscle mass can be lost very easily - ask anyone whose spent any time in hospital - and taking estrogen hormones greatly reduces muscle mass in a similar way. If it's just a matter of chromosomes than what about people born XY that never undergo male puberty because of androgen insensitivity syndrome? People with that condition seem to have some advantages in athletic competition compared to people born XX who undergo female puberty. It's a complicated issue, and probably one that has to be dealt with on a sport by sport basis, but one of the issues is that there isn't enough high level athletes in most sports to even study what advantage may exist.
Good points. I agree that that unusual cases will occur, and that rules should allow for exceptions in such cases. However, writing rules that allow for exceptions is going to be difficult, and even more difficult in a public press-release format where neither side is actually listening to, or talking to the other side. It probably needs to be a private conversation between small groups of experts. Currently, we are not doing that very good at that in the US.
JTContinental wrote: ↑Sat Jun 22, 2024 7:01 pm
Ben Rothenberg reading Martina for filth. Her comeback is weak and she is quickly slipping on my list of respected elders.
I don't think that Ben Rothenberg understands what he is taking about. Martina is not taking part in an "anti-trans crusade". She is talking about the effect of X chromozones on muscle production. Changing your gender does not change your chromozones. Getting hormone replacement therapy does not change the amount of muscle mass accumulated before the hormone replacement therapy. In the same manner that men have an advantage over women in muscle mass accumulation, men who have changed their gender to female will still have a residual advange in muscle mass accumulation over genetic women. It is just biology. End of Rant.
This is the basis of why I think if you're caught doping, you shouldn't ever be allowed to compete again.
by ti-amie
by ashkor87 Why would Muguruza agree to directing the WTA year-ending tournament in Saudi? Money?
by ponchi101
ashkor87 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 2:17 pm
Why would Muguruza agree to directing the WTA year-ending tournament in Saudi? Money?
C'mon, Ashkor. You are too much a person of the world to even ponder such a question.
Reputation?
Prestige?
Honorable cause?
What other thing could be lurking her into the role?
by ti-amieATP approves in-competition wearables to enhance player performance & recovery
The initiative ushers in a new era of innovative data-led performance analytics
June 27, 2024
By Press Release
The ATP has announced the approval of in-competition wearable devices for players across the ATP Tour and ATP Challenger Tour, starting from 15 July. The initiative ushers in a new era of innovative data-led performance analytics and injury prevention in tennis.
Wearable devices will generate cutting-edge insights for players from physical metrics such as heart rate and high-intensity load data, enhancing their analysis of matches and training sessions. ATP has approved both STATSports and Catapult devices and will centralise all data into ATP Tennis IQ – Wearables, an intuitive new dashboard for players.
The initiative introduces a new dimension to ATP Tennis IQ, an analytics platform launched in 2023 that democratises access to match data and insights for players, aiding preparation and recovery. It is the latest in a strategic push by ATP to enhance the sport through tech, data and innovation.
Ross Hutchins, ATP Chief Sporting Officer, said: "The introduction of wearables on Tour is a big step forward in our push to optimise player performance and prevent injury. Ultimately, empowering players to get the very best out of their careers. We’re delighted to make cutting-edge data insights more accessible than ever and look forward to continuing our innovation in this space.”
All data collected will remain confidential, ensuring privacy for players and their support teams. Phase Two of the initiative, which will incorporate next generation insights derived from wearable data and player feedback, is scheduled for later this year.
ti-amie wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 7:57 pmATP approves in-competition wearables to enhance player performance & recovery
The initiative ushers in a new era of innovative data-led performance analytics
June 27, 2024
ti-amie wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 7:57 pmATP approves in-competition wearables to enhance player performance & recovery
The initiative ushers in a new era of innovative data-led performance analytics
June 27, 2024
So wearables aren't the same as edibles?
STOP IT! When I first saw it I said what edibles are allowed now?
ti-amie wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 7:57 pmATP approves in-competition wearables to enhance player performance & recovery
The initiative ushers in a new era of innovative data-led performance analytics
June 27, 2024
So wearables aren't the same as edibles?
That joke is hard to swallow...
by meganfernandez I wrote about Tara Moore comeback
Who wins with this? Halep? No, her reputation remains tainted. Any of the agencies? Nope, they truly look conspirational.
What this guy says. This is the worst possible outcome.
by skatingfan This was in Jon Wertheim's 50 Parting Thoughts column for Wimbledon.
13. Comeback player of the year candidate: the Premier Tour. Remember the Premier Tour? The Tennis Australia and USTA-catalyzed idea proposed as a streamlined, less-is-more approach, pruning the calendar to 14 events? It was trotted out as a defensive maneuver against the Saudis possibly taking Week 1 of the calendar—to the detriment of the Aussie swing—but grew into an entirely new approach to change the sport foundationally. It was dismissed by several factions. Now it’s retrenched, and a number of models are on the table. This is all at the PowerPoint stage, but the most intriguing iteration/proposal we heard featured private equity funding—potentially multiple billions—offering players a guaranteed $1 million to those ranked 1–100 and a guaranteed $500,000 to those ranked 101–200. The 1–100 players would play for enhanced prize money at the 14 events. The second tranche would play for zero prize money, but an opportunity for promotion. This is all hearsay, but discussions are underway and consultants are still billing. Stay tuned.
by ti-amie
skatingfan wrote: ↑Thu Jul 18, 2024 1:31 am
This was in Jon Wertheim's 50 Parting Thoughts column for Wimbledon.
13. Comeback player of the year candidate: the Premier Tour. Remember the Premier Tour? The Tennis Australia and USTA-catalyzed idea proposed as a streamlined, less-is-more approach, pruning the calendar to 14 events? It was trotted out as a defensive maneuver against the Saudis possibly taking Week 1 of the calendar—to the detriment of the Aussie swing—but grew into an entirely new approach to change the sport foundationally. It was dismissed by several factions. Now it’s retrenched, and a number of models are on the table. This is all at the PowerPoint stage, but the most intriguing iteration/proposal we heard featured private equity funding—potentially multiple billions—offering players a guaranteed $1 million to those ranked 1–100 and a guaranteed $500,000 to those ranked 101–200. The 1–100 players would play for enhanced prize money at the 14 events. The second tranche would play for zero prize money, but an opportunity for promotion. This is all hearsay, but discussions are underway and consultants are still billing. Stay tuned.
by ti-amie
by ti-amie
by ti-amie
by ti-amieJannik Sinner receives anti-doping sanction after positive tests for banned substance clostebol
By Matthew Futterman
5h ago
Jannik Sinner, the men’s tennis world No 1, has received an anti-doping sanction after twice testing positive for a banned substance. An independent tribunal has ruled that Sinner bears “no fault or negligence” for both positive tests, but Sinner has been stripped of his ranking points, prize money, and results from the BNP Paribas Open at Indian Wells in March.
An in-competition test at that tournament on March 10, 2024 detected an adverse analytical finding (AAF) for clostebol, a banned anabolic steroid which is a non-specified substance on the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) prohibited list. A second test, conducted out of competition on March 18, also detected a metabolite of clostebol.
The first sample was recorded at 76pg (picograms) per millilitre. The second was recorded at 86pg per millitire. One picogram is equal to one trillionth of a gram.
The benchmark sanction should a player be found at fault for violations of this nature is four years of ineligibility.
As a non-specified substance, an AAF for clostebol carries a mandatory provisional suspension from tennis. Sinner appealed against that suspension on both occasions, and so was allowed to continue to play, and rise to the top of the tennis world, as the investigation into whether he intentionally took the banned substance unfolded. He won the Cincinnati Masters title on Monday.
An independent tribunal appointed by Sport Resolutions, a private firm that often oversees doping cases, approved lifting both suspensions.
The International Tennis Integrity Agency (ITIA) investigation concluded with a hearing, also overseen by Sport Resolutions, on August 15. At that hearing an independent tribunal ruled that Sinner bore “no fault or negligence” for the two violations of the Tennis Anti-Doping Program (TADP). The Italian admitted both violations, and is able to continue to play as he has done since the tests were conducted.
In separate announcements Tuesday, ITIA and Sinner’s team said that the Italian had tested positive for low levels of the anabolic steroid, once used as part of the notorious East German state-sponsored doping regime in the 1960s and 1970s.
Sinner’s team and the ITIA stated that he cooperated fully with the investigation.
The ITIA investigation concluded that an over-the-counter healing spray containing clostebol had been brought to Indian Wells by Sinner’s physiotherapist, Umberto Ferrara. Ferrara acquired the spray, under the brand name Trofodermin, in February.
Sinner’s physiotherapist, Giacomo Naldi, then cut himself using a scalpel that he used to treat callouses on Sinner’s feet at the tournament. Naldi used the spray to treat the cut, and according to the full decision of the tribunal, “did not check the contents of the spray or see that present on the label of the canister was “clostebol.”
The physiotherapist then conducted massages and treatments on Sinner between March 5 and March 13. According to Sinner’s team statement, “the physiotherapist treated Jannik and his lack of care coupled with various open wounds on Jannik’s body caused the contamination.”
In the full decision published by the ITIA, Professor David Cowan, a scientific expert commissioned to review Sinner’s explanation, commented on the amounts of clostebol found in Sinner’s samples.
“Even if the administration had been intentional, the minute amounts likely to have been administered would not have had […] any relevant doping, or performance enhancing, effect upon the player.”
Sinner lost to Carlos Alcaraz in the semifinals of Indian Wells, and did not learn of the positive test until April — after winning the Miami Open. He was provisionally suspended between April 4 and April 5, and April 17 and April 20, according to the full decision in the tribunal published by the ITIA Tuesday.
“I will now put this very challenging and hugely unfortunate period behind me,” Sinner said.
“I will continue to do everything I can to ensure I continue to comply with the ITIA’s anti-doping programme and I have a team around me that are meticulous in their own compliance.”
Clostebol, which is considered a weak steroid compared with other performance enhancing drugs, can help build muscle and assist in the recovery process following an intense workout, allowing athletes to train harder. It is also found in various therapeutic creams available without prescriptions in various countries.
Jamie Singer, a lawyer for Sinner, described the Italian as the latest athlete to fall victim to the mistakes of his team, and said that the ITIA did not challenge his claim of innocence in regards to intentionally taking a banned substance.
“Under the rules he is responsible for his team members’ mistakes and those mistakes sadly led to the positive test,” Singer said.
Italian tennis players have previously tested positive for clostebol. Matilde Paoletti and Mariano Tammaro, both 17-years-old at the time, tested positive in 2021 when anti-doping was under the jurisdiction of the International Tennis Federation (ITF), according to a report in Honest Sport.
Both players were subject to a mandatory provisional suspension, because their results were AAFs. Neither player was nor is anywhere near close to the notoriety of Sinner, whose test was conducted in the weeks following a decision against the ITIA from the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) in the most recent high-profile anti-doping case in tennis: that of former Grand Slam champion Simona Halep.
The ITIA had sought a six-year ban against the Romanian, having provisionally suspended her in October 2022, after she tested positive for roxadustat.
Halep argued that she had inadvertently ingested it through a tainted supplement her coaching team, including Patrick Mouratoglou, had recommended. CAS ruled that on “the balance of probabilities” Halep’s anti-doping violations were “not intentional.” It reduced her four-year ban to nine months — about half the time she had already served after her provisional suspension.
The Halep case sparked widespread demands from players and tennis officials for reform, as well as criticism of the ITIA’s prolonged investigation. Halep’s former coach, Darren Cahill, who now coaches Sinner, called for “false accusations and false narratives” around Halep’s case to stop in a now-deleted post on X in March.
The ITIA administers some 2,500 tests each quarter to tennis players of varying abilities and ages, though higher-ranked players are subject to the most testing. Tests take place during tournaments and out-of-competition, with players having to state their exact whereabouts for one hour each day, to allow for the ITIA to subject them to random blood and urine tests.
by ti-amie ATP Tour
@atptour
ATP STATEMENT ON JANNIK SINNER
‘We are encouraged that no fault or negligence has been found on Jannik Sinner’s part. We would also like to acknowledge the robustness of the investigation process and independent evaluation of the facts under the Tennis Anti-Doping Programme (TADP), which has allowed him to continue competing. This has been a challenging matter for Jannik and his team, and underscores the need for players and their entourages to take utmost care in the use of products or treatments. Integrity is paramount in our sport.’
by ti-amie
urban myths, legends
@urbanmyths
You honestly have to look at the players who didn’t go to the Olympics a little bit differently now, because the testing protocols there are different than on the tour.
by ti-amie
There is talk that the 400 point removal has been done but I don't see it on the ATP site...
by ti-amie Cahill has coached both Halep and Sinner.
Erik Gudris
@ATNtennis
Cahill on Sinner "You would have seen a big change in his physicality and excitement to be on the court, it wore him down physically and mentally, he got tonsillitis (and) missed the Olympics. We're not looking for any sorrow. Just thankful there is no ban attached." #USOpen
by ponchi101 I like him.
But this stinks badly. The Italian connection stinks badly. The Cahill-Halep-Sinner connection stinks badly.
by ti-amieItaly’s Clostebol doping crisis across tennis, football and the Olympics
An anabolic steroid once given to East and West German athletes has resurfaced in elite Italian sport. Honest Sport investigates whether the drug is now being used similarly to testosterone creams.
EDMUND WILLISON MAY 22, 2024
A doping warning sign printed on the box of Trofodermin cream containing the anabolic steroid clostebol.
In the months leading up to the 1987 World Athletics Championships, Birgit Dressel had taken a concoction of drugs and medications in order to train harder, and harder, as she sought to bring heptathlon gold home to West Germany. Tragically, Dressel never made it to the Championships nor the Olympics in Seoul the following season. Dressel died from organ failure in April that year.
Dressel passed away in the intensive care unit of Mainz hospital after suffering from paraplegic shock. She had taken copious amounts of narcotics, under the directions of her doctors, to treat painful muscle hardening caused by her anabolic steroid use. Dressel considered anabolic steroids to be harmless which had contributed to her liberal use of the drug class.
“They are all harmless drugs. All athletes take them. It's really nothing special”, said Dressel before her death.
An autopsy revealed traces of 101 different medications in Dressel’s body. At the time, the West German athlete was sadly in the hands of doctors who were so far down the rabbit hole of sports performance that they had lost sight of the line between sports medicine and healthcare. Dressel had been provided steroids by a doctor seen as part-mad, part-genius - Dr. Armin Klümper.
Klümper had also reportedly provided steroids to the Bundesliga football teams Vfb Stuttgart and SC Freiburg in the seventies and eighties. When documents were reviewed in 2015 detailing the substances Klümper had allegedly provided to both clubs, the German national team manager Joachim Löw, who played for both teams at the time, had to answer whether he had visited the doctor’s clinic.
"Of course, I was there a time or two. At 18 or 19, of course, I wouldn't have dared to ask and tell him that I might want to have what he gave me tested in the laboratory. My trust in this profession of medicine was immense," said Löw.
Löw was asked about his relationship with Klümper a year after he led Germany to their fourth World Cup triumph, but the questions concerned events some thirty-five years earlier, although before Klümper had passed away. But it is a substance that Klümper reportedly provided to both Dressel and VfB Stuttgart that has, unlike Klümper, come back from the dead – the anabolic steroid clostebol.
Over the past decade the drug has resurfaced in Italian football and across Italy’s wider sporting landscape. Between 2019 and 2023, 38 Italian athletes have tested positive for clostebol despite the fact it is scarcely produced in oral or injectable form by pharmaceutical companies, as it was during the Dr. Klümper era.
Serie A footballers, tennis players and Olympic athletes in Italy have all had to explain how the steroid accidently found its way into their bodies, and in most cases they have been deemed to have done so convincingly. But an investigation by Honest Sport has now found that cases involving the drug are appearing in small athlete networks. There are also experts in anti-doping who are concerned that clostebol is now being used in cream form by Italian athletes in search of the type of illegal edge once sought by the late Birgit Dressel.
Clostebol arrives in elite Italian sport
“Wake up tomorrow morning…frozen…and to transport you mahogany boxes are needed”.
These were the death threats directed at NADO Italia from Fabio Lucioni’s Instagram account soon after the anti-doping agency sentenced the player to a one-year doping suspension in 2018. Over the course of the previous two seasons, Lucioni had captained his club, Benevento Calcio, to back-to-back promotions from Serie C to Serie A – the most successful period in Benevento’s history.
Unfortunately for Lucioni, his talismanic impact on Benevento would not be felt in Italy’s top-flight division. Lucioni tested positive for clostebol after only the third match of the newly promoted side’s Serie A season. The club captain’s season was over before he knew it.
Even though clostebol is an anabolic steroid that builds muscle mass and enhances performance, an Italian tribunal was lenient with Lucioni and accepted that he had not knowingly cheated. However, the club’s doctor, Walter Giorgione, was banned for four years because he had administered Giorgione a drug from his own personal medical box, rather than the club’s. Giorgione confessed that he had used a spray on Lucioni containing clostebol to help heal the footballer’s cut more quickly.
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The Lucioni case made national news, but it did not serve as a cautionary tale to Italy’s elite athletes. The number of clostebol cases in Italian sport ranges far and wide across the country. Italian athletes have tested positive for the drug before the Olympics, four tennis players have been caught for clostebol and two basketballer players on the same team were careless enough to both ingest the anabolic steroid.
Four years after the Lucioni case, two Italian junior tennis players, just seventeen years old at the time, tested positive for clostebol within three months of each other. One of the minors, Matilde Paoletti, who played at the Junior French Open, was training at the Olympic training centre in Formia in 2021, the year she was caught. The other minor, Mariano Tammaro, was a top ranked world junior, and in 2021 was training under the national team coach.
Any concerns that these players were the victim of child doping were officially misplaced. Paoletti tested positive after petting her pet chihuahua who had been administered clostebol spray by her mother to heal a wound. While in the case of Mariano Tammaro, his father applied a spray to a wound on his son’s knee.
But away from tennis, the spray of clostebol cases has been felt further across Italian sport.
When the girlfriend of the Olimpia Milano basketballer, Riccardo Moraschini, sliced her finger while cooking, she used a clostebol spray to heal the cut. Like Lucioni’s doctor, Paoletti’s mother and Tammaro’s father, she was unaware that clostebol was prohibited for use in professional sport. Unfortunately, when she naturally came into contact with her boyfriend, clostebol unknowingly entered his system. Equally unfortunately for Olimpia Milano, Italy’s most successful basketball club, their power forward Christian Burns had tested positive for clostebol two years earlier.
And, in pre-games doping testing before the 2016 Rio Olympics, two qualified athletes both tested positive for clostebol, out-of-competition in the month of July. Both athletes, the volleyball player Orsi Toth and the sailor Roberto Caputo, missed the Rio Olympics for Italy.
Italy has quite clearly been in the midst of a clostebol crisis, of some form or another, for much of the past decade. A decade in which clostebol detection methods have become more sensitive.
According to the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA), half of the world’s clostebol cases come from Italy. A statistic partially explained by the fact that Italy is one of the only remaining countries in which clostebol is still sold.
When WADA banned the heart medication Meldonium in 2016, the drug at the centre of the Maria Sharapova affair, the hundreds of positive cases were largely concentrated in Russia. In order for an athlete to test positive for a drug, inadvertently or not, the drug has to be available in their geographical location. Therefore, doping cases involving specific drugs can be location specific.
Outside of Eastern Europe, Meldonium is not widely available. Therefore most of the cases involve Russians. Outside of Italy, clostebol is not widely available in Europe, therefore the majority of cases involve Italians.
It remains bewildering, however, that Italy’s athletes are missing the warning sign printed on clostebol creams and sprays in Italy, which clearly states that the product contains ‘doping’ substances.
Clostebol readily available in Italian pharmacies
Injectable Clostebol sold under the brand name Megagrisevit-Mono®.
During the time Dr. Armin Klümper was reportedly supplying clostebol to Bundesliga football clubs the drug was sold under the brand name Megagrisevit-Mono®. Megagrisevit was an injectable and at the time was marketed by the Italian pharmaceutical company Farmitalia.
The drug was initially developed in East Germany, before it was synthesised with other drugs and given to the state’s Olympic athletes, but since the collapse of the Berlin Wall the drug is scarcely available in Europe.
However, in Italy and Brazil, the countries faced with the most clostebol cases, the drug can be bought in pharmacies without a prescription. In Italy, it is most commonly sold in cream form as Trofodermin, and a tube can cost as little as twelve euros. Trofodermin is applied to the skin to treat abrasions, lesions, burns and infected wounds.
If an athlete handles the cream, even in applying it to another individual, then they can risk testing positive. This has been one of the common defences used in Clostebol cases. And in 2020, this defence was assessed in a controlled experiment by scientists at Rome’s anti-doping laboratory and published in the paper, ‘Detection of clostebol in sports: Accidental doping?’. Scientists were able to detect Clostebol in the urine of a subject who had applied Trofodermin cream to another individual.
But it is a sentence within that paper that perforates the argument that only the innocent have befallen to the clostebol curse. “According to Italian law, a visible sign indicating the presence of a substance included in the WADA list of prohibited substances must be present”, reads the paper.
Trofodermin cream, as mandated by law, is sold in a packaging emblazoned with a warning that the product contains a doping agent. This warning would seemingly make any argument of inadvertent use untenable. A warning so problematic that athletes’ lawyers have had to address the warning head-on during disciplinary hearings.
For example, in perhaps the most famous clostebol case, the Norwegian Olympic skier Theresa Yohaug claimed to have tested positive for the steroid after applying Trofodermin cream to treat her sunburn while training in Italy. Yohaug acknowledged she had seen the packaging, but an independent tribunal still accepted she had missed the red warning sign on the box. She was allowed to return for the Beijing Olympics in 2022 and win three gold medals. At those same Olympics the Spanish skater Laura Barquero tested positive for clostebol. To no surprise Barquero is based in Italy.
Clostebol creams, testosterone gels and passing drug tests
(...)
The former head of the Portuguese anti-doping agency, Luis Horta, has now told Honest Sport that he is concerned that sports doctors have begun to use Clostebol creams as they do testosterone gels.
“I think there are some doctors involved in doping strategies that are using this strategy to avoid detection or to have a low risk to be detected”.
(...)
“I suspect that they use creams. Because creams as clostebol, or testosterone by cream or by gel. The detection window it's very, very short. It's sometimes some hours, then it's a good way to dope. With a lower risk to be tested, positive,” Horta told Honest Sport.
Clostebol creams are less potent than testosterone gels, so the performance-enhancing effect is more debatable. However, athletes often inject a stronger anabolic steroid, and then ‘top themselves up’ with weaker creams as competition, and more drug testing, approaches.
“It's like with a bathtub. The shot fills the tub. The cream keeps replenishing it every day to top it off,” a sports medicine doctor once said about testosterone creams.
Horta, who has also worked in Brazilian anti-doping, says he has been involved in at least one doping case in which he had suspected the athlete had been using clostebol as a doping agent.
“In one case the athlete received the standard punishment because he couldn’t explain the case. In another case the athlete had a reduced sanction because he demonstrated that was negligent by applying a cream with clostebol on his dog without using gloves,” said Horta.
There are numerous cases to support Horta’s affirmations. In 2023, the Italian tennis player Stefano Battaglino was banned for four years after he failed to show that he had taken Clostebol inadvertently. And curiously before the 2010 Commonwealth Games, the British shot-putter Mark Edwards tested positive for both clostebol and testosterone. He was not able to prove a lack of intent.
When Honest Sport asked a leading scientist at a WADA-accredited laboratory whether they too suspected that clostebol creams were being abused, they wondered whether it was instead still being used in injection, rather than cream, form.
“My perception is that the use of clostebol cream (e.g. trofodermin), in common therapeutic amounts, is hardly performance-enhancing, but despite the limited availability of other formulations (of clostebol), the misuse by other routes (e.g. injection) cannot be excluded, and differentiating by analytical means between the ways the anabolic agent entered an athlete’s organism is difficult. Hence, disregarding clostebol (as a doping agent) is probably not an option.”
A Carabinieri police officer in Italy told Honest Sport that it is rumoured that clostebol creams may be being used to hide the presence of other more potent doping substances.
“I heard other rumours, i.e. that it can be used to mask another substance. That means to hide positives for other substances that must have been taken advertently, and it interferes with laboratory analysis. Even in this case only science can tell us if it is legends, or if it is reality,” said the source.
Whether by injection, or by gel, or whether used as a masking agent, there is obvious concern surrounding the number of ever-continuing clostebol cases in Italy, and it is the ever-presence of doping doctors in professional sport that raises that concern higher.
(...)
But as the Italian Carabinieri officer told Honest Sport, the sheer number of clostebol cases, at least in Italy, can no longer be considered an anomaly.
“Of course, except in cases of accidental doping, if the use of a substance spreads it’s not just a coincidence.”
It is now the decision of anti-doping authorities to determine how seriously they want to investigate Italy’s problem with a drug once central to the East German, and West German, doping programmes.
This investigation was a long one, so any sharing of the article, with friends or colleagues, would be most welcomed! Thank you, Edmund.
by ti-amie
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 20, 2024 9:00 pm
I like him.
But this stinks badly. The Italian connection stinks badly. The Cahill-Halep-Sinner connection stinks badly.
As you all know I have never been a fan but I never suspected something like this. It's bad for tennis. He should've been treated like any outside of the top 100 player would've been treated.
by ti-amie Ramon Santiago
@RamonSa40854713
Pues sí Sinner no despide a su equipo por poner en peligro su carrera, es cómplice y culpable. Lo de la ATP, blanqueando a este niño, sin rubor, es para que lo miren los demás tenistas.
Translated from Spanish by Google
Well, if Sinner doesn't fire his team for putting his career in danger, he is an accomplice and guilty. The ATP's act of whitewashing this kid, without blushing, is something for other tennis players to look at.
by ti-amie If the finger is bandaged...
by ti-amie
by skatingfan Sinner's ATP ranking points have been updated to show a blank for the result of Indian Wells.
by ti-amie
skatingfan wrote: ↑Tue Aug 20, 2024 10:03 pm
Sinner's ATP ranking points have been updated to show a blank for the result of Indian Wells.
Thanks.
by skatingfan I've seen the comment about Sinner not playing the Olympics because of the level of testing at the Olympics being higher, but tennis players are under the same rules as all other Olympic eligible athletes all the time. Tennis players don't have a collective agreement, like hockey or basketball, that gives more rights to the athletes, and fewer obligations when it comes to testing.
by ti-amie Tommy Paul trolling...
by nelslus Thing is....of course, all of this stinks....really, really badly. EVEN regardless of guilt or innocence or the in-between. The tours keep handling all of this so poorly and inconsistently.
I am clearly not any kind of huge Sinner fan. He has been kind of meh-plus for me, as much as I hugely respect his immense tennis talent.
IN any case, selfishly- I just am so, so tired of all of these controversies. i just want to go to or watch pretty little tournaments and see players prettily bash pretty- TENNIS!!!!- balls at each other, until one of them wins. AND, especially, when my favorites, win, of course.
EVEN more selfishly, every time one of these failed drug tests stories comes out, I keep thinking and sweating about....let this NOT be about one of my favorites!!! (Do you hear THAT, Carlos.....) LEAVE MY FAVORITES IN PEACE!!!!!
by Owendonovan I find these mamsy pamsy excuses obnoxiously unbelievable. If my phisio jeopardized my $10,000.0000 a year job, Id fire then sue him/her.
by ponchi101 Kind of surprised about some of the players' responses. It seems to me that Jannik is not as popular as I would expect. Shapo came down hard on this, as did Kyrgios, and Paul's slight trolling is quite clear.
It may be that in the end, it is ended dog eating dog. Sinner takes away a lot of money from a lot of other players, I guess.
by ti-amie
by ti-amie Everyone here knows how I feel about the Sharapova case but whoever tweeted this is, in my opinion, making a valid point. Mikael Ymer was suspended for three years for missing the doping control people but never tested positive for anything. Failing two separate tests and having the argument made for you that the difference was having the ability to hire the best lawyers is kind of weak sauce. (I just read an entire post of Reddit making that point).
Below is the post where the argument is made that his case moved so rapidly because he hired the best lawyers.
by ponchi101 To claim that Sharapova did not have the establishment behind her is silly. She was a WTA darling, had Nike in her corner, and had all the star power needed.
Sinner seems to be guilty, at the moment. The reactions have been diametrically opposite. But don't try to make it as is Sharapova was treated unfairly. Jannick is being treated unfairly; to all the other players that have been suspended.
Let's not forget Troicki.
by jazzyg I usually stay out of these discussions entirely because it is not my expertise in any way, shape or form, but is the argument that Sinner, unlike Halep, tested positive for an infinitesimal amount of whatever it was that was found irrelevant? Could he have had more in his system earlier and be lying to the nth degree, or is it clear he never could have had enough to make a difference?
In general, the moral police that descend on any player in these circumstances exhausts me. Sometimes it is warranted and sometimes it is not. All I am interested in is the seriousness of the offense, not whether a different standard was applied to different players based on their status or popularity. Don't care. Just want to know the seriousness of each individual infraction.
by ti-amie But Sharapova did have that press conference and was suspended for a short time. Maybe because her use of meldonium had been proven to have taken place for years, something she admitted, they had to do something. They just wanted her to come out of the situation with a mostly clean image and they got what they wanted.
The Halep situation is also different because of the levels of roxa found in her samples. Her ban was reduced but she has so far been unable to credibly perform on court. Blake gave her a WC into Miami shortly after her suspension was reduced and her performance was lacking.
This situation is different because he failed tests in back to back tournaments. The fact that he failed was kept from the public while a scenario was put together that had his trainer say he cut his finger on March 3 that ended up causing the positives at both IW and Miami. That the trainer Naldi had cut his finger while reaching into his bag was confirmed by eye witnesses who said they remembered the incident that had occurred five months earlier during testimony in front of the ITIA. That Sinner was not immediately suspended after IW is what's making some players lose it and many fans suspicious. It doesn't help that Naldi was involved in prior incidents involving the same steroid cream.
This is ugly no matter how we look at it. I think we can all agree it's bad for tennis and bad for the upcoming US Open where many expected him to win the second hard court Slam of the year.
by ti-amie
jazzyg wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2024 10:38 pm
I usually stay out of these discussions entirely because it is not my expertise in any way, shspe or form, but is the argument that Sinner, unlike Halep, tested positive for an infinitesimal amount of whatever it was that was found irrelevant? Could he have had more in his system earlier and be lying to the nth degree, or is it clear he never could have had enough to make a difference?
In general, the moral police that descend on any player in these circumstances exhausts me. Sometimes it is warranted and sometimes it is not. All I am interested in is the seriousness of the offense, not whether a different standard was applied to different players based on their status or popularity. Don't care. Just want to know the seriousness of each individual infraction.
This particular steroid is excreted out of the body in about 8 hours. That there was such a small amount implies to people familiar with how this steroid acts in the body that there could've been a higher amount found if the test had been administered earlier. It's the same with roxa, the PED Halep was found guilty of using.
The article posted above explains what this steroid does, that Naldi, Sinner's physio, has been involved in prior incidents with it, and how this steroid is to Italy what meldonium is/was to Eastern Europe. That public reaction from players has been mostly negative or silence says a lot but that is just my opinion.
by ti-amie
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2024 10:12 pm
To claim that Sharapova did not have the establishment behind her is silly. She was a WTA darling, had Nike in her corner, and had all the star power needed.
Sinner seems to be guilty, at the moment. The reactions have been diametrically opposite. But don't try to make it as is Sharapova was treated unfairly. Jannick is being treated unfairly; to all the other players that have been suspended.
Let's not forget Troicki.
I always forget about Troicki. Thanks for the heads up.
by mick1303 The team of good lawyers is useful in a sense that they can quickly and efficiently use the existing regulations. In case of Sinner - reject the provisional suspension and appeal. But no lawyers can do anything outside these regulations. The problem is not that there was something wrong done in handling the Sinner case. IMV the problem is that something was NOT DONE RIGHT in all those other cases.
by ti-amie
by ti-amie
The idea that there was an earnest @usopen
request to restrict questions to tennis? That was the sport at its jay-vee best...Full credit to Sinner for recognizing the absurdity of the request- and the seriousness of the situation - fielding all questions, and doing so with poise...
by ponchi101 Roddick came squarely on the side of Jannik.
by ti-amie
by ti-amie
by ti-amie The Tennis Letter
@TheTennisLetter
Novak Djokovic was asked about Jannik Sinner’s case, ‘I can understand the sentiments of a lot of players who are questioning whether they are treated the same’
“As far as Jannik's case, you know, as I said, these kind of instances are the very reason that why we founded PTPA that is always advocating for fair protocols, clear protocols for standardized approaches to these kind of cases.
I understand the frustration of the players is there because of lack of consistency. As I understood, his case was cleared the moment basically it was announced. But, you know, I think five or six months passed since the news was brought to him and his team.
So, yeah, there is a lot of issues in the system. We see lack of standardized and clear protocols. I can understand
the sentiments of a lot of players that are questioning whether they are treated the same.
Hopefully the governing bodies of our sport will be able to learn from this case and have a better approach for the future. I think collectively there has to be a change, and I think that's obvious.
Many players -- without naming any of them -- I'm sure you know already who these players are, have had similar or same, pretty much the same cases, where they haven't had the same outcome, and now the question is whether it is a case of the funds, whether a player can afford to pay a significant amount of money for a law firm that would then more efficiently represent his or her case.
I don't know. Is that a case or not? That's something really I feel like we have to collectively investigate more, to look into the system and understand how these cases don't happen, meaning not the case itself, but how we can standardize everything so that every player, regardless of his ranking or status or profile, is able to get the same kind of treatment.
So, yeah, I would say that's probably the overall, I guess, my opinion and observation of this entire case of what we have been reading and observing and talking about the last few days.”
(via US Open Press)
by ponchi101 Serious question. Ymer is still serving his suspension? If so, I gather that it should be lifted immediately, until protocols are indeed reviewed.
by skatingfan
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2024 4:41 pm
Serious question. Ymer is still serving his suspension? If so, I gather that it should be lifted immediately, until protocols are indeed reviewed.
Ymer retired.
by patrick Think Ymer is going to come back after deciding to serve the suspension
by ti-amie
by ti-amie
by ti-amie The Tennis Letter
@TheTennisLetter
Daniil Medvedev says nobody knows the truth about Jannik Sinner’s case except him & his team, ‘I hope the situation can be the same for every player & every player can defend himself’
“My perspective is it’s only him who knows what happened exactly. So we cannot know. Nobody knows the exact truth except him and his team and maybe the Independent Tribunal. I hope this situation can be the same for every player and every player can defend himself because I think what he did was within the rules. It’s just the rules are a bit vague, etc.. for me the only thing where I’m a little bit like doping cases make me scared is imagine, so, he knew what happened, & good for him.. so he managed to defend himself. Imagine whatever player in the top 100 gets an email, and they say there was cocaine in your blood. And you come to them and say ‘I never did anything in my life. I don’t know how it got there.’ And when you don’t know you get suspended. That’s a little bit the tricky part. That’s how doping rules are. It’s ok. You go with it. As I say.. I just hope it’s the same treatment for every player.”
(via US Open Press)
by ponchi101 A balanced statement. Agree.
by ti-amie Caroline Garcia
@CaroGarcia
This are some of the messages I received lately after loosing some matches. Just a few of them. There’s hundreds. And now, being 30 years old, although they still hurt, because at the end of the day, I’m just a normal girl working really hard and trying my best, I have tools and have done work to protect myself from this hate. But still, this is not ok.
It really worries me when I think about younger players coming up, that have to go through this. People that still haven’t yet developed fully as a human and that really might be affected by this hate. Maybe you can think that it doesn’t hurt us. But it does. We are humans. And sometimes, when we receive this messages we are already emotionally destroyed after a tough loss. And they can be damaging. Many before me have raised the subject. And still, no progress has been made.
Social media platforms don’t prevent it, despite AI being in a very advanced position. Tournaments and the sport keeps partnering with betting companies, which keep attracting new people to unhealthy betting. The days of cigarette brands sponsoring sports are long gone. Yet, here we are promoting betting companies, which actively destroy the life of some people. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying they should be banned as people are free to do whatever they want with their money. But maybe we should not promote them. Also, if someone decided to say this things to me in public, he could have legal issues. So why online we are free to do anything? Shouldn’t we reconsider anonymity online?
I know those who write these terrible messages won’t change because of this. But maybe you, next time you see a post from an athlete, singer or any other person, that has failed or lost, you will remember that she or he is also a human being, trying his best in life.
Be kind. Give love. Enjoy life
Caro
by ti-amie
by ti-amie Craig Shapiro @Cshaptennispod
Right now, reliable sources telling me that Vukov has been removed from the official WTA coaches list, which signifies a ban.
Craig Shapiro
@Cshaptennispod
That’s interesting. Rybakina withdraws and rumors are flying that Vukov was banned from the tour.
ti-amie wrote: ↑Fri Aug 30, 2024 2:42 am
Craig Shapiro @Cshaptennispod
Right now, reliable sources telling me that Vukov has been removed from the official WTA coaches list, which signifies a ban.
Craig Shapiro
@Cshaptennispod
That’s interesting. Rybakina withdraws and rumors are flying that Vukov was banned from the tour.
I've read a lot of speculation and let's just say I agree we should wait for the official statement.
by ti-amie It should be noted that the rumors about Rybakina appear to have been started by an Australian bettor pretending to be the president of the Kazakh tennis federation who had to take the account down after he was busted because he spelled the man's name wrong.
Tennis Connected is a more reputable source but again this may all turn out to be nothing.
I'm not posting the rumors but they're easy to find with a bit of digging.
by Tybal I totally get what you’re saying. Adding a category for serious off-court tennis issues makes sense. It’d help keep things organized and ensure topics like the Russian invasion or match-fixing don’t get lost in the shuffle. I’ve had similar issues trying to figure out where to post discussions about big off-court matters, so this could really help clear things up.
by ti-amie Hold your horses, sit down, take a deep breath.
The BIG ANNOUNCEMENT from Rybakina is that she's a brand ambassador for Lexus.
How will women's tennis survive?
by ponchi101 Actually, good. It means that she is doing well in the other aspects of her life.
I really do not want this to turn into an "abuse story". Don't want any more of those in the WTA.
by Fastbackss Not saying it will have any impact on Indian Wells given his wealth, but losing 3/4 of a B has to sting...
by ponchi101 Ok. But, how do you substitute X? There is no other platform that truly replaces it.
So if you dump the stock, you make your losses clear. If you stick around, maybe it bounces back.
by ti-amie
I can't screen shot. Maybe someone who can can make one of the Wertheim tweet...
by ti-amie TF
@tennisfan2222
It’s reasonable to question the exceptionally fast & lenient verdict. And even if JS is innocent, how come his team which includes a seasoned pharmacist & physio from Italy weren’t deemed negligent in their handling of a known steroid already implicated in 38 Italian sports cases
d0r
@d0r111_
Quel farmaco in Italia e’ detto da “banco”, venduto in farmacia senza ricetta medica
Translated from Italian by
In Italy, this drug is called “over the counter”, sold in pharmacies without a medical prescription.
TF
@tennisfan2222
·
1h
Yes, I read that. Considering it’s sold over the counter, all the more reason for them to have been well aware of it. Especially when it has cropped up in numerous accidental doping violations in the country.
The packaging is also clearly labeled to indicate it causes doping violations. It's posted somewhere upthread.
by ti-amie
ti-amie wrote: ↑Tue Aug 20, 2024 9:03 pmItaly’s Clostebol doping crisis across tennis, football and the Olympics
An anabolic steroid once given to East and West German athletes has resurfaced in elite Italian sport. Honest Sport investigates whether the drug is now being used similarly to testosterone creams.
EDMUND WILLISON MAY 22, 2024
A doping warning sign printed on the box of Trofodermin cream containing the anabolic steroid clostebol.
In the months leading up to the 1987 World Athletics Championships, Birgit Dressel had taken a concoction of drugs and medications in order to train harder, and harder, as she sought to bring heptathlon gold home to West Germany. Tragically, Dressel never made it to the Championships nor the Olympics in Seoul the following season. Dressel died from organ failure in April that year.
Dressel passed away in the intensive care unit of Mainz hospital after suffering from paraplegic shock. She had taken copious amounts of narcotics, under the directions of her doctors, to treat painful muscle hardening caused by her anabolic steroid use. Dressel considered anabolic steroids to be harmless which had contributed to her liberal use of the drug class.
“They are all harmless drugs. All athletes take them. It's really nothing special”, said Dressel before her death.
An autopsy revealed traces of 101 different medications in Dressel’s body. At the time, the West German athlete was sadly in the hands of doctors who were so far down the rabbit hole of sports performance that they had lost sight of the line between sports medicine and healthcare. Dressel had been provided steroids by a doctor seen as part-mad, part-genius - Dr. Armin Klümper.
Klümper had also reportedly provided steroids to the Bundesliga football teams Vfb Stuttgart and SC Freiburg in the seventies and eighties. When documents were reviewed in 2015 detailing the substances Klümper had allegedly provided to both clubs, the German national team manager Joachim Löw, who played for both teams at the time, had to answer whether he had visited the doctor’s clinic.
"Of course, I was there a time or two. At 18 or 19, of course, I wouldn't have dared to ask and tell him that I might want to have what he gave me tested in the laboratory. My trust in this profession of medicine was immense," said Löw.
Löw was asked about his relationship with Klümper a year after he led Germany to their fourth World Cup triumph, but the questions concerned events some thirty-five years earlier, although before Klümper had passed away. But it is a substance that Klümper reportedly provided to both Dressel and VfB Stuttgart that has, unlike Klümper, come back from the dead – the anabolic steroid clostebol.
Over the past decade the drug has resurfaced in Italian football and across Italy’s wider sporting landscape. Between 2019 and 2023, 38 Italian athletes have tested positive for clostebol despite the fact it is scarcely produced in oral or injectable form by pharmaceutical companies, as it was during the Dr. Klümper era.
Serie A footballers, tennis players and Olympic athletes in Italy have all had to explain how the steroid accidently found its way into their bodies, and in most cases they have been deemed to have done so convincingly. But an investigation by Honest Sport has now found that cases involving the drug are appearing in small athlete networks. There are also experts in anti-doping who are concerned that clostebol is now being used in cream form by Italian athletes in search of the type of illegal edge once sought by the late Birgit Dressel.
Clostebol arrives in elite Italian sport
“Wake up tomorrow morning…frozen…and to transport you mahogany boxes are needed”.
These were the death threats directed at NADO Italia from Fabio Lucioni’s Instagram account soon after the anti-doping agency sentenced the player to a one-year doping suspension in 2018. Over the course of the previous two seasons, Lucioni had captained his club, Benevento Calcio, to back-to-back promotions from Serie C to Serie A – the most successful period in Benevento’s history.
Unfortunately for Lucioni, his talismanic impact on Benevento would not be felt in Italy’s top-flight division. Lucioni tested positive for clostebol after only the third match of the newly promoted side’s Serie A season. The club captain’s season was over before he knew it.
Even though clostebol is an anabolic steroid that builds muscle mass and enhances performance, an Italian tribunal was lenient with Lucioni and accepted that he had not knowingly cheated. However, the club’s doctor, Walter Giorgione, was banned for four years because he had administered Giorgione a drug from his own personal medical box, rather than the club’s. Giorgione confessed that he had used a spray on Lucioni containing clostebol to help heal the footballer’s cut more quickly.
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The Lucioni case made national news, but it did not serve as a cautionary tale to Italy’s elite athletes. The number of clostebol cases in Italian sport ranges far and wide across the country. Italian athletes have tested positive for the drug before the Olympics, four tennis players have been caught for clostebol and two basketballer players on the same team were careless enough to both ingest the anabolic steroid.
Four years after the Lucioni case, two Italian junior tennis players, just seventeen years old at the time, tested positive for clostebol within three months of each other. One of the minors, Matilde Paoletti, who played at the Junior French Open, was training at the Olympic training centre in Formia in 2021, the year she was caught. The other minor, Mariano Tammaro, was a top ranked world junior, and in 2021 was training under the national team coach.
Any concerns that these players were the victim of child doping were officially misplaced. Paoletti tested positive after petting her pet chihuahua who had been administered clostebol spray by her mother to heal a wound. While in the case of Mariano Tammaro, his father applied a spray to a wound on his son’s knee.
But away from tennis, the spray of clostebol cases has been felt further across Italian sport.
When the girlfriend of the Olimpia Milano basketballer, Riccardo Moraschini, sliced her finger while cooking, she used a clostebol spray to heal the cut. Like Lucioni’s doctor, Paoletti’s mother and Tammaro’s father, she was unaware that clostebol was prohibited for use in professional sport. Unfortunately, when she naturally came into contact with her boyfriend, clostebol unknowingly entered his system. Equally unfortunately for Olimpia Milano, Italy’s most successful basketball club, their power forward Christian Burns had tested positive for clostebol two years earlier.
And, in pre-games doping testing before the 2016 Rio Olympics, two qualified athletes both tested positive for clostebol, out-of-competition in the month of July. Both athletes, the volleyball player Orsi Toth and the sailor Roberto Caputo, missed the Rio Olympics for Italy.
Italy has quite clearly been in the midst of a clostebol crisis, of some form or another, for much of the past decade. A decade in which clostebol detection methods have become more sensitive.
According to the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA), half of the world’s clostebol cases come from Italy. A statistic partially explained by the fact that Italy is one of the only remaining countries in which clostebol is still sold.
When WADA banned the heart medication Meldonium in 2016, the drug at the centre of the Maria Sharapova affair, the hundreds of positive cases were largely concentrated in Russia. In order for an athlete to test positive for a drug, inadvertently or not, the drug has to be available in their geographical location. Therefore, doping cases involving specific drugs can be location specific.
Outside of Eastern Europe, Meldonium is not widely available. Therefore most of the cases involve Russians. Outside of Italy, clostebol is not widely available in Europe, therefore the majority of cases involve Italians.
It remains bewildering, however, that Italy’s athletes are missing the warning sign printed on clostebol creams and sprays in Italy, which clearly states that the product contains ‘doping’ substances.
Clostebol readily available in Italian pharmacies
Injectable Clostebol sold under the brand name Megagrisevit-Mono®.
During the time Dr. Armin Klümper was reportedly supplying clostebol to Bundesliga football clubs the drug was sold under the brand name Megagrisevit-Mono®. Megagrisevit was an injectable and at the time was marketed by the Italian pharmaceutical company Farmitalia.
The drug was initially developed in East Germany, before it was synthesised with other drugs and given to the state’s Olympic athletes, but since the collapse of the Berlin Wall the drug is scarcely available in Europe.
However, in Italy and Brazil, the countries faced with the most clostebol cases, the drug can be bought in pharmacies without a prescription. In Italy, it is most commonly sold in cream form as Trofodermin, and a tube can cost as little as twelve euros. Trofodermin is applied to the skin to treat abrasions, lesions, burns and infected wounds.
If an athlete handles the cream, even in applying it to another individual, then they can risk testing positive. This has been one of the common defences used in Clostebol cases. And in 2020, this defence was assessed in a controlled experiment by scientists at Rome’s anti-doping laboratory and published in the paper, ‘Detection of clostebol in sports: Accidental doping?’. Scientists were able to detect Clostebol in the urine of a subject who had applied Trofodermin cream to another individual.
But it is a sentence within that paper that perforates the argument that only the innocent have befallen to the clostebol curse. “According to Italian law, a visible sign indicating the presence of a substance included in the WADA list of prohibited substances must be present”, reads the paper.
Trofodermin cream, as mandated by law, is sold in a packaging emblazoned with a warning that the product contains a doping agent. This warning would seemingly make any argument of inadvertent use untenable. A warning so problematic that athletes’ lawyers have had to address the warning head-on during disciplinary hearings.
For example, in perhaps the most famous clostebol case, the Norwegian Olympic skier Theresa Yohaug claimed to have tested positive for the steroid after applying Trofodermin cream to treat her sunburn while training in Italy. Yohaug acknowledged she had seen the packaging, but an independent tribunal still accepted she had missed the red warning sign on the box. She was allowed to return for the Beijing Olympics in 2022 and win three gold medals. At those same Olympics the Spanish skater Laura Barquero tested positive for clostebol. To no surprise Barquero is based in Italy.
Clostebol creams, testosterone gels and passing drug tests
(...)
The former head of the Portuguese anti-doping agency, Luis Horta, has now told Honest Sport that he is concerned that sports doctors have begun to use Clostebol creams as they do testosterone gels.
“I think there are some doctors involved in doping strategies that are using this strategy to avoid detection or to have a low risk to be detected”.
(...)
“I suspect that they use creams. Because creams as clostebol, or testosterone by cream or by gel. The detection window it's very, very short. It's sometimes some hours, then it's a good way to dope. With a lower risk to be tested, positive,” Horta told Honest Sport.
Clostebol creams are less potent than testosterone gels, so the performance-enhancing effect is more debatable. However, athletes often inject a stronger anabolic steroid, and then ‘top themselves up’ with weaker creams as competition, and more drug testing, approaches.
“It's like with a bathtub. The shot fills the tub. The cream keeps replenishing it every day to top it off,” a sports medicine doctor once said about testosterone creams.
Horta, who has also worked in Brazilian anti-doping, says he has been involved in at least one doping case in which he had suspected the athlete had been using clostebol as a doping agent.
“In one case the athlete received the standard punishment because he couldn’t explain the case. In another case the athlete had a reduced sanction because he demonstrated that was negligent by applying a cream with clostebol on his dog without using gloves,” said Horta.
There are numerous cases to support Horta’s affirmations. In 2023, the Italian tennis player Stefano Battaglino was banned for four years after he failed to show that he had taken Clostebol inadvertently. And curiously before the 2010 Commonwealth Games, the British shot-putter Mark Edwards tested positive for both clostebol and testosterone. He was not able to prove a lack of intent.
When Honest Sport asked a leading scientist at a WADA-accredited laboratory whether they too suspected that clostebol creams were being abused, they wondered whether it was instead still being used in injection, rather than cream, form.
“My perception is that the use of clostebol cream (e.g. trofodermin), in common therapeutic amounts, is hardly performance-enhancing, but despite the limited availability of other formulations (of clostebol), the misuse by other routes (e.g. injection) cannot be excluded, and differentiating by analytical means between the ways the anabolic agent entered an athlete’s organism is difficult. Hence, disregarding clostebol (as a doping agent) is probably not an option.”
A Carabinieri police officer in Italy told Honest Sport that it is rumoured that clostebol creams may be being used to hide the presence of other more potent doping substances.
“I heard other rumours, i.e. that it can be used to mask another substance. That means to hide positives for other substances that must have been taken advertently, and it interferes with laboratory analysis. Even in this case only science can tell us if it is legends, or if it is reality,” said the source.
Whether by injection, or by gel, or whether used as a masking agent, there is obvious concern surrounding the number of ever-continuing clostebol cases in Italy, and it is the ever-presence of doping doctors in professional sport that raises that concern higher.
(...)
But as the Italian Carabinieri officer told Honest Sport, the sheer number of clostebol cases, at least in Italy, can no longer be considered an anomaly.
“Of course, except in cases of accidental doping, if the use of a substance spreads it’s not just a coincidence.”
It is now the decision of anti-doping authorities to determine how seriously they want to investigate Italy’s problem with a drug once central to the East German, and West German, doping programmes.
This investigation was a long one, so any sharing of the article, with friends or colleagues, would be most welcomed! Thank you, Edmund.
Reposting this to show the packaging the substance comes in.
by ti-amie Jon Wertheim
@jon_wertheim
The Friday before the tournament all top-100 American men met with the USTA chieftains to protest persistent cuts to player development $$…the tournament ends with two Americans in the finals, and two others in semis…#USOpen2024
by ti-amie
by ponchi101 This is not a sport for everybody.
I can't imagine younger generations, with attention spans measured in minutes, sitting through a Borg/McEnroe Wimbledon final, or God forbid, a Lendl/Wilander USO final (which was not thrilling).
We have to accept that.
by ashkor87 yes, and a case could be made for shorter formats, where the match gets over in 60 to 90 minutes.. people do watch football matches after all.. 3 to 4 hours is a bit too much..
by ti-amie
Sounds of Blackness
@its_Burgos_DAY
·
And are you sure you’re not conflating “being a billionaire’s child makes it easier to be a professional tennis player” with “being a billionaire’s child makes it easy to be top 10 pro tennis player"?
Lily Savage
@DameLilySavage
·
True, you still need to work very hard. Is there not a difference however if you watch the challenger level player who are surviving. If they had money for flights, best hotels to sleep in, equipment, coaches etc they would thrive too. Can only go so far for pure love of it?
HJ
@hjadams1
·
Don’t think any reasonable person would disagree. We can still acknowledge that in the U.S. tennis is an extremely expensive sport to play/train at an elite level. Those with infinitely more access to resources will have infinitely higher chances of success/reaching the top.
Since I'm not on Xitter much now I'm not familiar with the people responding to Rennae. As you all know I thought that Navarro was simply a nepo baby playing tennis just because. I don't think that anymore because as Rennae says if you don't put in the work you're not going to get results. One of the reasons I don't hate on Fritz is because he has always put in the work, playing the fall clay court swing for example when most US players avoid the surface like the plague.
I don't think this discussion is going away anytime soon.
by ponchi101 We had a member (still do, but... not around) that spoke very openly about the advantages that Pegula had. Having not only the money when she was growing up but also having the entire Buffalo Bills training and medical staff at her disposal. She was completely sure that Pegula success stemmed, at least partially, from those advantages.
So people are open to such a discussion.
You can also bring up the case of Leo Borg. Needless to say, not only the kid has money (or, his dad does), he has the name to get a considerable number of wild cards offered. Despite that, he is mired in Challengers, and seems to have reached his peak as a player. So, money will carry you up to a point, but no further.
True story.
At the club I played, there was this kid who was a really good player. Good enough for the ATP? We will never know, because when he was 14 and was breaking three sets of strigs per afternoon, his dad got sacked from the company where he worked. And dad had to tell his son that he simply could no longer afford his tennis routine (3 sets of strings per training session, and a pair of shoes every two weeks). So, this kid had to abandon the sport.
If he had had the money, who knows.
And about Stubbs' "I will not hear it!". Who the (expletive) do you think you are to impose what people can and cannot talk about? You are passionate about NOT hearing about it? Maybe somebody else is passionate about talking about it. So, chill.
(Disclosure: I don't like Stubbs. I find her interviews on court to be as boring and snooze-inducing as can be).
by ti-amie
Here's the TL;dr
by ti-amie
by Fastbackss It has to be "concerning" that it moved to the big channel and the rating went down despite having an American in there.
With that preface, a few comments.
- last year's final was at 4pm. This was at 2. On the first Sunday of NFL season that's a relevant difference IMO.
- global numbers are not being considered there.
- the US open had more than enough fan attendance to show the event was a success. Celebrities were "more than normal" according to some reporting I read. Similarly this translated to the number of sponsors and activations associated.
- according to John Skipper, former ESPN CEO, "ratings don't matter." He trumpets this a lot on his podcast, often when talking about playoffs and how they don't look at individual games within a series - they buy so far in advance.
by Fastbackss
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 11, 2024 8:04 pm
We had a member (still do, but... not around) that spoke very openly about the advantages that Pegula had. Having not only the money when she was growing up but also having the entire Buffalo Bills training and medical staff at her disposal. She was completely sure that Pegula success stemmed, at least partially, from those advantages.
So people are open to such a discussion.
You can also bring up the case of Leo Borg. Needless to say, not only the kid has money (or, his dad does), he has the name to get a considerable number of wild cards offered. Despite that, he is mired in Challengers, and seems to have reached his peak as a player. So, money will carry you up to a point, but no further.
True story.
At the club I played, there was this kid who was a really good player. Good enough for the ATP? We will never know, because when he was 14 and was breaking three sets of strigs per afternoon, his dad got sacked from the company where he worked. And dad had to tell his son that he simply could no longer afford his tennis routine (3 sets of strings per training session, and a pair of shoes every two weeks). So, this kid had to abandon the sport.
If he had had the money, who knows.
And about Stubbs' "I will not hear it!". Who the (expletive) do you think you are to impose what people can and cannot talk about? You are passionate about NOT hearing about it? Maybe somebody else is passionate about talking about it. So, chill.
(Disclosure: I don't like Stubbs. I find her interviews on court to be as boring and snooze-inducing as can be).
I remember those discussions. And I may have at the time spoken about my other hobby - car racing.
Having wealth is SO much of an advantage there to get going. But when you get to a certain level it starts to plateau more and more.
In tennis it helps early (unlimited coaching, travel, etc) - but then there has to be the work ethic to get to the next echelon. So I credit these ladies to the hilt and love watching them.
I will give one example - Navarro GRINDED in challenger type events. How she got her ranking up. Does she have advantages with regard to travel, lodging that other players wouldn't. ? Does she have to worry if she gets knocked out in first round not enough to make it to next tourney? No - but that doesn't take away from the fact that she did it. Week after week - pushed herself - etc.
by ponchi101
Fastbackss wrote: ↑Thu Sep 12, 2024 12:40 pm
It has to be "concerning" that it moved to the big channel and the rating went down despite having an American in there.
With that preface, a few comments.
- last year's final was at 4pm. This was at 2. On the first Sunday of NFL season that's a relevant difference IMO.
- global numbers are not being considered there.
- the US open had more than enough fan attendance to show the event was a success. Celebrities were "more than normal" according to some reporting I read. Similarly this translated to the number of sponsors and activations associated.
- according to John Skipper, former ESPN CEO, "ratings don't matter." He trumpets this a lot on his podcast, often when talking about playoffs and how they don't look at individual games within a series - they buy so far in advance.
The USO should be the one tournament to start on Sunday. And then end on Saturday. It goes against the first weekend of NFL in the USA, and that is too much.
Start on Sunday, and play both finals on Saturday. Early one, WTA, late one, ATP (to give them a bit more time to recover).
Because a lot of Joe Schmoe's are not going to tune in to watch Taylor Fritz play when the Titans are playing the Colts (or whatever).
Fastbackss wrote: ↑Thu Sep 12, 2024 12:40 pm
It has to be "concerning" that it moved to the big channel and the rating went down despite having an American in there.
With that preface, a few comments.
- last year's final was at 4pm. This was at 2. On the first Sunday of NFL season that's a relevant difference IMO.
- global numbers are not being considered there.
- the US open had more than enough fan attendance to show the event was a success. Celebrities were "more than normal" according to some reporting I read. Similarly this translated to the number of sponsors and activations associated.
- according to John Skipper, former ESPN CEO, "ratings don't matter." He trumpets this a lot on his podcast, often when talking about playoffs and how they don't look at individual games within a series - they buy so far in advance.
The USO should be the one tournament to start on Sunday. And then end on Saturday. It goes against the first weekend of NFL in the USA, and that is too much.
Start on Sunday, and play both finals on Saturday. Early one, WTA, late one, ATP (to give them a bit more time to recover).
Because a lot of Joe Schmoe's are not going to tune in to watch Taylor Fritz play when the Titans are playing the Colts (or whatever).
I think I agree with this.
by dave g Does anyone have any more information about this?
"In a stunning and deeply unsettling development, the world of tennis has been rocked by the abrupt termination of the commentary careers of renowned figures Chris Fowler, John McEnroe, Chris Evert, and Mary Carillo. "
by ponchi101 I suppose that the idiot cliche of we have to wait and see applies here, but the fact that the article states that they were terminated due to serious violations is scandalous, to say the least.
What sort of behavior could be deemed as such remains to be explained.
Alternative short answer: Holy wow!
by Suliso If true what could they have done? The only thing that comes to mind is something related to betting on tennis.
by skatingfan
dave g wrote: ↑Sat Sep 14, 2024 3:20 am
Does anyone have any more information about this?
"In a stunning and deeply unsettling development, the world of tennis has been rocked by the abrupt termination of the commentary careers of renowned figures Chris Fowler, John McEnroe, Chris Evert, and Mary Carillo. "
Tragic Losses Shake Tennis World: Top 3 Stars Jannik Sinner, Alexander Zverev, and Carlos Alcaraz Involved in….
In a heart-wrenching turn of events, the tennis community is in mourning after a catastrophic accident has claimed the lives of three of its brightest stars. Jannik Sinner, Alexander Zverev, and Carlos Alcaraz, who have captivated fans with their extraordinary talent and dedication to the sport, were involved in a tragic incident that has left the world in shock.
Details surrounding the accident remain sparse, but initial reports suggest that the incident occurred during a routine journey. Emergency services were called to the scene, but despite their efforts, the magnitude of the accident was too great. The loss of these young athletes, all at the peak of their careers, has sent ripples of sorrow across the globe.
Sinner, Zverev, and Alcaraz were not just top-ranked players but also symbols of a new era in tennis. Their combined talent and charisma had drawn immense followings and inspired countless aspiring players. The impact of their loss will be felt deeply within the tennis community and beyond.
As fans, friends, and fellow athletes grapple with this immense tragedy, the tennis world will come together to honor their memories and celebrate their remarkable contributions to the sport.
by ponchi101 My anti virus also says it is not safe.
sportsland.jpg
We may have to be careful.
by ashkor87 Yes
by Suliso Ok, good to hear it was nonsense.
by ti-amie
by ti-amie Grigor cutting to the chase. He's also on the player's council.
Olly
@Olly_Tennis_ Grigor Dimitrov believes that there have been double standards in the handling of the Jannik Sinner ‘doping’ case:
“As I said before, in New York, what struck me the most as strange was how the protocols of this situation were handled.
There are players who experienced completely different processes, with different procedures, and it made me wonder if there were double standards.
Double standards, this is essentially what I say.
We see this in other sports as well. It's not a secret. But the way this case unfolded was very strange to me, even as someone who has been on the ATP tour for many years. We know things from the inside, especially how tournaments are run.”
by Owendonovan Anyone picking up anything on when we'll learn why Stefano Vukov, Rybakina's former coach, got dropped?
by ponchi101 There might not be anything to it. Remember that she was going to drop big news. Turned out, it was a new sponsorship.
I know people like the salacious side of these things. But maybe, just maybe, we could consider the possibility that he was a tough coach, and nothing more than that.
by ti-amie
The interview was translated from Polish:
In your relationship, are you the one who motivates Iga to keep pushing the limits of endurance, for example, by training in a mask to improve fitness?
Iga is so intelligent and independent that we don’t even talk about it. I don’t suggest or hint at anything. She has trainers for that. I have stepped aside. Tomasz Wiktorowski is responsible for tennis issues, Maciej Ryszczuk for general preparation, and Daria Abramowicz for psychological matters. The team works very well, and they themselves make sure that the workload is at the right level.
You and Iga live sports practically all year round. Can you talk about anything other than tennis?
It’s amazing, but even when I come to Iga for tournaments and spend a lot of time with her, we don’t talk about tennis at all. We decided long ago that it’s impossible to live the sport all the time. Even during important tournaments, you have to escape with your thoughts from tennis, because constantly thinking about it would not do any good. The best tennis players are characterized by the fact that they devote one hundred percent of their time to the discipline - at training and during matches, possibly during post-match analysis. They devote the rest of their time to other issues.
Don’t you miss your role as head of your daughter’s team?
I’m glad I’m no longer one. I’ve never been a tennis player, so I’ll never feel it all as much as Iga and others do. Now she is the one who manages the team, makes the key decisions. She’s doing very well.
Was it easy to cut yourself off like that?
I didn’t cut myself off, after all, I’m still with her, I go to many tournaments. However, I try to have my own life and let Iga live and work as she wants. Before coming to the Olympics, I also talked to her about it. She agreed, she wanted me to be by her side during the tournament. I’m happy to be by her side as a parent. It really is more beneficial for everyone when there is a division of roles and competencies. The result is good results on the court. We are first and foremost a family, and family is not work. That’s what Iga has specialists for.
Many parents can’t find themselves in just such a role....
... And belong to the committee of crazy parents. Of course, it wasn’t easy for me at the beginning, but there was a moment when I processed a lot of things and understood what my role was. That, however, was quite early, even before Iga started her career in the WTA series. I’m glad I figured it out so quickly.
Not so long ago, Magda Linette’s dad admitted that he had trouble focusing on his other responsibilities. Do you also experience your daughter’s matches so strongly?
This is something that cannot be taught. When Iga enters the game well, there are indeed easier matches. I will admit that then I can actually relax. The match becomes a bit of such a self-play, and I watch the competition completely at ease. Still, there are some matches where you can see that Iga has difficulties from the beginning and struggles to play her tennis. This hurts me as a parent, but we have learned that losing is part of the sport. You can’t win all the time, especially in tennis.
Isn’t it that with each success it becomes harder and harder to come to terms with Iga’s losing matches?
Maybe, in fact, Iga has accustomed fans to the fact that most matches go quite easily for her. However, one should have a distance from this. It’s not that she has to win every match. I myself explain to her that she has already done so much that now she doesn’t have to prove anything to anyone and should focus on enjoying it.
Can you say that you know your daughter so well that just by her stepping out on the court you are able to tell what kind of match it will be for her?
It doesn’t work that way, because after all, every match has its phases. Tennis is interesting because practically until the end there is a possibility to make up even the biggest losses. However, I can see when the match is under her control, and when the bigger problems actually start.
Many experts say that during the Olympic Games we didn’t watch the real Iga, that she was too tense, nervous. What do you make of this?
The Olympic tournament is special because it is unique and is played only every four years. The extra stress was evident not only from Iga, but also from the other athletes. The favorites didn’t always win and it felt like a completely different burden.
It seemed that until now such issues as too much external pressure had not affected Iga. Why was it different this time?
The pressure to win the gold medal was very high, a lot of articles were written, everyone was already hanging this medal around Iga’s neck before the tournament, and this certainly did not help. Iga is only human. And it’s not like we push a button, the machine will go out on the court, win all the matches and leave Paris with the gold. I saw up close how much this tournament cost her, how stressed she was and how much she cared.
Iga herself said that she cuts herself off from the media for the duration of the tournaments, but you probably read them. How do you react to some of the experts’ opinions, such as the one about not having a plan B for the matches?
People write all sorts of things, but I decided from the beginning that I would not fight windmills. If I wanted to straighten out wrong assumptions, I wouldn’t do anything else, and I don’t have time for that. People judge differently, but it has the common feature that when it goes well, almost everyone praises, and when there is one stumble or loss, immediately the criticism begins. It’s hard to say what this is due to.
I understand that you as a father are hurt by the critical comments against your daughter, but I think you have to admit that this is not the norm, that it is incidental.
My point is not to elevate her on a pedestal, but to treat her like a human being who also needs support and is not an insensitive machine. I wish she could feel appreciated even in her weaker moments. It’s great that there are a lot of fans who give support and positive comments or messages also in more difficult moments.
Do you have any examples of specific allegations that have outraged you the most?
I’m not going to talk about specifics, because it’s pointless. However, the point is that many “experts” speak up, although they have absolutely no idea about the factors that affect performance and career or tennis development. They make theses that are often not supported by reality. This does not lead to anything, but creates chaos. However, I realize that I can’t fix the world by myself.
Do you wonder how long Iga’s dominance can continue? Are you afraid of a real crisis?
I’m not afraid of that at all, because it’s clear that there will come a moment when she trains or plays worse. Or simply the motivation will be less. This is part of life and sport. In her case, it’s all a matter of intrinsic motivation. If she drops for various reasons, it is clear that the ranking position will also drop. However, I don’t think it will be a drama. This is the natural course of things, after all, life is not a straight line going upwards only.
Do you think Iga is ready for something like this? Are you preparing for such a moment?
We don’t talk about it. The key is for Iga to continue wanting to do what she likes. So that after one tournament she still feels like going to the next one and competing. I assume that she is young enough and motivated enough to achieve more success that she treats her career as a great adventure. We are enjoying it all and doing everything we can to help her seize the moment.
In the past, there were times when Iga called you and had moments of doubt about the sense of what she was doing?
There were no such radical cases, but Iga pays attention to the WTA calendar, which forces players to constantly move and play with great frequency. After all, more and more tournaments are compulsory, and tournaments such as the Olympic Games have little room in the calendar, as this edition showed - they require an unfavorable change of surface twice. Such a system will lead to a decrease in the quality and level of play of the players. Already there are a lot of injuries, injuries or simple fatigue. All this causes the rank of the tournaments to drop. Fortunately, Iga is physically well-prepared and for the time being is able to manage the load properly, but it is a very demanding process.
Interviewed by Mateusz Puka, journalist at WP SportoweFakty
by ponchi101 Sounds like a balanced parent. The good kind.
by ti-amie This is making the rounds of Tennis Twitter but as you see there are questions about its veracity.
TS
@tennisbagz
·
Sep 24
If true, very glad to hear that her parents stood firmly with her and helped her break out of the abusive environment. Hope she heals fast
by Owendonovan How can I say abusive without saying abusive. ^
by skatingfan So basically all the criticism that had been leveled at Vukov two years ago now being acknowledged more broadly.
by Owendonovan
skatingfan wrote: ↑Thu Sep 26, 2024 12:51 am
So basically all the criticism that had been leveled at Vukov two years ago now being acknowledged more broadly.
How everyone (the adults) around them didn't interject strongly enough always baffles me. This will happen again, and again.
by ponchi101 But, what is the source of the info?
by Owendonovan What we've all seen and heard.
by ashkor87 This is precisely what we all suspected, and feared..
Me and your daughter @ti-amie
by mmmm8
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 26, 2024 2:21 am
But, what is the source of the info?
I don't know what Tatarkova's relationship with Rybakina is but she (Tatrkova) is very close with a lot of Russian speaking players, I would trust this to a decent extent, even if not first-hand.
by Owendonovan There's this specific lack of shame of abusive behavior in public all the abusive types possess.
by ashkor87 Yes, part of the personality of psychopaths
by mmmm8
Owendonovan wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2024 2:58 am
There's this specific lack of shame of abusive behavior in public all the abusive types possess.
I don't think "all" abusive types possess this. Plenty of people I'd known who turned out to be verbally and emotionally abusive were sweethearts in public.
by Owendonovan Who do you all think is behind really grinding the ax on Sinner and his positive tests? Players Union, A National federation, someone high up in the ATP who feels embarassed?
by ti-amie
by ti-amie Releases 27 Sep 2024
WADA statement on New York Times article
The World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) notes today’s New York Times article alleging that anti -doping data related to athletes going to the Paris 2024 Olympic and Paralympic Games may not have been properly reviewed by WADA prior to the Games.
Despite WADA having provided the New York Times with the facts, the article contains allegations that are simply wrong. They stem from leaked information connected to an internal technical WADA meeting held in May 2024, between the Agency’s Legal Affairs and IT Departments, concerning data being migrated from an old Results Management system [called LRM] into a new system [called RMC]. The May meeting was held to discuss the difficulties with the migration and issues that the Legal Affairs Department was having in navigating the RMC and finding the data within it.
Contrary to what the New York Times alleges, the technical challenges faced by this data migration did not have any negative impact whatsoever on the Paris 2024 Olympic or Paralympic Games. The complete data was accessible at all times and all data related to athletes going to Paris were properly reviewed by WADA.
All data was still up to date and housed within the old system, LRM, as well as in the Anti-Doping Administration Management System [ADAMS]. For the Paris 2024 Olympic and Paralympic Games, using a combination of RMC, LRM and ADAMS, all the data from those athletes on the Olympic and Paralympic Games shortlists were thoroughly reviewed. Both the LRM and RMC are internal systems designed to assist Legal Affairs in its Results Management work – the data available in those systems come from ADAMS and also include all information received from Results Management Authorities by Legal Affairs.
As was the situation with the New York Time’s reporting on the Chinese swimming cases, instead of following the facts, it has once again opted to be misled by sources with questionable motives as part of a defamation campaign against WADA.
Owendonovan wrote: ↑Sat Sep 28, 2024 4:48 pm
Who do you all think is behind really grinding the ax on Sinner and his positive tests? Players Union, A National federation, someone high up in the ATP who feels embarassed?
Listen, I know IATA here. And I am replying in half jest. But the weird thing is that this agency is saying "nothing happened" when in the past it has come down on players with the full weight of the rules-book.
That is what has some people upset. We know Sinner did not take any drugs for enhancement. But the whole thing was handled very poorly.
With the last part being nothing more than my opinion.
by skatingfan The ITIA might be changing their approach given the appeals of cases like Simona Halep. If CAS is going to overturn the suspension there's no point giving it in the first place.
by ponchi101
skatingfan wrote: ↑Sat Sep 28, 2024 11:32 pm
The IATA might be changing their approach given the appeals of cases like Simona Halep. If CAS is going to overturn the suspension there's no point giving it in the first place.
I meant: IATA
I Am The A*******
And yes, I can always change my approach
by skatingfan
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 28, 2024 11:40 pm
I meant: IATA
I Am The A*******
And yes, I can always change my approach
Oops
by ashkor87 And does the game of tennis benefit by having Sinner suspended for a year or two?
by Owendonovan Also, WADA? I don't consider their word worth too much,
by ponchi101
Owendonovan wrote: ↑Sun Sep 29, 2024 1:39 am
Also, WADA? I don't consider their word worth too much,
There you go. It is an organization with a credibility issue. And, if now they seem to NOT be acting in accordance with their own rules, it will get worse.
Also (@Ashkor). The world will not benefit from having Sinner suspended for two years. and it will not suffer either. If the decisions were to be made on who would benefit, then Roger and Rafa could have shown on court with the syringe still stuck in their arms and nothing would have been done to them because "who would benefit by suspending the two mega stars for two years".
They did suspend Sharapova for two years (reduced to 15 months) and the world of tennis kept going. And when she came back she was virtually unable to win a third set, so her opponents benefited.
by mmmm8
Owendonovan wrote: ↑Sat Sep 28, 2024 4:48 pm
Who do you all think is behind really grinding the ax on Sinner and his positive tests? Players Union, A National federation, someone high up in the ATP who feels embarassed?
As Ponchi alluded, it's the inconsistency vs past decisions. I think a lot of top (and former top) players probably have things to say behind closed doors.
by ti-amie
by ponchi101 And, as I said, let's give people some breathing space.
So terribly fast to try to bring somebody down.
by ashkor87
Probably a sad sad story, Jelena Dokic, releases nov 7
by ponchi101 She was so promising. I remember her taking Hingis down at Wimbledon. She just demolished Martina.
by skatingfan Roddick interviewing PTPA Leadership - Amar Nassad and Vasek Pospisil
Andy does not hold back.
Owendonovan wrote: ↑Sun Sep 29, 2024 1:39 am
Also, WADA? I don't consider their word worth too much,
There you go. It is an organization with a credibility issue. And, if now they seem to NOT be acting in accordance with their own rules, it will get worse.
Also (@Ashkor). The world will not benefit from having Sinner suspended for two years. and it will not suffer either. If the decisions were to be made on who would benefit, then Roger and Rafa could have shown on court with the syringe still stuck in their arms and nothing would have been done to them because "who would benefit by suspending the two mega stars for two years".
They did suspend Sharapova for two years (reduced to 15 months) and the world of tennis kept going. And when she came back she was virtually unable to win a third set, so her opponents benefited.
I don't think there is any higher interest than the interest of tennis itself.
by mmmm8
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 10:39 pm
And, as I said, let's give people some breathing space.
So terribly fast to try to bring somebody down.
After that story with the Spanish basketball (volleyball?) team a few years ago, she has to be pretty dumb/ignorant not to pick up on this being an issue. That and the initial two "apologies" where she said she has Asian friends and "they're the kindest."
I think it's more stupid than malicious, but not a good look.
by ti-amieFemale tennis players offered just 20 per cent of assets in planned merger with men’s tour
Exclusive: Beyond the headline figure, the small print of the merger may be more positive for WTA with a crucial ‘synergies’ clause
Tennis’s elite tours – the ATP and the WTA – are preparing to vote on a commercial merger that would start with assets being split 80 per cent towards the men and 20 per cent towards the women.
While an 80-20 split might represent poor optics for a sport with aspirations towards equality, it also reflects commercial reality. Filed accounts from 2022 show that the WTA’s income for that year stood at a mere £90 million to the ATP’s £238 million.
Once you look beyond the headline figure, however, the small print may be more positive for the women. A crucial “synergies” clause could work in the WTA’s favour – and thus help bring the tours together in what would be the first step towards a less fragmented sport.
While preparing for board votes at the tours’ end-of-year finals – in Turin and Riyadh respectively – chairmen Andrea Gaudenzi and Steve Simon will emphasise that the 80-20 figure is only a starting point, applying to existing assets and projected growth.
Should the merger achieve its aim, which is to bring in extra profit to both tours that they wouldn’t expect to earn on their own, then the synergy windfall would be split 50-50.
To take an example, if the tours’ joint income from a particular area of sponsorship had been forecast to reach £100,000, but the appeal of a mixed-gender package had helped them bring in £110,000 instead, then the synergy income of £10,000 would be split into £5,000 for each party.
Merger could be victory for WTA
And with numerous potential savings on offer through reducing duplication in the two tours’ marketing and commercial departments, some sort of synergy income should be achievable within the first couple of years.
As one insider told Telegraph Sport, “The WTA would be saving on agency fees and head counts and there’s a feeling that this could be a win for them.”
But another source warned that the devil would be in the detail. “If you’re setting up what is known as a ‘ratchet’ deal in the finance world, where revenues are split in different proportions depending on how big they are, then a lot depends on where you put the threshold. If the WTA allow the projected growth figures to be set at a high level, they’ll struggle to reach that 50-50 stage.”
All these details will need to be considered and approved by a number of different stakeholders: not just the ATP board, for instance, but the ATP Masters 1000 events as well.
On the women’s side, one key voice will be that of CVC – the private equity firm which bought a 20 per cent stake in the commercial operations of the WTA two years ago.
Even if all the boards green-light the merger, however, the full benefit would not be felt until the WTA and ATP are able to combine their TV and data rights. The WTA have signed deals with Stats Perform that expire in 2026 for live broadcast and 2029 for data, and these will tie their hands in the short term.
Perhaps the most significant advantage of this deal is that it would open up the possibility of future collaboration with the majors. The united commercial entity would be well placed to discuss running a unified tour with the slams, perhaps something similar to the proposed “Premium Tour” that was in the offing earlier this season.
The “Premium Tour” movement has gone very quiet of late, but the essential concept could be revitalised by an ATP-WTA commercial merger. Were the new body to sit down with the four majors, you would be talking about apples and apples – in the sense that both parties would be representing women as well as men – for the first time in tennis history.
by mmmm8 How are they going to calculate the "synergy windfall"? How are they calculating "projected growth"? I'd love to see the math.
by ponchi101
mmmm8 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 4:33 pm
How are they going to calculate the "synergy windfall"? How are they calculating "projected growth"? I'd love to see the math.
From what I am seeing: Anything above the CURRENT sum of the income for both tours will be deemed synergy windfall, if both tours grow in income.
I can't figure out projected growth, though.
mmmm8 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 4:33 pm
How are they going to calculate the "synergy windfall"? How are they calculating "projected growth"? I'd love to see the math.
From what I am seeing: Anything above the CURRENT sum of the income for both tours will be deemed synergy windfall, if both tours grow in income.
I can't figure out projected growth, though.
It sounded like the windfall, in the future is what's above the "projected" not the current income. So, if they expect 15% higher profits from an activity in next years iteration of an event as each tour, but they get 17% together, the 2% is the windfall, not the 17%
by ti-amie
Of course someone took screen shots of what she deleted.
by ti-amie She needs a social media manager.
by ti-amieEndeavor Explores Potential Sale of Event Assets
Review includes Miami Open and Madrid Open tennis tournaments and Frieze, the world’s leading platform for modern and contemporary art
October 24, 2024 12:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time
BEVERLY HILLS, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Endeavor Group Holdings, Inc. (NYSE: EDR) (“Endeavor” or the “Company”), a global sports and entertainment company, today announced that it has commenced a review and potential sale of certain events within its IMG portfolio, including but not limited to the Miami Open and Madrid Open, two legendary ATP Masters 1000 and WTA 1000 tennis tournaments, and Frieze, the world’s leading platform for modern and contemporary art.
This review follows the announcement in April 2024 of Silver Lake’s agreement to take Endeavor private, which includes provisions related to the potential sale of certain businesses, excluding premium sports and entertainment company TKO Group Holdings and entertainment agency WME.
“Endeavor’s portfolio includes iconic, global, and must-attend events spanning sports, entertainment, and the arts,” said Mark Shapiro, President and Chief Operating Officer, Endeavor. “As part of Endeavor, Frieze and the Miami and Madrid Open tournaments have each grown significantly, from Frieze launching successful fairs in Los Angeles and Seoul to the Miami and Madrid Opens setting year-over-year attendance and sponsorship records. We are proud of this progress and confident that these unique assets are well-positioned for success in the future.”
Endeavor has retained The Raine Group to assist with the exploratory process.
No definitive timetable has been set for completion of this review process, and there is no assurance that the review will result in any specific action. Endeavor does not intend to comment further regarding the potential sale of its event assets as described herein unless and until it determines that further disclosure is necessary or advisable.
About Endeavor
Endeavor (NYSE: EDR) is a global sports and entertainment company, home to many of the world’s most dynamic and engaging storytellers, brands, live events, and experiences. The Endeavor network specializes in talent representation through entertainment agency WME; sports operations and advisory, event management, media production and distribution, and brand licensing through IMG; live event experiences and hospitality through On Location; full-service marketing through global cultural marketing agency 160over90; and sports data and technology through OpenBet. Endeavor is also the majority owner of TKO Group Holdings (NYSE: TKO), a premium sports and entertainment company comprising UFC and WWE.
About the Miami Open
The 2025 Miami Open will be played March 16 – March 30 at Hard Rock Stadium. The 15-day combined event is owned and operated by IMG. The Miami Open is one of nine ATP Masters 1000 Series events on the ATP calendar, a WTA 1000 event on the WTA calendar, and features the top men’s and women’s tennis players in the world. The tournament is widely regarded as the most glamorous on the ATP and WTA calendars because of Miami’s unique personality, thriving nightlife, five-star hotels and restaurants, beautiful weather and beaches, and celebrity appeal, as well as its close proximity to both Fort Lauderdale and West Palm Beach. For more information, visit MiamiOpen.com.
About the Madrid Open
The Madrid Open is an ATP Masters 1000 and WTA 1000 tournament that will hold its 23rd edition from April 21 – May 4, 2025, in Madrid, Spain. What began as an indoor Masters 1000 event in 2002 has grown in recent years to become one of the biggest combined (ATP and WTA) tournaments in the world of tennis. After moving to the Caja Mágica in 2009, adding the women’s competition and moving to clay courts in spring, the Mutua Madrid Open has become a must-see event for tennis fans around the world. Currently recognised as one of Spain’s biggest sports events, the tournament welcomed a record 380,073 fans in 2024 and is broadcast in more than 180 countries every year. The two-week combined event is owned and operated by IMG. For more information, visit MutuaMadridOpen.com.
About Frieze
Frieze is a leading global contemporary art organisation, renowned for its art fairs, publications and digital presence. Founded in 1991 with the launch of frieze magazine, the brand has grown to encompass seven of the most significant art fairs worldwide in cities including Chicago, London, Los Angeles, New York and Seoul. These events attract leading artists, galleries and collectors, fostering innovative dialogues and practices within the art community. Frieze magazine continues to set the benchmark for insightful art criticism and commentary, while frieze.com serves as a vital online resource. Committed to expanding the reach and understanding of contemporary art, Frieze also hosts year-round curated programs and associated initiatives, such as No.9 Cork Street and Frieze 91, that enrich the cultural landscape.
With a dedicated team passionate about the arts, Frieze remains at the forefront of artistic exploration and cultural discourse, connecting diverse audiences with groundbreaking artists and their work. Frieze is part of the IMG network. For more information, visit frieze.com.
Forward-Looking Statements
This press release contains forward-looking statements within the meaning of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. Endeavor intends such forward-looking statements to be covered by the safe harbor provisions for forward-looking statements contained in Section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933, as amended, and Section 21E of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934, as amended. All statements in this press release that do not relate to matters of historical fact should be considered forward-looking statements, including the potential sale of Endeavor’s event assets described herein. The words “believe,” “may,” “will,” “estimate,” “potential,” “continue,” “anticipate,” “intend,” “expect,” “could,” “would,” “project,” “plan,” “target,” and similar expressions are intended to identify forward-looking statements, though not all forward-looking statements use these words or expressions. These forward-looking statements are based on management’s current expectations. These statements are neither promises nor guarantees and involve known and unknown risks, uncertainties and other important factors that may cause actual results, performance or achievements to be materially different from what is expressed or implied by the forward-looking statements, including, but not limited to important factors discussed in Part I, Item 1A “Risk Factors” in Endeavor’s Annual Report on Form 10-K for the fiscal year ended December 31, 2023, as any such factors may be updated from time to time in the Company’s other filings with the SEC, including, without limitation, the Company’s Quarterly Report on Form 10-Q for the quarterly period ended June 30, 2024, accessible on the SEC’s website at www.sec.gov and Endeavor’s Investor Relations site at investor.endeavorco.com. Forward-looking statements speak only as of the date they are made and, except as may be required under applicable law, Endeavor undertakes no obligation to update or revise any forward-looking statements, whether as a result of new information, future events or otherwise.
Website Disclosure
Investors and others should note that Endeavor announces material financial and operational information to its investors using press releases, SEC filings and public conference calls and webcasts, as well as its Investor Relations site at investor.endeavorco.com. Endeavor may also use its website as a distribution channel of material Company information. In addition, you may automatically receive email alerts and other information about Endeavor when you enroll your email address by visiting the “Investor Email Alerts” option under the Resources tab on investor.endeavorco.com.
by mmmm8 I hadn't realized until I looked into these news that they'd already sold off IMG Academy
by ponchi101
mmmm8 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 28, 2024 12:25 pm
I hadn't realized until I looked into these news that they'd already sold off IMG Academy
The one truly genius thing from Bolletieri. The understanding that sports academies could be a big business.
He was very good at a lot of other things, but this was super smart.
by Owendonovan "synergy" corporate speak used as filler.
by ti-amie
Owendonovan wrote: ↑Mon Oct 28, 2024 6:02 pm
"synergy" corporate speak used as filler.
by skatingfan
by ponchi101 The Rafa Nadal tennis resort. An academy is a place where you go to suffer. No such thing there.
And sponsored by Movistar, too. To those that don't know, it is the largest Spanish comms operator in the world. So they must have invested a lot of money.
Would like to spend a week there.
by Owendonovan Might want to get some drainage, unless running in water is part of their conditioning model.
by ponchi101
Owendonovan wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2024 6:23 pm
Might want to get some drainage, unless running in water is part of their conditioning model.
The more water, the heavier that court. And you know Rafa loves a slow clay court.
by ti-amie
by ponchi101 I think that is fair.
He should be suspended too, though. But, by now, since they never suspended Kyrgios or Zverev or Medvedev, it would have to be a suspended suspension.
by JTContinental I suspended an artist from the gallery yesterday for dropping a bunch of F words on me. I should have also fined him $120,000.
by skatingfan
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2024 10:52 pm
I think that is fair.
He should be suspended too, though. But, by now, since they never suspended Kyrgios or Zverev or Medvedev, it would have to be a suspended suspension.
Kyrgios did get an 8-week suspension for lack of effort a few years ago - hard to know how to compare that behaviour to Tiafoe's behaviour.
ponchi101 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2024 10:52 pm
I think that is fair.
He should be suspended too, though. But, by now, since they never suspended Kyrgios or Zverev or Medvedev, it would have to be a suspended suspension.
Kyrgios did get an 8-week suspension for lack of effort a few years ago - hard to know how to compare that behaviour to Tiafoe's behaviour.
I meant the occasion in which he told Stan that Kokkinakis had been "dating" Donna Vecic, who was Stan's GF at the time.
He was, let's say, less polite than what I am writing here.
And maybe I am way off base. That's my interpretation.
I hope it will be useful to you.
players support it”.
:verified_legacy: 
Tomáš Petera head organizator of WTA 500 in Ostrava just said that in 2024 there will be major change in tournaments. He said that top 30 will not be able to play WTA 250! And those tournaments will have to upgrade their licence which is super expensive so we may lost them.
. Not sure where the 
talent is these days. 
The Bin Salmon Tour is imminent. Newport ATP license is up for sale, Saudis will buy it, and Gaudenzi will move to more advantageous date.induction will remain, just no tournament
player Konstantin Koltsov passed away at the age of 42. 
player Konstantin Koltsov passed away at the age of 42. 
☮ @YpsiGal ·14m
Grigor Dimitrov believes that there have been double standards in the handling of the Jannik Sinner ‘doping’ case:
